13:59:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:59:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-irc
13:59:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
13:59:54 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:59:54 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:00:08 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:00:12 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:00:38 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0010
14:00:40 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
14:00:48 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0010
14:00:57 <alessio> hallo
14:01:31 <Steven> hi
14:02:12 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
14:02:18 <Zakim> +??P24
14:02:29 <yamx> Zakim ??P24 is yamx
14:03:12 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:03:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:03:17 <Zakim> +??P27
14:03:23 <Steven> zakim, ??P24 is yamx
14:03:23 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:03:34 <alessio> Zakim ??P27 is Alessio
14:03:59 <Steven> zakim, drop steven
14:03:59 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not see a party named 'steven'
14:04:01 <Rich> Rich has joined #xhtml
14:04:05 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:04:05 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:04:07 <Zakim> +Steven
14:04:13 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:04:35 <Steven> zakim, [ is Rich
14:04:35 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
14:04:57 <alessio> zakim, ??P27 is Alessio
14:04:57 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:07:58 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:08:17 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:08:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:08:52 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
14:09:12 <markbirbeck> zakim, who is here?
14:09:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see yamx, Steven, Alessio, Rich, markbirbeck
14:09:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, Rich, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, yamx, Tina, Steven, Lachy, krijnh
14:10:25 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:10:41 <Zakim> + +046708aaaa
14:10:52 <Tina> Zakim, aaa is Tina
14:10:53 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
14:11:08 <Tina> Zakim, 8aaa is Tina
14:11:08 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '8aaa'
14:11:40 <Tina> Zakim, ++46708aaa is Tina
14:11:40 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '++46708aaa'
14:11:51 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:11:51 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
14:12:07 <Steven> zakim, +4 is Tina
14:12:07 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '+4'
14:12:54 <alessio> Zakim, +46708aaa is Tina
14:12:54 <Zakim> sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '+46708aaa'
14:13:15 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:13:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see yamx, Steven, Alessio, Rich, markbirbeck, McCarron, +046708aabb
14:13:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, Rich, alessio, Zakim, RRSAgent, yamx, Tina, Steven, Lachy, krijnh
14:13:24 <Tina> My phone connection is pretty bad; sorry about that. Minutes would be poor quality.
14:13:31 <Tina> Zakim, mute me
14:13:31 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:13:54 <Steven> zakim, 46 is Tina
14:13:54 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '46'
14:14:04 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:14:10 <Steven> Topic: Announcements
14:14:16 <alessio> zakim, +046708aabb is Tina
14:14:16 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
14:14:21 <Zakim> -McCarron
14:14:30 <Tina> Zakim, mute me
14:14:30 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
14:14:42 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:14:59 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to make a reg page for Boston FtF
14:15:50 <Steven> Steven: Note we are meeting WEed/Thu/Fri
14:16:27 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to ensure there is a chair for next week
14:16:37 <Steven> Steven: I can't be here next week, at a W3C.de day
14:17:02 <Steven> Topic: Do not deprecate the profile attribute (request from GRDDL WG) 
14:17:02 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Sep/0008
14:19:25 <Steven> Steven: THe GRDDL people would rather we kept @profile
14:19:47 <Steven> ... but the problem is that even if we kept it, people would still be able to use rel="profile"
14:20:02 <Steven> Shane: I'm not willing to give up rel="profile"; that would be a mistake
14:20:30 <Steven> ... there is also a problem is they are coopting @profile
14:21:28 <Steven> Steven: Do the different uses, like microformats and GRDDL bite each other?
14:21:40 <Steven> ... can they work in combination?
14:22:17 <Steven> Mark: I think they have their own URL in the profile attribute as one of the urls
14:22:30 <Steven> ... and then seeing that they know they need to process the document
14:22:59 <Steven> ... then they use rels (maybe) to discover the transformation
14:23:25 <Steven> Mark: They use namespaces
14:23:44 <Steven> ... there's no use of profile at all in the example I'm looking at
14:23:47 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xml
14:24:09 <Steven> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" 
14:24:09 <Steven>       xmlns:grddl='http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#' 
14:24:09 <Steven>       grddl:transformation="glean_title.xsl 
14:24:09 <Steven>                http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/getAuthor.xsl"
14:24:09 <Steven>  >
14:24:10 <Steven> <head>
14:25:02 <Steven> (2. Adding GRDDL to well-formed XML)
14:25:18 <Steven> Mark: It just happens that they used xhtml for their xml
14:25:33 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xhtml
14:25:43 <Steven> 4. Using GRDDL with valid XHTML
14:25:57 <Steven> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
14:25:57 <Steven>   <head profile="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view">
14:26:08 <Steven>  <link rel="transformation"
14:26:08 <Steven>        href="http://www.w3.org/2000/06/dc-extract/dc-extract.xsl" />
14:27:05 <Steven> SHane: If we were nice, we would add 'transformation' to our list of rels
14:27:08 <Steven> Steven: Good idea
14:27:25 <Steven> ... and @grddly:transformation to the html element
14:29:07 <Steven> Steven: WHy not use the grddl namespace declaration to detext a grddl document?
14:29:39 <Steven> Mark: At the least we should be saying that profile is too flaky
14:30:01 <Steven> ... it doesn't give you the connection between the profile url and the rel values
14:30:12 <Steven> ... it doesn't give you anything actually
14:30:24 <Steven> Shane: We ought to work with them to produce a rel="grddl"
14:30:37 <Steven> s/ought/ought to have/
14:30:46 <Steven> Shane: But it is already a Rec
14:31:01 <Steven> Mark: Are we going to preserve this in XHTML2
14:31:10 <Steven> ... they argue yes for backwards compatibility
14:31:17 <Steven> ... but it is not an issue really
14:31:31 <Steven> SHane: Let me play devil's advocate
14:31:50 <Steven> ... they want the same processor to work on HTML and XHTML2
14:31:58 <Steven> s/SHane/Shane/G
14:32:18 <Steven> Mark: But other document types don't have the profile attribute
14:32:21 <Steven> ... why should we?
14:32:41 <Steven> ... We should use the other technique in XHTML2
14:33:19 <Steven> ... We shoukld reply "Given you have another mechanism, why should we use the legacy mechanism, which is falky anyway?"
14:33:54 <Steven> Shane: Say it in a different way. "Hey, we are generic XML, and we'll even build a GRDDL module for you, so you can use the generic mechanism"
14:34:09 <Steven> Mark: We need to think about this for RDFa too
14:34:42 <Steven> Shane: Since rdfa takes a CURIE in rel, it just works
14:34:59 <Steven> ... you have to devclare the GRDDL namespace, but we do that anyway
14:35:03 <Steven> s/we/they/
14:35:34 <Steven> Mark: And in XHTML+RDFa they should be using the generic method too
14:35:46 <Steven> ... rel="grddl:transformation"
14:37:05 <Steven> Steven: But isn't their pain point that they want to be able to identify a GRDDLE doc from the root, or otherwsie head element
14:37:18 <Steven> Shane: THe GRDDL namespace should be good enough for them
14:37:26 <Steven> s/THe/The/G
14:37:29 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:37:33 <Zakim> -McCarron
14:38:02 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to GRDDL people about techniques for identifying GRDDL docs
14:38:23 <Steven> Missing element declarations from XHTML Modularization 1.1
14:38:27 <Steven> Topic: Missing element declarations from XHTML Modularization 1.1
14:38:33 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0029
14:38:35 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
14:39:41 <Steven> Shane: These are defined as far as I know. Let me check
14:39:52 <Steven> ... Yes, in the frame module
14:40:27 <Steven> Mark: Maybe they are missing in the schema, but not in the spec
14:40:33 <Steven> Shane: Oh, he's right
14:40:50 <Steven> ... we need to reissue ruby
14:40:53 <Steven> ... oh wait
14:40:57 <Steven> ... they are in here too
14:41:20 <Steven> ... oh, he maybe right
14:41:36 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to fix missing elements in M12N
14:41:46 <Steven> ACTION: SHane to reply to ht
14:42:07 <Steven> ACTION: Group to reissue Ruby with schema additions
14:42:32 <Steven> Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1 DTD declares hr but it cannot be included in any element 
14:42:32 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0030
14:43:40 <Steven> Steven: The abstract says that the poresentation module is included
14:43:55 <Steven> Shane: ANd we list hr too
14:44:43 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
14:44:49 <Steven> <!ENTITY % InlPres.class 
14:44:49 <Steven>      "| %tt.qname; | %i.qname; | %b.qname; | %big.qname;
14:44:49 <Steven>       | %small.qname; | %sub.qname; | %sup.qname;" >
14:44:50 <ShaneM> b, big, hr, i, small, sub, sup, tt 
14:46:18 <Steven> Shane: I'll link it in
14:46:28 <Steven> Steven: This will have to be a CR comment
14:46:40 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to link hr into Basic 1.1
14:46:57 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to hr comment, and make it a CR comment
14:47:33 <Steven> Steven: Didn't you have a testfest revently Yam?
14:48:06 <Steven> Yam: Starting tomorrow
14:48:51 <Steven> ... and November in Slovenia
14:48:58 <Steven> ... but I'll check
14:49:26 <Steven> Topic: Error in http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801 
14:49:26 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0031
14:49:58 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-xhtml1-20020801/#h-4.8
14:51:58 <markbirbeck> Going back to GRDDL, the spec says "This method [using @profile] is suitable for use with valid XHTML documents which are constrained by an XML DTD." In other words they are saying that this is _not_ the preferred method.
14:52:07 <markbirbeck> o it seems legitimate to me to say that we feel no need to try to support the @profile technique, in situations where the @xmlns technique is supported.
14:52:07 <Steven> Shane: Well, this is a technique to get round bugs in browsers
14:52:16 <Steven> ... we shouldn't document that
14:52:22 <markbirbeck> s/o it/So it/
14:52:23 <Steven> ... we use this technique too
14:52:30 <Steven> ... but it shouldn't be part of a spec
14:52:39 <yamx> OMA test fest 20 was from Sep 7 to Sep 14, so I will check the test reports.
14:53:06 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to script+cdata mail, saying we don't want to document it
14:53:49 <Steven> Topic: GRDDL again
14:54:13 <Steven> Mark: THeir doc does seem to say that the rpofile technique is a fallback when the XML technique isn't suitable
14:54:20 <Steven> ... so that backs up our position
14:54:26 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:54:34 <ShaneM> s/rpofile/profile/ 
14:54:35 <markbirbeck> For example: "To accomodate the DTD-based syntax of XHTML[XHTML], which precludes using attributes from foreign namespaces, we use http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view as a metadata profile (cf. section 7.4.4.3 Meta data profiles of [HTML4])."
14:55:11 <Steven> Topic: role
14:55:45 <Steven> Steven: I have requested a loast call publication
14:55:53 <Steven> ... awaiting a reply about a suitable date
14:56:04 <Steven> ... when that comes in, we can publish with that date
14:57:05 <Steven> Topic: Modularization
14:57:31 <Steven> Steven: We have gone through last call, so we should move to CR with this
14:57:40 <Steven> ... do we have a DoC?
14:57:57 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to ensure we have a M12N DoC
14:58:05 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to take M12N to CR
14:59:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:59:17 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
14:59:18 <Zakim> -Rich
14:59:20 <Zakim> -yamx
14:59:21 <Zakim> -Steven
14:59:22 <Steven> ADJOURN
14:59:22 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:59:22 <Zakim> -Tina
14:59:24 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:59:25 <Zakim> Attendees were yamx, Steven, [IBM], Rich, Alessio, markbirbeck, McCarron, +046708aaaa, Tina, ShaneM
14:59:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
14:59:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
14:59:56 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:00:50 <alessio_> alessio_ has joined #xhtml
15:06:34 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #xhtml
15:11:29 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aadd
15:11:29 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named 'aadd'
15:28:25 <Rich> Rich has left #xhtml
17:31:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml