IRC log of html-wg on 2007-09-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

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08:26:34 [zcorpan_]
so what happens with publishing?
08:26:51 [zcorpan_]
i thought we were supposed to publish the spec in august
08:27:42 [sbuluf]
chris wilson's review is still due, right? perhaps that?
08:29:17 [Lachy]
zcorpan_, I updated update-markers.php with some code to commit changes to the DB.
08:29:52 [Lachy]
it's not finished yet, it still needs a better UI for confirming changes and the code may need a little cleaning up
08:30:11 [zcorpan_]
Lachy: great!
08:30:18 [Lachy]
you can test it out http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate.html
08:30:46 [Lachy]
that test just submits directly to the confirmation script, bypassing the confirmation email
08:31:30 [zcorpan_]
"The changes have been confirmed,"
08:31:33 [zcorpan_]
ok
08:31:49 [Lachy]
check this to see that the changes were made http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate-web-apps.php
08:32:48 [zcorpan_]
yep
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08:44:45 [Hixie]
we were supposed to publish in june
08:45:36 [zcorpan_]
Hixie: yeah, i meant last i heard
08:46:11 [Hixie]
ah
08:46:34 [Hixie]
(not that i think we need to publish anything)
08:46:53 [Hixie]
(but if we want to publish something, it seems like it would be trivial to find something to publish and just put it out there)
08:50:07 [sbuluf]
i think chris wilson's review might be the cause
08:50:25 [Hixie]
why?
08:50:36 [Hixie]
it's not like i'm going to change the spec as soon as we get his review
08:50:45 [Hixie]
it'll hit the queue just like everyone else's feedback
08:51:06 [Hixie]
(though it sure will be nice to finally have a review from microsoft)
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13:06:52 [emeriste]
I have no special knowledge of html and I am really grateful that all of you work on making it better.
13:08:17 [emeriste]
I want to promote a certain idea although I may not have the words to express it perfectly. You can understand the spirit of what I mean --- I want html to make typesetting mathematics as easy as putting a table on your page. Something like <math> (some sort of math syntax) </math> and it works.
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13:17:58 [hsivonen]
emeriste: transferring MathML inside text/html is an open issue
13:19:55 [emeriste]
hsivonen - By open issue you mean it's something that you are considering?
13:20:54 [hsivonen]
emeriste: yes. it has been proposed but not rejected.
13:20:57 [emeriste]
anne -- I was talking to someone else in here about it few days ago, but I don't see them here now.
13:21:39 [hsivonen]
emeriste: lack of existing MathML buy-in from non-Mozilla vendors is a complicating factor considering getting two independent and interoperable implementations
13:21:46 [emeriste]
hsivonen -- I cant think of anything more important. Given what the Internet is, and the fact that all mathematicians, teachers, and scientists use the internet, it is astounding that you cannot mark up math in a trivial way.
13:22:47 [hsivonen]
emeriste: math in high on complexity and low on money. :-(
13:23:46 [emeriste]
hsivonen - mathML is probably fine. I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into it. All html has to do is recognize it between simple <math> tags.
13:24:03 [anne]
"simple"
13:24:26 [emeriste]
Yeah I told you I'm naive about things but you can understand what I mean anyway.
13:24:38 [anne]
actually, what I meant is that it's non-trivial to come up with a good solution
13:24:42 [anne]
I quoted the wrong word
13:25:10 [emeriste]
It should be 'rudimentary' html. Just like when you put a table on your web page. <table> some instructions </table>
13:25:27 [emeriste]
<math> some instructions (probably in mathML) </math>
13:25:27 [hsivonen]
emeriste: there have been at least three proposed ways of doing this, but we haven't been actively been pursuing this as a WG
13:25:38 [anne]
yeah, I agree it should be really simple if we do it
13:25:45 [hsivonen]
one might argue that politically the time is not right at the moment
13:26:05 [emeriste]
The best time would have been 10 years ago. The second best time is now. :)
13:27:08 [emeriste]
I don't understand namespace or mime or all that. I don't get why I need to use convoluted xhtml that takes me half a day to figure out. I'm sure there are reasons. I recognize my ignorance.
13:28:08 [emeriste]
The Internet is THE medium for communicating ideas. That is all the more so for technical ideas like math and science. For you good people to make math easy to communicate over the Internet would be a singular contribution to humanity.
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14:49:47 [DanC]
anne, have you talked with mjs about design principles lately?
14:50:08 [DanC]
ah. hi mjs
14:50:13 [mjs]
hello DanC
14:51:06 [DanC]
still 1.4 Aug 16 at http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
14:51:09 [DanC]
any news since then?
14:51:58 [DanC]
I'd sure like to get a 1st WD done.
14:52:11 [anne]
publish the spec :)
14:52:29 [DanC]
people pushed back on the diff document and asked for design principles, but now they seem more interested in @title and such.
14:52:53 [mjs]
I haven't had time to edit since then, but I will likely have time today
14:52:56 [DanC]
mjs, do you agree with anne that the design principles shouldn't be top priority?
14:53:36 [mjs]
DanC: I'd most like to see a 1st WD of the actual spec, but it would probably be harder to get people to agree to that
14:54:06 [anne]
(I agree it would be nice to publish the design principles though. Although when we initially wrote them up it was to explain some of the design rationale of HTML5 and then quickly turned into a rathole once exposed to public-html.)
14:54:21 [mjs]
on the other hand, I don't think there's anything we could publish that wouldn't cause at least some level of controversy
14:54:24 [DanC]
the amount of agreement I want/need for 1st WD decreases as time goes on.
14:55:06 [mjs]
anyway, my plan was to spend the rest of this morning processing design principles feedback, after I get to the office
14:55:12 [anne]
(I'm also not sure what the big deal is, Working Drafts are sort of expected to contain bugs and things people might disagree with.)
14:55:13 [hsivonen]
I'm not really here, but it seems that the terms "Cowpaths" and "Real Problems" are problematic
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14:55:35 [mjs]
I would like to at least add an intro, and recast some of the principles where the names have spawned vast amounts of confusion
14:55:55 [DanC]
the big deal is that not everybody has experience with the Working Draft process, and there's a lot of mistrust.
14:56:08 [hsivonen]
As I see it, "Solve Real Problems" means "Don't Reward Concern Trollish Behavior" and "No Architecture Astronautics"
14:56:16 [DanC]
mjs, there's a telcon scheduled for today at 4p Pacific time; anything you can do by then is golden.
14:56:37 [mjs]
I have meetings all afternoon but the rest of my morning is free
14:56:53 [DanC]
ok, I'll relay your regrets for the telcon
15:00:54 [mjs]
I'll send a status update sometime in the early afternoon (pacific time)
15:04:26 [DanC]
great.
15:06:18 [anne]
By the way, I'm not sure if I should remain co-editor now that mjs is editing the document although I suppose I could make minor edits if requested...
15:08:21 [mjs]
I'd prefer to have someone available as backup at least
15:08:27 [DanC]
hmm... I'd like to have some redundancy....
15:08:28 [mjs]
if you don't mind
15:09:20 [anne]
sure
15:09:41 [DanC]
it's ok with me if you play mostly a back-up role, anne. I'll know not to expect you to know the up-to-the-minute status, defend the document against all comers, that sort of thing.
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20:22:19 [anne]
seems the TAG didn't reopen their MIME type issue...
20:22:27 [anne]
oh well
20:24:33 [anne]
(issue-24, fwiw)
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20:44:01 [anne]
mjs, since a while there are links such as http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
20:44:48 [mjs]
anne: oh, cool
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20:52:01 [Philip]
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/vstudio/Aa700736.aspx in Opera outputs '<msdn:herocontrol id="HeroControl1" totalherodiv="1" ... xmlns:msdn="http://msdn.microsoft.com"> </msdn:herocontrol>' as plain text
20:52:20 [Philip]
but I can't tell whether they were trying to use namespaces in HTML, or in actual real XML, and can't tell why it works in Firefox but not Opera
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21:03:00 [anne]
that's because we support <![CDATA[
21:03:40 [Philip]
Ah - by "support", do you mean "parse stupidly"? ;-)
21:04:31 [anne]
something that goes for treating it differently from a bogus comment
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21:05:32 [mjs]
I rewrote http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html#support-existing-content
21:05:36 [mjs]
further comments welcome
21:07:52 [anne]
Philip, first example I've seen where supporting <![CDATA[ is annoying
21:08:37 [Philip]
Hmm, Opera 9.5 still does <![CDATA[ x[y ]]> nonsensically
21:09:42 [jgraham]
mjs: I'm not sure you can start a sentence with "or" (at least it doesn't read well to me although I don't doubt that someone will point out that it's allowed per some supposed spec. for English grammar. However it's a very very minor point and not worth worrying about)
21:09:57 [jgraham]
Apart from that it looks great
21:11:28 [mjs]
jgraham: you can start a sentence with "and" or "but", so I think it's ok
21:12:07 [gavin_]
isn't starting a sentence with a conjunction a major point of debate among English language scholars? :)
21:12:32 [jgraham]
mjs: I'm just saying it fails the "acceptability test" for this native speaker
21:12:54 [mjs]
gavin: It is. But I don't care.
21:13:00 [gavin_]
me neither!
21:13:57 [mjs]
actually, striking the "Or," makes it read better anyway
21:14:20 [jgraham]
gavin_: I thought people had got past that and people just went with "do people fluent in the language think it's OK". Of course there are disagreements between different fluent speakers
21:14:56 [Hixie]
Or, you can just say that "or" is ok to use in stylistic situations. :-)
21:15:23 [mjs]
I changed it because the word was unhelpful
21:15:30 [anne]
Philip, yeah, no point improving it... we should probably remove support for it though
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22:34:50 [tH]
heh, the default "G" icon for the firefox search box is stored as a data:image/x-icon;base64, but it's a gif
22:46:26 [gavin_]
tH: they're all x-icon, because our image guesser is good enough that it didn't matter
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22:48:27 [tH]
gavin_: yeah, i just stuck a return at the top of the guessing function to see what broke and that was the first thing i noticed :)
22:49:04 [gavin_]
ah, ok :)
22:49:51 [DanC]
Zakim, what conference?
22:49:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DanC.
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22:49:55 [DanC]
Zakim, what conference is this?
22:49:55 [Zakim]
no conference has been selected, DanC
22:50:00 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be html
22:50:00 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
22:51:03 [DanC]
agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
22:52:51 [DanC]
agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
22:54:03 [Lachy]
Zakim, passcode
22:54:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy
22:54:08 [DanC]
agenda + Forms draft status
22:54:10 [DanC]
Zakim, passcode?
22:54:10 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
22:54:10 [Lachy]
Zakim, passcode?
22:54:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy
22:55:58 [DanC]
I think Chris W is chairing today, but I'm not quite sure
22:56:45 [DanC]
agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
22:57:00 [DanC]
oops... agenda has leftover stuff
22:57:03 [DanC]
Zakim, clear agenda
22:57:03 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
22:57:07 [DanC]
agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
22:57:12 [DanC]
agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following
22:57:13 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
22:57:17 [DanC]
agenda + Forms draft status
22:57:20 [Zakim]
+??P2
22:57:23 [DanC]
agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict
22:57:24 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P2
22:57:24 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
22:57:31 [Zakim]
+DanC
22:57:39 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
22:57:39 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T22-57-39
22:58:08 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
22:58:08 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
22:58:10 [Zakim]
+Mike
22:58:25 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
22:58:47 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
22:58:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
22:59:06 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make log public
22:59:28 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
22:59:28 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
22:59:29 [Zakim]
1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
22:59:31 [Zakim]
2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
22:59:32 [Zakim]
3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
22:59:33 [Zakim]
4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
22:59:36 [MikeSmith]
oedipus - well, hoping you might volunteer
23:00:04 [oedipus]
i was going to
23:00:08 [oedipus]
i will
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23:00:15 [oedipus]
scribenick: oedipus
23:00:16 [DanC]
agenda + Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
23:00:24 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
23:00:49 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
23:00:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
23:00:53 [DanC]
Regrets: mjs
23:01:02 [oedipus]
zakim, mute me
23:01:02 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
23:01:11 [oedipus]
zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
23:01:11 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
23:01:27 [MikeSmith]
Cba
23:01:33 [MikeSmith]
Chair: DanC
23:01:39 [mjs_]
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23:02:15 [oedipus]
just wanted to make clearer verbiage about backwards compatibility especially targetted for i18n, a11y and device independence
23:02:31 [oedipus]
zakim, unmute me
23:02:31 [Zakim]
sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
23:02:37 [oedipus]
zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
23:02:37 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
23:03:15 [oedipus]
zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
23:03:15 [Zakim]
Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
23:04:06 [MikeSmith]
Meeting: HTML WG phone conference
23:04:24 [DanC]
agenda + thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec
23:04:40 [oedipus]
Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita
23:04:40 [Zakim]
ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita
23:05:00 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
23:05:36 [DanC]
agenda + Issue Tracking
23:05:47 [oedipus]
Topic: Agenda Additions?
23:06:03 [DanC]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
23:06:34 [DanC]
by way of agenda review, looking at actions from last time
23:06:42 [DanC]
ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN]
23:06:58 [Zakim]
-Lachy
23:06:59 [ChrisWilson]
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23:07:08 [Lachy]
oh no, I dropped out :-(
23:07:22 [DanC]
on purpose?
23:07:46 [Lachy]
no, it was some connection error
23:07:47 [oedipus]
DanC: 5 minutes into meeting time -- any remaining agenda requests?
23:07:50 [Zakim]
+??P2
23:07:55 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P2
23:07:55 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
23:08:19 [DanC]
or did the office move eat you up, Chris?
23:08:25 [ChrisWilson]
yes, working on it.
23:09:45 [DanC]
agenda + usability testing video
23:10:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.528.aaaa - is perhaps Chris_Wilson?
23:10:21 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
23:10:21 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
23:10:23 [Zakim]
1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC]
23:10:25 [Zakim]
2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC]
23:10:27 [Zakim]
3. Forms draft status [from DanC]
23:10:29 [Zakim]
4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC]
23:10:31 [Zakim]
5. Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 [from DanC]
23:10:32 [Zakim]
6. thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec [from DanC]
23:10:33 [Zakim]
7. Issue Tracking [from DanC]
23:10:34 [Zakim]
8. usability testing video [from DanC]
23:10:44 [ChrisWilson]
Zakim, +1.206.528.aaaa is me
23:10:44 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.528.aaaa'
23:10:55 [DanC]
Zakim, aaaa is ChrisWilson
23:10:55 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
23:11:42 [oedipus]
DC: will chair due to ChrisW's being inconvenienced by his move
23:11:45 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:11:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Design Principles, DNRtW and following" taken up [from DanC]
23:11:52 [ChrisWilson]
Thanks, Dan
23:12:04 [DanC]
progress http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 1.8 $ of $Date: 2007-09-13 21:14:39
23:12:11 [DanC]
and recent mail from mjs
23:12:25 [oedipus]
DC: abstract status intro and first 2 principles
23:12:29 [oedipus]
CW: reading mail
23:13:00 [oedipus]
DC: happy talked about what is supposed to be produced and what browsers should be expected to eat -- need to repeat -- people not hearing it
23:13:15 [oedipus]
DC: pick up on survey input on do not break the web?
23:13:18 [oedipus]
CW: yes
23:13:26 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
23:13:38 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
23:13:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, Chris_Wilson?
23:14:43 [oedipus]
DC: negative responses to question: "depends upon quality of wheel..." "disagree without comment"
23:15:11 [oedipus]
CW: consider specifying that technology i think covers it; open to discussion of solution editable
23:15:32 [oedipus]
DC: anyone think of better example
23:16:02 [oedipus]
CW: content editable implementations differ, wouldn't automatically accept
23:16:17 [oedipus]
DC: would take a lot of screen real estate for a good pertient example
23:16:19 [ChrisWilson]
Perhaps we should change the example to not imply that we're automatically accepting contenteditable
23:17:20 [oedipus]
DC: "not clear what a widely used..." -- a lot is people basically saying "depends upon wheel"
23:18:02 [oedipus]
CW: not automatically accept the wheel -- agree to disagree -- general case, if wheel already there, consider that feature over reinventing something new, unless demonstratively better
23:18:26 [oedipus]
DC: no actionable feedback in Do Not Reinvent the Wheel
23:18:44 [oedipus]
DC: 5 strongly disagree with
23:18:49 [mjs_]
my plan for that principle was to retitle it to "Consider Existing Implementations" or something like that
23:19:04 [mjs_]
or "Adopt Some De Facto Standards"
23:19:10 [oedipus]
DC: comments express a lot of distrust; principles are just principles
23:19:38 [mjs]
so it's clear that it is a suggestion, not a mandate
23:19:41 [oedipus]
DC: [reviews negative answers]
23:19:49 [oedipus]
DC: laura suggests dropping it
23:20:07 [Lachy]
proposed rewording of pave the cowpaths here http://www.w3.org/mid/46C0A255.7080407@lachy.id.au
23:20:08 [oedipus]
CW: earlier recasting of 3.3
23:20:13 [oedipus]
DC: good point
23:20:24 [oedipus]
CW: doesn't add a whole lot to explicitly have in there
23:20:42 [oedipus]
CW: lightning rod -- cowpaths redundant
23:20:43 [Zakim]
-Lachy
23:20:48 [oedipus]
DC: agree
23:21:04 [ChrisWilson]
Dropped again?
23:21:18 [mjs]
and for "Pave the Cowpaths" something like "Study Authoring Practices"
23:21:21 [Zakim]
+??P0
23:21:29 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P0
23:21:29 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
23:21:39 [mjs]
people say things like "we shouldn't pave this cowpath", but it's hard to argue that "we shouldn't study this authoring practice"
23:21:45 [DanC]
mjs, is Cowpaths redundant w.r.t. "... invent the wheel"?
23:22:05 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xenr
23:22:09 [oedipus]
DC: evolution not revolution
23:22:19 [mjs]
DanC, they are meant to be corresponding principles for existing nonstandard implementation features and existing practices in content
23:22:24 [oedipus]
disagrees from Jason White - "this is redundant"
23:22:41 [DanC]
[[ I suggest to change the principle to "Promote progressive design" ]]
23:22:42 [oedipus]
DC: [reviews disagreements]
23:22:51 [Lachy]
cowpaths isn't redundant. cowpaths is more about use cases, the wheel is more about actual implemented features
23:22:52 [MikeSmith]
q+ to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements regardless of how we word such design principles
23:22:52 [oedipus]
DC: promote progressive design
23:23:09 [oedipus]
DC: "words but not subtext" ?!?!
23:23:09 [ChrisWilson]
Side note - I think "and content will live longer" should be struck from the Evolution not Revolution principle. It's tangential
23:23:19 [oedipus]
DC: another promote progressive design
23:23:34 [oedipus]
DC: solve real problems
23:23:51 [MikeSmith]
q?
23:24:18 [ChrisWilson]
DC asks when we can publish this
23:24:18 [oedipus]
DC: don't want to continue review; when should we publish this thing? negotiate internally about heartbeat requirements, and don't mind if take a little longer
23:24:35 [oedipus]
LH: edit and pass before WG with deadline
23:24:42 [DanC]
s/don't want to/a little too tired to/
23:24:56 [mjs]
I think I can significantly improve it and reduce likely controversy in the next week or so
23:25:06 [DanC]
DanC: yes, after mjs finishes the pass he's engaged in, I'm inclined to publish
23:25:14 [DanC]
mjs, care to give an ETA? something like 2 weeks?
23:25:25 [mjs]
DanC, I think 2 weeks is a good FPWD target
23:25:37 [DanC]
thanks
23:25:54 [oedipus]
DC: that's all i need on DP for today
23:26:42 [oedipus]
LH: general comment -- IRC rewording these and a number of people disagree -- make specific suggestions, not comments like "like wording but not subtext"
23:27:05 [Lachy]
Zakim, who is talking?
23:27:18 [Zakim]
Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
23:27:53 [oedipus]
LH: real world wording -- cliches or truisms; using them as shorthand -- fundamentally opposed to wording, do so on point and suggest something constructive -- better
23:28:10 [DanC]
s/LH:/MikeSmith:/
23:28:20 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:28:20 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
23:28:25 [DanC]
ack MikeSmith
23:28:25 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements
23:28:28 [Zakim]
... regardless of how we word such design principles
23:28:30 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:28:31 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Forms draft status" taken up [from DanC]
23:28:55 [oedipus]
DC: gregory's asked question once or twice -- chris lilley here so can answer
23:29:11 [oedipus]
DC: looks in archive for CL's answer to query
23:29:15 [DanC]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0002.html Re: Web Forms 2 - version clarification, please? Chris Lilley
23:29:33 [oedipus]
DC: W3C Working Draft of august 2006
23:29:40 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
23:30:17 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
23:30:57 [oedipus]
DC: to update TR/webforms some working group needs to publish
23:31:09 [oedipus]
DC: this group could, but not right now
23:31:22 [Zakim]
-Lachy
23:31:23 [oedipus]
GJR: that's why we are tasked to charter and scope
23:31:47 [DanC]
http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html
23:31:54 [oedipus]
DC: october 2006 draft could be pushed to TR
23:32:00 [oedipus]
DC: differences are trivial
23:32:10 [oedipus]
DC: mostly editorial, since august
23:32:43 [oedipus]
DC: want to go over so that no one left concerned
23:32:53 [oedipus]
DC: business of forms task force itself
23:33:02 [oedipus]
GJR: maciej on IRC
23:33:14 [MikeSmith]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070913231706.GB4724@mikesmith
23:33:52 [oedipus]
GJR: one of the things i thought might speed was to work on a wiki so not lost in deluge of email
23:34:32 [Lachy]
Lachy has joined #html-wg
23:34:36 [oedipus]
GJR: ChrisL amenable to idea, but don't know upon which wiki to work
23:34:48 [oedipus]
DC: move to migrate mediawiki
23:34:58 [Zakim]
+??P0
23:35:01 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P0
23:35:01 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
23:35:35 [oedipus]
DC: don't think grass going to necessarily greener on different wiki
23:35:49 [oedipus]
GJR: forms WG have wiki
23:36:10 [oedipus]
DC: ESW wiki fine by me; new wiki straight forward (but not strongly encouraged)
23:36:49 [oedipus]
Lachy: HTML wiki could swallow it -- easy to get lost
23:37:04 [MikeSmith]
[I agree that mediawiki would bring a new set of problems; but Rotan Hanrahan (who's quite familiar with both Mediawiki and MoinMoin) is convinced that Mediawiki causes much less pain
23:37:15 [oedipus]
DC: system team working on it; 22 wikis and don't want to give mediawiki to one until can get to all
23:37:31 [oedipus]
DC: email and try a teleconference in meantime
23:37:53 [Lachy]
oedipus, I said: ESW wiki doesn't have talk pages, that causes discussion to get mixed into the articles and difficult to follow and edit
23:37:59 [oedipus]
DC: forms task force not stuck on anything in particular
23:38:04 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:38:04 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "US/EU telcon time conflict" taken up [from DanC]
23:38:35 [oedipus]
Topic: Meeting Times
23:39:04 [oedipus]
DC: want to move US time 2 hours earlier on alternate
23:39:11 [oedipus]
CW: could do at 9
23:39:22 [oedipus]
DC: would have to leave for conflict meeting
23:39:25 [ChrisWilson]
(thats 1 hour earlier)
23:39:33 [Lachy]
I wonder if it would be possible to merge the ESW wiki and whatwg wiki, and then mirror it on both w3 and whatwg.org?
23:39:36 [heycam]
heycam has joined #html-wg
23:39:37 [oedipus]
DC: not available to chair on 27 september
23:39:47 [oedipus]
DC: ChrisW can you chair on that date
23:40:02 [oedipus]
CW: going to be on the road -- in fact, conflicts with keynote speech
23:40:19 [oedipus]
DC: could chair the day after -- 21 september -- a friday
23:40:27 [oedipus]
GJR: what time
23:40:30 [DanC]
Fri Sep 21 at 1pET?
23:41:01 [oedipus]
1700 UTC
23:41:29 [Hixie]
Lachy: that sounds like a lot of pain for little gain, but from the whatwg side i'm happy for you to do that if you think it's worth it
23:41:31 [oedipus]
EDT is UTC -4
23:42:09 [oedipus]
DC: reschedule or cancel meeting on 27 september -- could reschedule but would have to be a week later
23:42:14 [mjs]
Lachy, Hixie: mirroring could be in the form of a CNAME
23:42:20 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to meet 21 Sep Fri 1p Boston time, DanC to chair
23:42:25 [mjs]
(if w3c is ok with that)
23:42:26 [DanC]
I'll confirm by email
23:42:30 [oedipus]
CW: first week of october
23:42:35 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Sep
23:42:38 [Hixie]
mjs: i'm sure they'd want different branding too
23:42:43 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:42:43 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07" taken up [from DanC]
23:43:00 [oedipus]
TOPIC: November F2F Organization
23:43:20 [oedipus]
DC: found middle ground between conferences -- announced that, so everyone should know
23:44:07 [oedipus]
DC: on wednesday, plenary happening - have draft agenda -- there is a member tech plenary list -- suggest that whomever can get there 8 november for plenary; we convene after lunch on 9 september
23:44:31 [oedipus]
DC: 17 registrants and a dozen or so requesting invited expert status
23:44:38 [oedipus]
DC: broad representation
23:44:41 [Hixie]
oh while we're talking abouth the plenary, i should announce in the interests of transparency and full disclosure that google will be funding james graham's attendance, and will probably be funding two other people though those details have yet to be finalised.
23:44:49 [DanC]
noted, hixie
23:44:51 [oedipus]
DC: continue to meet through lunch saturday morning
23:45:11 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:45:11 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec" taken up [from DanC]
23:45:12 [oedipus]
DC: anything else about F2F?
23:45:26 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec
23:45:46 [oedipus]
DC: detailed reviews coming in regularly; haven't done my audit of reviews in a while
23:45:52 [mjs_]
mjs_ has joined #html-wg
23:46:06 [oedipus]
ChrisW: microsoft review still delayed - not before beginning of next week
23:46:14 [oedipus]
DC: how about before telecon
23:46:21 [oedipus]
CW: on eve of sounds like good plan
23:46:33 [oedipus]
DC: HTML5 spec going out at same time or after DP?
23:46:35 [oedipus]
CW: after
23:46:38 [oedipus]
GJR: after
23:46:46 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:46:46 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Issue Tracking" taken up [from DanC]
23:46:53 [oedipus]
Topic: Issue Tracking
23:47:15 [oedipus]
DC: Sam Ruby still not ready to jump in with both feet
23:47:52 [oedipus]
DC: could use someone in this role; W3C still searching for permenant staff contact
23:47:58 [oedipus]
DC: thoughts on triage team?
23:48:10 [oedipus]
CW: ???? (couldn't hear)
23:48:16 [oedipus]
DC: you want to keep the ball
23:48:18 [oedipus]
CW: yes
23:48:25 [oedipus]
DC: continue that action item, then
23:48:30 [DanC]
ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES]
23:48:51 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:48:51 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "usability testing video" taken up [from DanC]
23:48:59 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Usability Testing Video
23:49:13 [oedipus]
DC: merits attention of entire WG
23:49:24 [oedipus]
DC: [searches for pointer]
23:49:43 [oedipus]
Lachy: Joshue who wrote
23:49:47 [Lachy]
http://www.w3.org/mid/46DD6F27.6070608@cfit.ie
23:49:49 [oedipus]
GJR: there is a wiki page with links
23:50:09 [oedipus]
GJR: sliced into easily digestable portions
23:50:11 [Lachy]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html
23:50:12 [DanC]
From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
23:50:12 [DanC]
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:43:51 +0100
23:50:22 [DanC]
with links to videos such as http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/Table1.wmv
23:50:39 [oedipus]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTesting
23:51:00 [oedipus]
DC: common user task -- can you find price of OJ on web site, look at how many succed and how many fail
23:51:15 [Hixie]
those videos are very interesting, i studied the header and longdesc ones in detail. has he updated the summary one yet? it used to be a dupe of the headers video.
23:51:18 [oedipus]
DC: one video allowing person to editorialize -- did i look at wrong parts?
23:51:28 [oedipus]
Lachy: rest similar
23:51:40 [oedipus]
DC: useful, but not what i was expecting
23:51:48 [oedipus]
GJR: guidelines for user testing?
23:51:57 [oedipus]
DC: worth celebrating in any case
23:52:03 [Hixie]
yeah you have to ignore joshue's comments as he editorialises :-) but the actual use parts are quite interesting
23:52:05 [oedipus]
GJR: should we set some?
23:52:22 [oedipus]
DC: cool that hixie really studying videos
23:52:36 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:52:36 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC
23:52:52 [DanC]
good point, hixie.
23:52:53 [oedipus]
DC: end of prepared agenda
23:53:04 [DanC]
yes, some videos is a whole lot better than no videos
23:53:09 [Hixie]
i love studying them in detail
23:53:26 [Hixie]
it's a goldmine of helpful guidance
23:53:40 [DanC]
* Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all
23:54:02 [DanC]
ADJOURN.
23:54:10 [Zakim]
-Lachy
23:54:12 [Zakim]
-Chris_Wilson?
23:54:27 [Hixie]
oedipus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ logs the /mes, iirc
23:54:31 [oedipus]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
23:54:46 [oedipus]
rrsagent, create minutes
23:54:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
23:54:49 [Zakim]
-DanC
23:54:53 [oedipus]
rrsagent, format minutes
23:54:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
23:54:59 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
23:55:04 [oedipus]
rrsagent, publish minutes
23:55:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
23:55:38 [DanC]
Zakim, attendees?
23:55:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DanC.
23:55:42 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
23:55:42 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Lachy, DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.206.528.aaaa
23:55:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-wg
23:55:43 [DanC]
Zakim, list participants
23:55:50 [DanC]
ok.
23:56:05 [DanC]
wierd... it didn't get ChrisW
23:56:23 [oedipus]
strange
23:56:29 [MikeSmith]
yeah, dunno why that
23:56:30 [oedipus]
it's been acting strangely all week
23:56:51 [MikeSmith]
Zakim going through adolescent rebellion?
23:57:11 [oedipus]
check for zits -- that's the dead give-away
23:57:14 [MikeSmith]
heh
23:57:20 [heycam]
RRSAgent, list participants
23:57:20 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
23:57:59 [DanC]
thanks, MikeSmith , for mailing out the agenda
23:58:04 [MikeSmith]
np
23:59:09 [Hixie]
oh sweet it looks like joshue updated the summary="" video
00:14:14 [robburns]
robburns has joined #html-wg
00:17:02 [robburns]
waves back
00:17:22 [oedipus]
the telecon just ended about 10-15 minutes ago
00:19:05 [oedipus]
minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html
00:19:16 [oedipus]
IRC Log: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc
00:20:51 [robburns]
oedipus: thanks, I thought I might have missed it. I've been away from the internet for a while so I wasn't even sure what time this one was being held
00:22:39 [oedipus]
next meeting is scheduled for 1pm EDT / 1700 UTC Friday, 21 September 2007
00:23:17 [oedipus]
PROPOSED: cancel 27 September call - reschedule possibly for first week of October
00:23:33 [robburns]
OK, thanks
00:24:09 [robburns]
I thought this meeting might have been a 1700 meeting, because the last one was 2300, wasn't it?
00:24:14 [oedipus]
no problem -- helps to know in advance -- the october call would be the 7pm EDT/4pm PDT/
00:25:24 [MikeSmith]
oedipus - no biggy about Present list; I've added it now and trimmed the minutes and checked back in
00:25:26 [oedipus]
the meetings are alternating between western and eastern hemisphere time slots; DanC does the american afternoon, while ChrisW chairs the alternate meeting
00:25:50 [oedipus]
thanks MikeS - i don't have "permission(s)" to work that kinda magic in w3c space
00:27:33 [oedipus]
robburns: so one meeting is at 1700 UTC while the other is at 2300 UTC
00:29:54 [robburns]
ooedipus: thanks for the info. bon appetit.
00:30:52 [oedipus]
robburns: thanks - i AM off to cook that damn pasta, and take it from me, a listened-to pot of water doesn't boil any faster than a looked-at pot...
00:31:58 [robburns]
OEDIPUS: LOL
00:46:00 [polin8]
polin8 has joined #html-wg
00:54:31 [olivier]
olivier has joined #html-wg
01:08:21 [Lachy]
hmm. in the summary attribute video, it's interesting how the bind user says he wouldn't miss it if HTML5 didn't include it, since he never uses it in practice, but then still says it might be useful without really explaining why
01:18:10 [oedipus]
lachy - the user probably doesn't miss it due to lack of support for it; it is extremely useful than the alternative -- a simple X by Y (X equaling rows and y equaling columns) statement, which is what is presented to the user in the absence of a summary
01:20:37 [oedipus]
there is a world of difference when one knows not merely how many rows and columns a table consists of, but what they are representative of -- i tried to explain/demonstrate this in the example at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns#head-27604d3fc1ffdb981a52a4144d36777d598016a2
01:21:10 [Lachy]
oedipus, in practice, do you personally have the summary attribute read out when provided? And when provided, do you usually find it has a useful value?
01:21:25 [oedipus]
yes, it is automatically read
01:21:57 [oedipus]
i find it extremely useful when there aren't explicit bindings such as those provided by headers/id
01:22:19 [oedipus]
it is also commonly used in a "list of tables on this page" dialog
01:22:33 [oedipus]
otherwise, an AT will substitute the dimensions of a table
01:23:11 [Philip]
Does it hurt much when people use it non-usefully, like summary="Video Games, video games, video game reviews, video game rentals, video game, video game rental", or is it easy to ignore that kind of thing?
01:23:50 [oedipus]
it at least tells me what is contained in an area of the document i'm about to traverse
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01:24:13 [oedipus]
or to make a decision to skip or navigate the table
01:24:32 [oedipus]
one learns to ignore spacer dot gif
01:25:06 [Philip]
(That was from http://www.gamefly.com/ps2/ where it's used three times on layout tables - I guess they're aiming for some SEO benefit)
01:25:07 [oedipus]
and other annoyances -- the AT should have a setting to suppress such renderings or tailor them to the individual user's liking/need
01:25:41 [Lachy]
I wonder if it would be possible for it to read out more useful information when summary has been omitted, such as the section heading or title attribute, or something else that would be more useful than the dimensions?
01:26:08 [oedipus]
an AT will try and guess whether a table is a layout table or a data table, and one CAN instruct one's AT to avoid what it deems as a layout table
01:26:26 [oedipus]
lachy: that's where aria markup enters the picture
01:33:35 [Lachy]
I don't have much faith in the success of WAI ARIA. From what I've seen of it, it seems to be poorly engineered and overly complex for authors
01:35:36 [Lachy]
for instance, the first example in the aria-role spec is using a span to implement a tri-state checkbox. I'd rather extend <input type=checkbox> to support tri-states than hack around it with non-semantic spans
01:36:23 [Lachy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Example
01:38:10 [Lachy]
Another example uses divs and CSS to build a collapsible tree view list http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Exampletree - HTML5 solves that use case with datagrid
01:42:09 [Hixie]
holy jeesus that's complex markup
01:42:49 [Hixie]
i wonder what happens if one of those "wairole:treeitem"s was a "wairole:grid"
01:42:51 [Hixie]
is that defined?
01:51:06 [Lachy]
Mark P just wrote this http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery
01:51:33 [Lachy]
oedipus, I added a preview button for the blog comments (I know you complained about that before)
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01:55:08 [Philip]
Lachy: But HTML5 solves that use case by putting it into a decade-long specification project and requiring every UA to implement new features, which isn't helpful when somebody wants some other type of control and wants it working within the month
02:00:59 [heycam]
blog.whatwg.org should give the author of entries
02:02:26 [Lachy]
heycam, I just fixed that.
02:02:40 [Lachy]
it's another bug as a result of the wordpress upgrade
02:02:54 [Lachy]
I accidentially replaced all the templates
02:04:00 [heycam]
cool
02:14:25 [Lachy]
does anyone know how, in wordpress, to check if an author has a URL, and if so, link their name to it? It seems that the_author_url() function immediate prints it, rather than return a useful, testable value
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02:53:40 [Lachy]
never mind, found what I was looking for http://codex.wordpress.org/Template_Tags/the_author_url
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03:54:45 [Lachy]
wow, ARIA Role is worse than I thought. It's a band-aid solution written from an ivory tower, seemingly without seriously considering any authoring issues.
03:55:32 [Lachy]
(I'm fairly sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but oh well)
03:59:24 [mjs_]
Lachy: can you name the accessibility experts you consulted before coming to that conclusion?
04:00:09 [mjs]
actually, I do think some sort of tagging system for accessibility roles is useful, if only because web applications will want to get ahead of what browsers support natively
04:00:25 [mjs]
but I think ARIA Role is not a very good approach to doing that
04:00:40 [Lachy]
I reached my conclusion from reading the spec
04:01:37 [mjs]
Lachy: I was being needlessly sarcastic there
04:01:58 [Lachy]
I know, but there are IRC log readers who might want the answer anyway
04:03:19 [mjs]
I agree with you, based also on reading the spec
04:03:50 [mjs]
although I think the intent is partly that JavaScript toolkit libraries will do all the heavy lifting, so the scope of authoring issues would be limited
04:03:56 [Lachy]
BTW, wairole:grid is also addressed by <datagrid>
04:04:32 [Hixie]
as far as i can tell, there isn't anything in wairole that isn't catered for by html5
04:04:55 [Hixie]
(i used the wairole spec as a checklist a year ago or so and made sure)
04:05:17 [mjs]
tristate checkboxes?
04:05:43 [Lachy]
unfortunately, we can't rely on javascript toolkits (or any other tools) saving authors from the complexity
04:06:05 [Hixie]
oh right, tristate checkboxes were on the list for wf2 but got bumped to wf3 because i couldn't work out how to submit them neatly
04:06:30 [Lachy]
Hixie, are they somewhere in the whatwg.org/issues/ list?
04:06:46 [mjs]
how do normal checkboxes submit?
04:07:13 [Lachy]
when checked, they submit name=value. when unchecked, they submit nothing
04:07:14 [Hixie]
lachy: they're probably in the big comment at the bottom of wf2's source
04:07:20 [Hixie]
what lachy said
04:07:28 [mjs]
the third (indeterminate/mixed) state of tristate checkboxes is mainly useful as an initial state when a group has mixed state and can be toggled on and off as a whole
04:07:46 [Hixie]
there's an easy solution (have a second name for the mixed state) but i don't really like that
04:08:00 [Hixie]
mjs: yeah but you still have to distinguish between left-in-initial-state and unchecked vs checked
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04:08:28 [Lachy]
I'm not sure mixed state checkboxes should be submitted, since they're usually representative of a group of other checkboxes, and so their state can be determined by examining the state of the others
04:08:52 [mjs]
mixed-state checkboxes mainly seem useful for cases where check/uncheck will be handled by script
04:09:17 [Hixie]
possible
04:09:26 [mjs]
what (if anything) they submit can't just be left unspecified
04:09:38 [Lachy]
indeed. AFAIK, there is no way for a user to explicity set an individual checkbox to a mixed state in any UI I've seen.
04:09:40 [mjs]
but it's possible that not submitting (just like an unchecked one) might be workable
04:10:10 [mjs]
maybe not though
04:10:29 [Hixie]
well we'll see
04:10:36 [Hixie]
wf3 is a far future thing
04:10:51 [Hixie]
and demand for tristate is low
04:11:13 [Lachy]
the other alternative would be to introduce an attribute <input type=checkbox name=x value="foo" mixed="bar">, where x=foo is submitted in the normal case and x=bar for the mixed case
04:11:35 [mjs]
I'm probably going to suggest form features for HTML5 that aren't part of WF2 at some point
04:11:54 [mjs]
but I don't know if tristate would be high on the list
04:12:18 [Lachy]
mjs, are you or someone else from apple ever going to get around to providing details about placeholder=""? I recall that you once said someone would do so
04:12:51 [mjs]
Lachy: I will remind the relevant person when she gets back from vacation
04:13:01 [Lachy]
ok
04:13:01 [mjs]
but I'm not sure there's a whole lot to say about it
04:13:21 [mjs]
<input type="search"> is probably something that will actually need revision to be spec-worthy, and explication of current behavior
04:13:46 [Lachy]
I think most of placeholder is fairly obvious, but in case there's some not-so-obvious detail about it
04:14:01 [Hixie]
Lachy: yeah i suggested that easy solution above :-)
04:14:30 [mjs]
I don't think there is anything non-obvious about placeholder
04:15:29 [Hixie]
placeholder will be done before wf3 i'm sure
04:15:45 [Lachy]
one thing about tristate checkbox that would need to be addressed is that typically, when checking one, the states of the related group of checkboxes is usually toggled too.
04:16:28 [mjs]
it might be possible to come up with a nice solution for that in the context of datagrid at least
04:18:41 [mjs]
I think there's definitely controls that would be more useful than some of the half-dozen different date controls in WF2
04:19:06 [mjs]
but I will save it until the current forms stuff is integrated into the main spec
04:19:20 [mjs]
(presumably after the Forms Task Force finishes deciding what it is supposed to do and then doing it)
04:20:47 [Lachy]
mjs, is the forms task force ever going to get started?
04:21:10 [mjs]
Lachy: we're waiting on the sixth person to give a sign of life
04:21:27 [mjs]
Lachy: there was some rumor that he might be on vacation
04:21:38 [mjs]
though I must admit so far it is the slowest-acting six-person group I have ever seen
04:22:09 [Lachy]
hmm. there are 10 emails pending user approval for public-forms-tf. I can't see what they are though, I don't have permission for that. Maybe they're trying to send but can't?
04:22:49 [mjs]
I would assume that shouldn't happen for people who are on the list
04:24:06 [Lachy]
yeah, unless "pending user approval" means that they haven't yet agreed to the W3C's email archive policy, which needs to be done before posts will go through on any list
04:27:38 [mjs]
Sebastian has been an XForms WG member for some time (and I think maybe also XHTML2 WG)
04:27:45 [mjs]
I'd be surprised if he hasn't sent any email
04:29:37 [Lachy]
yeah, he has, I just checked, so that can't be the reason
04:47:35 [olivier]
the 10 mails "pending approval" are all spam
04:47:50 [olivier]
Dept.of Offshore Mortgage Services !
04:47:55 [olivier]
Dearest Be Loved One
04:48:42 [Lachy]
thanks olivier
04:49:01 [olivier]
etc etc
04:49:15 [olivier]
np
04:49:17 [Lachy]
do they get automatically purged after a while?
04:50:10 [olivier]
yes, I think so
04:50:37 [olivier]
I think the people have a week following the initial challenge
04:53:03 [olivier]
the assumption being that if they send mail, they're around and aren't going to disappear for a week moments after sending their first mail to a list
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11:35:42 [anne]
DanC, the reason the Forms TF is not moving is described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0003.html
11:38:45 [Lachy]
anne, it might be a good idea to just get started without him for now or maybe ask the Forms WG to replace him
11:39:51 [Lachy]
it's been nearly 3 weeks since the group began, that's enough waiting
11:40:33 [anne]
we asked Septemeber 9, it's probably good to give it some more time
11:41:20 [Lachy]
mjs asked for introductions on Aug 22
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13:37:13 [Lachy]
robburns, why are you choosing to blatently ignore information about actual user testing of longdesc that shows how it doesn't work in practice and users don't really benefit from it even when provided?
13:38:00 [Lachy]
I'm referring to your response to Eric Eggert/Tomas Caspers
13:38:32 [robburns]
Lachy: I'm not ignoring any information. I just don't think the conclusion is based on any of the information provided. It must be based on something else, but that's not stated in the email.
13:39:11 [Lachy]
you don't think the fact that *users don't even benefit from it* isn't evidence against it?
13:40:16 [Lachy]
I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion, nor why you continue to hold on to faulty assumptions
13:42:50 [robburns]
Lachy: yes if you start from the assumption that "users don't even benefit from it" I can see how you get to the conclusion that we should eliminate it. However, I can't imagine how users wouldn't benefit from it in circumstances the require a long description.
13:43:32 [Lachy]
I'm not starting with the assumption that they don't. I'm just not starting with the assumption that they do
13:43:48 [robburns]
If you're going to start from the assumption that "users don't benefit from it" and then say ergo we can eliminate the attribute, you might as well just start from the assumption "that we should eliminate the attribute"
13:44:39 [robburns]
Lachy: then how do you draw the conclusion that we have any evidence against retaining longdesc?
13:45:07 [robburns]
if you're not making that assumption I mean
13:46:35 [Lachy]
1. authors rarely use it. 2. when they do, they often use it wrongly or redundantly (e.g. <a href=""> to the same page). 3. evidence from user testing (including both Joshue's video and Eric's email) suggests that real screen reader users don't make use of it, even when provided.
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13:47:20 [Lachy]
what exactly is your case for longdesc?
13:47:57 [Lachy]
from what I've read, it's basically that we should including it with the hope that UAs will implement it better, authors will use it better and users will start to benefit from it then.
13:48:20 [Lachy]
that approach is just absurd
13:48:42 [robburns]
1. it doesn't matter how often authors use it. 2. it isn't redundant if it's required for browser fallback that don't support it. 3. you cannot interpret user testing to generalize that no user for any site don't make use of it (those users didn't for those sites)
13:49:17 [Lachy]
see, that's what I mean about *blatently ignoring evidence*!
13:49:27 [robburns]
UAs implementing it better is absurd? Or authors using it better?
13:49:44 [robburns]
which evidence am I ignoring?
13:50:45 [Lachy]
no, the assumption that UAs can or will implement it better and that users will start using it better is absurd. It's theoretically possible for either of those to happen, but there's no evidence to suggest that it will
13:51:31 [Lachy]
you're ignoring evidence of author usage, UA support and the lack of usability. That's pretty much everything!
13:51:38 [robburns]
Lachy: there's no more evidence to suggest browsers will implement any of the HTML5 spec. We have to take that part on faith.
13:52:19 [Lachy]
ah, no, there's plenty of evidence that UAs will implement many new features
13:52:23 [robburns]
No, I acknowledge all of that evidence. I just don't see how you can leap to the conclusions you leap to. There's an enormous disconnect between that evidence and what you conclude.
13:52:32 [Lachy]
list some for which you think there is no evidence?
13:53:00 [Lachy]
robburns, there's no counter evidence. I'm still waiting for you to present yours
13:53:17 [robburns]
Lachy: present my what?
13:53:25 [Lachy]
your evidence in support of longdesc
13:56:02 [robburns]
How about this evidence: 1 blind people cannot see (stipulated). 2. images that convey critical content or the prime content for a webpage may require a lengthy and semantically rich description for those who cannot see the image 3) img is a void element and cannot contain such lengthy and semantically rich description. 4) longdesc is an attribute that takes an URL that can point to a semantically rich description of an image.
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13:57:38 [Lachy]
the first 3 are potential reasons to supply a long description, which I don't disagree with. Concluding that longdesc="" is the answer is what I disagree with. Longdesc is just one possible solution which has failed in reality
13:57:52 [anne]
<object>
13:58:22 [robburns]
OK, but does that mean we're going to remove <img> from the document conformance criteria?
13:58:43 [anne]
why? seems to work fine
13:58:46 [robburns]
I agree that longdesc is just one possible solution.
13:59:54 [robburns]
anne: why not add several elements and require that they all work fine. We could have 1) <picture>, 2. <still>, 3) <photograph>, 4)...
13:59:56 [anne]
Philip, see pm
14:00:07 [anne]
robburns, I'm not sure how that's useful
14:00:32 [anne]
<img> works fine for authors today and they're used it and it's well implemented; why require the world to change here?
14:00:43 [robburns]
anne: that was my point
14:01:34 [anne]
well, longdesc is not used by the world and since it was invented has been sparsely implemented
14:01:44 [robburns]
anne: the point is that you put forward <object> to fix the short-comings of <img>. If <object> fixes those short-coming, then why do we need <img> too. Once <object> works finer than <img> let's drop-kick <img>
14:01:45 [anne]
and when it's used it's mostly abused it seems
14:02:05 [anne]
<object> is more typing and doesn't work good in some browsers
14:02:10 [robburns]
we don't have much evidence of its abuse.
14:02:22 [anne]
we have lots of statistics and people who have examined such pages
14:02:24 [Lachy]
because <img> is going to continue to be used and there's no reason to prevent that. Longdesc, on the other hand, doesn't get used and so it doesn't matter what happens to it.
14:02:26 [anne]
wikipedia is a prime example
14:02:48 [anne]
but it seems that you're not really willing to accept anything of that, so I'm not sure why I'm debating this with you...
14:03:08 [robburns]
anne: no wikipedia is not a prime example: at least not one to make your case.
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14:03:50 [robburns]
wikipedia has a small bug in that its longdesc doesn't point to the document fragment on the page where the long description occurs.
14:03:57 [anne]
lol
14:04:13 [anne]
you're just not being realistic here
14:04:35 [robburns]
but it's not a bug that the longdesc attribute points to the page with the long description and that there's also a link to bring authors to where they can edit that image, its long description, and its other metadata
14:05:05 [robburns]
anne: I have no idea what you mean by that.
14:05:17 [robburns]
how am I not being realistic?
14:05:42 [Lachy]
real long descriptions generally don't occur on wikipedia image pages, it's generally just copyright information, file history and other metadata
14:06:23 [Lachy]
but in wikipedia, longdesc is completely redundant given the <a href=""> pointing to the same page, which is equally usefull for everyone
14:07:20 [robburns]
Lachy: but wikipedia does provide a filed for long descriptions of images. And its not redundant because it provides different information to the UA. It just so happens for the wiki it needs to provide a mechanism for visistors to edit the information.
14:07:39 [robburns]
... visitors to edit the information also
14:08:07 [robburns]
However, other than missing the fragment identifier I'd say MediaWiki is right on with their longdesc support.
14:08:40 [Lachy]
wikipedia wouldn't lose anything at all by removing longdesc and setting alt="" on images in articles. <a href="">, possibly with rel=longdesc, would be just as effective for end users and more effective in practice
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14:09:10 [anne]
MarkB!
14:09:27 [MarkB]
ho!
14:10:01 [anne]
MarkB, you think the _technical_ architecture group should suggest UI enhancements for browsers? :)
14:10:11 [robburns]
Lachy: that could almost work for mediawiki. However, that approach would not work for any sight that wanted to provide a long description in a different location than the image link. So even for MediaWiki it would mean they couldn't fix the before mentioned bug of adding a fragment identifier.
14:10:35 [MarkB]
just as an example, yah, i think it might help
14:11:04 [anne]
hmm, for them to realize this is not realistic?
14:11:13 [MarkB]
lol
14:11:39 [MarkB]
no, for the browser vendors to realize that we're not asking you to halt-and-catch-fire 8-)
14:14:02 [Lachy]
robburns, sites can provide an additional link adjacent to the image. e.g. <figure><img><legnd>Caption... (<a href="..." rel=longdesc>read long description</a>)</legend></fieldset>
14:15:24 [robburns]
Lachy: sure they could, but why should they have to. Authors want more control over their document s than that. They want to indicate a link when they want a link and they want to indicate longdesc when they want longdesc. (with no link)
14:15:47 [Lachy]
it's what many sites do in practice anyway
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14:17:10 [Lachy]
if they don't want the link visible for sighted users, they could always hide it with stylesheets. But in many cases, the long description is useful to more than just those with ATs that expose it
14:17:16 [robburns]
Lachy: well those authors would be free to continue doing that even if longdesc worked correctly
14:18:47 [Lachy]
right. Which authors use longdesc in a useful way without providing a redundant link? I've seen very few sites that ever do that (only found 1 so far)
14:21:02 [robburns]
Well I've seen many examples. I think if it's a genuine longdesc — and it's not a wiki — then most authors would not want to provide a redundant link. I't s content not relevant for those who can fully consume the graphic directly.
14:26:59 [Lachy]
robburns, there are, for example, low vision users who may not use a screen reader or other assistive, but may still benefit from the long description because they can't see image in great detail. But they could read the long description by magnifying the text
14:28:05 [robburns]
Lachy: yes I understand that use case. That's why I think we should require longdesc support for all UAs (without using a standard hyperlink)
14:29:07 [Lachy]
well, in practice, that hasn't happened and you haven't presented any evidence that it will. As I said on the blog, if you can get UAs to implement it in a useful way and it can be demonstrated that it helps improve its usage, it could be included later
14:30:38 [Lachy]
but until then, I don't think its worth considering longdesc="" as a viable solution. I think its dead.
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14:36:51 [Philip]
Lachy: Why couldn't they just zoom in on the image?
14:37:38 [Lachy]
they could, but it might be harder to comprehend the image if they can only see a small portion of it at a time.
14:38:09 [Philip]
I suppose colour blindness is a case where it can be useful to have a description of some images
14:39:14 [Philip]
(since you can't really use any technology to convert the image into an equivalent graphical form)
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12:08:08 [MikeSmith]
me and Kaz Ashimura are now at the Mozilla 24 event in Tokyo
12:08:09 [MikeSmith]
http://qwik.jp/mozilla24/2.html
12:25:27 [karl]
ah cool MikeSmith
12:25:31 [karl]
how is it going?
12:26:02 [MikeSmith]
karl - going OK
12:26:12 [MikeSmith]
listening to Keiki Ichikawa from Opera
12:26:52 [MikeSmith]
no beer here
12:26:57 [MikeSmith]
I was expecting beer
12:27:26 [karl]
MikeSmith: opensource is not anymore what it was. ;) big business now. No more beers.
12:27:35 [MikeSmith]
break a window and climb down the outside wall
12:27:58 [karl]
hmmm that's an idea. We have seen spiders on wall, but not yet cows
12:29:38 [Dashiva]
Well, judging by the locale, it could be a ninja cow
12:30:04 [MikeSmith]
kazuhito kidachi here too
12:30:12 [karl]
ah cool.
12:31:05 [MikeSmith]
kazuhito - kidachi-san: wondering if there is a direct way to connect to IRC for this event (rather than going through the Web-based thing)
12:32:40 [karl]
no idea. and I can't tell you from Boston :p
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13:41:05 [MikeSmith]
very entertaining interaction going on here at the Mozilla 24 event, between some Opera users and MSIE reps
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15:19:11 [anne]
ah, I'm on dreamhost now...
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16:50:31 [anne]
made new stuff finally work thanks to Lachy
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20:10:28 [anne]
hsivonen, Philip, nested <canvas> would only make sense if the fallback story of <canvas> was indeed dependent upon some features, but it isn't
20:11:11 [anne]
(well, we currently show fallback when ECMAScript or images are disabled iirc)
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20:41:06 [Philip]
anne: Since you can access the fallback content with scripts, it can still make sense to put more canvases inside the first canvas's fallback content since they might still be used somehow
21:03:41 [anne]
Philip, yeah, I suppose
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21:50:27 [emeriste]
Are there any new thoughts on making math easier to typeset with ordinary html?
21:50:44 [anne]
dunno
21:51:02 [anne]
I don't think all the data has changed much since last time
21:51:46 [emeriste]
Anne -- Naively this is the way I think such things work: There is some standard for what the syntax should look like so that website makers and browser makers are on the same page . . .
21:52:28 [emeriste]
anne -- Then, <tags> of various kinds are used to mark up pages so that browsers (or other things) can look at them and render it.
21:53:17 [emeriste]
anne -- So what I think it should be, is that there should be <math> tags. And between those <math> tags you use some kind of syntax to describe the mathematical expressions to the browser. And then the browser simply draws what you have described.
21:53:25 [emeriste]
Why does this have to be so hard?
21:54:27 [anne]
because it needs to be integrated with MathML in a way that doesn't upset people and works well; and also because the same problem needs to be solved for SVG; and also because some people feel it should be solved for an x amount of potential languages
21:55:19 [anne]
the solution should also be reasonably backwards compatible, easy to author, etc.
21:55:30 [emeriste]
MathML would be the most likely way of 'describing' what you have in mind to the browser. In other words, it's a logical syntax to put between the <math> tags (although in an ideal world, LaTeX would be even better, but I'm not picky).
21:55:31 [anne]
on top of that there's not much interest in the subject apart from a few individuals
21:57:36 [anne]
anyway, I should go to bed
21:57:47 [emeriste]
anne -- (1) The Internet is the world's greatest vector for transmitting ideas. (2) No ideas are as powerful or affect life on earth as profoundly as scientific and mathematical ones. (3) It is a sin that html cannot facilitate the communication of mathematical ideas. (4) Anyone who solves this problem will be the Gutenburg of the new millenium.
21:58:19 [Philip]
People publishing scientific and mathematical ideas are happy using LaTeX and PDF
21:58:23 [beowulf]
religion might haev something to say about (2)
21:58:29 [beowulf]
and (3), probably
21:59:19 [emeriste]
Philip - Yeah like people used to be happy with papyrus.
21:59:23 [anne]
emeriste, I don't disagree with you that this problem needs solving, I'm just outlining the problem; expecting progress in days is way too optimistic; I'd check back in a year or so or lobby with browser vendors or something
22:01:58 [emeriste]
I know this is a group of good people and I respect everyone here and all of their valuable and generous efforts.
22:02:31 [Philip]
emeriste: It seems the only particular problem with papyrus was that paper was cheaper
22:02:53 [Philip]
so I'm not quite sure how the analogy applies here
22:10:37 [emeriste]
Philip -- I have in mind the difference between having monks with an esoteric skill set write out everything by hand, compared with some process that anyone can do.
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23:22:34 [Philip]
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - noooo! Opera still wins :-(
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00:25:36 [mjs]
Safari 3 beta and Firefox 3 alpha both seem pretty close
00:27:49 [mjs]
I think Safari is not doing so bad considering that image data and some of the other newer features are completely unimplemented
00:29:59 [Philip]
It would be really nice if Safari did implement some of the newer features, so I could use getPixelData to determine pass/fail automatically instead of having to press the 'y'/'n' keys four hundred times :-p
00:31:40 [Philip]
But apart from that, all the implementations except ExplorerCanvas seem to be doing alright so far, so maybe there will actually be interoperable implementations in a few years :-)
00:32:06 [mjs]
I'd like to implement it, but one problem is that getPixelData doesn't support scaling the UI resolution
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01:20:16 [Ryan]
Just out of curiosity who here work for Microsoft?
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03:19:26 [deltab]
Philip: what about Watir or the like? something that can control the browser and take screenshots
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14:49:55 [anne]
mjs, maybe it's better to point out that adding elements to <head> is not really possible in text/html?
14:52:02 [mjs]
anne: depends on what you mean by "not really possible"
14:52:16 [mjs]
HTML5 does add some new elements that are allowed in <head>
14:52:30 [mjs]
but you can't actually use them in <head> if you want to target HTML4 UAs as well
14:52:34 [anne]
well yes, empty elements
14:52:37 [mjs]
but using them outside <head> will generally work fine
14:52:41 [zcorpan_]
should degrade ok so long as they're empty or have an (r)cdata content model that can use the escaped text span hack
14:52:49 [mjs]
HTML5 adds at least one non-empty metadata element
14:52:57 [anne]
oh
14:53:13 [mjs]
do you guys think WebKit should change to treat unknown elements in head as void elements?
14:53:30 [zcorpan_]
no
14:54:13 [anne]
that would make introducing new elements like <section> more complicated as you would have to write <body> before it for compat reasons
14:54:26 [anne]
(assuming we have actual HTML5 UAs)
14:56:02 [zcorpan_]
it's more likely that new body elements will be introduced in the future than new head elements, and having unknown new head elements imply <body> isn't so bad
14:57:54 [mjs]
ok then
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15:23:17 [zcorpan_]
mjs: that metadata element would be <noscript>, right?
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15:28:44 [mjs]
zcorpan_: the one I had in mind is datatemplate
15:29:17 [zcorpan_]
mjs: aha
15:31:21 [zcorpan_]
what is the degradation plan for "<head><datatemplate><rule>anything"?
15:31:48 [mjs]
I think you have to not put datatemplate in the head if you want it to degrade
15:31:48 [anne]
I believe <datetemplate> is one of the features that won't degrade well
15:32:04 [mjs]
I guess in actuality it won't degrade very well no matter what you do
15:32:16 [zcorpan_]
right
15:32:50 [zcorpan_]
so it breaks equally bad in both head and body, so it could well be allowed in head also :)
15:34:26 [anne]
I don't like how RB gets an idea and then leaves it up to us proving it's wrong instead of him doing some homework. Maybe that is not quite an accurate characterization, but something like that is happening and it seems like it wastes a lot of time...
15:36:12 [hsivonen]
FWIW, I did quite a bit of homework before sending the alleged flamebait. And I don't intend to follow up without doing some more homework.
15:42:07 [mjs]
anne, besides that phenomenon he seems to get fixated on bad ideas and changes the grounds of debate midstream to try to make it look like he has a valid point
15:46:18 [mjs]
it is frustrating
15:46:22 [mjs]
I should reply to him less
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19:36:49 [anne]
Philip, I messaged you some stuff regarding philip.html5.org, let me know if you didn't get it
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22:37:46 [Philip]
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Canvas:Text - aha, there's some documentation
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19:48:02 [karl]
http://effbot.org/zone/elementtree-13-intro.htm
19:48:13 [karl]
"The html output method is still a bit experimental, and may be modified somewhat before the final release. Bug reports and other suggestions are welcome."
20:31:32 [karl]
http://blog.vrplumber.com/1940
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20:32:23 [karl]
* require and fund at least one Open Source implementation of each major accessibility technology class (e.g. screen reader, screen magnifier, braille output API) to allow individuals to afford the technology, developers to test against the technology, and institutions/governments to extend it
20:32:33 [karl]
* integrate (Open Source) accessibility technology into authoring tools, in such a way that the developer can see what it is like to interact with their content/application using just that technology
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21:32:48 [karl]
http://web.archive.org/web/19990420065435/webreview.com/wr/pub/98/01/30/studio/index.html
21:32:54 [karl]
Creating Browser-Generated Graphics with Tables
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10:42:29 [anne]
hsivonen, re #whatwg, prolly because Opera Mini itself doesn't actually do the requests
10:44:09 [hsivonen]
anne: the header is X-OperaMini-Phone-UA
10:44:41 [hsivonen]
anne: the User-Agent header has a value that announces itself as Opera first and Opera Mini second
10:46:08 [hsivonen]
so it looks like it is something Opera's back end chooses to forward to the server of origin--not something accidental
10:47:13 [anne]
well, yes (although I'm not sure why), I'm just saying that for Opera Mini Servers bandwidth is likely less of a concern than for desktop browsers
10:47:31 [hsivonen]
good point
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15:32:21 [Icidis]
hello all
15:32:33 [zcorpan_]
hello Icidis
15:32:37 [Icidis]
hey zcorpan_
15:32:48 [Icidis]
is this a support channel for html
15:32:53 [zcorpan_]
no
15:32:56 [Icidis]
aahhhh
15:33:10 [Icidis]
zcorpan_, do u know html?
15:33:23 [zcorpan_]
yes
15:33:31 [Icidis]
could you please help me
15:33:43 [zcorpan_]
depends :)
15:34:02 [Icidis]
ok
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20:47:28 [anne]
Philip, you got APNG tests?
21:10:23 [anne]
Hixie, s/The <code>datatemplate</code> bring/The <code>datatemplate</code> brings/ ?
21:10:31 [anne]
oh, oops
21:10:43 [anne]
should be "element bring[s]"
21:13:57 [Hixie]
i can't find the occurance of that
21:14:05 [Hixie]
context?
21:14:12 [Hixie]
oh i see
21:14:19 [Philip]
anne: Not really - only a small attempt at starting some (http://philip.html5.org/tests/apng/)
21:14:22 [Hixie]
thanks will fix
21:14:40 [anne]
Philip, cool
21:16:27 [Philip]
Hixie: On the subject of spec typos, it needs s/regstrationmark/registrationmark/ in several places
21:19:59 [jgraham]
"If tomplate node is a comment node" s/tomplate/template/
21:21:00 [anne]
hmm, the &{this.firstChild.nodeValue}; syntax in Philip's examples looks interesting
21:21:37 [Hixie]
Philip, jgraham: thanks, both fixed
21:23:12 [Philip]
I don't know how you'd handle {s and }s inside that code
21:23:50 [Philip]
like &{ {'a':1,'b':2}[value] } or &{ "int main() {" }
21:25:25 [Philip]
(I just had {script} before remembering &{script}; and realising it'd be less likely to cause confusion)
21:26:12 [Philip]
(where the {script} comes from copying E4X's attribute expression syntax)
21:26:36 [anne]
XSLT has something like that as well, for XPath expressions
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21:36:40 [Philip]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#attribute-value-templates
21:37:27 [anne]
yup :)
21:38:11 [Philip]
Looks like it has to use an XPath parser to determine where the closing } is
21:39:17 [Philip]
I don't think you'd want to do that for JavaScript, since it's a bit more complex to parse
21:39:55 [anne]
hmm, you probably want to require escaping then...
21:40:02 [anne]
would \{ \} work?
21:43:13 [Philip]
If it parsed '{script}' by skipping over nested '{', '}' pairs in the script, ignoring '\{' and '\}' sequences (except when they're '\\{' etc), I think that'd be flexible enough for JavaScript and similar languages
21:43:33 [Philip]
since those languages only have nested {} pairs, except in strings, and in strings you can write \{ instead and it'll work exactly the same
21:44:08 [anne]
hmm, so both pair counting and escapes... I suppose that would work
21:44:56 [Philip]
(Oh, there's comments as well as strings, since people might write "/* This doesn't work :-{ */" or something, but that shouldn't be very common)
21:46:38 [Philip]
Syntax highlighting text editors would hate this, I guess
21:52:21 [anne]
are they hiliting onload= and such now?
21:58:23 [Philip]
Vim does, but its HTML highlighter can just read from the opening " up to the next " and then pass that string to the JS highlighter, whereas the script macro thing would have to search through properly-nested unescaped characters before it can see where the JS string ends
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21:59:02 [Philip]
Then again, I guess most people parse Perl already, which has complex quoting rules, so maybe they're perfectly happy with this kind of thing
21:59:10 [Philip]
s/people/editors/
21:59:29 [Philip]
s/parse/sort of parse to the extent necessary for mostly-accurate highlighting/
22:19:37 [Hixie]
Philip: so the main problem is that we don't actually want scripting to run during the creation of the generated tree
22:19:43 [Hixie]
since it could _really_ fuck with the UA
22:24:33 [Philip]
Why wouldn't it work if UAs just followed the algorithm and ran the scripts in the text-expansion steps, and if the scripts modify the DOM then weird things may happen but that's just their problem?
22:25:27 [Hixie]
because you could trivially cause an infinite loop
22:25:36 [Hixie]
and the algorithm would never return
22:28:17 [anne]
how is this different from other inifite loops?
22:28:28 [anne]
such as those you can create with document.write()
22:29:04 [Hixie]
document.write() infinite loops always go all the way back to the UA's main event loop before recursing
22:29:08 [Hixie]
as far as i am aware
22:31:57 [Philip]
<div id="data"></div>
22:31:57 [Philip]
<datatemplate id="t">
22:31:57 [Philip]
<rule><div template="#t" ref="#data"></div></rule>
22:31:57 [Philip]
</datatemplate>
22:31:57 [Philip]
<div template="#t" ref="#data"></div>
22:32:04 [Philip]
Is that an infinite loop?
22:32:32 [Hixie]
yes, but again, it goes all the way back to the main event loop before recursing
22:32:52 [Hixie]
so the UA can still remain responsive
22:33:38 [anne]
depending on how you program it, it can always remain responsive, no?
22:33:42 [Philip]
<script>while(1);</script> is an infinite loop too, and UAs already cope with that
22:34:48 [Hixie]
Philip: yeah but that one doesn't involve interrupting UA code
22:35:44 [Philip]
Why can't UA code do the same that the JS interpreter does, to let the user cancel if it's taking too long?
22:36:48 [Hixie]
we could, but i'd be better to design it in such a way that that isn't an issue
22:38:50 [Philip]
Okay, if it can be done without introducing any new issues or making things worse for other constituencies then that would be better :-)
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01:13:13 [Philip]
Actually, the &{...} syntax is rubbish since you'll usually have to write the <datatemplate> in XML to make it parse correctly when you're doing anything non-trivial, so the syntax should be optimised primarily for XML
01:14:14 [Philip]
(but I don't really like plain {...} because then you'd need some new way to write literal { characters)
01:22:03 [Hixie]
yeah i don't know what syntax to use really
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08:25:03 [anne]
mjs, something like sql.onresult = ...; sql.execute(...)?
08:25:45 [anne]
and prolly sql.onerror
08:26:01 [mjs]
anne: or executeSql(callback, statement, arguments...)
08:26:38 [anne]
that's not really in line with other APIs
08:27:04 [anne]
although, timer APIs... :)
08:28:17 [anne]
I suppose it depends on whether you ever want to do more than a single thing with the results
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08:34:48 [mjs]
I am not sure events make sense for this
08:35:35 [mjs]
if the only event is that you finished, I think a single callback that would have been the return value is better
08:36:14 [anne]
the other would be failure, but I suppose you can handle that in the callback as well
08:36:44 [mjs]
well, the sync version presumably expresses failure with a return value
08:37:02 [anne]
or throws, maybe, dunno
08:37:56 [mjs]
either is ok, but if there is a SQL object people will want things like the ability to "prepare" statements or rebind arguments
08:38:08 [anne]
failure doesn't seem to be addressed
08:38:55 [anne]
only if the amount of additional arguments doesn't match the amount of ? characters
08:40:12 [anne]
it doesn't really tell what to do with bogus SQL statements or SQL statements that are valid but are not supported for security reasons etc.
08:40:12 [mjs]
true
08:40:26 [mjs]
SQL statements can fail for all sorts of reasons
08:40:36 [mjs]
invalid row ID in a query for instance
08:40:40 [anne]
that too isn't addressed
08:40:56 [mjs]
are you gonna send this to the list?
08:41:20 [anne]
I suppose I can quickly e-mail the WHATWG, sure
08:41:32 [mjs]
thanks
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01:19:25 [anne]
Hixie, I think the W3C thingie about video is about video formats and not embedding mechanisms
01:20:24 [Hixie]
oh they're gonna solve our codec problem? sweet!
01:22:59 [anne]
it would certainly be nice if it worked
01:23:15 [Hixie]
what made you think it was about video formats?
01:23:54 [Hixie]
and why does wanadoo block Freenode?
01:24:44 [anne]
http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/09/video-on-the-web.html made me think it was about formats (also the fact that the the W3C already has several embedding mechanisms for it)
01:25:51 [Hixie]
how odd
01:26:47 [anne]
not sure about wanadoo and freenode, never thought it was wanadoo's fault actually
01:27:13 [Hixie]
oh could be freenode blocking abusers on wanadoo, true
01:27:27 [Hixie]
i'm very confused as to what the w3c think they're gonna do with video
01:28:07 [anne]
if they can get the relevant patent holders together and do something I suppose it might help, but dunno really
01:28:32 [Hixie]
the relevant patent holders are all happily in the MPEG standards consortium already
01:28:37 [Hixie]
as far as i can tell
01:28:40 [Hixie]
and there they get to earn money
01:36:16 [marcos]
Darn... those MPEG guys are getting rich!? I knew I joined the wrong consortium! :P
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12:23:09 [MikeSmith]
amen to Jukka Korpela's www-html posting about layout tables in HTML -
12:23:12 [MikeSmith]
http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.SOC.4.64.0709221458330.442@hopeatilhi.cs.tut.fi
12:25:51 [hsivonen]
MikeSmith: I get 404
12:26:24 [hsivonen]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Sep/0028.html seems to work
12:26:40 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen - hmm, I got 404 the message ID link too
12:26:43 [MikeSmith]
dunno why
12:27:11 [MikeSmith]
anyway, "using tables for layout is absolutely bad" seems to me another in the list of dogmatic/religious principles that many people have just unquestionaly accepted, as if it's axiomatic
12:28:43 [hsivonen]
yeah
12:32:22 [hsivonen]
even more axiomatic is the notion that tables are so bad that even CSS tables are bad
12:32:25 [hsivonen]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2002Feb/0125.html
12:33:20 [MikeSmith]
heh
12:35:33 [MikeSmith]
I guess there's some consistency in that position at least.
12:37:06 [MikeSmith]
I mean, I wonder if you were to ask many don't-use-tables-for-layout advocates why it's OK to use CSS tables instead, they might have a hard time giving you a sensible explanation
12:37:58 [Sander]
I'd suspect many would be able to put forth the notion that CSS doesn't pretend to hold any _meaning_
12:39:00 [krijn]
The don't-use-table-for-layout people are responsible for a lot of work and jobs though :)
12:39:04 [Sander]
Of course, practically speaking tables (whether CSS or HTML) are bad just because doing major maintaining on a website with them is hell.
12:39:38 [hsivonen]
Sander: if you are a markup consumer, you are better off not trusting that tables have meaning
12:39:46 [hsivonen]
of course, this fails sometimes
12:40:20 [hsivonen]
like in Opera for Mobile one of the subtables in reittiopas.fi results would be better unlinearized
12:40:42 [hsivonen]
but still, most of the time, linealization is a better guess
12:41:06 [hsivonen]
now, making site authors cooperate by getting rid of layout tables is unrealistic
12:42:27 [hsivonen]
flagging real data tables in what might actually work
12:43:26 [hsivonen]
the table layout model is useful
12:43:34 [hsivonen]
(on large displays)
12:44:03 [hsivonen]
and doing it in CSS only has a bad compat story with legacy browsers and even the current IE
12:46:54 [hsivonen]
from the HTML5 draft: "Big Issue: we need some editorial text on how layout tables are bad practice and non-conforming"
12:47:52 [hsivonen]
Sander: maintaining a complex float system isn't exactly non-hell
12:48:12 [hsivonen]
and positioning severely sucks from the user perspective
12:48:15 [krijn]
I'd say that's more hell :)
12:48:51 [Sander]
I don't know - Maybe my mind is wired weirdly, but I find float layouts far easier to conceptualize and maintain than I ever did for tables.
12:50:05 [hsivonen]
also, some well-intentioned float layout are actually worse than table-based layouts in cases where the ratio of the font size and the viewport width is unexpected to the author
12:50:29 [hsivonen]
for example, if you have 800px wide screen and 20px font size on N800
12:51:01 [hsivonen]
because float sites tend to fix the size of a sidebar in ems
12:51:06 [hsivonen]
and leave the rest to content
12:51:21 [hsivonen]
well, sucks to be the user when the content column shrinks close to zero
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12:56:12 [MikeSmith]
maybe we can rename the table element to "box"
12:56:22 [MikeSmith]
then we could call it the "box model"
12:56:58 [beowulf]
i've often wondered why we shun tables for layout when they accurately map to a design grid
13:02:43 [krijn]
To help CSS (or standards aware) developers get a job
13:04:40 [MikeSmith]
as as far as CSS tables, the argument for not using tables for layout would be a lot more compelling if IE supports CSS tables; but as long as IE doesn't, it's pretty unrealistic to expect that anyone can convince most authors to completely avoid using table markup for layout purposes
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13:23:47 [beowulf]
i probably should rephrase what i said there...
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15:06:22 [anne]
hsivonen, subscribed to www-archive? :)
15:06:30 [hsivonen]
anne: yes
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15:15:58 [anne]
seems the irc logger has disappared...
15:16:13 [anne]
well, this channel still has RRSAgent but #whatwg doesn't...
15:23:21 [tH]
RRSAgent, pointer
15:23:21 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T15-23-21
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15:51:06 [zcorpan_]
anne: irc works :)
15:51:06 [anne]
hi simon
15:51:10 [anne]
hehe
15:52:15 [anne]
i agree with your e-mail to public-html btw, limiting the amount of ways to do things with ARIA
15:53:14 [zcorpan_]
anne: i disagree that it is clearer for authors. it would have been clearer if it was prefixless from the beginning
15:53:18 [anne]
but not as a black / white axiom
15:53:47 [anne]
hmm, 1) hardly any author knows ARIA 2) authors might confuse the foo:bar syntax with namespaces
15:54:33 [zcorpan_]
right, but i'm afraid the foo:bar syntax won't go away
15:54:40 [anne]
in fact, if authors still don't get a clue about HTML vs XHTML you get stuff like xmlns:role=... in HTML and role=role:foo and bug reports
15:55:35 [anne]
yeah, but that's not really a problem I think
15:55:49 [anne]
supporting wairole:foo besides foo is just some type of error handling
15:56:20 [anne]
and a very trivial one at that switch(role){ case:"wairole:foo": case:"foo" etc.
15:56:44 [zcorpan_]
sure
15:57:30 [zcorpan_]
but in my book it's the <abbr> vs <acronym> mistake all over again
15:57:52 [anne]
i'm not sure how it's anything like that
15:58:21 [zcorpan_]
"abbr" and "acronym" are two opaque strings. they mean the same thing
15:58:37 [zcorpan_]
"foo" and "wairole:foo" are two opaque strings that mean the same thing
15:58:40 [anne]
not when they were invented
15:59:28 [anne]
<acronym> and <abbr> were intended to have (or maybe have) different meaning
15:59:48 [anne]
here we just make up a convenient alias
16:00:00 [anne]
like rel=archive versus rel=archives
16:00:09 [zcorpan_]
could be but it has caused endless discussions, and i fear that foo vs wairole:foo might end up the same
16:00:38 [zcorpan_]
(fwiw i thought that netscape invented abbr and ms invented acronym for the same, and html4 specced them differently)
16:00:38 [anne]
why, the specification would simply state that wairole:foo is an alias for foo for historial reasons...
16:01:03 [anne]
(oh, didn't hear about that version of abbr/acronym, interesting)
16:01:51 [zcorpan_]
can't the spec instead say that it is spelled wairole:foo and nothing else (for historical reasons)
16:04:27 [anne]
what's the benefit over not providing an alias?
16:05:01 [zcorpan_]
there will only be one way to do it
16:05:24 [zcorpan_]
even though the spec might say that one is non-conforming, Dojo already uses wairole:foo and it will probably be copied
16:06:40 [zcorpan_]
same reason we don't introduce <h> as an alias for <h1>
16:06:44 [zcorpan_]
:)
16:07:01 [zcorpan_]
but at a different scale
16:08:30 [zcorpan_]
(hmm, did you mean s/not //?)
16:08:53 [anne]
yeah
16:10:19 [anne]
i'm not really convinced
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16:11:52 [zcorpan_]
what does it take to convince you? :)
16:12:01 [anne]
Anyway, I'm actually more interested in what aaronlev alluded to in his post, trying to get people to make changes in their early deployments so we can make things simpler
16:12:42 [zcorpan_]
yeah, me too
16:14:44 [anne]
I'm not convinced because: 1) ARIA is not widely deployed 1a) there are almost no tutorials 1b) almost no sites using it 2) there's only a single implementation so far, other browser may be able to let people shift 3) there's an opportunity to make the syntax more convenient for authors at almost no cost at the expense of theoretical debates to the great heights we had debates about acronym and abbr (but that theory is just that and remains
16:14:44 [anne]
unproven so far)
16:16:07 [zcorpan_]
ok. yeah, perhaps the prefixed names will indeed die. then it would be worth it
16:26:49 [zcorpan_]
anne: could you join #whatwg?
16:31:36 [anne]
either freenode drops wanadoo or vice versa and since I'm on wanadoo atm, that won't be possible
16:31:52 [anne]
(I can connect for a few minutes mostly and then it drops)
16:32:42 [zcorpan_]
anne: making prefixed names non-conforming won't fly with the PF group
16:34:24 [anne]
do we care?
16:34:29 [anne]
also, what's their reasoning behind that?
16:37:02 [anne]
btw, if aaronlev is in #whatwg, maybe he can join #html-wg?
16:37:11 [anne]
or was that not the reason?
16:38:21 [aaronlev]
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16:42:42 [zcorpan_]
did i miss something? :)
16:42:53 [anne]
me wondering where you went
16:43:18 [zcorpan_]
ok
16:43:20 [anne]
oh, and aaronlev joined the channel :)
16:46:20 [zcorpan_]
ok. so in order for unprefixed names to "take over", the prefixed names should be non-conforming
16:46:54 [zcorpan_]
but the pf group wants to keep the namespaces for the extensibility idea, aiui
16:47:21 [anne]
can't we solve extensibility when it's needed?
16:47:54 [anne]
(keeping in mind that the proposal to not use prefixes does _not_ preclude extensibility in any way)
16:48:13 [hsivonen]
would I get slapped if I made html5.validator.nu accept non-prefixed values but whine about the prefixed values?
16:49:43 [anne]
as I see it role= is not the perfect solution but it might just solve a set of problems for some people; the idea as such need not be as complicated as it currently is
16:50:29 [anne]
and given that it's not that widely deployed yet, adjustments can be made
16:50:51 [anne]
(and are being made, to the Firefox codebase for instance)
16:51:38 [zcorpan_]
yeah, i'm all for making it simpler, but i fear that we are introducing more ways to do things and will be unable to remove the other way of doing things, ending up being stuck with multiple ways to do things
16:52:11 [zcorpan_]
and that would suck more than having only one slightly ugly way to do things
16:52:16 [anne]
as long as one is flagged as non-conforming this is not really problematic
16:59:16 [zcorpan_]
hmm, this could work while still having the pf group happy: only unprefixed names are allowed when no namespace declarations are used. the "wairole:foo" names are only conforming if there's a namespace declaration for it
16:59:39 [zcorpan_]
then "wairole:foo" would be invalid in html because html doesn't have namespace declarations
17:00:09 [anne]
fyi: i'm not happy with qnames at all
17:00:21 [zcorpan_]
me neither
17:00:25 [anne]
s/fyi/fwiw/
17:00:35 [anne]
so I don't think we should go down that path
17:01:05 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: are you ok with having only unprefixed names be conforming?
17:01:53 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: even when the host language supports namespaces?
17:01:59 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yes
17:02:12 [aaronlev]
i just don't think you will get support for that from pf
17:02:48 [aaronlev]
the only part i care about really is allowing the easy way
17:03:00 [aaronlev]
whioch i think will very likely eventually become the only want
17:03:04 [aaronlev]
s/want/way
17:03:13 [aaronlev]
but i can't prove it or guarantee it in any way
17:03:20 [zcorpan_]
ok
17:03:36 [anne]
it seems weird to me that pf has so much influence on this when there's no real proven value for their solution
17:04:05 [aaronlev]
they're developing the ARIA spec
17:04:23 [aaronlev]
i think it's pretty obvious they should influence it
17:04:44 [aaronlev]
i just feel like this puts me in the middle of the namespace fight
17:04:49 [aaronlev]
which i don't care to be in at all
17:04:54 [anne]
hmm, XHTML2 influences HTML5 too, that doesn't mean we take it over literally...
17:05:02 [anne]
aaronlev, understood, nobody wants that :)
17:09:28 [aaronlev]
anne: but is there still an xhtml 2 group?
17:09:44 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yes
17:09:56 [aaronlev]
anne: they initially created the role attribute
17:10:11 [aaronlev]
so there's a bit of a pull between what they say and what this group says
17:10:32 [aaronlev]
if we want to win this then we should suggest how unknown roles can have a URL associated with them
17:10:36 [aaronlev]
e.g. through the profile attribute or something
17:10:47 [aaronlev]
so a definition could someday be provided
17:10:49 [hsivonen]
it would probably be wise not to stir the namespace stuff too much right now
17:11:02 [aaronlev]
right, that's why i'm trying to do the most important stuff first
17:11:12 [aaronlev]
this part seems less important to me
17:11:53 [aaronlev]
because if we stir the controvery too then maybe the more important change will somehow get delayed in all of that
17:12:32 [anne]
i guess i'm ok with implementing as we think it should work and working out the compat details later...
17:12:44 [anne]
but it's prolly good to solve those too
17:12:58 [aaronlev]
anne: yeah
17:13:00 [anne]
anyway, I just mentioned I had to go :)
17:13:51 [zcorpan_]
we should draft up a spec also, i think we agree on the overall design
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18:04:35 [anne]
it's back
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19:14:09 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: does firefox support the predefined roles in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/ ?
19:15:10 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: we expose them, but since they do not match roles used in a11y Apis today, we expose them as role string
19:15:24 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: so it is up to the assistive technology to decide what to do with them
19:15:30 [zcorpan_]
ok
19:15:34 [aaronlev]
and that work is moving more slowly than widget support etc.
19:16:35 [zcorpan_]
anne: the ua conformance criteria is even funnier
19:17:07 [anne]
(besides the fact that it requires an actual xmlns attribute and such which sort of makes DOM usage harder)
19:18:20 [anne]
zcorpan_, indeed :)
19:19:28 [zcorpan_]
ok, now i want to draft a spec for what we have so far
19:19:35 [zcorpan_]
where's the right place to do that
19:19:50 [zcorpan_]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML somewhere?
19:20:02 [anne]
simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
19:20:21 [zcorpan_]
that works
19:20:41 [anne]
that at least allows pure plain text or normal HTML
19:20:49 [anne]
it also implies you're the editor :p
19:21:52 [anne]
I think I'll write a blogpost, although my blog might have too much topics on it with impact on accessibility; seems to attract a lot of negativity :(
19:28:36 [hsivonen]
perhaps it is better not to attract negativity in this case
19:29:00 [anne]
mwaj, we'll see how it goes
19:29:38 [anne]
it sort of worked out eventually in the previous post, I think; I quite liked it that some people not active in the WHATWG jumped in as well and shared their opinion
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19:43:53 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: are there aria roles that don't map to any a11y api? if so, what do you do with them? expose the role string, or also the namespace, or something else?
19:50:38 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: we expose the role string. if it has a prefix and isn't a wairole, we expose the prefix
19:51:11 [aaronlev]
the prefix is useless of course
19:51:19 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: but since we don't really support role extensibility (non-wai roles), the fact that we expose something better doesn't matter yet
19:51:43 [zcorpan_]
ok. so role="wairole:banner" is the same as role="banner"
20:21:31 [zcorpan_]
http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
20:33:27 [anne]
my more rant than outlining proposal: http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/aria
20:36:00 [anne]
feedback welcome btw
20:39:17 [Sander]
anne: nitpick: "I like how I want so far with this" doesn't parse.
20:39:48 [anne]
how about s/want/went/
20:39:52 [anne]
?
20:40:00 [Sander]
feels clunky
20:40:24 [anne]
i'll just drop it then
20:40:31 [Sander]
I understand what you mean by it though. *tries to find a better way to rephrase*
20:40:44 [anne]
dropping it seems fine, thanks
20:40:54 [Sander]
ok :)
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20:44:14 [zcorpan_]
good thing that all states and properties are all lowercase
20:45:16 [anne]
wouldn't matter much unless you had Foo and foo
20:45:24 [anne]
which is unlikely
20:46:33 [zcorpan_]
it would be ugly to have aria-foo="bar" and aaa:Foo="bar" to represent the Foo state
20:47:43 [anne]
you mean to have aaa:Foo represent the foo state :p
20:48:36 [zcorpan_]
well, that would also be ugly, but i meant if there was a Foo state. can't have aria-Foo attributes in html. :)
20:49:25 [Hixie]
zcorpan_: you're rewriting the role spec to actually say what should happen? :-)
20:49:39 [zcorpan_]
Hixie: yes. also the aria specs
20:49:41 [zcorpan_]
:)
20:50:19 [zcorpan_]
otherwise i can't write any testcases
20:50:34 [zcorpan_]
the role module spec has 0 conformance criteria
20:50:46 [zcorpan_]
(for UAs)
20:51:21 [zcorpan_]
and the aria specs build on top of the role module
20:51:23 [Hixie]
zcorpan_: sweet, i look forward to finding out what these attributes have actually been supposed to do
20:52:01 [zcorpan_]
stay tuned :)
20:52:42 [anne]
bah, Firefox still doesn't imply <body> with <section> or <foobar>
20:53:33 [zcorpan_]
<foo> and <head><foo> are different
20:53:38 [emeriste]
Hello everyone, has there been any discussion about making it easy to put mathematics on websites with simple HTML ?
20:53:38 [zcorpan_]
apparently :|
20:53:44 [anne]
bah
20:54:07 [anne]
emeriste, not since last time ;)
20:54:20 [zcorpan_]
emeriste: not sure about simple, but possible at least :)
20:54:24 [emeriste]
Oh that is a shame. I hope that maybe people will start to think about that. :)
20:54:30 [emeriste]
Oh good zcorpan!
20:54:46 [emeriste]
zcorpan - Is it an issue that you are concerned with?
20:54:56 [zcorpan_]
not really to be honest
20:55:25 [emeriste]
zcorpan -- I can tell you this - Right now it is not simple to put mathematics on a webpage. If you could work out a way to make html do that in the same easy to do way that we can put a <table> on a webpage, then you would really be making the world a better place.
20:55:40 [zcorpan_]
search for "mathml html5"
20:55:58 [zcorpan_]
and you'll waste a lot of your time ;)
20:56:11 [emeriste]
I spent a little time playing with mathml.
20:56:29 [mjs]
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20:56:54 [zcorpan_]
does anyone know if anything happened with mozilla's experiment with mathml in html?
20:57:19 [Hixie]
mathml is one of the issues on hte list at http://whatwg.org/issues/
20:57:27 [emeriste]
Here's my idea: Have simple html tags like <math> . Between <math> you put some kind of syntax used to describe your mathematics (probably mathml code) . Then the browser knows to draw math symbols.
20:58:03 [mjs]
emeriste: you've brought this issue up many times now in the past few days
20:58:05 [emeriste]
This way it is just as easy to put math on a page as it is to put a table on your page.
20:58:08 [mjs]
emeriste: do you have anything new to add?
20:58:08 [anne]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353926 suggests no
20:58:21 [emeriste]
mjs -- Just to be fair, it hasn't been the last few days. I wait at least a week each time.
20:58:23 [zcorpan_]
anne: ok
20:58:37 [mjs]
emeriste: ok, bringing it up every week is not particularly constructive either
20:58:42 [Hixie]
emeriste: if you want your idea to be considered, please either mail the htmlwg list (public-html@w3.org) or the whatwg list (whatwg@whatwg.org) or, if you don't want to join the mailing lists, mail me directly (ian@hixie.ch)
20:58:44 [mjs]
emeriste: unless you have new information to add
20:58:49 [Hixie]
emeriste: ideas suggested on irc go nowhere
20:58:55 [Hixie]
emeriste: since we forget :-)
20:59:00 [emeriste]
I see, how can we be more constructive. We need to encourage the people with influence (that's you) to do something about this.
20:59:26 [Hixie]
emeriste: also, once an idea has been suggested (this idea has already been suggested many times, see http://whatwg.org/issues/) then it goes on the list and it can be years before it is addressed
20:59:27 [emeriste]
Okay I will mail it. Thanks for the direction on that.
20:59:31 [Hixie]
emeriste: because we have so much to look at
20:59:38 [mjs]
adding math support to HTML is already listed as an issue
20:59:53 [emeriste]
The fact that it has been suggested many times is indicative of something . . . . .
20:59:55 [Hixie]
emeriste: (there are 1000s of e-mails on the list, as you can see, many of which are far more pressing than mathml in html)
21:00:15 [anne]
emeriste, I suppose one way to contribute is telling how you'd like to write math and such, prolly taking mathml into account etc.
21:01:26 [emeriste]
The Internet is the modern world's equivalent of the printing press. You are the new Gutenburgs. The work you do is profound in its implications in ways that cannot even be predicted or imagined.
21:02:32 [emeriste]
I can think of nothing more pressing than to facilitate the transmission of mathematical and scientific ideas.
21:02:46 [mjs]
emeriste: one useful way to contribute would be an informed evaluation of whether MathML is good enough for math markup, or if some alternate syntax would be much better
21:02:52 [Hixie]
emeriste: then you are probably out of touch with the development of the web :-)
21:03:04 [Hixie]
emeriste: e.g. cross-site communication is far more pressing
21:03:12 [Hixie]
emeriste: as is the development of offline web applications
21:03:30 [Hixie]
emeriste: making html tables more usable to people who don't have graphical displays is also more important
21:03:30 [emeriste]
It was probably a mistake that it's been over looked this long.
21:03:44 [mjs]
emeriste: you could also ask browsers vendors why they haven't yet implemented MathML, which has been a standard for years, and maybe they can explain why it hasn't risen to the top of the priority list
21:04:06 [emeriste]
Okay I'll badger the vendors aggressively.
21:04:16 [Hixie]
or you could ask browser vendors who _have_ implemented it (firefox) why nobody uses it
21:04:17 [emeriste]
I want to be able to write neat math web pages for my students.
21:04:27 [Hixie]
you can use mathml+xhtml today in firefox
21:04:30 [Hixie]
and it works great
21:04:37 [emeriste]
It's byzantine.
21:05:58 [Hixie]
it's maths
21:06:08 [emeriste]
It's the xhmtl part that is no good.
21:06:28 [emeriste]
mathml is probably okay (I guess I would have chosen LaTeX but I'm not picky).
21:06:38 [Hixie]
well then you'll have to wait for html to get math
21:06:41 [Hixie]
which might be years
21:06:44 [Hixie]
anyway, gotta go shower
21:06:46 [Hixie]
later
21:06:51 [emeriste]
Why is that so hard to include math into html?
21:06:57 [anne]
Jacques Distler on the suggestion that people should not photoblog: "Saying that people shouldn't post photos from their cell phones, or blog from their cell phones or whatever is a paradigmatic example of spitting into the wind. Be my guest, if that's the sort of masochism you're into." :)
21:07:05 [emeriste]
Why don't you just take what mathml has done completely and put it in there?
21:07:33 [anne]
in the same entry he says that writing MathML is too hard, period
21:07:36 [anne]
fwiw
21:07:52 [anne]
http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/alt#comment-6220
21:07:58 [emeriste]
Well MathML is not intended to be coded by hand.
21:08:04 [emeriste]
And at least that part I'm okay with.
21:08:10 [anne]
"I hate to break it to you, buddy, but that's what the overwhelming majority of people do. Nobody uses MathML, because doing so is too hard. Nearly everyone uses images of their equations (or punts, and posts a PDF file). Telling then that they are wrong, and that they should use MathML instead, is another example of spitting into the wind."
21:08:11 [zcorpan_]
neither was html
21:08:50 [anne]
you want to code it by hand, methinks
21:08:51 [emeriste]
The problem with using MathML is that you need to do all kinds of strange things like stylesheets and .xml and mimetypes and namespaces and other things which are needless and confusing, but completely unforgiving.
21:09:36 [emeriste]
I would like to code it by hand in simple cases.
21:09:49 [emeriste]
but that is not realistic because mathml is baroque.
21:10:16 [emeriste]
It is very tedious to code a simple mathematical expression by hand.
21:10:36 [emeriste]
Fortunately there are applications which convert LaTeX to MathML.
21:10:59 [mjs]
if you think MathML is a bad syntax then you should make an alternate proposal
21:11:12 [mjs]
coming in every week and saying the same stuff is not helpful
21:11:27 [mjs]
asking other people to invent something instead of making a proposal yourself is also not helpful
21:11:29 [emeriste]
I propose an html tag <math> and between <math></math> you put LaTeX-like code.
21:11:30 [Philip]
http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/presentational.xhtml is pretty much plain XHTML, with no interesting stylesheets or anything, just with a different doctype and some <math xmlns=...> and with the file renamed to .xhtml, which isn't all that complex
21:11:37 [mjs]
don't propose here
21:11:41 [mjs]
send it to a mailing list
21:12:11 [emeriste]
Philip - You listed a lot of things and some of them are not trivial things.
21:12:13 [anne]
fwiw, something like <latex> is unlikely to work as it's designed for formatting for print and not for the web (afaict)
21:12:41 [zcorpan_]
Philip: could you make that page not rely on external entities? :)
21:13:01 [hsivonen]
anne: cache-consistency with your blog doesn't work transparently in Firefox.
21:13:14 [hsivonen]
anne: do you have bad headers or is Firefox being bad?
21:13:22 [anne]
hsivonen, I think you asked me before
21:13:29 [hsivonen]
oh.
21:13:31 [hsivonen]
I forget
21:13:44 [anne]
but maybe they all switched to Opera :p
21:13:57 [emeriste]
Okay I will look into mailing lists, and I will start to lobby the vendors. Thanks for the advice.
21:14:06 [Philip]
zcorpan_: Just because your browser doesn't support them? :-P
21:14:08 [emeriste]
I'll come back in 2 weeks to talk to you guys about this again. See you.
21:14:28 [mjs]
please don't come back in 2 weeks unless you have something new to add
21:14:35 [zcorpan_]
Philip: that and because you're a bozo if my browser doesn't support them ;)
21:14:42 [emeriste]
I'll tell you what I heard from the Vendors.
21:14:58 [mjs]
why don't you send that to the mailing list, if there is any interesting info?
21:15:25 [anne]
entities in XML... hmm
21:15:30 [Philip]
zcorpan_: http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/presentational-noent.xhtml ?
21:15:37 [emeriste]
I'm sure you guys have influence. If you start to realize how much we want to do this then I'm sure it will happen.
21:16:07 [Philip]
Hmm, the obvious problem with LaTeX-to-SVG is that I have a typo in my equation and it'd take far too much effort to correct it since I don't have decent tools to handle it :-(
21:16:12 [anne]
it actually renders better in Opera than Firefox because I'm prolly missing some font or something
21:16:39 [zcorpan_]
Philip: that's better, but why did you create a new page?
21:16:45 [emeriste]
LaTeX to SVG is different than making png's ?
21:16:50 [Philip]
(http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/svg.xhtml being the SVG one)
21:16:56 [anne]
emeriste, it scales
21:17:04 [emeriste]
Oh well that's pretty cool.
21:18:00 [Philip]
zcorpan_: Because the first one ought to work, in theory
21:18:30 [emeriste]
Does it also use a transparent background?
21:18:54 [zcorpan_]
Philip: only if you know that the consumer loads external entities which is optional in xml
21:19:10 [Philip]
emeriste: Yes
21:19:18 [anne]
I wonder if we should simply expand the amount of "known" entities in XML...
21:19:22 [emeriste]
Hm.. That's really good..
21:19:27 [emeriste]
Maybe this is a good solution.
21:19:33 [hsivonen]
Philip: theoretical reasoning from XML should lead to a conclusion that only the predefined entities are safe
21:20:11 [zcorpan_]
anne: in xml5, yeah
21:20:47 [hsivonen]
validator.nu finally shows source for HTML
21:20:56 [hsivonen]
links and XML support not done yet
21:22:15 [anne]
hsivonen, if it shows the source, it would be nice if it also provides pointers to the errors
21:22:29 [Philip]
MathML defines a load of entities, which is kind of pointless if they're not supported, hence I'll pretend that they are supported :-)
21:22:37 [hsivonen]
anne: that's "links not done yet" ;-)
21:22:41 [anne]
oh
21:24:29 [hsivonen]
Philip: XML vocabulary defines stuff that isn't a good match for XML. Film at 11.
21:25:56 [Philip]
http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/mathml/mmlextra.ent - Content-Type: chemical/x-pdb - huh?
21:26:21 [hsivonen]
Philip: cool! that's a new one ;-)
21:26:39 [Philip]
Hmm, looks like MathML2 doesn't actually define &Integral; or &pi; or anything useful like that, unless it's hiding somewhere
21:27:48 [Philip]
Oh, whoops, it's hiding in http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/mathml/mmlalias.ent
21:28:06 [Philip]
Uh, &Integral; is
21:29:33 [Philip]
Ah, &pi; is normal HTML, but for some reason Opera displays the text "ei&pi;+1=0" to me
21:31:11 [anne]
probably because it's XML and not HTML...
21:31:25 [zcorpan_]
Philip: we don't recognize the FPI, so only the five predefined entities are supported
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21:31:41 [anne]
XML + entities -> bad
21:32:06 [zcorpan_]
by extension, doctypes in xml -> bad
21:32:13 [zcorpan_]
:)
21:32:19 [anne]
in general, XML -> bad
21:32:45 [hsivonen]
anne: overton window overflow error
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21:37:13 [Philip]
(These DTDs aren't really the easiest things in the world to read)
21:38:09 [anne]
for some reason validation was important back when XML was designed
21:38:41 [Philip]
http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/iso9573-13/isogrk3.ent - aha, there's a &pi;
21:39:54 [Philip]
I don't see why web browsers can't just download these three million DTD module files whenever they look at a document and want to parse all the entities
21:44:15 [hsivonen]
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/entity-management/
21:46:14 [Philip]
By the way, is it possible to make the equations in http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/svg.xhtml scale with the font size in Firefox?
21:46:44 [hsivonen]
Philip: the patch might be on trunk
21:46:54 [Hixie]
4821
21:47:41 [hsivonen]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305859
21:48:37 [hsivonen]
Hixie: MicroB seems to have a zoom that scales images, too.
21:49:18 [Hixie]
microb?
21:49:38 [Philip]
Hmm, in WebKit the SVG text scales but its container doesn't, so it overlaps the rest of the text
21:50:00 [hsivonen]
Hixie: the Maemo port of Gecko that timeless is working on
21:50:52 [hsivonen]
Philip: Jacques Distler has a workaround that I used in my thesis
21:51:39 [hsivonen]
Philip: if you put an em-sized XHTML element around the SVG element, you can make the XHTML element scale with text and then make <svg> percent relative to parent
21:51:42 [anne]
hmm, more <canvas> issues
21:51:46 [Philip]
I'll have to look into that if I ever attempt to do something serious with this :-)
21:51:54 [mjs]
the SVG text is tragically non-selectable in Safari
21:52:06 [hsivonen]
the svg text is not text
21:52:43 [Philip]
About rect path-clearing in Firefox: I have a patch to fix that, so maybe they'd accept that for FF3
21:52:46 [zcorpan_]
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21:53:14 [zcorpan_]
seems mozilla treats unknown tags as empty elements in head
21:53:28 [mjs]
oh, the characters are all paths?
21:53:29 [mjs]
that sucks
21:53:51 [hsivonen]
mjs: sucks but works visually better than most alternatives
21:54:06 [mjs]
anne: perhaps the standard should just be changed to be Firefox-compliant
21:54:22 [anne]
could be a oneliner
21:54:39 [anne]
"See lxr.mozilla.org for more information. It's all normative."
21:54:56 [anne]
maybe two
21:55:13 [anne]
"Any license incompatibilities are for your own risk."
21:55:56 [Hixie]
wow
21:56:01 [mjs]
hsivonen: positioning SVG text won't work well? It would at least give better text quality, assuming availability of an appropriate font
21:56:21 [Hixie]
sure glad i'm no longer working on xmlhttprequest
21:56:30 [Hixie]
can't wait for the equivalent e-mail for html5 though!
21:56:31 [Hixie]
sheesh
21:57:12 [anne]
ah, they e-mailed it to the member list now
22:00:15 [hsivonen]
mjs: In my experience the only thing that works is using Inkscape or a text editor and using the center point of an SVG text run as reference
22:00:22 [hsivonen]
mjs: Illustrator sucks
22:00:30 [hsivonen]
mjs: OmniGraffle Pro sucks
22:00:47 [hsivonen]
mjs: this stuff is *so* not ready for prime time :-(
22:00:54 [Hixie]
anne: how exciting
22:01:02 [Hixie]
anne: are they scared of publishing it or something?
22:01:18 [anne]
I guess, it's rather controversial :)
22:01:22 [Hixie]
it's weird how they seem stuck in the 90s
22:01:31 [Hixie]
"don't define it in detail! aah!"
22:02:39 [mjs]
are there any features in the XHR1 spec that aren't in any implementation?
22:02:56 [Hixie]
the error codes and constants, i imagine
22:02:59 [anne]
yeah
22:03:12 [anne]
both added on request from implementors...
22:03:29 [Hixie]
and both important
22:03:29 [mjs]
that doesn't seem to be their complaint though
22:03:45 [Hixie]
mjs: they mentioned both, i think
22:03:54 [anne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webapi/2007Sep/0001.html
22:03:54 [mjs]
member-webapi
22:03:58 [Hixie]
they certainly mentioned the errors
22:04:05 [hsivonen]
thanks
22:04:21 [Hixie]
i was also amused by their request that it be versioned
22:04:35 [Hixie]
woah
22:04:44 [Hixie]
XMLHttpRequestException isn't a DOMException?
22:05:21 [anne]
it should just be the same, actually
22:05:30 [anne]
like HTMLDocument and Document
22:05:53 [Philip]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296904
22:05:53 [Hixie]
drop the interface definition
22:05:57 [Hixie]
and just define the constants
22:06:15 [Hixie]
and say somewhere that when you say to raise an exception, you mean a DOMException object
22:06:45 [anne]
k, cool
22:07:06 [Hixie]
we'll have to update dom3 core at some point to add all the new exception codes
22:07:16 [Hixie]
i haven't added any yet but i could do with a dozen or so new ones for html5
22:07:27 [anne]
maybe I should simply add SECURITY_ERR = 17 to XHR for the moment...
22:07:34 [anne]
if it's as simple as that
22:07:41 [Hixie]
mmm
22:07:43 [Hixie]
SECURITY_ERR
22:07:47 [Hixie]
that's one of the ones i need :-)
22:07:53 [Hixie]
isn't 17 used up?
22:07:59 [Hixie]
anyway
22:07:59 [anne]
oh, maybe 18 then
22:08:08 [anne]
you e-mailed a proposal for that one at some point
22:08:12 [Hixie]
i thought a bunch of the lower numbers were used up by one of the other specs
22:08:17 [Hixie]
ah
22:08:22 [Hixie]
how forward-thinking of me
22:08:35 [anne]
18 indeed
22:08:47 [anne]
0-50 is reserved for DOMCore
22:09:03 [anne]
there's some data on that somewhere, but I'm not sure how much it matters
22:09:14 [anne]
it's what the old DOM WG came up with
22:09:21 [Hixie]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2006May/0027.html
22:09:22 [Hixie]
interestin
22:09:31 [Hixie]
well anyway
22:09:38 [Hixie]
we are gonna need to revamp DOM3 Core at some point
22:09:51 [Hixie]
but i guess we'd better start collecting the exception codes somewhere
22:09:53 [Hixie]
in a wiki or something
22:10:27 [anne]
i've been thinking about naming it something differently from "dom3 core" something like "Web DOM" as to not irritate other consumers of the DOM specifications
22:10:43 [zcorpan_]
DOM5 Core
22:10:48 [anne]
of course, as for doing actual work on the spec...
22:11:28 [Hixie]
Web DOM5
22:11:34 [Hixie]
zcorpan_: hah
22:13:53 [Hixie]
http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Exception_Codes
22:13:54 [Hixie]
there
22:14:00 [Hixie]
we can now track exception codes and prevent clashes
22:14:08 [Hixie]
if anyone knows of an exception code that isn't on that list, add it
22:20:31 [mjs]
DOM3 Core does need some serious revision for web use
22:20:55 [Hixie]
Web DOM5
22:21:10 [Hixie]
i'll get right on that after html5, css5, svg5, http5...
22:21:19 [Hixie]
is anne still working on xml5?
22:21:34 [anne]
yeah, but some other work got in the way
22:21:34 [Hixie]
bbiab, afk
22:21:52 [anne]
anyway, going to bed
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,;,/
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08:25:06 [anne]
Hixie, why Array and not DOMObject[] ?
08:25:40 [Hixie]
what's the difference?
08:25:54 [anne]
the latter syntax is used elsewhere in the spec
08:26:11 [Hixie]
ah
08:26:17 [anne]
unsigned ... int[] for ImageData.data iirc
08:26:28 [Hixie]
it'll all change when i synchronise with Bindings for DOM
08:26:35 [anne]
heh
08:27:07 [anne]
hmm, it's just int[] data
08:27:11 [anne]
that seems wrong
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09:02:22 [hsivonen]
anne: I fixed the recent validator.nu bugs that claimed annevankesteren.nl was invalid
09:04:10 [anne]
cool
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09:34:56 [zcorpan_]
i hope not...
09:36:01 [anne]
wtf
09:36:36 [anne]
maybe comment on that part of the draft?
09:46:09 [anne]
zcorpan_, I suggest to limit the amount of valid roles
09:46:21 [anne]
"an opaque string as defined by [...]"
09:46:29 [anne]
maybe simply include all the strings in your doc...
10:35:34 [zcorpan_]
yeah, i plan to include everything in due course
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12:26:29 [anne]
seems that same-origin checks are surprisingly simple...
12:26:59 [anne]
normalize the URI, compare scheme, domain and port (ascii case-insensitive) and you're done
12:27:29 [anne]
actually, are Unicode domains domains case-sensitive or not? ...
12:29:10 [zcorpan_]
they are, i think
12:29:20 [zcorpan_]
case insensitive that is
12:29:22 [zcorpan_]
:)
12:29:30 [anne]
unicode case insensitive?!
12:29:36 [zcorpan_]
smörgåsbord.se == SMÖRGÅSBORD.SE
12:29:40 [anne]
aaah
12:30:15 [anne]
oh wait
12:30:25 [anne]
that's probably gone after you "normalize the URI"
12:31:08 [zcorpan_]
yeah, the domain is probably lowercased when normalized
12:31:28 [anne]
there's a whole chapter in RFC 3987 on normalization and comparison
12:31:32 [anne]
I'me saved!
12:33:43 [anne]
ouch, even Unicode normalization norm C sticks it head around the window there
12:36:41 [anne]
perform schem-based normalization on both URIs and then compare the "scheme" "domain" and "port" parts
12:36:59 [anne]
if there's no host info... crash
12:46:51 [zcorpan_]
"All MathML elements should be in the MathML namespace http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-mathml-for-css-20070924/
12:46:55 [zcorpan_]
should?
12:49:58 [anne]
bug?
12:51:16 [zcorpan_]
gah, what's up with all this DTD stuff everywhere
12:51:39 [zcorpan_]
when will spec writers stop messing with DTDs
12:52:31 [Philip]
If they didn't use DTDs, they'd be incompatible with all the tools that make use of DTDs, like, uh, ...
12:52:47 [Philip]
(Are there any except the W3C Validator?)
12:54:43 [anne]
ok, dealt with same-origin except for data:, javascript: etc.
12:58:56 [beowulf]
Philip: opensp?
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13:24:57 [Lachy]
anne, yt?
13:25:11 [anne]
yeah
13:25:34 [Lachy]
got an email from Carl at opera. He wrote "you should send a quick text, when you are ante portas..." What does "ante portas" mean?
13:26:51 [Lachy]
I assume it's Norwegian or something
13:27:39 [anne]
sounds Latin to me
13:27:48 [anne]
for "at the gates"
13:27:52 [Lachy]
btw, my plane arrives in Oslo on Oct 3 at 11:00
13:28:03 [anne]
cool, but I'm in NL :)
13:28:04 [Lachy]
ah, ok.
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13:28:10 [Philip]
beowulf: Do you know what people use OpenSP for? (I can't find any references to applications in the first hundred search results, except about HTML and Docbook validation)
13:28:48 [anne]
Jacques Distler used it at one point to validate MathML entries on his site
13:28:52 [anne]
he might in fact still do that
13:29:21 [beowulf]
Philip: i probably should have appended a :) to my remark. i use opensp to validate html and spell-check
13:29:46 [beowulf]
well, i don't use it to spell check but the results get passed to sgml-spell-check
13:30:51 [beowulf]
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/sgml-spell-checker/
13:33:35 [Philip]
Okay, that sounds actually useful :-)
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13:44:46 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: do you have any feedback about http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal ? does it match firefox (ignoring that you do namespace lookup)?
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13:47:26 [MikeSmith]
Philip - the W3C markup validator uses the sp/opensp parser also; but other than that and the spell-checker and legacy DocBook SGML tools, I don't think it was ever used much in the free-software world at least
13:53:02 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i'll look at that soon, how long will you be online?
13:53:24 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i'll be online
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14:08:05 [hsivonen]
anne: you aren't quite saved. RFC 3987 weasels around the NFC vs. NFKC issue without quite pinning down which one it wants
14:08:17 [hsivonen]
or that's how I read it
14:12:21 [hsivonen]
I wonder if SMÖRGÅS written with the Ångström sign could fool a same-domain check
14:12:45 [hsivonen]
I wouldn't be too surprised if you could register a .com domain with the Ångström sign
14:27:27 [anne]
hsivonen, hmm, we need URL5, but I don't want to write it
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14:44:23 [hsivonen]
anne: are you still following the www-archive/html4all alt thread?
14:44:41 [anne]
with no intention to reply, but yes
14:44:51 [hsivonen]
anne: is it intuitively clear to you that absence of data is better that bogus data?
14:45:05 [hsivonen]
than
14:45:45 [anne]
in the general case, sure
14:46:16 [anne]
(i'm not a 100% sure here as besides "bogus" I believe they also reveal there's an image there)
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14:47:58 [anne]
seems quite selective replying to your points though
14:53:40 [Lachy]
I'm not convinced that omitted data is better than bogus data, or vice versa
14:55:12 [Lachy]
Based on current AT behaviour alone, reading out redundant text that can at least be comprehended is better than reading out a randomly generated file name
14:56:54 [anne]
that's not omitted versus bogus though
14:56:55 [Lachy]
the argument that ATs can and should improve in the case of omitted alt, instead of reading out a incomprehensible file name, needs more evidence and research into exactly what UAs could do in practice
15:07:13 [hsivonen]
Lachy: is there a reason to believe the current state of AT is a permanent anomaly?
15:08:14 [hsivonen]
Lachy: fwiw, I'm not considering redundant data bogus here
15:08:26 [hsivonen]
IMG3442.jpg is bogus
15:08:38 [hsivonen]
"Grand Canyon" not
15:08:58 [Lachy]
I don't think it is a permanent state, I'd just like to know in what ways they really can be improved.
15:09:24 [hsivonen]
Lachy: even saying "image" is better than reading out IMG3423.jpg
15:09:47 [hsivonen]
certainly better than 3414313243_af83ef.jpg
15:12:05 [Lachy]
in some cases, reading out the filename isn't bad. e.g. src="grand-canyon.jpg", in others it's a disaster. So we need to know if it's reasonable to expect UAs to be able to distinguish between those cases.
15:13:43 [anne]
you can certainly do text heuristics and dictionary lookups
15:13:46 [anne]
that's toally reasonable
15:16:57 [hsivonen]
Lachy: dictionary lookups are reasonable
15:17:57 [hsivonen]
Lachy: also, it would be reasonable for synthetizers to allow the app to preflight as string to measure its spoken length prior to deciding whether to speak
15:20:29 [Lachy]
yeah, dictionaries may work to a certain extent. Though not everything is in a dictionary. In some cases, it may need some heuristics based on the phonetics or something. e.g. src="lachlanhunt.jpg" probably wouldn't show up in a dictionary, but could probably still be read.
15:27:28 [aaronlev]
i have a patch for firefox that i've never gotten in yet
15:27:36 [aaronlev]
that does some cool stuff to generate a repaired alt
15:27:52 [aaronlev]
but i'm not sure it needs to be specified does it?
15:30:32 [anne]
it should
15:30:38 [anne]
at least documentation
15:30:42 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: it doesn't the point just is that we shouldn't expect JAWS and WindowsEyes to be the end state of development
15:31:05 [hsivonen]
s/ the point/. The point/
15:31:27 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: you mean screen readers will still invent new ideas over time
15:31:50 [aaronlev]
or the browser will get better at helping them get repaired text
15:32:21 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: either
15:32:25 [anne]
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15:32:32 [aaronlev]
i would agree
15:32:35 [anne]
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15:32:42 [hsivonen]
gotta go
15:32:49 [anne]
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15:33:09 [aaronlev]
see you
15:37:11 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: hi
15:51:02 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: hi
15:51:20 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: looking at spec now
15:51:42 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok, i just added some examples
15:52:10 [aaronlev]
i'm trying to see if we can get rid of people using xhtml2:role and just move to |role|
15:52:24 [aaronlev]
in fact that already worked in ff2 so it's more doable than other streamlining improvements
15:52:56 [zcorpan_]
ok
15:53:13 [zcorpan_]
though xhtml2:role is still needed for svg
16:03:32 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: for svg you can just use xhtml:role no?
16:03:39 [aaronlev]
but yeah
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16:03:45 [aaronlev]
we should still support xhtml2:role for svg
16:04:03 [aaronlev]
i'm going to go work to phase out xhtml2:role on elements in the html/1999 namespace
16:04:55 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: the spec doesn't define xhtml:role atm
16:05:16 [aaronlev]
what about role attribute module
16:05:51 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: the role attribute module is confusing but is really defining the role attribute in no namespace on elements in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace
16:06:09 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: not the role attribute in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace
16:06:29 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yeah
16:07:20 [zcorpan_]
i would be happy with using the xhtml namespace instead of the xhtml2 namespace, although dojo uses the xhtml2 namespace and i thought we wanted to support that :)
16:07:39 [zcorpan_]
i'm not so happy with supporting both
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16:09:06 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: agreed
16:09:08 [aaronlev]
lets fix it
16:09:42 [aaronlev]
can you suggest wording and send to the editor Shane McCarron? You can cc me
16:09:58 [aaronlev]
you can suggest clarification as part of last call comments
16:10:09 [aaronlev]
we should not have to support xhtml:role
16:11:23 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok
16:13:24 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: I just sent you a draft note that I would send to current ARIA authors
16:16:55 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok, it might take a while before it hits my inbox
16:17:03 [aaronlev]
k
16:20:28 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: got it; sounds good
16:20:31 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: thanks for helping with this
16:20:35 [aaronlev]
with all of it
16:20:50 [zcorpan_]
my pleasure :)
16:20:57 [zcorpan_]
we need to get it right in opera
16:28:25 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: cc www-html-editor?
16:29:01 [aaronlev]
if you think so
16:29:17 [aaronlev]
can you cc me and rich?
16:29:23 [aaronlev]
schwer
16:29:24 [aaronlev]
at
16:29:27 [aaronlev]
us.ibm.com
16:29:30 [zcorpan_]
well, dunno, i want it archived somewhere
16:29:34 [zcorpan_]
sure
16:29:40 [aaronlev]
thanks
16:29:47 [aaronlev]
yeah, makes sense
16:30:09 [zcorpan_]
can i say that mozilla will remove support for xhtml:role?
16:30:40 [zcorpan_]
or that mozilla would like to remove support for it, or something
16:43:01 [aaronlev]
we'll remove it
16:43:27 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: that's fine
16:44:46 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok
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16:54:33 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: ok now i'm going to go remove it from mozilla
16:55:13 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok. i've written the email, just about to send it
16:57:22 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: your spec doesn't say that if there's a prefix other than "wairole:", to look up the prefix and see if it's from the GUIRoleTaxononmy
16:58:14 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: indeed
16:58:24 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i think we won't do namespace lookup in opera
16:58:37 [aaronlev]
k
16:58:47 [aaronlev]
but, are you sure it shouldn't be in the spec?
16:59:08 [aaronlev]
it's only a couple of lines of code
16:59:34 [zcorpan_]
maybe in a future version of the spec, when we actually need the extensibility
16:59:52 [zcorpan_]
the permitted values are compatible with such processing
17:01:57 [aaronlev]
k, but will we remember to change this spec then?
17:02:15 [zcorpan_]
sure
17:02:54 [aaronlev]
So, even if that world comes to be
17:02:58 [aaronlev]
"wairole:" will be reserved?
17:03:04 [zcorpan_]
yeah
17:03:06 [aaronlev]
ok
17:03:26 [aaronlev]
but only when used on an html element?
17:03:29 [aaronlev]
what if you use it on svg?
17:03:35 [aaronlev]
can we say anything about that?
17:03:41 [zcorpan_]
any element
17:04:13 [aaronlev]
but the spec says it only applies to elemments in the html/1999 namespace
17:04:54 [zcorpan_]
no: "Authors may specify a role attribute in the http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2 namespace on *any element*, unless ..."
17:05:31 [aaronlev]
where's the link again?
17:05:41 [zcorpan_]
http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
17:06:05 [aaronlev]
ok
17:06:13 [aaronlev]
the namespace folks might not like that
17:06:33 [zcorpan_]
why not? the xml: prefix is also fixed :)
17:06:36 [aaronlev]
it is?
17:06:38 [zcorpan_]
yes
17:06:39 [aaronlev]
ok, well then
17:06:42 [aaronlev]
i like it :)
17:06:47 [zcorpan_]
:)
17:07:12 [zcorpan_]
as is the no namespace namespace :)
17:07:24 [aaronlev]
Authors may specify a role attribute in the http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2 namespace on any element, unless that is an element in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace and it has a role attribute in no namespace specified.but will you be changing
17:07:27 [aaronlev]
won't we change that to
17:07:42 [aaronlev]
Authors may specify a role attribute in the http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2 on any element not in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace.
17:08:22 [zcorpan_]
yeah, that could work
17:08:43 [aaronlev]
becuase in that case they need to just use a no-namespace role attribute
17:09:11 [zcorpan_]
but the aaa: attributes should still be allowed on xhtml elements?
17:09:26 [zcorpan_]
for compat with firefox 2?
17:09:54 [aaronlev]
right, we need that sorry
17:10:07 [aaronlev]
ff2 supports role without a namespace
17:10:13 [zcorpan_]
yep
17:10:13 [aaronlev]
dojo is shipping before ff3 ships
17:10:38 [aaronlev]
so, xhtml2:role="checkbox" would work on svg?
17:10:52 [aaronlev]
so no namespace or wairole: would mean the same thing, for any element?
17:12:32 [zcorpan_]
yes
17:13:04 [zcorpan_]
updated the spec
17:16:28 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i think some people may feel their toes are stepped on, but it is as you say, a proposal
17:16:51 [aaronlev]
because it says how xhtml2 role should be used outside of html
17:17:01 [aaronlev]
but, i don't see why we shouldn't propose it
17:17:06 [aaronlev]
let them try and argue against it
17:17:26 [zcorpan_]
yeah. or well technically it isn't even the actual xhtml2 namespace
17:18:29 [zcorpan_]
the xhtml2 spec does not define that namespace
17:19:03 [zcorpan_]
and since namespaces are opaque strings, it could just as well be "urn:blurb"
17:19:13 [zcorpan_]
which the xhtml2 spec also doesn't define
17:19:56 [zcorpan_]
the xhtml2 spec defines the "http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/" namespace
17:20:05 [aaronlev]
i'm glad you understand it
17:20:06 [aaronlev]
i don't
17:20:09 [zcorpan_]
:)
17:20:11 [aaronlev]
not sure i want to either
17:20:34 [zcorpan_]
no, namespaces are messy :)
17:23:01 [zcorpan_]
http://tinyurl.com/2qdvmx -- comments before i send it?
17:23:57 [zcorpan_]
perhaps i shouldn't mention the .../xhtml2 namespace thing
17:25:38 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i agree
17:25:44 [aaronlev]
The role attribute in no namespace on an element in the
17:25:46 [aaronlev]
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace is a required feature in
17:25:47 [aaronlev]
this specification.
17:26:32 [aaronlev]
The grammar isn't quite right
17:26:38 [aaronlev]
I'm trying to figure out how to reword that
17:28:05 [zcorpan_]
i guess i could drop that point also, the spec doesn't really say what to do with role attributes anyway
17:28:50 [aaronlev]
can you send me a new version when you have it?
17:30:00 [zcorpan_]
http://tinyurl.com/368vgu
17:33:24 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: looks good, put my last name "Leventhal" too
17:33:52 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok. sending
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17:36:29 [zcorpan_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JulSep/0032.html
17:39:04 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: now, about the role proposal
17:39:15 [aaronlev]
maybe point out that xml: is hardcoded
17:39:37 [aaronlev]
wairole: would be reserved in a similar way to xml:
17:39:48 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: in the spec, you mean?
17:40:01 [aaronlev]
yes, i think it can be worded appropriately into the spec
17:40:06 [zcorpan_]
ok
17:40:14 [aaronlev]
that legitimizes it, and I think a lot of people reading it won't know about that
17:40:33 [aaronlev]
I have a patch for Firefox, but I don't want to seek review until we get feedback on this
17:43:44 [zcorpan_]
added a note
17:45:41 [zcorpan_]
extended the note
17:46:22 [aaronlev]
Here's what my patch implements:
17:46:24 [aaronlev]
1. The role attribute must be in no namespace for elements in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace
17:46:25 [aaronlev]
2. The role attribute must be in xhtml2 namespace for anything else
17:46:27 [aaronlev]
3. If the role _value_ has no namespace prefix or the reserved prefix "wairole:", they are considered to be from the WAI roles, mapped from "http://www.w3.org/2005/01/wai-rdf/GUIRoleTaxonomy#". Either shortcut is allowed whenever role is used, and does not depend on the namespace of the element with the role.
17:47:43 [zcorpan_]
so you won't support xhtml2:role on html elements?
17:48:43 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: what do you think the right thing to do is?
17:48:56 [aaronlev]
i just told everyone to use |role| and not xhtml2:role for html elements
17:50:11 [aaronlev]
i sent it to everyone i know using aria and to public mailing lists
17:50:30 [aaronlev]
i think we're ok if we remove it, as long as people don't think that's inconistent with how things should work
17:50:46 [zcorpan_]
ok, yeah i'm happy to remove it
17:51:00 [zcorpan_]
i thought it needed to be supported for dojo
17:51:12 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: dojo is willing to change it
17:51:18 [aaronlev]
it's just one place where they set the role
17:51:22 [aaronlev]
i asked
17:51:27 [zcorpan_]
ok, great
17:52:01 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i'm more willing to do this today because i got the aria-foo part checked in. now i'm ready for polish :)
17:52:09 [aaronlev]
the other part was bigger and harder
17:53:12 [zcorpan_]
ok :)
17:53:56 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: so let me run this by my colleague here before we submit it anywhere, is that ok with you?
17:54:01 [aaronlev]
i want to make sure he's okay with it
17:54:07 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: sure
17:54:17 [aaronlev]
is it updated now?
17:54:44 [zcorpan_]
now it is
17:55:17 [aaronlev]
thanks for writing it
17:55:26 [aaronlev]
you can list my name as a secondary contributor if you want
17:55:39 [zcorpan_]
oh of course
17:56:15 [aaronlev]
Should we remove "Should the last one be disallowed? Or the last two ones even?"
17:56:21 [aaronlev]
aren't we set now with the proposal as is?
17:56:36 [zcorpan_]
yeah
17:56:47 [aaronlev]
why is the first box under "Abstract" empty
17:57:04 [zcorpan_]
it will contain the abstract :)
17:57:47 [aaronlev]
k
17:57:53 [aaronlev]
I find this part difficult to undetrsand: "No other attributes are to be processed in this way — in particular not foo attributes in no namespace on elements in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace. "
17:58:27 [aaronlev]
maybe i should put my feedback in email now
17:59:02 [zcorpan_]
see 2.1.1.2 XHTML without prefixes in http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-aria-state-20070601/#module_element
17:59:27 [zcorpan_]
it suggests that <div required="true"> should be equivalent to <div aaa:required="true">
18:01:45 [aaronlev]
which sentence says that?
18:02:36 [aaronlev]
Wow, I didn't know you could just use "aaa:' without defining it, does it say that?
18:02:52 [zcorpan_]
"Prefixes can sometimes be dropped when using XHTML 1.1 For Accessible Adaptable Applications."
18:03:31 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: you can if you have a validating xml processor, because the decl is defined in the dtd... but browsers don't and that will result in a YSoD in moz
18:03:47 [aaronlev]
that's a bad idea
18:03:53 [zcorpan_]
yes
18:03:54 [aaronlev]
i mean
18:03:59 [aaronlev]
none of this works in firefox
18:04:07 [aaronlev]
we should get rid of that
18:04:10 [zcorpan_]
yes
18:04:24 [zcorpan_]
try to get rid of the dtd stuff altogether, i'd suggest :)
18:05:00 [zcorpan_]
they are just a waste of time
18:11:45 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: want to join the working group?:)
18:11:51 [aaronlev]
just long enough to help us fix the specs?
18:12:02 [aaronlev]
i've been heads down coding and don't even notice some of the problems like this
18:13:10 [zcorpan_]
yeah. sure. :) i'll hear with my manager
18:13:34 [aaronlev]
chaals will support you
18:13:42 [zcorpan_]
hmm. if we don't need to support xhtml2:role on html elements, then perhaps we can use html:role on non-html elements after all
18:14:05 [zcorpan_]
because people don't use role on non-html elements at all yet
18:14:38 [zcorpan_]
it would still be backwards compatible with firefox 2
18:15:07 [aaronlev]
yes we do in firefox itself
18:15:10 [aaronlev]
in the XUL UI
18:15:16 [aaronlev]
but of course we can change that as firefox changes
18:16:56 [zcorpan_]
i mean that we use http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml instead of http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2 as the namespace for the attribute
18:16:58 [aaronlev]
btw they're changing the spec to say "aria:" instead of "aaa:"
18:17:04 [aaronlev]
but it's not public yet
18:17:15 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i have no problem wit hthat
18:17:15 [zcorpan_]
ok
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18:18:23 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i check for the namespaced properties before the hyphenated ones
18:18:33 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: because they can only be set dynamically
18:18:37 [aaronlev]
in text/html
18:18:40 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok
18:18:48 [aaronlev]
so can the spec say to process those first?
18:18:54 [zcorpan_]
sure
18:19:48 [kingryan]
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18:21:59 [aaronlev]
sent you mail
18:25:12 [zcorpan_]
updated the spec
18:25:38 [zcorpan_]
now the email i just sent to www-html-editor no longer applies... :)
18:25:53 [aaronlev]
so now what
18:26:56 [zcorpan_]
we support html:role on non-html elements instead of xhtml2:role on non-html elements
18:27:11 [zcorpan_]
aaa:foo is checked before aria-foo
18:28:35 [zcorpan_]
i added an example to the note about unnamespaced "foo" attributes
18:28:57 [zcorpan_]
" (as in e.g. <div hidden="true"/>)"
18:29:26 [zcorpan_]
added you as a contributor
18:30:05 [zcorpan_]
do you have a suggestion for what to use instead of "foo"?
18:30:47 [aaronlev]
like [propertyname]
18:31:06 [aaronlev]
or reword it so the sentence doesn't need to refer to it that way
18:32:07 [zcorpan_]
changed it to "propertyname" -- does it read ok?
18:32:42 [aaronlev]
let me check in a few minutes
18:32:49 [aaronlev]
what should we do about the note to www-html-editor?
18:33:24 [zcorpan_]
i can reply to myself saying ignore this comment
18:34:36 [aaronlev]
before you do that
18:34:41 [aaronlev]
let me run the proposal by rich
18:34:49 [zcorpan_]
ok
18:34:53 [aaronlev]
and see if he's ok with what we're saying
18:35:15 [zcorpan_]
yup
18:36:47 [aaronlev]
should the spec say, in user agents that process xhtml2, they should process the xhtml2:role?
18:37:49 [aaronlev]
i mean, if you're actually using xhtml2, then xhtml2:role should work
18:37:58 [aaronlev]
otherwise the xhtml2 folks will complain about the proposal
18:38:33 [zcorpan_]
xhtml2 defines a role attribute in no namespace on elements in the http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2 namespace
18:39:24 [zcorpan_]
http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/ even
18:40:02 [zcorpan_]
i could clarify that in the spec
18:40:45 [aaronlev]
so in html, xhtml 1.x, and xhml2, no namespace on the role attribute
18:40:55 [zcorpan_]
yeah
18:40:58 [aaronlev]
in anything else, use the xhtml/1999 namespace
18:41:02 [zcorpan_]
yes
18:41:16 [aaronlev]
let's clarify that part about xhtml2 so we don't get people there mad
18:42:27 [aaronlev]
ok, my colleague is fine with that
18:42:34 [aaronlev]
so i'm fine with you cancelling our note to html editors
18:43:06 [zcorpan_]
added a note about xhtml2
18:43:09 [zcorpan_]
good
18:45:14 [zcorpan_]
ok, sent
18:46:56 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: the wairole prefix needs to be declared (authoring conformance criteria, not UA conformance criteria)
18:47:15 [aaronlev]
ok
18:47:21 [aaronlev]
so what's the point in hardcoding it then?
18:47:31 [aaronlev]
for use in xhtml?
18:47:52 [aaronlev]
i think i udnerstand -- just for consistency in case the author makes an error
18:47:54 [zcorpan_]
for compat with firefox 2
18:48:11 [aaronlev]
well for ff2 we only allowed that in text/html
18:48:13 [aaronlev]
but ok
18:48:53 [zcorpan_]
yeah, but that doesn't make the proposal incompatible with firefox 2
18:49:59 [zcorpan_]
by requiring a namespace decl for it, we forbid authors to use the wairole prefix declaratively in html (because html doesn't support namespace decls)
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18:59:36 [zcorpan_]
ok, i'm heading home now to grab some food; will be back later tonight
18:59:55 [zcorpan_]
thanks for the help!
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19:00:02 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: see you
19:00:03 [aaronlev]
when do you think i should run it by my colleague
19:00:05 [aaronlev]
?
19:00:22 [aaronlev]
he's probably not ready to look at it yet, so i think i'll wait until you work on it more
19:00:22 [zcorpan_]
any time you like
19:00:29 [aaronlev]
ok
19:00:43 [aaronlev]
white timezone are you in?
19:00:51 [zcorpan_]
gmt+1
19:00:59 [zcorpan_]
the remaining two issues will require some research
19:01:40 [zcorpan_]
i might look into it tomorrow -- it's probably pretty much what [MAPPING] says
19:01:50 [zcorpan_]
if that's what you have implemented :)
19:02:57 [Hixie]
anne: no, it's not that simple (same origin); consider document.written() documents or data: documents
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19:48:18 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i came to think of one way it might conflict with xhtml2, but only relevant for UAs that implement xhtml2
19:48:43 [zcorpan_]
if you specify both role and html:role on an element in the xhtml2 namespace
19:48:58 [aaronlev]
that should be unsupported
19:49:25 [zcorpan_]
the html:role should be ignored on xhtml2 elements if the ua supports xhtml2
19:50:45 [aaronlev]
right
19:50:49 [aaronlev]
agree
19:52:52 [zcorpan_]
fixed
19:57:40 [zcorpan_]
(that doesn't affect us though because we don't support xhtml2)
19:58:21 [mjs]
it seems problematic to predicate recognition of a namespaced "super-global" attribute on whether a language is supported or not
19:59:09 [zcorpan_]
mjs: hmm.. why?
19:59:35 [mjs]
zcorpan_: needless lack of interop between xhtml2 UAs and non-xhtml2 UAs
19:59:47 [mjs]
presuamblly the rules for the xhtml namespace are the same whether or not the UA "supports" xhtml1
20:00:12 [zcorpan_]
yeah. true
20:00:15 [mjs]
I think it would make more sense to base it on the element's namespace alone, not whether that namespace is supported
20:00:39 [zcorpan_]
yes, i'll change it
20:01:49 [zcorpan_]
done
20:01:59 [zcorpan_]
thanks
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20:17:09 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: did you see rich's comment?
20:22:29 [zcorpan_]
no?
20:26:07 [aaronlev]
i cc'd you, it was buried in there
20:26:11 [aaronlev]
now i've replied to him
20:27:51 [zcorpan_]
perhaps it hasn't hit my inbox yet -- sometimes it takes hours before emails arrive to my @opera.com address for some reason
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20:36:34 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: rich is going to explain that we will need to propose prefixless role values in svg/xul/etc. to xhtml2 wg, because they own the role module spec
20:36:50 [aaronlev]
and what that means, if we have to go through them
20:38:58 [zcorpan_]
ok
20:40:45 [zcorpan_]
yeah, the aria stuff effectively overrides the unprefixed roles in the module spec
20:43:01 [zcorpan_]
if we still want them we can say that they are also aria roles
20:43:19 [zcorpan_]
but they don't seem very useful -- there are html5 elements that can be used for most of them :)
20:47:12 [zcorpan_]
banner -> nothing, authors won't use it because it would be too easy for ad blockers to pick up on it
20:47:24 [zcorpan_]
contentinfo -> <footer>
20:47:50 [zcorpan_]
definition -> implied with <dfn> and context
20:48:04 [zcorpan_]
main -> <article>
20:48:12 [zcorpan_]
navigation -> <nav>
20:48:23 [zcorpan_]
note -> <aside>
20:48:36 [zcorpan_]
search -> none yet
20:48:51 [zcorpan_]
secondary -> <aside>
20:49:08 [zcorpan_]
seealso -> <aside>?
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20:54:38 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: agree, and i think the wai roles should be considered a superset of those
20:54:45 [aaronlev]
but rich does have a point
20:55:07 [aaronlev]
maybe we should take what we can get without stirring things up too much
20:55:40 [zcorpan_]
which means?
20:56:54 [aaronlev]
require a prefix for wai roles, when role is used on elements not in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml
20:57:09 [aaronlev]
becuase we can just argue that http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml is in the html-wg domain
20:57:45 [aaronlev]
i think you probably didn't get the next few emails back and forth
20:57:47 [aaronlev]
yet
20:58:25 [zcorpan_]
ok. it still conflicts with the role module though, because the role attribute module defines some prefixless values
20:59:09 [aaronlev]
but none of the prefixless values are the same as wai roles
20:59:20 [aaronlev]
so just say if there is no prefix, it checks boths
20:59:22 [aaronlev]
both
20:59:55 [aaronlev]
the pf won't let there be a conflict between wai role names and role attribute names
21:00:37 [Lachy]
zcorpan_, role=banner -> <header>
21:01:13 [zcorpan_]
hmm. the spec as defined now will just ignore the wairole: prefix, so e.g. role="wairole:banner" is the same as role="banner"
21:01:22 [Lachy]
the description is poor, but it says "he banner content typically contains the site or company logo and ..."
21:01:30 [zcorpan_]
Lachy: ah, ok
21:02:16 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: don't you think that's okay to propose that we treat the wairoles as a superset?
21:02:42 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yeah
21:03:20 [zcorpan_]
and also that the predefined roles in the module spec work with a wairole: prefix
21:03:26 [mjs_]
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21:04:53 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i'll catch you later
21:04:55 [aaronlev]
gotta go
21:05:15 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok, cya
22:20:22 [anne]
hmm same-origin... bah
22:20:31 [Hixie]
agreed
22:20:38 [Hixie]
html5 has some stuff on it but it needs more
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22:25:17 [anne]
i don't like the dependency on HTML5 from XMLHttpRequest but I guess it's unavoidable
22:25:23 [anne]
doesn't really matter I suppose
22:25:42 [Hixie]
xbl2 has it too
22:26:07 [anne]
prolly goes for most relevant specs :p
22:26:11 [Hixie]
:-)
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10:19:17 [Steve_]
lurking here too
10:19:53 [karl]
:)
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10:20:11 [karl]
time to drop off. 7:19pm
10:20:31 [anne]
Steve_ is steven f?
10:20:35 [anne]
and hi
10:21:31 [Steve_]
yes
10:24:39 [anne]
mjs, any idea on how to proceed with the form TF?
10:25:15 [mjs]
anne: I think we need to just start
10:25:57 [mjs]
anne: I can think of a couple of possibilities: (1) suggest people email their thoughts on what should be in the charter (2) kick off with a telecon (3) kick off with an IRC discussion or similar
10:25:58 [anne]
at some point in time some of the forms wg and you guys agreed on a set of ideas
10:26:19 [anne]
based on that hixie and hyatt then drafted <datatemplate>
10:26:29 [anne]
maybe we can use that as input for the charter?
10:26:56 [mjs]
I was thinking something like that list of the ideas should be the output of the task force, not the charter
10:27:29 [mjs]
the main thing we need to decide for the charter is whether our output is a technical specification or a meta-level document that should influence design of HTML and XForms
10:28:01 [mjs]
(IMO anyway)
10:28:26 [mjs]
I think if the output of the task force is required to be a language specification then it is likely the task force will fail, given the low level of activity so far
10:28:29 [Lachy]
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10:28:37 [mjs]
so I think that's a nonstarter
10:28:42 [mjs]
but it has been suggested before
10:29:15 [anne]
it seems that that's what the Forms WG charter suggests, but the HTML WG charter suggests it should be meta-level requirements
10:29:21 [anne]
on forms for the web
10:31:05 [mjs]
I think that is the issue that the Forms TF charter needs to resolve (and I guess it is also traditional for charters to estimate some sort of timeline)
10:31:56 [anne]
yeah, when you expect to be finished and when you finish your first doc etc.
10:34:03 [Lachy]
I think you should request that the forms wg appoint a new TF member to replace the one who has failed to participate and just proceed without him
10:36:12 [anne]
Lachy, I suppose that's possible, but that doesn't help moving forward
10:37:30 [Lachy]
how doesn't it help? It gives you a way to get started instead of waiting
10:38:12 [anne]
to me it's more about how to start, then whether or not we have all participants ready
10:38:24 [anne]
although it might be good to inform the forms WG of the guy who's absent
10:40:10 [Lachy]
I think you could start with everyone stating what they want and don't want the group to achieve in the end, and using that as a basis for the charter.
10:45:44 [Hixie]
the htmlwg charter requires the task force to get "architectural consistency" between html5 and xforms _transitional_, iirc
10:45:47 [Hixie]
which isn't xforms at all
10:45:50 [Hixie]
and can be far easier
10:46:08 [Hixie]
since there are basically no requirements on xforms transitional that prevent it from being identical to wf2 as far as i can tell
10:46:26 [anne]
it's all a bit icky
10:47:16 [anne]
if we make it a literal reading of the HTML charter they might get upset
10:48:24 [Hixie]
luckily for us, the w3c's vision, that the document nominally based on it, are not binding.
10:54:48 [Lachy]
the meaning of architectural consistency isn't really clear in this context.
11:00:54 [mjs]
I remember that DanC and John Boyer misquoted the vision document by accidentally citing an unpublished version, but I think that was most likely an honest mistake
11:01:30 [mjs]
(still, that mistake did propagate to the message kicking off the TF)
11:03:55 [anne]
k, so 1) write a draft charter and 2) ask forms wg about absent participant?
11:04:20 [mjs]
proposing a draft is certainly a way to get the ball rolling
11:06:17 [Hixie]
i recommend letting the xforms people deal with their own reps
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11:10:55 [anne]
the distributed extensibility thread is amusing
11:15:52 [Hixie]
it's a tough problem
11:16:21 [Hixie]
i do find it amusing that microformats is touted as an example of why it's a good idea when it basically goes against the whole point of microformats
11:17:03 [mjs]
in general there seems to be more genuine demand for access to specific well-known vocabularies than to custom vocabularies
11:17:42 [Hixie]
what's not really clear to me is why class="" and other html extension mechanisms aren't enough
11:17:49 [mjs]
(under the category of well-known vocabularies I include both microformats and XML languages like SVG or MathML)
11:18:00 [Hixie]
yeah
11:18:04 [Hixie]
anyway
11:18:09 [Hixie]
it's on the list of things to look at
11:18:15 [Hixie]
though it's not near the top
11:18:32 [Hixie]
assuming i get up in time to actually have a tomorrow
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13:48:16 [aaronlev]
hi zcorpan_
13:48:35 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: should we set up a 3 way chat with you, myself and rich?
13:48:40 [aaronlev]
the email back and forth is not that useful
13:50:50 [anne]
please publicly log the discussion somehow
13:51:37 [aaronlev]
anne: why don't you join it
13:51:49 [aaronlev]
anne: what if we want to discuss something political that we don't want to log :P
13:51:52 [anne]
I suppose that works too, depending on when and where
13:52:18 [anne]
sounds corperate :p
13:53:39 [aaronlev]
nah
13:53:42 [aaronlev]
not exactly
13:53:49 [aaronlev]
it's just the same old same old
13:54:49 [anne]
ah
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14:32:49 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: hi
14:33:34 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: chatting here wfm
14:34:08 [zcorpan_]
although i need to do some other things today, actually
14:34:25 [zcorpan_]
i changed the spec to allow multiple roles
14:34:49 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: ok
14:35:08 [aaronlev]
so is the remaining unresolved issue that rich has related to requiring the prefix in the role value?
14:35:38 [zcorpan_]
i don't understand his concern actually
14:35:52 [aaronlev]
that's why i think a chat would be good
14:36:05 [anne]
multiple roles, what's the use case?
14:36:17 [aaronlev]
anne: i don't know
14:36:19 [zcorpan_]
he says that we need to go through the xhtml2 wg, which is fine by me; we can put the proposal on their table
14:36:20 [aaronlev]
firefox just uses the first one
14:36:31 [anne]
right, I'd assume we're going to follow that
14:36:33 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yeah, the spec still requires UAs to ignore all but the first
14:36:40 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: fine with me too, but i don't know how long it will take to get an answer, and i'm short on time
14:36:46 [anne]
I'm not sure if it makes sense to allow multiple roles if they're not going be used...
14:36:56 [aaronlev]
maybe we can split it into the parts we need their approval on and part we don't
14:36:58 [anne]
seems very confusing
14:37:09 [aaronlev]
anne: i'm confused by it, i voted against it
14:38:53 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: we can implement the spec and propose it at the same time. it's not incompatible with the existing specs or firefox 2 in any way, really
14:40:03 [anne]
I think the XHTML2 namespace should not be considered in the namespaced role= algorithm
14:40:06 [aaronlev]
not requiring a prefix for role values is different from firefox 2
14:40:10 [aaronlev]
for wai roles
14:40:26 [aaronlev]
rich says, that would make the wai roles part of the xhtml role module roles
14:40:36 [aaronlev]
and that is part of the xhtml2 wg's spec
14:40:42 [zcorpan_]
right
14:40:42 [aaronlev]
i mean, the own the role module
14:40:46 [anne]
maybe he should view it differently
14:41:00 [aaronlev]
but the role module is farther along, it's in CR I think
14:41:08 [aaronlev]
whereas the wai roles are still being worked on
14:41:12 [anne]
role applies to elements in the (X)HTML5 namespace and can be put in the (X)HTML5 namespace
14:41:26 [aaronlev]
so i suggested it just say, that the wai roles are included in the list, and use indirection
14:41:27 [anne]
seems logical that the XHTML2 can't really do much about that
14:42:09 [aaronlev]
anne: the proposal say that the prefix is not needed for wai roles, even when used outside of html/xhtml
14:42:12 [anne]
aaronlev, the role module is a simple WD, not even Last Call
14:42:17 [anne]
see http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/
14:42:17 [aaronlev]
ok
14:42:32 [aaronlev]
currently that wg owns the spec which says which roles don't require a prefix
14:43:19 [anne]
i'm not really sure whether that matter much, zcorpan just put up a spec that says otherwise
14:43:54 [zcorpan_]
if the spec is not different from the existing specs, then there is nothing to propose... :)
14:44:10 [zcorpan_]
i thought the point was to make the syntax simpler
14:44:23 [zcorpan_]
which means that is has to be different
14:45:04 [aaronlev]
i'm just trying to help you understand rich's concern so you can address it
14:45:35 [aaronlev]
we need to ask a group that loves the extensibility of namespaces to remove the need for them
14:45:59 [aaronlev]
but maybe i just don't understand who really can do what
14:46:04 [aaronlev]
since there are 2 xhtml groups
14:46:05 [anne]
no, we simply need to encorperate the zcorpan proposal into HTML5 or into some separate draft the HTML WG publishes...
14:46:23 [anne]
there's 1 XHTML group, there's also one XHTML2 group
14:46:41 [anne]
(the XHTML group also happens to do HTML (or vice versa))
14:46:54 [aaronlev]
and who decides how the xhtml2 role attribute or the role module's role attribute is used?
14:47:22 [anne]
does it matter?
14:47:33 [aaronlev]
it might to the people who wrote the original spec
14:47:37 [aaronlev]
just politics
14:47:52 [aaronlev]
if it's used in xhtml/1999 i say that the html wg decides
14:47:56 [anne]
for instance, XHTML2 people want to change the namespace of XHTML2 back to the XHTML namespace creating all kinds of issues
14:48:12 [anne]
we're not getting really upset about that, as we simply don't implement it
14:48:26 [aaronlev]
ok
14:48:37 [anne]
i'd suggest a similar strategy for equivalent proposals, such as the XHTML role module...
14:49:01 [zcorpan_]
i guess i can send the spec to www-archive to get a permalink to a dated version of the draft, and then send an email to the html wg and the xhtml2 wg asking for feedback. is that a good idea?
14:49:19 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yes, better that way i think
14:49:25 [aaronlev]
btw i like your proposal
14:49:33 [zcorpan_]
:)
14:49:35 [aaronlev]
rich has been in w3c for a long time
14:49:48 [aaronlev]
he's probably just anticipating some annoying politics and trying to avoid themn
14:50:48 [zcorpan_]
i can list the goals/constraints we had when writing the proposal in the email
14:51:15 [aaronlev]
ok
14:52:53 [anne]
fwiw, I don't like that the conformance critera for authors are totally different from the implementation requirements
14:54:06 [zcorpan_]
anne: ok
14:59:15 [Rich]
Rich has joined #html-wg
14:59:51 [aaronlev]
hi Rich
14:59:54 [Rich]
hi
15:00:02 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_ is Simon Pieters
15:00:08 [Rich]
thanks
15:00:34 [zcorpan_]
hi Rich
15:00:39 [Rich]
Hi Simon
15:01:18 [Rich]
what topic are we on?
15:01:28 [Rich]
namespaces? ...
15:01:35 [zcorpan_]
Rich: i've sent the proposal to www-archive; i'm about the send an email to html wg and xhtml2 wg listing the goals and constraints for the proposal and asking for feedback
15:01:36 [Rich]
prefix?
15:01:48 [Rich]
cool
15:02:01 [anne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/att-0106/aria-proposal.html
15:02:17 [zcorpan_]
Rich: you can read the log if you want (link in /topic)
15:02:18 [anne]
(hi Rich, btw!)
15:02:29 [Rich]
Hi anne!
15:02:58 [Rich]
Nice work by Simon pulling this all together
15:03:08 [zcorpan_]
thanks :)
15:04:17 [aaronlev]
yeah simon, really thanks
15:04:26 [Rich]
reading the latest draft now
15:06:07 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: some of my xhtml exmples on mozilla.org don't use wairole, that breaks with this spec
15:06:10 [aaronlev]
"No namespace lookup of the attribute value is performed in this version of this specification."
15:06:34 [aaronlev]
I don't understand why you remove that, it's only a couple of lines of code, to ensure that a non "wairole" prefix is in fact pointing to the guiroletaxonomy
15:06:36 [Philip_]
("Note: What "unordered set of space-separated tokens" means is defined in HTML5." - doesn't that need to be a normative reference, rather than a note?)
15:07:05 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: perhaps those examples could be updated?
15:07:38 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: we can add namespace lookup in a future version of the spec when it is needed
15:08:16 [Rich]
The PF working group agreed to replace the aaa prefix with aria so it is aria:hidden ( per the document)
15:08:28 [Rich]
missed this one before
15:08:54 [zcorpan_]
Philip_: i guess, i more pretended that the spec was part of the html5 spec :)
15:09:09 [zcorpan_]
Rich: the proposal allows any prefix for those
15:09:14 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yeah i told him but the latest spec zcorpan_ can read doesn't have that afaict
15:09:26 [aaronlev]
s/zcorpan_/rich
15:09:38 [aaronlev]
Rich: can't we get him a recent spec to review, the one up there is old
15:09:53 [zcorpan_]
i can read the Member-only draft
15:10:05 [zcorpan_]
if that's what you're referring to
15:10:44 [zcorpan_]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/adaptable/
15:11:00 [aaronlev]
ok good
15:11:19 [Rich]
Simon, Did you mean to have aria-hidden in xhtml? I remember that for html 4 and 5 but not xhtml
15:11:52 [aaronlev]
Rich: the proposal assums xhtml and html should work basically the same
15:11:58 [aaronlev]
otherwise it causes migration issues
15:12:08 [zcorpan_]
what aaronlev says
15:12:09 [aaronlev]
and is just extra code
15:12:34 [Rich]
It is fine with me - just that aria-hidden is not in the xhtml namespace
15:12:50 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: but why not allow the namespace lookup now? like i said it's tiny code
15:13:03 [aaronlev]
i mean, namespaces should work like namespaces
15:13:31 [aaronlev]
when they are used they should work consistently
15:13:39 [anne]
role= should not have qnames!
15:13:54 [anne]
and with that remark I'm off as I've to get food :)
15:14:04 [Rich]
yes - I understand the position of the html working group for html
15:14:15 [aaronlev]
right, what Rich says
15:14:30 [Rich]
However let me explain why they are important going forward for xhtml based markup
15:14:46 [Rich]
We have a lot of work to do on SVG.
15:15:12 [Rich]
We need to deal with diagrams, charts, etc. and these will be there own taxonomies
15:15:43 [Rich]
what we want to avoid is having a name duplicated and having different meanings.
15:15:49 [Rich]
so,
15:16:04 [Rich]
we could have the following namespaces (actually these are taxonomies).
15:16:08 [Rich]
flowchart:
15:16:13 [Rich]
diagram:
15:16:21 [Rich]
geomap:
15:16:42 [Rich]
Each taxonomy will has its own roles and set of properties belonging to those roles
15:17:20 [Rich]
a decision in flowchart may mean something entirely different in another taxonomy and we don't want a name collision
15:18:02 [Rich]
ARIA is pretty well vetted at this point in that the roles we have are targeted at web 2.0 style applications so the risk of name collision can be minimized
15:18:51 [Rich]
In terms of accessibility we, as an industry, need to spend time on markup like svg and removing the namespace capability for xhtml would be a serious hindrance going forward
15:19:34 [Rich]
Also important: although these are "namespaces" they are really taxonomies. I wish we had taken this approach when we created accessibility APIs in the past
15:20:17 [Rich]
We could have clearly deliniated a role and it's designated properties and we probably would have been able to avoid the bad accessibility implementations we have today
15:20:31 [myakura]
myakura has joined #html-wg
15:20:31 [Rich]
using the taxonomy approach was extremely helpful to the PF workin ggroup
15:20:41 [Rich]
s/workin/working/
15:20:59 [zcorpan_]
Rich: any new values will be meaningless to firefox 3 and opera 9.5; regardless of whether they look up namespaces or not. the namespace lookup can be specced later when it is needed. the current draft doesn't make new values conflict
15:21:01 [Rich]
I hope this clears things up. For us a namespace is much more than a namespace
15:21:55 [zcorpan_]
i understand the vision, but it is not needed at this point, and the proposal is compatible to make it in that way later on
15:22:01 [Rich]
Actually, that is not entirely true. If we were to take the name, say flowchart:decision, we could pass it off to the AT through the accessibility api
15:22:19 [zcorpan_]
Rich: indeed, that's what the proposal says
15:22:53 [Rich]
I was addressing anne's comments about allowing namespaces
15:23:33 [Rich]
flowchart:decision could be passed directly to the AT through the role value in msaa as a string. It would not break your impelmentation
15:23:49 [zcorpan_]
indeed
15:23:51 [Rich]
ok
15:24:43 [Rich]
so, back to the states topic
15:25:11 [Rich]
you want to have aria-state, etc. added to the xhtml namespace ... correct?
15:25:26 [anne]
nope
15:25:47 [anne]
attributes are not in a namespace generally
15:25:51 [Rich]
ok
15:26:02 [anne]
aria-* would be in no namespace on elements in the XHTML namespace
15:26:36 [anne]
(which covers both HTML and XHTML documents; XML documents are covered by aaa:* with aaa bound to some namespace)
15:27:06 [Rich]
ok aaa should be aria: not aaa:
15:27:25 [anne]
hmm, if you're using namespaces prefixes shouldn't matter
15:27:28 [aaronlev]
Rich: for consistency with where our WD is going right?
15:27:39 [aaronlev]
anne: just for consistency with the other docs, less confusing i guess
15:27:39 [anne]
if prefixes matter you're not using namespaces correctly
15:27:50 [zcorpan_]
Rich: it is inappropriate to fix a namespace prefix when the lookup is done by the XML processor
15:27:52 [Rich]
yes, namespaces prefixes do not matter but PF decided on this standard prefix
15:28:06 [aaronlev]
Rich: but it's non normative right?
15:28:15 [aaronlev]
just for the docs we say "aria:"
15:28:16 [Rich]
correct
15:28:19 [aaronlev]
but you can use anything
15:28:23 [Rich]
correct
15:28:26 [aaronlev]
so you just think it's clearer
15:28:30 [Rich]
yes
15:28:36 [aaronlev]
a nit, as they say
15:28:42 [Rich]
it is a branding thing if you will. yep a nit
15:28:50 [Rich]
a nit of a nit
15:30:38 [anne]
hmm, seems better to use "foo" as to not confuse people that "aria" is somehow relevant here
15:30:43 [anne]
or "example"
15:31:17 [anne]
(bit more than a nit ;) )
15:33:35 [Rich]
well aria indicates that the states are part of the aria states and properties specification
15:34:06 [Rich]
but yes it is important that the prefix is not normative
15:34:07 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i still disagree about not processing the prefix, because processing it now means ff3 is compatible with future content if that future content makes use of extensibility and multiple role namespaces
15:34:22 [aaronlev]
it's about compatibility with future content when we have that, and it doesn't cost much
15:35:32 [anne]
it's still not clear to me why qnames are the right solution to this, why not solve this problem when it actually comes up?
15:36:12 [anne]
it's unclear how the prefix is resolved, this doesn't work in HTML, it doesn't allow you to write scripts or CSS that are agnostic of how the qname in the attribute is written (and depend use the namespace instead)
15:36:35 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: when you find an unknown role, do you pass along the qname or the namespace,role pair?
15:36:38 [anne]
there's a lot to say against qnames in content and at this point there's not much in favor
15:37:10 [Rich]
what is an alternative for specifying a taxonomy for say flowcharts
15:37:11 [Rich]
?
15:37:29 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: we pass on the actual namespace role pair
15:37:43 [anne]
just specifying it?
15:37:52 [zcorpan_]
Rich: we could have fixed strings "flowchart:foo" without namespaces, for instance
15:38:00 [anne]
similarly to how we propose to extend HTML now
15:38:03 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok
15:38:32 [anne]
there's so far not much evidence that suggests namespacing for web formats is really necessary
15:38:34 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: what if say, yahoo or facebook want to develop their own taxonomy, then they have to go through w3c?
15:38:42 [anne]
especially given that virtually all content is in html
15:39:13 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: custom prefixes could with allowed by having them start with an underscore or something
15:39:15 [Rich]
Yes, they won't want to clear these through the w3c
15:39:25 [zcorpan_]
cf custom properties in css
15:39:31 [anne]
do we want all kinds of people to invent their own formats and expose them on the web?
15:39:37 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: now we're getting like perl, not good
15:39:39 [anne]
and expect them to work in clients for some reason?
15:39:46 [aaronlev]
how about `@ ?
15:39:50 [Rich]
we want to at least allow for other taxonomies
15:39:53 [anne]
seems like very good reasons to avoid this...
15:39:58 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: any character will do for me
15:40:12 [anne]
if everyone invents their own format and sends it over the wire the web won't become more accessible
15:40:24 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: but it's so cheap to process the prefix, so i don't understand the resistance
15:40:30 [anne]
you'll just get less interop than you have now
15:40:48 [anne]
aaronlev, see arguments above
15:40:52 [anne]
aaronlev, about qnames
15:41:07 [aaronlev]
so everyone should go through w3c when they want to do something news/
15:41:09 [aaronlev]
new?
15:41:51 [zcorpan_]
what do you do if you want a custom attribute in html? or a custom property in css?
15:42:01 [anne]
not necessarily, but I wonder how often the scenario you describe happens
15:42:13 [aaronlev]
anne: i don't know, but how expensive is it to process that?
15:42:16 [anne]
afaict, only AT vendors can realistically introduce new values that are meaningfull for people
15:42:34 [anne]
aaronlev, adding qnames is expensive, see above for how it complicates CSS and script authoring
15:42:37 [aaronlev]
anne: no, the taxonomy describes the inheritance and localization for new properties
15:42:49 [anne]
which taxonomy?
15:42:49 [aaronlev]
anne: you already have support for qnames in opera
15:43:00 [zcorpan_]
oh?
15:43:00 [anne]
qnames in content
15:43:07 [anne]
I'm not talking about <foo:bar>
15:43:19 [aaronlev]
ok, all i do is grab the thing before the colon
15:43:36 [aaronlev]
and use an interface to find out if that prefix matches the guiroletaxonomy
15:43:52 [aaronlev]
i'm sure you have a n interface to match a namespace uri with a prefix
15:43:55 [anne]
I've two documents containing <x role="foo:bar"> and <x role="baz:bar">
15:44:01 [anne]
foo and baz are bound to the same namespace
15:44:08 [anne]
they are thus equivalent documents
15:44:14 [anne]
how do I style them?
15:44:15 [Rich]
people are creating all sorts of taxonomies with html today - model-based authoring tools, etc. They are all widgets created with divs, spans, styling, and script. There is no way to convey what they are
15:44:19 [anne]
how do I script against them?
15:44:30 [Rich]
we need a vehicle
15:44:44 [Rich]
for the author to convey what they are
15:44:55 [anne]
they don't even work in HTML
15:45:10 [anne]
so for the coming 10 years people won't be able to extend ARIA at all
15:45:14 [anne]
because namespaces just don't work
15:45:22 [anne]
and they will need to resort to other hacks
15:45:34 [anne]
like requiring the prefix to be a certain string
15:45:38 [Rich]
exactly if we lock the role into a single name that is true
15:45:45 [anne]
no
15:45:53 [anne]
huh
15:45:59 [anne]
I'm not sure I understand that remark
15:46:23 [anne]
(also, no implementation supports multiple roles, that's just a weird artifact of the role spec afaict)
15:46:29 [Rich]
asl long as the prefix resolves to a url we will be ok. but the group does not want thes in html
15:47:00 [anne]
HTML doesn't have prefixes, namespaces, etc.
15:47:04 [zcorpan_]
Rich: why is an url+role better than prefix+role?
15:47:04 [Rich]
anne: that is not true. middleware uses multiple roles to process information
15:47:04 [anne]
HTML is what's being used by authors
15:47:19 [Rich]
anne: we understand this
15:47:26 [anne]
if we want authors to use it we thus need to cater for HTML
15:47:40 [anne]
Rich, how is role="checkbox navigation" supposed to work?
15:49:01 [Rich]
anne: Ok so on the server, navigation may be used to restructure the document placing the navigation section first, last, etc. checkbox could be replaced by another role which would fit on the client. I personally would not mix navigation and checkbox in the same instance but you gave that as an example
15:49:21 [Rich]
role is being used for more than accessibility
15:49:34 [anne]
no, what do I implement in Opera if I encounter stuff like that?
15:49:45 [anne]
it's not really about authoring or servers here, I think
15:50:12 [anne]
authors will eventually code against software, and it's likely they'll do silly things such as the example I gave above
15:50:30 [Rich]
understand: the landmark you can use for keyboard navigation and the widget you map to the accessibility api
15:50:37 [anne]
(my evidence being that 95% of the web is syntactically incorrect and prolly 99.9% is non-conforming)
15:50:58 [anne]
Rich, ok role="checkbox grid"
15:51:15 [Rich]
if you have 2 widgets take the first. We are directing authors to use one role as only one role is handled by ATs today
15:51:15 [anne]
role="password checkbox"
15:51:27 [anne]
hmm
15:51:37 [Rich]
we will have this in our best practices
15:51:40 [anne]
see, this already makes it more complicated
15:51:50 [anne]
because now you have to check whether it's a widget or not
15:52:05 [anne]
which also defeats extensibility, because you don't know whether a new value represents a widget or not...
15:52:11 [Rich]
btw: I agree with not supporting multiple roles - I was shot down in the xhtml working group as there are good arguments on both sides
15:52:17 [anne]
and therefore you don't know which one to pass on to AT clients
15:52:23 [Rich]
I am arguing against myself :-)
15:52:57 [Rich]
so, it is in for consistency and to support non-accessibility related issues
15:53:15 [anne]
hmm, but I just pointed out that it doesn't work?
15:53:16 [Sander]
Sander has joined #html-wg
15:53:28 [anne]
I'm not sure it makes sense to specify something that has obvious flaws
15:54:02 [anne]
It's fine that some WG thinks it would be theoretically pure that it can have multiple values, but if implementation experience suggests otherwise, it might be wise to revisit that
15:54:07 [Rich]
if you limited role to accessibility -which will never fly in the xhtml 2 working group - then that would be true
15:54:35 [anne]
as far as I'm concerned role= is for accessibility and nothing else...
15:54:37 [Rich]
well the xhtml2 working role is using roles for non-accessibility solutions - take RDF/A, etc.
15:54:47 [Rich]
that would be incorrect
15:55:03 [anne]
all real world uses are for accessibility
15:55:03 [Rich]
It would be nice if that were true
15:55:22 [Rich]
I think you need to talk to the RDF/A people
15:55:32 [Rich]
but thank you for endorsing our work :-)
15:57:15 [Rich]
Unfortunately I need to go to another call folks
15:57:38 [Rich]
this is a good discussion - and thank you Simon for the great work
15:59:02 [zcorpan_]
Rich: ok, cya later
16:00:07 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: presumeably role+uri is better because no central authority is required for uniqueness
16:00:16 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: using just prefixes is like file extensions
16:00:30 [anne]
not really
16:00:36 [anne]
file extensions don't have prefixes
16:00:49 [anne]
it's not ms-doc
16:00:52 [aaronlev]
iow, they are both a small string
16:00:53 [anne]
it's simply doc
16:01:04 [aaronlev]
the prefix is not guaranteed to be unique
16:01:05 [anne]
there's quite a difference
16:01:06 [aaronlev]
whereas the url is
16:01:19 [anne]
not really
16:01:36 [anne]
XHTML2 for instance proposes an <input> element that's radically different from HTML5 <input> yet is in the same namespace
16:01:45 [anne]
(per the latest rumors)
16:02:16 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: uniqueness could be ensured in the same way as it is in css
16:02:16 [aaronlev]
anne: btw i don't like xhtml2
16:02:16 [anne]
CSS for instance has been using prefixes for years and never had issues with clashes
16:02:37 [anne]
one of the reasons they never had clashes is that extensions mostly come from vendors, which is exactly the same here
16:02:56 [aaronlev]
anne: so you mean like -moz-user-focus
16:03:15 [zcorpan_]
right
16:03:30 [anne]
yeah, role=-moz-tristatecheckbox
16:03:36 [anne]
or without the - at the start
16:03:53 [aaronlev]
we've killed tristatecheckbox btw
16:03:54 [zcorpan_]
even when there are namespaces, most likely everyone will use the same prefix to declare it (see rss 1.0, everyone uses <rdf:RDF>)
16:03:55 [aaronlev]
but anyway
16:03:58 [aaronlev]
-moz-slider
16:04:02 [anne]
having a weird prefix like moz-, o-, at- seems good enough
16:04:03 [aaronlev]
whatever
16:04:43 [anne]
(that's why I used -moz-tristatecheckbox :) )
16:04:48 [aaronlev]
ok. how should the vendor define what that inherits from, what properties it has, and what the localization strings are
16:04:51 [aaronlev]
ok
16:05:12 [anne]
i'm not really familiar with "inherits from"
16:05:30 [anne]
properties seems like simply passing the aria-* attributes to the AT client?
16:05:59 [aaronlev]
right, but what's the localization for the priperty, in case it changes
16:06:05 [anne]
maybe the UA should have an API for all that stuff so AT clients can implement that themselves
16:06:07 [aaronlev]
take for example aol-buddylist
16:06:07 [anne]
seems easier
16:06:15 [aaronlev]
role="aol-buddylist"
16:06:20 [aaronlev]
and role="aol-buddy"
16:06:34 [aaronlev]
they inherit from listbox and oiption
16:06:39 [aaronlev]
or tree or something
16:06:46 [aaronlev]
aol-buddy has some new properties, like away, which is a boolean
16:06:49 [aaronlev]
and idle, which is a time string
16:06:55 [anne]
I think the AT should have that knowledge
16:07:03 [anne]
it will support the control after all...
16:07:12 [aaronlev]
anne: you can't do that, small at vendors cannot keep up
16:07:17 [anne]
if there's no support for a widget there's no point in using it
16:07:19 [aaronlev]
when a user goes away and the property changes, we'll fire an event
16:07:24 [aaronlev]
the boolean changes
16:07:51 [anne]
(how is that handled by the other proposal btw?!)
16:08:19 [aaronlev]
anne: it's not fleshed out completely, but basically the xmlns:aolwidgets would point to a URI
16:08:25 [aaronlev]
role="aol:buddy"
16:08:30 [anne]
oh help
16:08:43 [aaronlev]
becomes something like "http://www.aol.com/widgets#buddy"
16:08:52 [aaronlev]
which says buddy is really a list item
16:08:59 [aaronlev]
so you're not wrong if you treat it as a list item
16:09:14 [aaronlev]
anne: i'm actually in favor of xbl btw
16:09:16 [anne]
seems like there's not much advantage in using buddy then...
16:09:20 [aaronlev]
so don't hate me for explaing this
16:09:26 [anne]
no
16:09:29 [anne]
i won't
16:09:38 [aaronlev]
anne: if either 1) an AT want to put in special code to deal with buddy in a future version they can
16:09:42 [anne]
it just seems a really painfull solution
16:09:46 [anne]
for no real problem
16:09:53 [aaronlev]
and 2) they can read the localizations definied for the role and properties and changes
16:10:09 [zcorpan_]
the url is just an opaque string; there's no reason the same processing model can't be applied to the prefix directly
16:10:11 [anne]
you'd expect all those browsers to hit that namespace URI all the time?
16:10:28 [aaronlev]
anne: i'd cache the info
16:10:47 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: how do i map the prefix to a URL?
16:10:56 [aaronlev]
to fetch the definition?
16:11:05 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: you don't, you just use the prefix
16:11:18 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: oh? what do you do with the definition?
16:11:41 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: following the URI for namespaces is not how namespaces in xml work
16:11:55 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: you fetch the inheritance, the properties and the localization for the role and properties, as well as any special rules for calculating the name
16:12:08 [anne]
why all these theoretical issues about extensibility and inheritence etc.?
16:12:26 [aaronlev]
inheritancenot theoretical, for example xbl uses it
16:12:42 [anne]
well yes, but XBL is not a stopgap solution
16:12:47 [aaronlev]
i agree it's too complicated, and that xbl would be great
16:12:54 [aaronlev]
but xbl isn't going to happen, i don't believe
16:13:04 [aaronlev]
there's no market pressure to make it happen
16:13:13 [aaronlev]
it needs to be everywhere to succeed
16:13:19 [aaronlev]
in all browsers
16:13:26 [anne]
dunno, fetching URIs and invoking an RDF parser...
16:13:41 [aaronlev]
i didn't say i liked that, the pf is open to other ideas, so i'm asking for yours
16:13:50 [anne]
i'm saying you don't need it
16:14:12 [aaronlev]
the problem is that content is always genrations ahead of where AT tools exist, and being to define how to treat new kinds of objects is a very good idea
16:14:16 [anne]
i'm saying their won't be many successful extensions unless AT vendors push hard for it
16:14:35 [anne]
extensions would come from AT vendors, not the other way around
16:14:48 [aaronlev]
i don't know
16:14:52 [anne]
increasing pageload on pages seems not something that's really acceptable
16:14:56 [aaronlev]
honestly i think xbl is the only technically good solution
16:15:03 [aaronlev]
but that it won't happen
16:15:07 [aaronlev]
so i feel we're stuck on this one
16:15:35 [zcorpan_]
we could be implementing xbl instead of doing this ;)
16:15:59 [anne]
just not by me
16:16:02 [aaronlev]
in opera, yeah
16:17:06 [aaronlev]
look, i told everyone this was overengineered and too complicated
16:17:22 [aaronlev]
but i do like the idea of being able to describe inheritance and semantics of a widget
16:17:27 [aaronlev]
e.g. when this property changes, do this
16:17:38 [aaronlev]
because at vendors are tiny and can't keep up with the web
16:17:44 [aaronlev]
and the problem will only get worse
16:18:16 [aaronlev]
i don't think you can say that a predefined set of roles and states has served a11y very well up until now
16:18:26 [anne]
why would new roles be used that don't work in ATs but do work after additional pageloads?
16:18:30 [anne]
that seems silly
16:18:45 [aaronlev]
why would additional page loads be required?
16:18:59 [anne]
to fetch info about the roles that are not supported
16:19:15 [aaronlev]
if a11y is active the accessible page load finished event would wait until the info is feteched
16:19:41 [anne]
it seems better for me as an author to simply use the one that is supported
16:20:03 [aaronlev]
sometimes the shoehorning works, sometimes it is too much of a stetech
16:20:09 [aaronlev]
rich and i have been doing a11y for about 20 years each
16:20:16 [aaronlev]
it's always been a problem
16:20:25 [aaronlev]
to limit developers to shoehorning in these situations
16:20:27 [anne]
yes, interop too
16:20:41 [aaronlev]
looking ahead something better should be invented
16:20:46 [anne]
for the 5 years I've been involved (if it's not a year more or so)
16:20:47 [aaronlev]
and defining a taxonomy is logical
16:21:02 [anne]
long term this is not going to work
16:21:09 [anne]
i think
16:21:23 [aaronlev]
why, inheritance and taxonomies are used all over the place in computing
16:21:27 [anne]
just like longdesc, alt, headers, etc. don't work
16:21:29 [aaronlev]
it's not magic
16:21:45 [anne]
afterthought accessibility has mostly failed, betting on it doesn't seem smart
16:21:59 [aaronlev]
anne: i didn't disagree that it was too complicated
16:22:08 [aaronlev]
i disagreed that some solution is not needed
16:22:17 [aaronlev]
and that shoehorning was the best way
16:22:22 [aaronlev]
i think other ideas should be considered
16:22:30 [aaronlev]
and we should try to advance things
16:22:47 [anne]
i think the simple idea should be tried out first
16:23:03 [aaronlev]
we are
16:23:05 [anne]
and then we can revisit the whole thing in a year or so after we've examined some actual content that works in Opera / Firefox
16:23:10 [aaronlev]
we are starting simple
16:23:59 [aaronlev]
all i suggested was that a few lines of code are worth it for checking a non "wairole:" prefix to see if it's for one of the standard WAI roles
16:24:13 [aaronlev]
so that we can have forward compat with future content
16:24:18 [aaronlev]
if we go that way
16:24:20 [anne]
all I pointed out was a lot of problems with qnames in content
16:24:25 [anne]
which were not addressed
16:25:13 [aaronlev]
anne: so you think they will go away completely?
16:25:43 [anne]
I'm not sure what you mean
16:25:46 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: future content can use the "wairole:" prefix, and unknown values will be ignored either way. so we won't really be more future proff by looking up namespaces
16:26:26 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: it just seemed weird to me to half support an xml feature in xhtml
16:26:39 [aaronlev]
it's there and cheap to impl
16:26:46 [aaronlev]
anyway we've talked about it too much
16:26:56 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: it's not an xml feature, actually
16:27:10 [anne]
qnames in content are a made up feature
16:27:18 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: would you consider putting a not in there saying it's not checked, and may be in the future if needed
16:27:22 [anne]
and not really defined either in terms of dynamic changes to content etc.
16:27:35 [zcorpan_]
anne: isn't there such a note already?
16:27:36 [anne]
but that's besides the points I raised earlier, as these are addressable
16:27:56 [anne]
zcorpan_, does it deal with inserting xmlns attributes and such?
16:28:28 [zcorpan_]
anne: i don't understand the q
16:28:50 [anne]
<role="x:x"> with some xmlns:x declared
16:28:55 [anne]
I can remove that xmlns:x
16:29:04 [anne]
I can put a new xmlns:x closer to the role attribute with another value
16:29:10 [anne]
I can change the value of xmlns:x
16:29:12 [anne]
etc.
16:29:32 [zcorpan_]
authors are required to declare prefixes
16:29:59 [anne]
that doesn't solve any implementation issue mentioned above :)
16:30:09 [zcorpan_]
indeed
16:30:11 [anne]
(anyway, the real problems are with writing agnostic CSS and DOM script)
16:30:40 [anne]
(for eqvuivalent documents that happen to use different prefixes)
16:31:04 [zcorpan_]
right. the practical solution to that (for authors) is to treat prefixes as fixed and ignore the namespaces
16:31:09 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i see the note, i think that's new,thanks
16:31:22 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok
16:31:39 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: where did you post it?
16:31:55 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: to www-archive
16:32:11 [zcorpan_]
i will send an email to public-html and public-xhtml2
16:32:14 [anne]
zcorpan_, the actual solution is not to introduce something as horrid as qnames into HTML
16:32:22 [anne]
"qnames in content"
16:32:24 [zcorpan_]
anne: agree
16:32:45 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: xtech?
16:32:55 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ?
16:33:07 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: wai-xtech, it's the mailing list where people discuss aria
16:33:43 [anne]
hmm, what about http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2007JulSep/0000.html btw?
16:33:51 [anne]
seems that the PFWG ignores comments
16:34:04 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i can cc wai-xtech if you want
16:34:42 [aaronlev]
thanks
16:34:44 [aaronlev]
yes
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16:38:24 [zcorpan_]
wai-xtech is the PFWG, right?
16:38:46 [aaronlev]
right, i can get you info for it, 1 sec
16:39:01 [aaronlev]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/
16:39:13 [aaronlev]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/participation.html
16:39:38 [zcorpan_]
thanks
16:41:44 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: still missing an abstract
16:42:26 [zcorpan_]
http://tinyurl.com/23ur7s
16:42:33 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yeah
16:42:45 [aaronlev]
how about "Details of proper usage of ARIA markup for authors and ARIA markup processing for user agents"
16:44:18 [aaronlev]
"There should be as few different ways as possible to use role/ARIA."
16:44:40 [aaronlev]
Maybe, The number of different possible ways to use ARIA should be minimized, and include only variations that are necessary
16:45:11 [aaronlev]
emphasizing that we are simplifying not restricting unnecessarily
16:45:30 [zcorpan_]
yep, sounds better
16:45:46 [zcorpan_]
added an abstract
16:46:44 [aaronlev]
because there are some practical things we did that people might argue needlessly about
16:46:53 [zcorpan_]
ok, removed
16:47:33 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: the proposal you point to there doesn't have the abstract but the old URL does
16:47:57 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: right, the point of sending it to www-archive was to get a dated version of the draft :)
16:48:47 [zcorpan_]
i can also point to the simon.html5.org version in the email
16:49:04 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yeah so if you update it based on comments new people comment on that
16:49:11 [aaronlev]
can you remind me why we don't allow xhtml2:role in svg?
16:49:16 [aaronlev]
but we allow xhtml:role?
16:49:36 [aaronlev]
i guess that's fine
16:49:47 [zcorpan_]
because "The number of different possible ways to use ARIA should be minimized, and include only variations that are necessary" :)
16:49:51 [aaronlev]
yeah
16:49:57 [aaronlev]
should we note that specifically?
16:50:18 [aaronlev]
well, i'm ok with how it is
16:50:28 [zcorpan_]
xhtml2:role is just something that was implemented and is not defined anywhere
16:50:44 [aaronlev]
we'll see what people say anyway
16:50:48 [aaronlev]
alright, ship it :)
16:50:57 [zcorpan_]
ok
16:51:20 [aaronlev]
oops, one thing
16:51:36 [aaronlev]
you say for html that people can't say <role="wairole:checkbox">
16:51:44 [aaronlev]
i still allow that "wairole:" as a predefined prefix
16:52:00 [aaronlev]
i thought you wanted html and xhtml to work the same way as much as possible
16:52:26 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: that's just authoring conformance reqs
16:52:31 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: doesn't affect UAs
16:52:35 [aaronlev]
ah
16:52:44 [aaronlev]
true
16:53:11 [aaronlev]
i think a couple of headings showing where the authoring conformance section is
16:53:16 [aaronlev]
vs. the user agent processing section
16:53:19 [aaronlev]
would make it clearer
16:53:45 [zcorpan_]
ok
16:57:03 [zcorpan_]
email sent
16:58:41 [zcorpan_]
added headings
17:05:55 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: maybe the title of the doc should be "Proposal: proper usage and processing of ARIA markup"
17:06:02 [aaronlev]
because ARIA Proposal is too generic
17:06:14 [aaronlev]
anyway, that's a nit, great work
17:10:49 [zcorpan_]
that sounds more like an abstract than a title... :)
17:11:08 [zcorpan_]
it should be convenient to refer to the thing using the title, imho
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17:13:26 [anne]
yeah
17:13:41 [anne]
at some point it will hopefully define all relevant aspects, too
17:13:55 [anne]
not just the string details it handles now
17:14:10 [zcorpan_]
right
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20:18:59 [anne]
Hixie, this offline stuff integrates with the HTML parser, what about XML?
20:20:04 [anne]
(I suppose this is something you considered yourself as well, I'm just curious.)
20:21:24 [anne]
maybe it matters less in XML...
20:24:13 [Hixie]
it doesn't integrate well with xml
20:24:16 [Hixie]
in particular PIs screw up
20:24:25 [Hixie]
but see the navigation section for my current attempt
20:27:33 [anne]
in "Page load processing model for XML files" it mentions "Step 10" which points to Step 11...
20:27:42 [anne]
oh, "step 10" (lowercase s)
20:58:37 [DanC]
mjs, are you done with your editing pass over the design principles? hmm... no mjs... anne, do you know if he's done?
20:59:12 [mjs]
DanC: no - it got slightly delayed by work distractions but I'll have time to make more progress this evening
20:59:26 [mjs]
DanC: at some point I'd suggest to ship it instead of waiting more
21:00:17 [DanC]
oh... you're here after all. (I'll learn to use this IRC client one day...)
21:00:33 [DanC]
I'm ready to (propose to) ship when you are.
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21:31:04 [anne]
whoa, http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000428.html ...
21:33:23 [Dashiva]
I second that ellipsis
21:38:44 [kingryan]
since the HTML WG is so openly hostile, he's decided to become more hostile and more open about his hostility?
21:40:03 [anne]
i've no idea
21:40:52 [anne]
i wonder what Opera did wrong
21:41:13 [anne]
or the other browser vendors for that matter
21:41:55 [hsivonen]
hmm. just about every jibe about html4all on IRC has been based on the irony of "IRC cabal" and actually having a secret mailing list
21:42:41 [anne]
yeah, nothing is really based on any technical issues afaict
21:43:45 [anne]
they can call us the "IRC cabal" but laughing about their private mailing list is not allowed... oh well, don't think it's my problem
21:43:46 [Philip_]
There have been occasions where I thought it'd be good to comment on technical issues they've mentioned on their list, but it's hard to do that when you can't post to it
21:44:14 [hsivonen]
Philip_: I subscribed successfully and am allowed to post
21:44:41 [Philip_]
hsivonen: Oh, I hadn't realised they'd changed it now
21:47:42 [Dashiva]
anne: I think the formal complaint over a few jokes in #whatwg set the bar pretty high already
21:50:44 [Hixie]
i wonder which "closed small group" he's referring to
21:50:56 [anne]
follow-up from DanC: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000429.html
21:51:18 [anne]
Hixie, I'd suspect the people chatting in #whatwg mostly
21:51:22 [Hixie]
clearly not the whatwg (800+ people and open), nor the #whatwg (the pinacle of openness, with self-hosted archives)
21:51:32 [Hixie]
unless he has a new definition of "closed" that i am not aware of
21:52:11 [Philip]
It can be socially closed even if it's technically open
21:52:33 [anne]
(which was forwarded, not sure where DanC e-mailed it initially...)
21:52:57 [Dashiva]
Philip: Can't be any more closed than a private mailing list
21:54:03 [kingryan]
anne: it seems that followup is bound to be misinterpretted
21:54:28 [kingryan]
it seems that DanC just wants *more* editors, not to replace the existing ones
21:54:36 [Hixie]
Philip: i haven't seen any sign that we are socially closed either, i mean, we actively invited Steven F to the IRC channel yesterday and spoke with him, I didn't see anyone being hostile there.
21:56:13 [Hixie]
anyway, as far as i can tell this is just john playing us
21:56:29 [beowulf]
when did html4all appear?
21:56:32 [Hixie]
he did publically say that he would engage in a mission of divide and conquer
21:56:38 [Hixie]
beowulf: early august
21:58:52 [hsivonen]
though it didn't become known until late August. I found out only when I returned from Romania at the start of September
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22:01:43 [beowulf]
was it mentioned on the html-wg list? i must have missed it
22:02:18 [anne]
just on IRC
22:02:44 [anne]
i think it was "spotted" because @html4all.org was cc'ed in some e-mail or something
22:03:51 [Philip]
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070824#l-227 seems to be the first mention of the wiki, presumably via Referer
22:05:34 [beowulf]
so why is html4all trying to remove the editor of... no don't answer that
22:10:19 [Philip]
I expect they're not a unified monolithic group with a single set of principles that they all agree on, so it's probably better to wonder why certain people want something rather than why the group does
22:22:17 [anne]
heh, http://www.royal-tunbridge-wells.org/ longdesc= points to a non-existing URL...
22:22:24 [anne]
maybe I should e-mail an open letter
22:24:26 [beowulf]
i looked at the html of that page a while ago, i think when we were being called lazy and stupid, it didn't inspire me ...
22:24:35 [anne]
if you add .org it points to a 404
22:24:54 [Hixie]
anne: as a community leader, i have to ask you to not be so derisive
22:25:22 [beowulf]
by we i don't mean you, fwiw
22:26:12 [anne]
Hixie, this is a serious accessibility breach, you have to understand
22:26:24 [Hixie]
(i was kidding)
22:26:36 [anne]
(too)
22:27:20 [Hixie]
i was interested to hear that as editor i'm supposed to be doing leadership work in the html working group, though
22:27:41 [Dashiva]
I want to comment, but the joke would be trouble, and explaining why I don't make the joke would be trouble as well, so I might as well not write this line
22:27:44 [Hixie]
i wonder how i'm allowed to use this new authority
22:27:55 [Dashiva]
You are our secret google overlord, after all
22:29:04 [Philip]
anne: "I don't think this should be solved in Selectors [...] as it would require specific knowledge about which attributes contain qnames et cetera" - but there's already selectors for space-separated-list values and language values, which don't need UAs to have any specific knowledge about attributes
22:30:55 [anne]
Philip, given foo="x:x" how can I select x in namespace "bar" regardless of what its prefix is?
22:31:06 [anne]
afaict there's no such syntax
22:31:15 [anne]
maybe I should have mentioned that more explicitly...
22:31:18 [Philip]
You solve the problem in Selectors by making new syntax
22:31:48 [anne]
that would allow each attribute to take qnames
22:31:50 [anne]
ugh
22:32:20 [Hixie]
is | allowed on the RHS yet? it's not, is it?
22:32:21 [Philip]
You can already select elements that have a specific space-separated word in their alt text
22:32:34 [Hixie]
we could have [foo|bar~=xx|yy]
22:32:42 [Hixie]
and [foo|bar=xx|yy]
22:33:00 [anne]
aah, blasphemy!
22:33:07 [Hixie]
(like authors would understand _that_)
22:33:17 [Hixie]
"please sir, hit me harder, sir"
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22:45:56 [beowulf]
let's not be down on us authors
22:46:07 [beowulf]
we get a hard time as it is
22:50:05 [Dashiva]
Real authors write their HTML in machine language, and use browser detection to determine which architecture to serve for
22:58:20 [beowulf]
you don't realise how sensitive we are, all these hurtful comments about being lazy and stupid ...
23:02:34 [mjs]
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23:04:26 [Philip]
The Perl community is nice since laziness is a virtue there
23:06:23 [Philip]
("It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it.")
23:06:53 [Philip]
Sadly stupidity is not considered a good thing
23:07:55 [beowulf]
*sniff*
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23:12:19 [Philip]
http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000429.html - hmm, they deleted the message?
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23:12:50 [anne]
I suppose that's because DanC didn't give them permission to forward it and they did so anyway
23:13:28 [anne]
not the first time btw: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000381.html
23:13:45 [anne]
(although I'm not sure Rich knows about it)
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07:37:42 [Steve]
html4all man here, morning all
07:38:39 [Hixie]
hey steve
07:40:12 [Steve]
<Philip> said I expect they're not a unified monolithic group with a single set of principles that they all agree on, so it's probably better to wonder why certain people want something rather than why the group does. philip is spot on here most of the people i hardly know and have widely differing views from
07:42:05 [Steve]
but am happy to answer any queries where i can, but would rather observe and talk about relevant issues that i can give some constructive input to
07:42:25 [Hixie]
it's been pretty quiet here tonight
07:42:31 [Hixie]
i think most people are off doing other things
07:42:59 [Hixie]
i'm trying to work out where i should put the offline web apps api
07:43:07 [Hixie]
on Window, on Window.navigator, or elsewhere
07:43:40 [Hixie]
the onLine attribute is on window.navigator
07:43:53 [Hixie]
which is why i'm considering putting the rest there
07:43:57 [Hixie]
but it doesn't really feel right
07:43:59 [Steve]
hixie: i can be of no help with that one :-(
07:44:06 [Hixie]
Steve: no worries
07:44:31 [Hixie]
yesterday i was considering introducing a new object window.cache for this stuff
07:45:11 [Hixie]
window.cache.add(), window.cache.remove(), window.cache.update(), window.cache.status...
07:45:18 [Hixie]
i guess that would be nice and conceptually easy
07:45:42 [Hixie]
maybe the events could even fire on that object
07:45:44 [Hixie]
hmmm
07:47:22 [anne]
navigator isn't that bad, it's after all a UA object
07:47:47 [Hixie]
yeah but it's wrong... you're not futzing with the UA
07:48:26 [anne]
you sort of are, if you switch to a different UA later it won't have the same offline cache
07:48:39 [anne]
s/you/the user/
07:48:40 [Hixie]
by that argument, everything should be in window.navigator
07:49:13 [anne]
that's sort of convincing to not do it, yes
07:49:22 [anne]
:)
07:50:07 [Hixie]
i wish JS/DOM had strongly typed enums, sigh
07:52:43 [Steve]
off topic but something you may be able to help with Ian: i want to do a small scale study of images and their alts, but in the test design i want to get a truly random sample of say 100 urls, any ideas on how to acheive this? or would it be btter to focus on pages from the most popular sites?
07:54:55 [anne]
I'm pretty sure Philip would be able to help you with some URIs which are sort of random
07:55:19 [Hixie]
i can get you a random sample of 100 urls if you like, but sadly a representative random sample of 100 pages will probably get you about 45 porn pages, 45 spam pages, and 10 pages of dead forums, or something like that
07:56:09 [Hixie]
you're probably best doing a crawl seeded at some more reputable site (though i recommend not picking dmoz, just because that's what everyone usually picks, and variety in these studies would be good)
07:56:23 [Hixie]
and just picking 100 of the first 100,000 pages you crawl, at random
07:56:34 [Hixie]
by following every link
07:56:45 [Hixie]
(and avoiding dupes/loops)
07:57:11 [Hixie]
Philip has been doing a bunch of work on small scale studies like this, he might be able to give better advice
07:58:49 [Steve]
cool thanks; i just want to ensure that my sample is not tainted by me unconsciuosly, btw i have looked for other studies of this nature but have not found any, anybody else seen anything?
07:59:22 [anne]
lots of informal data gathering
07:59:41 [Steve]
what i want to do is classify images (decorative, functional, spacer etc) and then compare their alts (or lack of)
08:01:25 [anne]
for instance, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Longdesc_usage documents some usage of longdesc (different from the stats Hixie gave, based on a much smaller sample)
08:02:08 [Steve]
anne: have seen that thanks
08:02:50 [Hixie]
Steve: of alt attributes in particular?
08:03:29 [anne]
there was something similar for <input usemap> but that was just done on #whatwg and not documented anywhere else
08:03:47 [Hixie]
i don't know of any research where people have studied alt attributes by hand
08:03:49 [Steve]
hixie: yes, perhaps should include title attributes as well
08:04:17 [Hixie]
the studies i do myself are all on such large datasets that manual examination only makes sense once you have pruned the data somehow (as we did with longdesc, e.g.)
08:04:35 [Hixie]
i think it would be a great thing to look at though
08:06:01 [Steve]
i want to get a picture of relative usage patterns for different types of images and how/if the the alt is provided and how useful it is, i know the results are going to be depressing (for me) but..
08:06:21 [Hixie]
the results are sadly always depressing when you look at real usage
08:06:25 [Hixie]
it's so sad
08:06:42 [Hixie]
93% of pages i looked at in one study (of several billion pages) had at least one major syntax error
08:06:56 [Hixie]
that's not even looking at things like duplicate IDs and other errors
08:08:27 [krijnh2]
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08:08:51 [mjs]
Hixie: window.application?
08:08:58 [mjs]
or is that better reserved for something else
08:09:03 [mjs]
(re your earlier point of wonderment)
08:10:39 [Hixie]
probably better kept for something bigger
08:10:40 [Hixie]
though who knows
08:11:08 [Hixie]
i'm wondering where the events should go, too
08:11:35 [Hixie]
we already are planning on having window.ononline, should we have window.onupdating, or window.cache.onupdating?
08:11:41 [Hixie]
or should we only use addEventListener
08:11:48 [Hixie]
aah, so many decisions
08:13:03 [anne]
move them to .cache I'd say
08:13:08 [anne]
window is already _so_ overloaded
08:13:28 [anne]
(maybe so badly it can't hurt, but still)
08:13:55 [anne]
people can type cache.onupdating which isn't that bad either
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08:37:22 [anne]
Hixie, what happens btw if someone has var cache = foo in his code, that simply overwrites it?
08:38:02 [mjs]
anne: new Window properties in general need to be replaceable to avoid compat issues
08:38:40 [anne]
can you find out from the IDL whether a property is replaceable in ES?
08:39:46 [mjs]
I don't know if you can in the flavor of IDL that HTML5 uses, but I believe Bindings For DOM will cover this
08:40:00 [Hixie]
yeah
08:40:04 [anne]
k, cool
08:40:10 [Hixie]
it's on heycam's list, at least
08:40:12 [Hixie]
i put it there :-)
08:40:26 [Hixie]
offtopic, but:
08:40:57 [Hixie]
search for the paragraph starting "The improved ranking algorithms"
08:41:07 [Hixie]
and do the sample query on google and the new msn live search
08:41:37 [Hixie]
neither really answer the question asked, but it's hard to say that msn live search's results are more relevant than google's...
08:44:11 [mjs]
indeed - poorly chosen example
08:44:22 [anne]
for that example I get his site back on google btw :)
08:44:43 [mjs]
ditto
08:45:23 [anne]
but neither gives "useful" results
08:45:42 [mjs]
but on live search, you get porn, a radio station, and some band links
08:45:46 [Hixie]
yeah i love that google is so fresh that we can serve back that site even though it was only posted a few hours ago
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08:53:09 [mjs]
looks like the kind of quality effort you would expect from the company that brought you Zune and Vista
08:55:47 [Hixie]
well in all fairness their update does seem like a major step forward
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09:05:38 [zcorpan_]
hmm, i kinda like matthew's proposal. it doesn't help with roles in other vocabs, but that might not really matter
09:06:20 [zcorpan_]
it also means we don't have to step on the toes of the xhtml role module
09:06:34 [anne]
what about all the existing role= usage?
09:06:59 [zcorpan_]
that would require the wairole: prefix
09:07:03 [anne]
well, "all"
09:07:24 [anne]
oh, you want both now? ouch
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09:07:46 [zcorpan_]
well, i don't think firefox wants to drop support for role="wairole:foo"
09:08:03 [zcorpan_]
that's not to say we'll implement it in opera
09:09:08 [zcorpan_]
i dunno. having another attribute might make it more messy
09:09:23 [anne]
what would the solution for SVG be?
09:09:41 [anne]
introduce aria-role there too? :)
09:10:07 [zcorpan_]
no, use the "namespaced" role="wairole:foo"
09:10:13 [zcorpan_]
er
09:10:16 [zcorpan_]
html:role=..
09:10:19 [zcorpan_]
even
09:10:37 [zcorpan_]
hmm, it seems messy
09:12:12 [anne]
that's ugly
09:12:23 [zcorpan_]
yeah
09:12:29 [anne]
you'd want html:aria-role there then or something
09:12:35 [anne]
or simply aria-role
09:12:50 [zcorpan_]
yeah, html:aria-role might work
09:12:50 [anne]
hijacking role= seems like a more straightforward solution
09:13:11 [zcorpan_]
agree
09:13:24 [anne]
(if you actually want people to use it you should just introduce the attribute in no namespace on SVG)
09:13:43 [zcorpan_]
that's up to the svg wg
09:13:46 [anne]
although maybe they're used to it with the ugly xlink stuff
09:13:52 [zcorpan_]
yeah
09:13:59 [zcorpan_]
they might even like that it is namespaced :)
09:15:13 [anne]
soon you'll get <a:b c:d="e:f=g:h">
09:16:16 [anne]
and authors will rejoice
09:18:54 [zcorpan_]
ha
09:20:16 [anne]
<a:b c:d="e:f='g:h'"> of course, unquoted inner attribute values are bad practice
09:22:21 [zcorpan_]
not well-formed! well-formedness is an xml feature.
09:23:04 [anne]
like qnames in content?
09:23:13 [zcorpan_]
yes :)
09:41:48 [Dashiva]
<a:b=c:d=apple>
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11:22:57 [Philip]
Steve: I did http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgs.xhtml a while ago, extracting all the <img>s from some (32?) random pages from dmoz.org
11:25:07 [Steve]
philip: great thanks will have a look at it
11:26:22 [Steve]
philip: do you have a list of the pages?
11:27:24 [Philip]
Of just those 32, or of all of dmoz.org?
11:27:56 [Steve]
just the 32 that you used for the sample, i need to see the images in context
11:28:34 [Philip]
The images on that page link to the page they came from
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11:30:26 [anne]
that's pretty terrible
11:31:56 [Philip]
http://tinyurl.com/2tqcyr is the pages
11:32:30 [Philip]
and seven others had no <img>s
11:35:11 [Philip]
(No images: http://members.aol.com/AdbastonWI/ http://www.laktrans.pl/ http://web.mit.edu/mitbac/www/ http://monikapyrek.pl/ http://www.kurashiki-oky.ed.jp/school/midori-e/ http://democracy.stanford.edu/ http://amalgamatedservices.com/ )
11:42:08 [Steve]
Ok thanks
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11:55:19 [Sander]
yay, looks like I'm all caught up with the mailinglist again. *accidentally hit "mark all as read"* :/
12:04:46 [krijnh]
That works well :)
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12:20:39 [zcorpan_]
karl: re http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/09/setting-default-style-sheet.html , that is a non-issue, because all browsers are forced to treat style="" as css
12:21:49 [zcorpan_]
karl: saying that authors should add content-style-language to declare text/css is just wasting their time (even though html4 says it's required)
12:21:52 [karl]
zcorpan_: read the article I say so
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12:22:20 [zcorpan_]
karl: right, so why do you suggest that authors should add the declaration?
12:23:00 [karl]
because it is still a requirement for now. HTML 5 is far to be a spec *yet*.
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13:11:12 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: what are your thoughts about aria-role?
13:23:49 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: basicaly, not backwards compatible
13:24:01 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: will break dojo a11y
13:24:13 [aaronlev]
i understand why people would like that for consistency
13:24:38 [anne]
i think we should just fork role= and be done with it
13:25:12 [aaronlev]
i didn't read his whole mail, he wants to keep both role and have aria-role?
13:25:27 [anne]
implement the simple solution, have people bitch about theoretical purity until they realize that reality is different...
13:25:40 [anne]
aaronlev, yeah, afaict
13:26:41 [aaronlev]
anne: he says replace role with aria-role
13:27:36 [anne]
well yes, but he also argues: "3) People who use |role| aren't confused by the lack of a namespace for ARIA roles and have a clear understanding that the roles are ARIA-related."
13:28:01 [aaronlev]
chris wilson wanted aria-role as well
13:28:15 [anne]
advantage being?
13:28:50 [anne]
and also have html:aria-role
13:29:06 [anne]
and just keep it simple, with a single value, etc.
13:30:47 [aaronlev]
advantage is consistency for html authors
13:31:19 [aaronlev]
but i'm not for it right now, mainly because of dojo+ff2 i guess
13:31:26 [anne]
i suppose, though it's a matter of perspective
13:31:36 [anne]
role= indicates the widget where aria-* indicates the state
13:31:42 [anne]
there's some consistency in that too
13:31:54 [anne]
it just means forking role=...
13:37:02 [aaronlev]
anne: it won't kill me either way but it will be a pain for the dojo folks who are the main user of ARIA right now
13:37:50 [anne]
pain with distributing the new code or updating existing code?
13:38:17 [anne]
seems like updating won't be that hard as the code becomes simpler and it's only a few strings here and there...
13:38:29 [aaronlev]
well w/o backwards compat they have to choose ff2 or ff3
13:38:41 [aaronlev]
if we move from |role| to |aria-role| in ff3
13:38:53 [aaronlev]
or they have to user agent sniff before setting the attribute
13:40:02 [zcorpan_]
yeah, with fx2 compat in mind, i don't like aria-role
13:40:25 [anne]
seems like a good motivator for people to upgrade :)
13:42:35 [aaronlev]
anne: well dojo is coming out before ff3
13:42:53 [aaronlev]
i'm told that they must have a11y for ff2, i tried to argue just for targetting ff3
13:43:04 [aaronlev]
it does seem like a silly reason
13:45:28 [Philip]
They could set both role="foo" and aria-role="foo" to be compatible with both versions
13:45:52 [anne]
good point
13:46:11 [anne]
it's indeed not one or the other
13:46:31 [anne]
(as far as authoring is concerned, I hope it is for UAs!)
13:49:26 [zcorpan_]
in the proposal, role="wairole:foo" will work in both
13:49:37 [zcorpan_]
(fwiw)
13:49:41 [aaronlev]
Philip: yeah they could, true
13:50:52 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yes, so as for now they only have to set role
13:53:06 [zcorpan_]
indeed
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14:40:17 [hsivonen]
what good would aria-role do? compared to role?
14:40:48 [hsivonen]
now at least the aria-* naming schema is the minimal change to ARIA as opposed to second-guessing the names some more
14:45:48 [anne]
it would not conflict with the xhtml2 wg or any other ideas people might about role
14:46:11 [anne]
i suppose it also makes it a little bit more clear it's for accessibility, but apart from that, dunno
14:50:58 [hsivonen]
anne: I thought namespaces were supposed to solve any conflicts between XHTML2 and anything else. :-)
14:51:47 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: the xhtml2 *wg*; the xhtml role attribute module is their spec
14:53:28 [anne]
i'm fine with either forking role= or creating aria-role but I rather not have both
14:53:37 [zcorpan_]
agree
14:53:48 [zcorpan_]
i don't have an opinion about which one
14:53:48 [hsivonen]
yeah.
14:54:03 [hsivonen]
intuitively, I'd go with role=.
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15:33:40 [beowulf]
i've just had a discussion were a certain company wouldn't allow background-images in the css because you can't add alt tags, and all images should have alt tags; is this sane?
15:34:36 [hsivonen]
beowulf: what were the images like?
15:34:41 [Philip]
Maybe you could argue that background-images in CSS have an implicit empty alt="", so it's fine to use them iff <img src=... alt=""> would be acceptable for that image
15:34:57 [beowulf]
hsivonen: eye candy
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15:35:38 [beowulf]
lifestyle images
15:35:43 [beowulf]
if you like
15:36:09 [beowulf]
but this was a black and white policy, images must have alt tags, therefore no images in css
15:36:48 [hsivonen]
beowulf: does lifestyle mean alt='group of smiling multiethnic people equally gender-divided doing sports' ?
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15:37:06 [beowulf]
hsivonen: yes
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16:25:21 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: lol
16:26:17 [aaronlev]
beowulf: tell them that background images are fine for images that are not interactive and are only for looks, adding no meaning
16:26:38 [aaronlev]
becuase the purpose is to make things better for blind users, and sometimes adding more alt text is just redundant clutter
16:32:47 [Philip]
That's far harder to explain than "images must have an alt attribute" :-(
16:33:45 [billmason]
"image tags must have an alt attribute". The explanation works fine paired with that.
16:34:24 [Philip]
What about CSS background image tags?
16:34:34 [billmason]
That's not a "tag".
16:34:49 [Philip]
That makes it harder to explain :-)
16:35:24 [zcorpan_]
"foreground images", "content images", "non-decorative images", ...?
16:35:39 [billmason]
Fine, 'HTML image tags must have an alt attribute.' You know, if the target audience is stuck on that concept, they shouldn't be trying to mandate anything from the code author. :)
16:36:14 [zcorpan_]
people who mandate things often don't have a clue :)
16:36:21 [billmason]
funny how that happens
16:38:27 [Philip]
It seems better if they can mandate some guidelines / checking tools which were written by people who do have a clue
16:38:34 [Philip]
so there's less chance for the mandaters to mess it all up
16:38:51 [Philip]
s/it all up/up all the details/
16:41:55 [zcorpan_]
Philip: where's the ` ? :)
16:43:28 [Philip]
zcorpan_: This network is small enough that nobody else has taken the non-suffixed name :-)
16:44:33 [zcorpan_]
Philip: ok :)
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18:43:22 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: what do you think about al's suggestion to use the first "aria" token, if any, instead of just the first token?
18:44:28 [aaronlev]
i didn't read it
18:44:37 [aaronlev]
sometimes i need to concentrate pretty hard to understand his emails
18:45:06 [zcorpan_]
yeah, it was a bit confusing
18:46:39 [aaronlev]
i give al a hard time
18:46:45 [aaronlev]
he uses some odd terminology
18:47:00 [aaronlev]
on our phone calls i need other people to translate his text into plain speak
18:47:33 [aaronlev]
i think he used the phrase "self-nucleating snowball" recently
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19:53:49 [anne]
seems that Al doesn't understand how the DOM works...
20:13:30 [anne]
hmm, we need <noflash> :)
20:13:31 [anne]
http://www.joshuabudich.com/SWCollection/
20:13:42 [anne]
people start using <noscript> for it, can't be good
20:14:15 [kingryan]
why not just object fallback?
20:15:08 [anne]
it's sad though that flash support is assumed
20:15:10 [kingryan]
<noobject> ?
20:15:29 [anne]
<i> <object>
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00:42:08 [DougJ]
I have not been able to follow the html-wg for some time. I have been reviewing the Maciej 'Proposal for Keyboard Shortcuts' and the Aaron 'ARIA in HTML threads.' Please comment on my take - <command> shortcuts would be used on 'plain' HTML pages, ie. the author does not use Javascript and ARIA would require the use of Javascript. Does ARIA provide any more functionality?
00:42:58 [mjs]
ARIA is not a mechanism for keyboard shortcuts
00:43:02 [mjs]
the two are orthogonal
00:43:13 [mjs]
some people think certain roles should be assigned a default keyboard shortcut
00:43:28 [mjs]
but I don't think there are any existing ARIA roles that would correspond to the semantics of a specific command
00:43:59 [aaronlev]
yeah you have to implement key nav with script
00:44:39 [aaronlev]
that makes it possible to have it be key navigable with IE as well anyway, which doesn't have ARIA support
00:44:49 [aaronlev]
and on Opera which is just starting to have ARIA support
00:45:09 [aaronlev]
hi mjs
00:45:49 [aaronlev]
i guess the 2 are complimentary, for good web 2.0 accesssibility you need both key nav and aria
00:45:53 [mjs]
I'm not sure what you mean by "implement key nav with script"
00:46:27 [mjs]
my proposal is for keyboard shortcuts for commands (like things you would find in the menu bar for a native app), not for keyboard navigation of controls (like with tab / shift-tab)
00:47:19 [mjs]
I don't see how ARIA is at all related to this
00:47:21 [aaronlev]
right, sorry, i'm talking about complex container controls
00:47:38 [mjs]
there are no ARIA roles for "Bold" or "Reply" or "New Document"
00:47:42 [aaronlev]
ARIA talks about using tabindex to enable complex navigation as found in tree controls and grids etc.
00:48:05 [aaronlev]
you might want to be able to arrow through those menus as well
00:48:06 [DougJ]
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ#What_is_ARIA_and_how_does_it_allow_for_accessible_JavaScript_widgets.3F section What is ARIA and how does it allow for accessible JavaScript widgets? speaks of keyboard navigation. But this is different, evidently, than the extent Maciej envisions shortcuts to reach.
00:48:26 [aaronlev]
DougJ: if you want to know what aria is read http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
00:48:41 [mjs]
I'm talking about special key combinations for specific commands
00:48:58 [mjs]
like when you hit Control-S in Microsoft Word on Windows and it saves the document
00:49:01 [mjs]
that's a keyboard shortcut
00:49:08 [mjs]
hitting tab to go to the next field is keyboard navigation
00:49:13 [aaronlev]
you're right
00:49:16 [aaronlev]
jus tired,
00:49:20 [aaronlev]
i saw the word keyboard
00:49:23 [DougJ]
I quoted from the FAQ.
00:49:40 [aaronlev]
DougJ: i see
00:49:48 [mjs]
aaronlev: I'm not trying to pick on you, I just want to clarify for DougJ
00:49:54 [aaronlev]
np
00:50:27 [DougJ]
Thanks for the clarification - I was tending toward that.
00:50:37 [aaronlev]
yes right now if you want keyboard shortcuts you have to hack it with an onkeydown listener on <body> or something
00:50:50 [aaronlev]
onkeypress doesn't work the same in IE as others, so onkeydown works better i've found
00:51:16 [aaronlev]
IE doesn't fire onkeypress for everything you'd think it should
00:51:37 [mjs]
key events are an area where interoperability is lacking
00:51:45 [mjs]
and sadly the relevant DOM specs do not cover them at all
00:52:34 [mjs]
browsers also differ on whether you are allowed to see the key events for key combinations that are built-in browser shortcuts, and whether you can prevent the default action on them
00:53:30 [aaronlev]
i had to do a ton of work on all aspects of keyboard stuff in mozilla
00:53:44 [aaronlev]
it was a real pain
00:54:13 [aaronlev]
i inherited a mess and tried to clean it up some, but it's still nasty
00:54:26 [aaronlev]
there are so many details to it
00:54:36 [mjs]
indeed
00:54:56 [aaronlev]
and no one ever wants to work on it
00:57:13 [mjs]
we have someone who likes fixing keyboard stuff
00:57:26 [mjs]
but the lack of consistency between browsers and lack of formal spec make it painful
00:57:33 [aaronlev]
yes
00:59:55 [DougJ]
Observing the HTML5 communications at least showed me that my troubles in understanding some HTML4 weren't just me. And I appreciate more the UA developer's. And I also wonder how some of this 'basic' stuff was left alone in specifications? Oh, well, water over the ...
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05:02:45 [Hixie]
how do you mean?
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05:14:46 [karl]
this is a name identifying a person sending messages to the list. But that doesn't say what this person is doing related to this technology for hobbies, pro activities, etc. outside of the html wg life
05:47:48 [Hixie]
ah i see
05:48:21 [Hixie]
he's been a contributor for a long time, though, and many of his ideas have strongly influenced wf2's development
05:50:26 [karl]
yes it is why I would like to know what he is doing. To have strong opinions like this, he must be using the technology in a product or something or developing himself.
05:50:56 [karl]
This could be interesting to know what products, if any
05:51:10 [Hixie]
i had strong opinions long before i had any reason to :-)
05:51:17 [karl]
The name could be a mask to hide a company.
05:53:12 [karl]
We all have strong opinions. And we often make fool of ourselves in public. Internet Information space is 2d (very binary), when human information space is indy (bad play of words.)
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09:22:27 [zcorpan_]
hmm, perhaps i need a reference to the DOM in my proposal
09:22:50 [zcorpan_]
just like html5 says "...because this spec is defined in terms of the DOM"
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11:04:15 [zcorpan_]
mjs: s/popular/common/ re http://www.w3.org/mid/71213541-E533-420B-85FD-4322DE48075B@apple.com ;)
11:05:11 [mjs]
zcorpan_: heh
11:14:14 [hsivonen]
what kind of stakeholder role is Mike Wilson in?
11:16:56 [anne]
I think he's a developer
11:17:32 [hsivonen]
anne: Web developer or IE developer?
11:17:57 [anne]
not sure
11:18:47 [anne]
it's not very nice from MS to come with this I think as they haven't really contributed to any discussion and haven't acknowledged all the steps we made in the direction of their implementation
11:19:04 [anne]
mostly if there was a difference the IE way was picked, even when it was quite insane
11:21:55 [mjs]
it seems pretty late to object but I guess they haven't been following closely
11:22:07 [mjs]
to object in such a fundamental way I mean
11:22:32 [mjs]
but I also think "please make the spec toothless" is not a valid request in any case
11:23:42 [hsivonen]
it would certainly be nice if they said what's incompatible and how to change the spec to make it compatible
11:24:44 [mjs]
they said they don't have the resources to do extensive testing, and that they are unwilling to make any changes at all to their existing code
11:25:26 [mjs]
both of those seem like they would conflict with the idea of documenting the issues in detail
11:25:44 [anne]
the vision document is quite funny
11:25:48 [mjs]
I'm not sure they have real compatibility issues in mind, they just say any change might be a compat issue
11:25:55 [anne]
it talks about HTML parsers being expensive for mobile devices
11:26:20 [anne]
where a parser is one of the least significant things in a browser in terms of being expensive
11:26:25 [mjs]
as if parsing was the hard part
11:26:42 [mjs]
also, it's not like HTML parsing is more expensive than XML parsing
11:26:46 [anne]
(besides the fact that XML might be more complicated even, with all the DTD crazyness)
11:26:47 [mjs]
in either code size or runtime
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13:19:44 [beowulf]
which vision document is this?
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13:22:27 [zcorpan_]
hi aaronlev
13:22:40 [aaronlev]
hi zcorpan_
13:23:03 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: have you had time to try to grasp al's emails? :)
13:23:15 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: is it worth it?
13:23:36 [aaronlev]
what's the core issue?
13:24:12 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: only one thing: the proposal says to look at the first token (regardless of what it is), they want to look at the first aria token, if any
13:24:45 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: consider role="blah checkbox" vs role="checkbox blah"
13:25:25 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: in firefox, do you pick up "checkbox" in the former?
13:25:46 [aaronlev]
no, we just look at the first
13:26:07 [aaronlev]
but also, we expose an object attribute called xml-roles
13:26:18 [aaronlev]
which is just the role attribute exactly reproduced char for char
13:26:32 [aaronlev]
i realize that doesn't help much though
13:27:06 [aaronlev]
i'm sure we could do better with multiple roles, but no one is doing that yet
13:27:22 [aaronlev]
in fact no one is really using roles as landmarks at all, even the obvious ones like main and navigation
13:28:26 [aaronlev]
i guess, we have worse issues that i see as more important -- like harmonizing tree grid across platforms, handling the owns property better, caching relations (which i guess opera already does), and a few other things
13:31:26 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: ok. i don't really have an opinion. could you reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/p06110409c321afd45d23@%5B192.168.1.100%5D (where it says "let's check with aaron")?
13:33:02 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: on the one hand i'd like to address al's concern, but on the other hand it's a minor issue and i'd rather try to spec down the remaining big issues first
13:33:47 [zcorpan_]
it just requires authors who wish to use multiple roles to put the aria role first
13:38:28 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i'm wrong, we only allow one role in ff2
13:38:36 [aaronlev]
i'll reply
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13:44:08 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i changed the draft to expose the entire value in "xml-roles" (it said to only expose the role identifier it found for the mapping purposes)
13:47:15 [aaronlev]
ah, so are you going to start putting a11y API details in there?
13:47:25 [aaronlev]
i think it's a good idea to do that, but, not all a11y apis are the same
13:47:31 [zcorpan_]
yeah, probably
13:47:51 [aaronlev]
there are tradeoffs
13:48:04 [aaronlev]
in the past w3c splits that off into a techniques doc which just leads to a too-abstract spec imo
13:48:11 [aaronlev]
on the other hand web authors might be confused
13:48:28 [aaronlev]
and there are differences between atk/at-spi, Iaccessible2, Universal Access, UI Automation, etc.
13:48:39 [aaronlev]
but i'm glad to help
13:48:56 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: what's the last API for?
13:49:17 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: it is microsoft's new API for vista
13:49:22 [aaronlev]
what happened is they gave up on msaa
13:49:35 [aaronlev]
which was a problem, because people had lots of msaa code in apps and assistive tech
13:49:50 [aaronlev]
and UIA was just an API for managed code
13:50:12 [zcorpan_]
yeah, i'm not sure how to spec it in a sane way. in order to test it you probably need an accessibility api debugger...
13:50:17 [hsivonen]
oh. I wasn't up to speed on MS doing something other than MSAA
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13:50:36 [aaronlev]
so IBM worked with the community to build IAccessible2, which are API extensions to MSAA and matches closely with ATK/AT-SPI on Linux
13:50:39 [aaronlev]
I was part of that effort
13:50:43 [aaronlev]
it's what we're using in FIrefox now
13:51:13 [aaronlev]
because it can build on msaa support and yet is very similar to ATK, you can leverage a lot of existing code and get cross platform a11y
13:51:41 [aaronlev]
the AT vendors had a lot less work to implement support for it, because they get to build on top of exisiting support for MSAA
13:51:59 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping
13:52:06 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: is Universal Access a good match?
13:52:19 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: the proposal references that :)
13:52:51 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: universal access is cool because it just name value pairs. It's loosely spec'd which honestly is an advantage in this space, because you don't have to rev a whole lot of binary software in lock step to get new features in
13:53:01 [aaronlev]
you can just expose some new a11y property
13:53:04 [aaronlev]
and then ask ATs to support
13:53:05 [aaronlev]
that
13:53:21 [aaronlev]
But with binary APIs, adding new features is a total nightmare
13:53:45 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: and the values in the name value pairs don't have to be strings, it can be a hash table for example
13:53:56 [aaronlev]
so you can send any event data you want, for example, it's great
13:54:15 [aaronlev]
the big disadvantage is that there is really only one (closed) screen reader supporting it, which is owned by the platform vendors
13:54:31 [aaronlev]
so it is harder to influence them if you need new features, like accessible live regions or drag and drop, or whatever
13:55:09 [aaronlev]
but, to answer your question, the name/value pairs Apple is using most likely fit well enough, but we only have stub support for UA in Mozilla so I can't say what the major integration issues will be yet
13:55:12 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: OK, so one needs to know the magic keys supported by VoiceOver instead of merely writing to a particular set of function calls
13:55:26 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: right, and you can find out by looking at other apps
13:55:34 [aaronlev]
that apple has written, or looking at their docs
13:55:42 [aaronlev]
but docs are always wrong or out of date for anything like this
13:55:47 [aaronlev]
never gets all the details
13:56:12 [hsivonen]
ok
13:56:32 [aaronlev]
my big concern with spending a lot of resources on UA support in Mozilla is, how will we get Apple to change Voice Over when we need it, when obviously Safari is more important to them. I see a conflict of interest, but they aren't interested in open sourcing it
13:56:50 [aaronlev]
So we might let Opera take the lead on that one :)
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13:57:25 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: is hwaara actively working on it, though?
13:58:09 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: hwaara needed a real job instead of grants
13:58:16 [aaronlev]
so he has stopped working on it
13:58:20 [aaronlev]
we have a good start, though
13:58:25 [hsivonen]
ok. :-(
13:58:34 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: i think it's ok, one step at a time
13:58:39 [aaronlev]
we're doing a ton
13:59:18 [aaronlev]
but to be honest, if i had resources i'd consider putting them into ARIA support in WebKit first, because then we can influence Voice Over first
13:59:28 [aaronlev]
once everything works well there, we'll know exactly what support in Mozilla should look like
14:00:13 [aaronlev]
since my goal is a11y for the whole web
14:14:17 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: with http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessifyforum.com%2F&showsource=yes nothing is highlighted for the checkbox error
14:15:20 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: hmm. I had forgotten about that case. thanks
14:15:36 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: that's because the error is associated with a line
14:15:49 [hsivonen]
(as opposed to a character or a character range)
14:16:41 [hsivonen]
title.attrs =
14:16:41 [hsivonen]
( empty )
14:16:44 [hsivonen]
whoa
14:19:26 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: fix for the common attrs on <title> issue deployed. thanks.
14:19:44 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: welcome :)
14:21:12 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: the reasons for lacking text field and file upload are three-fold:
14:21:45 [hsivonen]
1) lack of UI design that works nicely without JS, with AT and doesn't bloat the default view
14:22:21 [hsivonen]
2) handling file uploads doesn't come for free with servlets. instead I have to do so disruptive integration of a third-party library
14:23:02 [hsivonen]
3) Should I force the user to pick the parser manually, when Content-Type is unavailable (text field) or unreliable (upload)?
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14:24:00 [hsivonen]
oh, and #1 should be theoretically relatively pure, too, since it is easy to ridicule a validator that isn't theoretically pure
14:25:05 [zcorpan_]
3) yes, although you could perhaps make a guess for upload and issue a warning if the user didn't choose
14:25:13 [zcorpan_]
based on e.g. file extension
14:25:59 [zcorpan_]
2) ok, personally i think textarea is more useful than upload, so i would be happy with textarea but no upload :)
14:26:54 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: ok, for now, you can work around the lack of textarea using Lachy's front-end
14:27:05 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: yep
14:27:44 [zcorpan_]
1) i can perhaps come with some ideas or a mockup later
14:28:27 [hsivonen]
cool
14:28:31 [zcorpan_]
i guess the js would have to be cluttered with two additional checkboxes in the default view when js is enabled
14:28:48 [zcorpan_]
(or buttons or whatever)
14:29:07 [zcorpan_]
s/js/ui/
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14:29:59 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: the W3C Validator uses a tabbed UI, but they got AT compat complaints lately about the particular impl
14:30:14 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: ok
14:31:18 [Lachy]
one day, I'll clean up those tools of mine to be more useful for testing hsivonen's validator.
14:32:14 [Lachy]
zcorpan_, let me know if there are any changes I could make to it to improve it for you
14:33:54 [zcorpan_]
Lachy: i've used your upload tool as input for validator.nu (not html5.validator.nu) when i wanted to change preset or something
14:35:08 [Lachy]
maybe I could add a function to do that in one step for you, so it generates the page and redirects you to the validator with it immediately
14:35:38 [zcorpan_]
yeah, that would be cool
14:36:08 [Lachy]
I'll see if I can do it tomorrow
14:36:18 [zcorpan_]
ok
14:36:28 [Lachy]
I'm too exhaused to think about it now, I just got back from web directions
14:37:05 [zcorpan_]
no worries :)
14:38:09 [hsivonen]
I wonder when I would have been better off writing my own XML parser
14:40:33 [hsivonen]
oh, I need to get column counting right with the BOM.
14:40:35 [hsivonen]
no fun
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15:03:52 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i think i'm gonna go ahead and change the spec to use the first aria role
15:04:13 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: unless it's a problem to change it in firefox
15:06:29 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: not a problem do pick out the aria role either
15:06:34 [aaronlev]
first aria role
15:06:54 [aaronlev]
whatever you decide
15:07:03 [aaronlev]
first role is obviously easiest
15:09:49 [zcorpan_]
yeah. first token that doesn't have a colon or has a colon but starts with "wairole:"
15:09:52 [zcorpan_]
i think
15:15:45 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: don't forget the xhtml role module roles have no prefix
15:15:59 [aaronlev]
so that rule wouldn't work for role="navigation menu"
15:19:30 [zcorpan_]
yeah, true. perhaps i instead need a table of all aria roles
15:21:13 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i have an array of wai-aria roles in alphabetical order. i think the most performant rule to implement might actually be: 1) get the role attribute, 2) for each aria role in alphabetical order, check to see if it is in the the role attribute
15:21:29 [aaronlev]
that way you only have to iterate once
15:21:32 [aaronlev]
but it's kind of a lame rule
15:22:58 [zcorpan_]
ok, so then it will pick up the second token if in "checkbox alert"?
15:23:11 [zcorpan_]
since alert is before checkbox in your array
15:24:08 [zcorpan_]
i'm ok with speccing that, just want to be clear that i understand it :)
15:27:19 [hsivonen]
that isn't particularly intuitive
15:28:17 [hsivonen]
splitting on space and comparing the tokens one-by-one against the array using binary search would give more intuitive results
15:29:01 [zcorpan_]
yeah, that's what i intended to spec first
15:29:27 [zcorpan_]
but i don't have an opinion about which way is used, so long as it's defined :)
15:30:18 [zcorpan_]
i think that in 99% cases there will only be one value anyway
15:32:33 [zcorpan_]
ok, i'll catch some friday beer instead and spec it when i know which way you want to implement in firefox :)
15:34:35 [aaronlev]
that's fine
15:34:51 [aaronlev]
what hsivonen said, but i don't think we need to spec the binary search of course
15:35:09 [aaronlev]
just spec that we use the first aria role
15:36:05 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: but, role="presentation" must be alone or it is ignored
15:36:27 [aaronlev]
because it's inconsistent to say it's presentation + something else
15:36:48 [aaronlev]
we check that separately in an earlier stage it would be fastest just to look for that in the string
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22:25:55 [anne]
hsivonen, http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%2F doesn't give any validation results?
22:26:04 [anne]
hsivonen, as in, it's unclear whether it "passed" or "failed"
22:39:26 [anne]
fun, the XHTML role module goes to Last Call this Monday or so...
23:09:08 [hsivonen]
anne: yeah, fallout from the Great ErrorHandler rewrite. will fix
23:21:56 [anne]
Hixie, maybe you can reuse the server sent events syntax?
23:22:42 [Hixie]
anne: not in its entirety, but one of the suggestions in the spec is similar, yes
23:25:13 [anne]
yeah, although it uses different comment syntax...
23:25:36 [anne]
i suppose it doesn't really matter, those formats are quite trivial to parse anyway
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15:59:02 [hsivonen]
anne: Re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070926#l-507 : I suggested doing inheritance chain fallback the same way CSS does font family fallback: by specifying a list of values in the order of preference and with a well-known value terminating the list
16:02:23 [hsivonen]
anne: interesting how alike we think. my reaction to extensions was also that they need to come from AT vendors--not site developers to be any good
16:03:04 [anne]
fallback might work
16:03:24 [anne]
role="foo bar" with bar being the fallback for foo...
16:05:09 [hsivonen]
anne: yes, that's what I meant
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17:02:25 [hsivonen]
source locations are now linkified when showing source
17:02:32 [hsivonen]
anne: ^
17:07:40 [anne]
I tried it on google.com, :target might be nice
17:18:57 [hsivonen]
anne: I intend to do the setTimeout thing to watch for hashchange an generate a class-based rule instead
17:19:13 [hsivonen]
:target doesn't handle ranges split across lines
17:19:17 [hsivonen]
but classes do
17:23:26 [anne]
fair point
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18:28:13 [anne]
hmm, sees the XHTML2 WG is heavily forking the XHTML namespace
18:28:55 [hsivonen]
anne: URL?
18:29:01 [anne]
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070926#l-96
18:32:02 [hsivonen]
Using a # version of the URI for XHTML2 WFM
18:32:54 [anne]
i don't think it's about that
18:33:00 [anne]
it redefines what rel= values are
18:37:17 [anne]
oh well, doesn't matter I suppose
18:42:29 [hsivonen]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/20070918/ turns rel='' over to qNames in content
18:47:24 [anne]
yeah
18:47:31 [anne]
all very evil
18:47:47 [anne]
it's a bit of a mess that they're playing with XHTML1 too
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21:01:30 [anne]
iirc danc is waiting for mjs to wrap up another round of feedback on hdp and will then push to hdp
21:01:46 [anne]
s/push to hdp/push to publish hdp
21:02:10 [schepers]
hdp?
21:02:18 [schepers]
oh
21:02:19 [schepers]
nm
21:06:13 [gsnedders]
anne: you know what he's planning for the rest?
21:06:42 [anne]
no
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21:21:31 [anne]
hsivonen, jgraham, maybe use a list for stuff like http://www.pointerklubben.se/stamtavla.asp?Id=S35236/97 ? i suppose the problem is that it doesn't give the desired presentional effect, but it does come a lot closer to a tree
21:22:53 [anne]
jgraham, as for tables without <th>, implying <th> there seems more harmful than it can do good as presentional tables are far more common
21:23:42 [anne]
(Speaking of layout tables, some group invented role=presentation to encourage people to use them in a legit way, isn't that awesome?)
21:31:00 [Dashiva]
And there was discussion on www-html for <layouttable> or similar
21:32:39 [anne]
it's beyond me how increasing the number of options to do things wrong is going to solve the actual problem here
21:35:43 [mjs]
CSS tables don't work in IE, and are kind of hard to use even when they work
21:36:11 [mjs]
some things can be done with floats or positioning instead, but it's often harder to achieve the same layout
21:36:25 [mjs]
so I can understand why people are unsatisfied with current options
21:37:04 [Dashiva]
You can't let people design using grids for a few years and then say "Ha-ha, stupid, now you're only allowed to use this limited content model!"
21:38:20 [anne]
yeah, CSS has been kind of bad at addressing flex layouts and such
21:38:43 [Philip]
CSS tables seem pretty useless since you can't do colspan/rowspan
21:39:05 [anne]
you can nest them :)
21:39:40 [Dashiva]
I'm sure you can create some incredibly evil way of generating containing tables with :before and :after :)
21:39:43 [anne]
but yeah, the CSS WG should prolly have worked on something like the XUL layout model or something in that direction
21:39:51 [anne]
Dashiva, only in theory
21:40:32 [anne]
(and actually, some people of the CSS WG have, but it never went further because it had to be integrated into the box model, which became hard to figure out)
21:40:36 [anne]
(aiui)
21:41:02 [Dashiva]
What ever happened to that css3 module we were all waiting for...
21:42:18 [anne]
I think some people in the CSS WG believe more in http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/ but I'm not really convinced that's a particularly great solution as it encourages layout designed for certain page sizes
21:42:34 [anne]
s/page sizes/screen sizes/
21:42:48 [Dashiva]
yeah
21:44:14 [anne]
but the current 'position' and 'float' hacks aren't great either
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22:41:20 [jgraham]
anne: The layout table thing really is a problem but popular screenreaders apparently have some algorithms for identifying layout tables so they would presumably not apply header association on those. I dunno how accurate the algorithms are though
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05:37:10 [gsnedders]
am I the only one getting annoyed at Dean Edridge's multiple emails?
05:39:05 [mjs_]
yes
05:39:08 [mjs]
er
05:39:10 [mjs]
I mean
05:39:13 [mjs]
no, you are not the only one
05:39:39 [mjs]
I think XHTML 5 would be a good name, but I think his messages pursuing that are annoying and unproductive
05:40:58 [gsnedders]
mjs: I'm emailing him about it (CC'd to chairs and www-archive)
05:49:42 [gsnedders]
(a while to write the email that is)
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06:50:37 [gsnedders]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Sep/0117.html
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11:46:46 [anne]
maybe "afterthought" should be "after-the-fact"
11:58:16 [zcorpan_]
hmm, i'm not sure i get the aol-buddylist fallback example
11:58:47 [zcorpan_]
would the aol-buddylist have an accessibility API mapping of its own?
12:00:12 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: either yes, or you have just uncovered a chunk of failed communication on the ARIA topic
12:00:35 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: if the answer is "no", I have severely misunderstood something
12:02:27 [anne]
zcorpan_, the idea is that you can specify a single widget type with fallbacks, like font-family in CSS
12:02:44 [anne]
so the widget type would be "aol-buddlylist" but it's "list" if that's not supported
12:04:42 [zcorpan_]
so "yes"
12:05:11 [anne]
yeah, unless it's bogus :)
12:05:36 [zcorpan_]
define bogus, please :)
12:05:52 [anne]
hmm
12:06:03 [anne]
bogus being a value that's incorrect and doesn't map to anything at all anywhere
12:06:21 [zcorpan_]
i.e. "not supported"?
12:07:00 [anne]
yeah, if you consider <html:bogus> to be like that
12:07:26 [zcorpan_]
ok
12:08:29 [zcorpan_]
not sure how to define it; i mean we don't want to directly disallow other types of roles that do other things than accessibility api mapping
12:08:42 [zcorpan_]
and such roles shouldn't suppress the aria mapping
12:08:47 [zcorpan_]
even if "supported"
12:08:51 [anne]
why don't we want to disallow those?
12:09:17 [anne]
another point of my proposal was to fork the XHTML role module
12:10:33 [zcorpan_]
supporting other roles isn't necessarily incompatible with doing the aria mapping, i don't see a good reason to ban them
12:10:40 [anne]
make role= work for a single thing, not hundreds and be done with it
12:10:46 [hsivonen]
fwiw, I had certain doubts when UI strings in RDF were mentioned
12:10:57 [hsivonen]
doubts about what "support" means, that is
12:11:32 [anne]
zcorpan_, 1) gives authors a clue as to what role= does; 2) simplifies stuff for implementors; 3) makes this fallback proposal work
12:12:10 [zcorpan_]
another thing: are these equivalent?: role="aol-buddylist" role="wairole:aol-buddylist"
12:12:42 [anne]
i'd say yes
12:13:07 [anne]
i'd also make wairole: non-conforming if it appears anywhere in role=
12:13:43 [zcorpan_]
we can do that later; dojo needs to do something that works in firefox 2
12:14:29 [anne]
dojo doesn't conform to anything afaict
12:14:37 [zcorpan_]
fair enough
12:16:10 [zcorpan_]
i'm not sure i like wairole: being stripped from all tokens, i think it makes more sense to have a list of tokens where each aria role has two strings representing the role
12:16:44 [anne]
good point, that does seem better
12:20:35 [anne]
I think letting role= do a lot of things is dangerous. We already have <object>. Lets not introduce another one (in attribute form!)
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13:00:19 [zcorpan_]
updated the spec; does it seem ok?
13:00:50 [anne]
I think you should remove the bit about http://www.w3.org/2002/06/xhtml2/
13:01:24 [anne]
wasn't it also the plan to have html:role not work on html:x
13:01:47 [zcorpan_]
that was the plan; does the spec say otherwise?
13:02:45 [anne]
the authoring requirements suggest otherwise
13:03:21 [anne]
it's also important that the custom role is supported by the AT, otherwise it's useless
13:03:48 [anne]
"Note: In this version of this specification, only the first supported role is used." can be removed
13:04:00 [anne]
and "Note: No namespace lookup of the attribute value is performed in this version of this specification." prolly too
13:04:02 [anne]
that's both by design
13:05:13 [anne]
you should prolly make it more clear that if the algorithm returns the empty string (null or none might be better) that the element then does not have an associated role identifier
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13:22:13 [hsivonen]
anne: I restored the human-readable validation result to (X)HTML and text outputs
13:22:26 [hsivonen]
anne: thanks for reminding me
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13:23:02 [anne]
hah, I said what, when? :)
13:23:54 [anne]
oh, http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%2F returns "validates" again
13:24:01 [hsivonen]
anne: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070929#l-8
13:28:36 [hsivonen]
hrm. putting the file control first would totally break streamability of multipart/form-data
13:28:48 [hsivonen]
but putting it last would be bad UI :-(
13:31:07 [anne]
you want XBL
13:32:52 [hsivonen]
if I move the file control on onsubmit, will the UA clear it for security reasons or something?
13:33:21 [zcorpan_]
anne: "Authors may specify a role attribute in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace on any element that is not in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml ... namespace." -- that doesn't allow <h:x h:role="">, no?
13:34:30 [anne]
oh, I read the first paragraph incorrectly, sorry
13:36:11 [zcorpan_]
anne: could you send the suggestion about the .../xhtml2/ namespace to the list(s), please?
13:36:43 [hsivonen]
is there an elegant way to run DOM manipulation script immediately when the <form> element on v.nu has got all its children inserted by the parser and that doesn't involve putting <script>foo();</script> in the content stream right after the form?
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13:37:12 [anne]
hsivonen, maybe you should reorder the controls onsubmit
13:37:30 [hsivonen]
anne: ok
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13:52:55 [anne]
zcorpan_, I suppose, at some point
13:53:54 [anne]
zcorpan_, prolly around the time I'll object against the authoring requirements mentioning namespaces and such
13:55:27 [anne]
zcorpan_, more about the algorithm, say "let the result of splitting the string on spaces be tokens"
13:55:48 [anne]
zcorpan_, for each <var>token</var> in <var>tokens</var>
13:56:14 [anne]
(is that operation ordered?)
13:57:18 [zcorpan_]
anne: the algorithm referenced does that
13:57:54 [anne]
it returns tokens to what?
13:58:01 [anne]
hmm
13:58:26 [zcorpan_]
aha
13:59:29 [anne]
also note my earlier remark about it being unclear what the empty string role identifier is
13:59:34 [anne]
or does
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14:04:03 [zcorpan_]
anne: fixed the algorithm. added a note about the empty role identifier
14:05:42 [anne]
hmm
14:07:05 [anne]
i would say "unless the role identifier is presentation or the empty string"
14:07:38 [anne]
that also prevents people from defining the empty string and space characters as valid role values in practice
14:07:52 [anne]
(well, space characters as already prevented)
14:09:05 [zcorpan_]
UAs should still pass along the entire value when they don't recognize any tokens
14:09:58 [zcorpan_]
(using the "xml-roles" object attribute in some APIs)
14:11:28 [anne]
yeah...
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14:37:17 [anne]
zcorpan_, I believe ref, registrationmark and template will become superglobal attributes too
14:47:27 [zcorpan_]
anne: ok
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15:00:22 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: why does "presentation" need to be special cased?
15:00:58 [aaronlev]
it's in the part of the code that builds the accessible tree
15:01:11 [anne]
what does "presentation" do?
15:01:29 [aaronlev]
UAs must expose the entire object to the AT using accessibility API specific methods, unless the object is strictly for presentation.
15:01:30 [aaronlev]
An object is strictly for presentation if any of the role identifiers in the role attribute is "presentation", and the object is not focusable. In other words, the role of presentation overrides all other roles to indicate an object as no semantic or accessible importance, unless it is focusable.
15:02:16 [zcorpan_]
that doesn't quite fit in the current draft, since there will only be one role identifier
15:02:27 [anne]
<div role="wairole:checkbox wairole:presentation"> would do what in Firefox currently?
15:02:46 [aaronlev]
anne: right now our code to deal with multiple roles is broken
15:03:02 [aaronlev]
but presentation is special, it means this thing has no semantic value
15:03:16 [anne]
how do ATs implement it?
15:03:21 [aaronlev]
it''s just easier to ignore it in the multiple role case, or make it override everything else
15:03:32 [anne]
(i don't think multiple roles should be implemented, see proposal on HTML list)
15:03:34 [aaronlev]
anne: they don't have to implement it, because we don't expose that object to them at all
15:03:45 [anne]
<table role=presentation> helps how?
15:03:55 [anne]
I'm not sure this role makes sense
15:04:13 [aaronlev]
anne: you put that on a layout able
15:04:16 [aaronlev]
on a layout table
15:04:26 [aaronlev]
so the AT just sees the table cell content
15:04:32 [anne]
but ATs don't support it?
15:04:40 [anne]
it seems to encourage presentational markup
15:04:44 [anne]
bah
15:05:13 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: does "presentation" override implicit roles?
15:05:26 [aaronlev]
anne: AT's supports it, automatically, because of how we expose things
15:05:35 [aaronlev]
lets say you make a checkbox with an <img> child
15:05:43 [aaronlev]
for the checkbox
15:05:52 [aaronlev]
what matters is the role="checkbox" parent
15:06:06 [aaronlev]
the child is only for building the appearance
15:06:32 [aaronlev]
in terms of using it for table
15:06:41 [aaronlev]
the reality of the web today is people use <table> for layout
15:06:51 [zcorpan_]
whether <img> is focusable or not depends on platform conventions
15:06:59 [aaronlev]
specificing role="presentation" in firefox makes it so the AT just sees the content and doesn't deal with it as a data table
15:07:20 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: is it focusable in opera?
15:07:34 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: no
15:07:50 [aaronlev]
is it focusable on small devices or something?
15:08:11 [zcorpan_]
could be
15:08:14 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: if it is focusable it needs to be able to fire focus events, otherwise it breaks fundamental a11y
15:08:15 [anne]
on some, yes, iirc
15:08:26 [aaronlev]
which in that case it needs an accessible object
15:08:52 [anne]
most elements are actually focusable on some way so you can navigate through them by keyboard in Opera
15:09:00 [aaronlev]
firefox says if something is focusable it is not really for presentation, it's something you can interact with
15:09:01 [anne]
although not strictly focusable in the DOM/CSS sense of the word
15:09:26 [aaronlev]
anne: i never understood that well
15:10:19 [anne]
it's called "pre-focus"/"hilite" for lack of a better term iirc
15:10:35 [aaronlev]
is a dom event fired?
15:10:47 [zcorpan_]
i guess it's equivalent to caret browsing in firefox
15:10:51 [anne]
could be, dunno
15:11:07 [anne]
I wouldn't say equivalent
15:11:41 [aaronlev]
anne: if there is no event fired, how would a fire vox type extension (opere vox?) read the current item
15:11:53 [aaronlev]
anyway, you would need to fire focus to the AT for those
15:12:03 [aaronlev]
so it needs an msaa/atk/ua object
15:12:40 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: if it is like caret browsing, then you could just fire an event that the caret moved to it
15:12:58 [aaronlev]
in which case you can do that on a non-presentational ancestor of the text, which contains that text
15:13:38 [zcorpan_]
anyway, "presentation" seems to have to integrate with the rest of the processing that i haven't defined yet
15:13:53 [anne]
aaronlev, doesn't that simply depend on how you integrate with the AT?
15:14:12 [anne]
aaronlev, seems a bit weird to me to do everything through the DOM
15:14:14 [aaronlev]
anne: i meant what opera might do, based on what i know, not what the spec should say
15:14:25 [aaronlev]
anne: fine
15:14:38 [anne]
overloading the DOM with AT specific semantics seems wrong to me
15:14:52 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: there's a special rule for dealing with presentatiuon on <table>, in that it automatically means the <td>'s etc. that are descendnats are also presentation-only
15:15:02 [aaronlev]
anne: k
15:15:23 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: interesting
15:15:27 [anne]
also, why isn't "presentation" implied for childnodes of a widget?
15:16:10 [anne]
anyway, it doesn't seem that "presentation" warrants support for multiple role values
15:16:26 [anne]
as authors simply shouldn't specify both presentation and checkbox (for instance) on the same element
15:17:06 [zcorpan_]
anne: agree
15:17:33 [zcorpan_]
if authors say role="checkbox presentation" then it's ok to say that it represents a checkbox, imho
15:18:37 [zcorpan_]
checking for presentation first seems to just complicate processing
15:19:52 [zcorpan_]
you might also want to actually fall back to "presentation" for some custom new role
15:19:53 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: so role="presentation checkbox" would be different from "checkbox presentation"
15:19:58 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yes
15:20:08 [aaronlev]
ok
15:20:23 [aaronlev]
that makes the spec simpler but processing more compkciated
15:20:43 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: oh
15:20:49 [zcorpan_]
how so?
15:21:15 [anne]
aaronlev, note that the new specification also addresses your fallback concern which is currently addressed by loading RDF...
15:22:23 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: it's very fast to do a substring check for " presentation " or " wairole:presentation "
15:22:47 [aaronlev]
cheaper than calling the method i'll be writing to ask for the first wai role
15:23:00 [aaronlev]
but i guess, you're right, it's not really more complicated
15:24:01 [anne]
substring check would go wrong too
15:24:20 [zcorpan_]
why does "presentation" need better perf than e.g. "checkbox"? :)
15:24:21 [anne]
your substring check for instance doesn't cover \n \f \t characters
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15:24:36 [anne]
it also doesn't cover presentation being the last or first value
15:24:39 [anne]
etc.
15:24:49 [anne]
plus what zcorpan_ said
15:25:10 [aaronlev]
anne: i was writing in pseudo code, i figure you'd handle the deatils
15:26:05 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: at the moment i was able to keep the decision of whether to create an accessible separate from determining the computed wai role
15:26:15 [aaronlev]
go ahead and make the spec how you want, i'll deal with it
15:26:57 [anne]
aaronlev, ok, fair enough, but it seems that if you need code to obtain tokens it isn't that much worse than doing both that and substring matching :)
15:29:54 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: what happens when an element has role=presentation but is focusable?
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15:34:25 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: the fact that it's focusable overrides the presentation role
15:34:31 [aaronlev]
and it is no longer presentational
15:36:37 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: but is the xml-roles object attribute used in that case?
15:37:04 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yes
15:37:10 [zcorpan_]
ok
15:40:36 [zcorpan_]
updated the spec
15:41:19 [aaronlev]
i kind of like the suggestion for role="aol-buddylist listbox"
15:42:04 [anne]
good :)
15:42:26 [zcorpan_]
:)
15:43:35 [aaronlev]
doesn't mean everyone will, but we have a good chance
15:45:02 [anne]
i don't think "everyone" will ever agree on something
15:45:38 [anne]
although it would be nice
15:47:01 [aaronlev]
i mean we have a good chance for consensus
15:47:09 [aaronlev]
you guys really make me use exact language :)
15:47:32 [aaronlev]
"However, unlike the xml prefix, the wairole prefix has to be declared before it is used according to this specification"
15:47:35 [aaronlev]
why did we add that?
15:47:48 [zcorpan_]
because we want to ban the wairole: prefix in text/html :)
15:48:04 [aaronlev]
k
15:48:10 [aaronlev]
although the processing rules allow for it
15:48:15 [zcorpan_]
yes
15:48:26 [aaronlev]
Is it work saying something about that?
15:48:28 [aaronlev]
It's easy to miss
15:48:37 [anne]
the processing rules don't allow for the other thing that _is_ allowed
15:48:52 [anne]
i think the authoring requirements should be made simpler by removing all the namespace cruft
15:49:21 [aaronlev]
anne: the processing rules don't allow for what other thing?
15:49:29 [anne]
foobar:role
15:49:37 [anne]
foobar:value
15:50:14 [hsivonen]
(I can't remember whether it was here or on-list)
15:50:21 [zcorpan_]
anne: if "foobar:role" is a supported custom role, then it will be used :)
15:50:41 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: right now i have to very carefully read the processing and authoring rules to see the differences between the strictness of one and looseness of the other
15:50:47 [anne]
zcorpan_, sure, but it won't be bound to a namespace
15:50:49 [aaronlev]
it would be nice if that was called out so everyone was clear on it
15:51:06 [anne]
I would suggest to just read the processing requirements
15:51:29 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: i'm not saying it makes sense, i'm just trying to report my understanding of how PF's plan to use RDF would have to work
15:51:52 [aaronlev]
we haven't spent enough time in PFWG talking about how RDF would be used for custom roles
15:51:58 [aaronlev]
because we're trying to get1.0 out, and we've pushed that off
15:52:08 [aaronlev]
plus i've been telling them rdf sucks for this.
15:52:11 [aaronlev]
but that said ...
15:52:33 [anne]
my suggestion would be to merge the role values into the Simon proposal and publish that instead
15:52:40 [anne]
and dump the XHTML role module
15:52:55 [aaronlev]
i think it's a resonable idea for authors to be able to define new roles, with new semantic properties with types of boolean, string or idref, etc.
15:53:06 [aaronlev]
and to doefine what gets spoken, if anything, when those properties change
15:53:16 [aaronlev]
not necessarily spoken
15:53:22 [aaronlev]
but presented
15:53:39 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: what do you want the spec to say? and where? (re differences in authoring/ua reqs)
15:53:40 [aaronlev]
so for example, if aol-away="false" becomes "True"
15:53:41 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: mmkay. I'd expect an app (screen reader or otherwise) be responsible for knowing its own UI strings and content to be responsible for supplying its strings without indirection
15:54:12 [aaronlev]
but it's impossible for ATs to keep up with the web
15:54:19 [aaronlev]
or with software in general
15:54:22 [aaronlev]
that's always been a big problem
15:54:31 [aaronlev]
people want to define new stuff and how the AT should deal with it
15:54:59 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: how about a summary table
15:55:13 [hsivonen]
so they want effectively to program the AT from within content?
15:55:24 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: with what's allowed or not allowed for authors or processing
15:56:05 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: not program the AT, but supply it with what it needs to know
15:56:12 [aaronlev]
it's not script
15:57:15 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: i'm not sure why any differences need to be called out explicitly. e.g. html5 has lots of differences between ua and authoring reqs; listing them all would likely double the size of the spec
15:57:18 [hsivonen]
in any case, so far the localization approach of the Web has been that the server supplies a representation with burned-in strings in one language
15:57:24 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: if you're an author, you don't care about ua reqs
15:57:31 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: ok
15:57:37 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: and if you're an implementor, you don't care about authoring reqs
15:57:37 [hsivonen]
not that the UA assembles stuff from string bundles
15:58:09 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: i don't think pfwg thought about localization, but from what they're saying, it would be needed
15:58:27 [aaronlev]
i can go back to them and ask, but we definitely pushed this issue off in the interests of getting the basics finished
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15:59:00 [anne]
why would you localize role values and not the <body> element?
15:59:10 [aaronlev]
anne: <body> is well-known
15:59:13 [aaronlev]
if we can write this spec so it allows for role customization later, but not specify completely yet, that would be helpful
15:59:21 [anne]
there's lots of things here that don't make sense to me
15:59:23 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: it would be weird to start abstracting localization from the a11y stuff considering that for HTML in general, we want to push it out of UA scope to the server side (per current Design Principles draft)
16:00:28 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: I'd expect client "support" for aol-buddy list to include the chrome strings required for speaking about buddy lists
16:00:59 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: the idea is to break accessibility from the chains of the AT bottleneck
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16:01:14 [aaronlev]
tiny companies that cannot hope to keep up with current authoring
16:01:44 [aaronlev]
that's the problem we're trying to solve, i don't know how it will be solved but i believe it is technically possible to solve it
16:02:01 [aaronlev]
and if we could push it off until there is time to discuss it more deeply that'd be great
16:02:30 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: if I make a Finnish submit button in HTML, I burn the UI string in the content instead of sending a string bundle to the UA so it could assemble the pieces
16:03:03 [hsivonen]
why wouldn't the screen readable strings be similarly part of the content in the language of the content?
16:03:13 [aaronlev]
ah
16:03:35 [aaronlev]
right, the problem with that was, how to associate the localized property name with the semantic one
16:03:41 [hsivonen]
doing string bundle-based UI assembly on the client is some serious scope creep
16:04:01 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: no one wnts to pass the entire string budle over to the at
16:04:25 [aaronlev]
i'm sure we can come up with something better
16:05:20 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: but if the custom roles are only opaque identifiers to the AT, why bother with that abstraction at all?
16:05:46 [aaronlev]
because you may also want to write scripts that utilize the semantic value
16:05:48 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: shouldn't "semantic" identifiers be removed then and the user experience be driven directly with custom UI strings?
16:05:56 [hsivonen]
hmm.
16:06:01 [aaronlev]
there is no sharp line between what the AT's will handle now and what they will evolve to handle
16:06:16 [aaronlev]
some ATs will evolve to handle busy=false|true and do something special for that
16:06:20 [aaronlev]
otherws will use the fallback
16:06:25 [aaronlev]
<div role="aol-buddy option">My friend</div>
16:06:36 [hsivonen]
ok
16:06:40 [aaronlev]
how should is specify that he is busy or not, and how that changes
16:07:02 [hsivonen]
but to me, aol-buddy makes no sense without at least one voice browsing configuration doing something useful with it natively
16:07:05 [aaronlev]
in a way that the author can define the fallback localization for the AT
16:07:28 [aaronlev]
it is alreayd usefuly to say "My friend" "busy off" or "busy on"
16:08:33 [anne]
It's still not clear to me how this is going to work. Content producers have shown in the last decade or something that this type of afterthought accessibility doesn't work for them (alt=, headers=, axis=, longdesc=) and not only are we adding a bunch of stuff on top of that (role=, aria-*=), no you're proposing to make it even more complicated
16:08:58 [anne]
It seems to me that this problem is much better solved at the side where there are only 1-10 players
16:09:22 [aaronlev]
well there is open source
16:09:52 [aaronlev]
how do you define how many players there are in that case
16:10:20 [aaronlev]
anne: maybe there is a simpler solution
16:10:37 [aaronlev]
but i don't think giving up on the problem i explained is the only reasonable answer
16:11:05 [aaronlev]
also, headers|axis suck
16:11:09 [aaronlev]
longdesc is not that useful
16:11:13 [aaronlev]
and alt is used all the time
16:11:29 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: are there known implementations of axis?
16:11:38 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: not that i've found
16:12:36 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: for the purpose of counting players, I'd count version control repos
16:12:57 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: so the Mozilla cvs repo counts as one "player" for anne's purpose
16:13:14 [aaronlev]
there are a lot more than one player involved in mozilla
16:13:52 [zcorpan_]
mozilla has multiple version control repos? :)
16:14:06 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: there are still fewer client code bases to which features need to be introduced than there are content-side code bases
16:14:22 [aaronlev]
that's for sure
16:14:51 [aaronlev]
i thouight the point is, this is possible scope creep, and we also don't have a clean way to do it yet so no one will use it
16:15:00 [aaronlev]
even if we implement it
16:15:21 [aaronlev]
so we should wait until we get the bases covered, but keep ourselves open to it for later
16:16:37 [hsivonen]
anyway, for relatively special-purpose things like buddy availability states, I'd try to get rid of one layer of abstraction and use UI strings in the language of the page without the UA knowing the semantics--just speaking content-provided strings
16:17:40 [aaronlev]
that was one proposal, but people want semantics
16:17:51 [aaronlev]
it's certainly a lot simpler
16:18:42 [aaronlev]
we could offer that for now and the promised land of something better when we get to xbl
16:18:57 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: semantics are pretty useless unless there are clients that use the "semantic" strings as something smarted than opaque hash table keys
16:19:10 [aaronlev]
who says there won't be
16:19:37 [aaronlev]
ATs will soon be offering the capability of end user scrpting for web apps, just as they do for desktop apps now
16:20:04 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: authoring for future clients and scripting support for today's clients tends to poison the future
16:20:25 [aaronlev]
i don't follow, but i'd like to continue the conversation later
16:20:31 [aaronlev]
i have to go pick up my daughter
16:20:39 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: cya
16:20:44 [aaronlev]
later
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16:24:19 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: bye
16:25:14 [hsivonen]
anyway, for logs: what I meant is this
16:25:25 [hsivonen]
consider WF2
16:25:38 [hsivonen]
there's Opera 9 and there's scripts for IE
16:26:14 [hsivonen]
Opera 9 is a shipping browser that can be used to test that the scripts for IE are future-proof with a native implementation
16:26:34 [hsivonen]
that is, that the scripts properly go out of the way when the native impl. is there
16:28:19 [hsivonen]
on the other hand, if there's no native implementation to test with, well-intentioned people will do things that prevent native implementation from ever being introduced because the emulation scripts would conflict with the native impls
16:29:02 [hsivonen]
like when in 2000 O'Reilly was serving XHTML on the Web and Mozilla was unable to introduce XML parsing for text/html XHTML content, because there was already a broken legacy out there
16:29:56 [hsivonen]
(O'Reilly's "XHTML" was ill-formed)
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17:17:23 [anne]
krijnh, any chance you can fix the regular expression used for autolinking URIs in the archives?
17:17:39 [anne]
krijnh, you need a pattern for <http://, specifically, see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070930
17:19:28 [anne]
hsivonen, http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2007%2F09%2Ftmb-overview
17:19:38 [anne]
hsivonen, scope= is allowed at those points :)
17:20:17 [hsivonen]
anne: wasn't when I last reviewed the schema ;-)
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17:20:42 [hsivonen]
anne: anyway, I'll fix that soonish
17:21:41 [anne]
no problem; I validated my frontpage as HTML4 and then using HTML5 override mode and it suddenly stopped validating
17:22:48 [anne]
(just to play with validator.nu, I normally don't validate my webpages as I'm pretty sure they're always valid or are invalid because I'm doing so on purpose (testing WF2 features or something))
17:23:29 [zcorpan_]
anne: stop being so elitist ;)
17:24:09 [anne]
is fact telling elitist now? :p
17:27:18 [krijnh]
anne: unhide and fix $content = preg_replace("#((https?|ftp):[^'\">\\s]+)#", '<a href="\1">\1</a>', $content); will ya ;)
17:29:11 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: hi
17:29:21 [anne]
krijnh, ouch
17:29:45 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: i guess i'd like to delay some of this conversation until i find a proposal that i myself even like
17:29:47 [hsivonen]
aroben: hi
17:29:49 [krijnh]
I wonder where I copied that one from
17:29:55 [hsivonen]
doh
17:29:59 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: hi
17:30:09 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: ok
17:30:12 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: because i think something reasonable may exist
17:30:14 [aroben]
hi hsivonen
17:30:29 [aaronlev]
and i should probably write something up to explain how it would work and why it's not bad
17:30:33 [aaronlev]
so people can critique that
17:30:53 [aaronlev]
but i agree that the current ideas are too complicated to fly
17:31:33 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: did you see my point about speculative future compat without nothing to test against? (in the log earlier)
17:31:54 [aaronlev]
i didn't understand it completely, sorry for being dense
17:32:23 [aaronlev]
i think for we have enough future compat in there
17:32:29 [anne]
krijnh, I suppose you can simply add one before that one that replaces all occurances of <http://">http:// ...> with http:// ...
17:32:37 [aaronlev]
because we're ignoring everything but wairole
17:33:09 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: if people start publishing using a new syntax before there are consumers with native support, it is easy to accidentally build a legacy that prevents native support from ever emerging
17:33:48 [aaronlev]
yes
17:33:57 [aaronlev]
we have that prolbem today with screen readers
17:34:01 [aaronlev]
but not on the web
17:34:09 [aaronlev]
JAWS provides a scripting language
17:34:13 [aaronlev]
for desktop apps
17:34:24 [aaronlev]
and sometimes what happens, is someone develops a JAWS script that works well enough
17:34:29 [aaronlev]
and the app is never truly made accessible
17:34:39 [aaronlev]
but, on the whole it empowers the users, who get to share scripts
17:34:39 [krijnh]
anne: no time now, sorry
17:34:55 [aaronlev]
and it's unrealistic for every app to have native jaws support that works well enough
17:35:05 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: is it because the script is useful enough or because changing the app would break the script?
17:35:51 [aaronlev]
i would have to say usuall because the script is useful enough, but it's possible that changeing the app would break the script
17:36:02 [aaronlev]
however, apps that change and get a new version break the scripts all the time
17:36:14 [aaronlev]
athat's just reality
17:36:24 [aaronlev]
thes script-breaking changes aren't usually because someone made it more accessible
17:36:30 [aaronlev]
but because the app just changed
17:37:25 [aaronlev]
i believe that on the whole, the end user wins when they're empowered to fix things themselves, even with the risks you mention
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17:38:02 [krijnh]
anne: I can :)
17:41:07 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: ok. the Web parallel is more like greasemonkey
17:41:41 [hsivonen]
aaronlev: not the someone deployed ill-formed "XHTML" content as text/html and thus prevented browsers from ever parsing text/html as XML
17:41:47 [aaronlev]
hsivonen: right, although the at script shouldn't modify the dom imo
17:41:50 [hsivonen]
s/the/that/
17:46:01 [aaronlev]
right, like greasemonkey but readonly
17:46:14 [aaronlev]
doesn't modify the dom
17:46:25 [aaronlev]
although possibly pushes input
17:46:30 [aaronlev]
or sets focus
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19:34:51 [anne]
lol
19:35:15 [anne]
http://www.w3.org/mid/47014AF2.3040205@aptest.com
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20:11:14 [aaronlev]
anne: no doubt, someone please make it stop :)
20:12:50 [anne]
"opaque string battles"
20:13:19 [anne]
oh, and politics
20:13:44 [anne]
W3C seems mostly about politics these days, not about doing any actual technical stuff
20:13:55 [anne]
that's for your free time
20:14:53 [aaronlev]
yep
20:20:55 [aaronlev]
anne: that doc lists both xhtml2 wg and html wg
20:21:19 [anne]
yeah, and PFWG
20:21:39 [anne]
and the RDFa guys, hurray
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11:48:24 [zcorpan_]
aha. now we're getting somewhere
11:48:39 [zcorpan_]
found an msaa debugging tool
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12:00:38 [zcorpan_]
though it doesn't say e.g. whether a checkbox is checked or not. just that it has focus and is focusable
12:01:26 [zcorpan_]
but i guess it's enough to be able to write testcases for role="" at least
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15:18:55 [Steve_f]
aaronlev: hi, do you know if the new jaws 9.0 beta has any improvements in ARIA support?
15:23:58 [Steve_f]
zcorpan: have you tried inspect32.exe for MSAA?
15:25:10 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: yes, today actually
15:26:16 [aaronlev]
Steve_f: i'm under nda, but you can't read that as meaning anything
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15:28:57 [Steve_f]
ok thanks, there was a rumor that JAWS 9 was going to provide better AJAX support, but form initial testing there appears to be only minor improvements in dynamic content updates
15:30:09 [Steve_f]
zcorpan: saw this from earlier "though it doesn't say e.g. whether a checkbox is checked or not", inspect32 provides state info as well
15:33:19 [Steve_f]
if checked -" State: focused,checked,focusable", if unchecked "State: focused,focusable"
15:34:03 [anne]
can you automate testing in any way?
15:36:03 [Steve_f]
there are a few tools provided by microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3755582A-A707-460A-BF21-1373316E13F0&displaylang=en
15:36:47 [anne]
maybe if those debug tools have some API you can write a simple script to run it through a testsuite
15:36:51 [anne]
hmm
15:38:09 [Steve_f]
also RAVEN may be of use http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/raven
15:43:47 [aaronlev]
you guys need testing tools for MSAA or IA2?
15:44:30 [anne]
some way to test whether browsers implement the new aria proposal correctly
15:44:45 [anne]
ideally it can be automated so large series of tests don't take a lot of time
15:52:30 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: oh, i didn't get "checked" for a regular checked checkbox in firefox
15:53:11 [aaronlev]
anne: i have an interest in that as well
15:53:18 [zcorpan_]
unless i made a mistake somewhere, i'll look again
15:53:18 [aaronlev]
we should coordinate on that
15:54:21 [Steve_f]
latest version of adesigner http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/adesigner has accessibility information (MSAA/IA2) inspection functions. (it is pretty cool)
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15:56:46 [Steve_f]
zcorpan: just checked worked for me
15:57:14 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: oh now i see checked, it just didn't update until i moved focus back and forth
15:57:21 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: thanks
16:05:13 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: yep, this whole discussion got the xhtml2 political thing started up again
16:05:34 [aaronlev]
gotta love it
16:10:17 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: yeah
16:11:25 [zcorpan_]
the only remark from the xhtml2 wg was that they owned the namespace. no other comments on the proposal or otherwise
16:12:07 [zcorpan_]
(unless i missed where some other message came from)
16:12:20 [zcorpan_]
i find it a bit amusing
16:12:22 [dbaron]
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16:12:38 [aaronlev]
well we need to finally kill that issue
16:12:45 [gavin_]
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16:12:47 [anne]
shane didn't know about the XHTML namespace document change btw
16:13:07 [aaronlev]
now that the pot is stirred up again
16:13:15 [aaronlev]
drive it home
16:13:25 [aaronlev]
sorry, too many idioms :)
16:13:42 [anne]
i agree that would be nice, but that would require some action from higher up
16:13:47 [laplink]
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16:13:50 [anne]
i haven't seen too much of that so far
16:14:33 [zcorpan_]
i honestly don't really care
16:15:17 [anne]
it would just clear up some mess and make things for more clear for people not directly involved
16:15:43 [anne]
it indeed doesn't really matter
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17:00:38 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: is there something useful in aDesigner that isn't in inspect32.exe (for my purposes)?
17:08:25 [Sander]
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17:09:10 [Steve_f]
yesi think, you can view the elements in a html document as a tree and see the role/states etc
17:11:20 [zcorpan_]
ah, that's nice
17:13:24 [Steve_f]
zcorpan: whats your email, i can send you a screen shot if you want?
17:15:44 [zcorpan_]
it's simonp@opera.com
17:16:15 [Steve_f]
ok will send it
17:16:22 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: thanks
17:21:20 [Steve_f]
zcorpan: sent
17:23:27 [zcorpan_]
Steve_f: looks nice. trying to download the app now
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17:27:44 [Steve_f]
good luck
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17:38:25 [zcorpan_]
well, i'm not having much luck downloading the thing.
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18:27:05 [Hixie]
i hope everyone who is going to the f2f has booked their room
18:27:16 [Hixie]
deadline is tomorrow
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18:29:25 [anne]
i got about five e-mails about that :)
18:34:56 [Lionheart]
Thanks for the warning.
18:40:31 [hober]
If I go, I'll crash at my folks' place. :)
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18:43:42 [Lionheart]
Lucky you
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20:54:19 [gsnedders]
If I could get somewhere to stay, I'd go.
20:55:01 [anne]
gsnedders, maybe someone can share a room with you?
20:55:02 [Hixie]
ooo, movement
20:55:08 [anne]
heh
20:55:48 [gsnedders]
anne: that's just about the only option… and try to get my mother to agree to that (i.e., it is almost impossible)
20:55:55 [Hixie]
heh
20:56:16 [gsnedders]
My Dad cares so much less
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20:57:04 [anne]
hmm, it's inlined on the mailing list
20:57:53 [gsnedders]
to quote what I wrote in an essay earlier: "Je pense qu'elle est trop protectrice. Mon père n'est jamais inquiet de moi".
20:59:00 [gsnedders]
anne: and then there's the issue of finding someone silly enough to share a room with me :)
20:59:36 [anne]
I found a person silly enough to share one with me :p
20:59:58 [gsnedders]
(I legally can't stay on in a room on my own, FWIW)
21:00:31 [anne]
Hmm, being under 21 has never been a real issue for me in the US
21:00:50 [gsnedders]
anne: being under 18 has for me
21:00:55 [anne]
well, with the exception of consuming alcohol in certain places
21:01:01 [anne]
gsnedders, ah ok
21:01:18 [gsnedders]
anne: remember I'm idiotically young :)
21:02:00 [mjs_]
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21:02:49 [wilhelm]
What's on the agenda for the WG meeting?
21:03:10 [Hixie]
the plan is mostly to have it be an unconference
21:03:17 [Hixie]
so the agenda is "whatever you want to talk about"
21:03:21 [Hixie]
basically
21:04:02 [gsnedders]
ah well, see y'all on Thursday (I'm away tomorrow at a Rush concert)
21:05:12 [Hixie]
later
21:16:00 [hsivonen]
the U.S. seriously overdoes the 21 thing. When I was 18 they wouldn't let me even taste (and spit) wine. When I was 24, I had to show my passport in order to stand in a room where alcohol was served even though I wasn't drinking.
21:18:25 [Hixie]
yes, it screws me over regularly, because i never have any ID on me
21:18:34 [Hixie]
so if my friends happen to walk into a bar, i get left at the door
21:18:49 [Hixie]
even though i have no intention of drinking a single drop that they sell
21:19:07 [Hixie]
whether alcoholic, carbonated, caffeinated, or corn-syrupated.
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05:57:53 [ShawnRisk]
I am trying to use backbase drag-and-drop example in the explorer just this isn't working at all. If I use other examples that use drag-and-drop they work. Any ideas why?
06:01:55 [ShawnRisk]
anyone here?
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06:46:07 [ShawnRisk]
seems dead in here
06:47:58 [karl]
ShawnRisk: example from where ?
06:48:08 [ShawnRisk]
let me get the url
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06:48:30 [karl]
note that it is not a channel for learning HTML :) in case of.
06:50:00 [ShawnRisk]
I know that
06:50:43 [ShawnRisk]
this is in the Backbase Explorer: Backbase_Enterprise_Ajax_Community_Edition/client_4_0_2_examples/explorer/indexChameleon.html#|examples/explorer.xml on the local desktop
06:51:08 [ShawnRisk]
http://devnet.backbase.com/client_4_0_1_examples/explorer/indexChameleon.html#|examples/dragAndDrop.xml
06:51:18 [ShawnRisk]
look there
06:51:23 [karl]
ShawnRisk: How does it relate to the development of HTML 5 specification. :)
06:51:53 [ShawnRisk]
it doesn't
06:52:14 [karl]
then out of scope for this channel
06:52:20 [ShawnRisk]
I just looked at LOGS here, and people were talking about backbase so I thought it was the right place to talk about here
06:52:58 [karl]
nope
06:53:14 [ShawnRisk]
where is?
06:54:24 [karl]
http://devnet.backbase.com/#dev/forum/home.xml[1] right where from you are coming from
06:55:27 [ShawnRisk]
ok, but no irc?
06:55:55 [karl]
ShawnRisk: we are not backbase. Ask them.
06:56:01 [ShawnRisk]
okay
06:56:09 [ShawnRisk]
how is html5 going?
06:56:58 [karl]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
07:00:09 [ShawnRisk]
502 proxy error
07:06:08 [ShawnRisk]
I am out
07:06:13 [ShawnRisk]
talk later
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07:08:30 [olivier]
dammit, this cvs server is a pain
07:08:58 [olivier]
(502 proxy fixed)
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13:28:45 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: i need to write up all little bits of special case ARIA logic we have so they can be incorporated or rejected
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14:41:47 [DanC]
hmm... the public-html list seems to have slowed down a bit... maybe that makes it a little easier to catch up
14:42:51 [DanC]
hmm... the ARIA discussion is interesting
14:49:48 [zcorpan_]
DanC: i might make an introduction at some point. or someone else can suggest an introduction that i can include :)
14:50:01 [zcorpan_]
i made some tests: http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/
14:50:15 [DanC]
ah. excellent. that was going to be my 2nd wish ;-)
14:50:56 [zcorpan_]
:)
14:51:52 [DanC]
so the test hypothesis is that the role value is visible to the MS accessiblity API?
14:52:02 [DanC]
s/the/a/
14:52:08 [zcorpan_]
yes
14:53:42 [zcorpan_]
please let me know about any debuggers for other platforms
14:54:09 [DanC]
yeah; here's hoping. I don't have anything to offer just now.
14:54:19 [zcorpan_]
ok
14:55:40 [zcorpan_]
nope
14:57:57 [anne2]
there has been some debate about owning namespaces though...
14:59:47 [DanC]
namespaces are evidently the boogy-man. questions like "Does ARIA require the use of namespaces, which are not available in text/html?" seems odd, to me.
15:00:09 [DanC]
seems to me that what's available in text/html is negotiable
15:00:42 [anne]
we're sort of constrained to legacy parsers by the charter iirc, but I suppose that's true
15:01:03 [DanC]
legacy parsers don't prohibit namespaces, AFAIK
15:01:29 [DanC]
I suppose the real issue is that deployed stuff doesn't propagate namespaces do the DOM
15:01:34 [Zeros]
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15:01:38 [DanC]
s/do the/to the/
15:01:55 [zcorpan_]
and existing content relies on that to be so
15:01:58 [zcorpan_]
aiui
15:02:13 [anne]
anyway, not the thing I was referring to
15:02:23 [DanC]
ok, I guess I can adjust the way I read. The mime type is only tangentially relevant.
15:03:55 [DanC]
oh... maybe it's more relevant than that... do namespaces show up in the DOM if application/xhtml+xml is used?
15:04:24 [zcorpan_]
ah... yes
15:04:37 [zcorpan_]
the DOM always has namespaces
15:04:54 [zcorpan_]
although namespaceURI might be null
15:05:28 [anne]
what I was referring to is "which group is responsible for http://www...xhtml"
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15:06:41 [DanC]
do you mean /1999/xhtml in particular, anne? I edited it a while ago to reflect the fact that about 4 or 5 W3C WGs are chartered to work on it. Whee!
15:07:04 [anne]
yeah
15:08:03 [anne]
i don't think it matters per se, but it seems kind of weird for all kinds of groups to change that namespace
15:08:55 [DanC]
definitely weird. much more straightforward if the chartering process makes things more modular. but it didn't, so here we are.
15:09:35 [anne]
I don't follow, what do you mean?
15:10:38 [DanC]
the chartering process could have said that WG-27 owns the /1999/xhtml namespace, and any other WG that wants to make changes to it asks WG-27 for those changes.
15:11:00 [anne]
ah right, yes, that would've been much better
15:13:56 [DanC]
making javascript apps accessible is worth its own WG, to me. I wonder if it's worth a re-org.
15:14:03 [DanC]
prolly not
15:14:31 [zcorpan_]
naw
15:15:41 [zcorpan_]
starting another wg will just eat time and not really give any benefit over what we're doing now afaict
15:15:47 [DanC]
I have a hard time figuring out the schedule... the WAI PF ARIA specs seem to involve changes to HTML, but the schedules I see have ARIA finishing before either HTML 5 or XHTML 2. That doesn't compute, to me.
15:17:38 [zcorpan_]
all of aria can be implemented before all of html5 is implemented
15:17:43 [anne]
i'd think the PFWG would just be folded into the HTMLWG
15:17:51 [DanC]
for example, http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/role/001.htm starts with <!DOCTYPE html> , which makes perfect sense, technically, but W3C ratification of it is tied to HTML 5, which has a 3 year schedule-of-record (with lots of HTML 5 proponents repeatedly referring to it as a 5 or 10 year project)
15:18:16 [zcorpan_]
i could remove the doctype altogether
15:18:22 [zcorpan_]
doesn't make a difference really
15:18:48 [zcorpan_]
or have an html4 doctype
15:19:24 [DanC]
an html4 doctype is inconsistent with new attributes.
15:19:41 [anne]
i'd expect ARIA to stay in CR until HTML5 is finished
15:19:42 [zcorpan_]
i could add more tests with different doctypes to make sure browsers don't implement anything stupid
15:20:00 [anne]
or simply be folded in at some point
15:20:19 [zcorpan_]
yeah
15:20:24 [DanC]
having ARIA stay in CR until HTML5 is finished makes sense; I wonder if the WAI PF WG would go for that.
15:21:08 [anne]
same will happen with XMLHttpRequest, XMLHttpRequest level 2, XBL, afaict
15:21:48 [DanC]
I'm more and more convinced that the 2008 Q2 last call milestone for HTML 5 should be taken seriously.
15:22:10 [anne]
get the WG to publish something :)
15:22:21 [zcorpan_]
s/get the WG to //
15:22:37 [anne]
heh
15:22:42 [DanC]
why does it help for me personally to publish something, zcorpan_ ?
15:22:48 [anne]
DanC, btw, would it be possible for the Forms TF to get some webspace somewhere, or maybe a wiki?
15:23:01 [zcorpan_]
DanC: dunno
15:23:07 [anne]
both might be good
15:23:23 [DanC]
of course it's possible, anne
15:23:58 [anne]
so how do I get that arranged?
15:25:06 [DanC]
if I were you, I'd just use some webspace that you already have write access to... maybe the ESW wiki. If that's not good enough, sysreq is the support request mechanism.
15:25:26 [DanC]
sysreq with copy to your team contact (Karl, in this case, I guess)
15:25:37 [DanC]
do you know what you want?
15:26:20 [anne]
CVS access somewhere on www.w3.org to check in the proposed charter
15:26:27 [anne]
hopefully a wiki on the same place
15:26:56 [anne]
plus maybe a homepage with pointers to the charter + wiki
15:27:00 [DanC]
CVS access to a wiki? that's an open research problem, AFAIK ;-)
15:27:45 [anne]
no, CVS access to /2007/10/forms-tf/ or something like that
15:27:59 [DanC]
some form asked me for the taskforce homepage and I told it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/
15:29:07 [DanC]
CVS access to /2007/10/forms-tf/ is the sort of thing sysreq does in a few hours/days
15:30:01 [DanC]
seriously, zcorpan_ ? how did that get past the pubrules checker? or is it in an example?
15:30:12 [anne]
examples
15:30:22 [anne]
it's a custom DOCTYPE, after all :)
15:30:23 [zcorpan_]
Valid XHTML 1.1 documents that wish to use this profile must use the following DOCTYPE declaration:
15:30:23 [zcorpan_]
<DOCTYPE ...
15:30:49 [zcorpan_]
2.1.1 XHTML
15:30:59 [DanC]
typos in examples give me the willies. I love the python doctest module.
15:31:05 [anne]
the list maintainer is Lachlan Hunt, maybe he can edit that page
15:31:24 [DanC]
we got pretty close to nirvana with the SPARQL specs: the examples there were all machine checked (including the protocol examples) at one point.
15:31:35 [zcorpan_]
i would just dump all mention of DTDs and doctypes in the states spec
15:35:13 [zcorpan_]
http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/doctypes/
15:36:41 [DanC]
speaking of publishing something, let's see... has mjs finished his editing pass on [HDP]?
15:37:26 [anne]
don't think so
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15:37:59 [Zeros]
I wonder how many pages use the <DOCTYPE element
15:38:32 [anne]
DanC, he said he would contact you about the edit of the XHTML namespace document
15:38:34 [zcorpan_]
Philip: has <doctype> hit your radar? :)
15:40:09 [zcorpan_]
http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=%3Cdoctype+lang%3Ahtml
15:40:43 [DanC]
yes, shane wrote to me offline... I dind't make the connection to the public-html discussion until now
15:41:01 [DanC]
shane probably assumed I keep up with public-html ;-0
15:42:19 [DanC]
I'm not happy about the redirect from http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml to http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/ . And it was a pain to edit that page cuz it's content negotiated. A simple page with headings, paragraphs, and lists, and it's content negotiated. sigh.
15:42:53 [anne]
I have raised that issue a few times
15:43:00 [anne]
It also happens for 1999/xlink
15:43:11 [DanC]
raised it where?
15:43:11 [anne]
Should be archived somewhere in www-archive or w3c-archive
15:43:22 [anne]
with sysreq
15:43:26 [anne]
iirc
15:43:45 [zcorpan_]
http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=htmlpublic+lang%3Ahtml -- this might be a problem; html5 says <!doctype htmlpublic "foo"> is quirky
15:44:23 [zcorpan_]
though the doctypes that came up in that search would have been quirky anyway
15:45:04 [anne]
on, it was webreq
15:45:13 [anne]
in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Jun/0011.html
15:45:28 [DanC]
I suppose sysreq sorta makes sense... when I reviewed logs, it seemed that one of the webmasters installed the redirect
15:45:52 [DanC]
the redirect is there because uris of the form /1999/xhtml/foo have been issued, I think
15:46:19 [anne]
fun
15:47:05 [DanC]
it takes special apache magic to give a 200 at both /1999/xhtml and /1999/xhtml/foo
15:47:21 [DanC]
I think we do it for /History.html though
15:47:38 [zcorpan_]
can't you have a file named "xhtml"?
15:47:39 [Philip]
zcorpan_: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/doctype says only one on my (rather small) radar
15:47:53 [zcorpan_]
Philip: ok
15:48:14 [DanC]
you can have a file named "xhtml" or a directory named "xhtml" but not both. (the servers run debian linux)
15:49:22 [anne]
makes sense
15:49:26 [anne]
i wonder what files are in there
15:49:26 [DanC]
that 2006 thread with Matthieu Fuzellier seems to die after you answered his "what exactly needs fixing?" question, anne . or was there more off-list?
15:50:15 [DanC]
~/w3ccvs/WWW/1999$ ls -l xhtml/Overview.*
15:50:15 [DanC]
-rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 2131 2007-06-14 17:16 xhtml/Overview.html
15:50:15 [DanC]
-rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 235 2007-02-15 17:32 xhtml/Overview.var
15:50:15 [DanC]
-rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 2211 2007-06-14 17:17 xhtml/Overview.xhtml
15:50:15 [DanC]
-rw-r--r-- 1 connolly dant 312 2007-02-15 17:32 xhtml/Overview.xsd
15:51:23 [DanC]
now I'm up to Richard's "So, there is serialization for html and then the xhtml modularization work . How is that coordinated?"
15:51:46 [DanC]
xhtml modularization got out of CR too soon, IMO.
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15:52:40 [anne]
DanC, it either died or he replied saying something similar to what you just outlined occured
15:58:09 [DanC]
I think the plan of record is that I chair a telcon at 1700Z tomorrow. But I'm also scheduled to attend a TAG telcon at that time. our telcon schedule nearly achieved a regular rhythm a little while ago, but it's flaking out a bit, again.
15:58:33 [DanC]
I'm inclined to move the telcon back to 1500Z... which would mean that I'm 58 minutes late with the agenda
15:59:06 [DanC]
I feel like I'm about 1/4th of the way preparing a worthwhile agenda after spending an hour or so catching up
16:00:10 [DanC]
I think I should (a) finish my agenda prep, but (b) cancel this week's telcon, and maybe (c) announce some IRC office hours tomorrow.
16:00:56 [DanC]
meanwhile, there's the question of whether to proposed to publish HDP even though mjs isn't clearly finishd with this pass
16:01:05 [anne]
I found http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/datatypes/ btw
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16:01:28 [DanC]
oh.. yeah, there are other files.
16:02:28 [DanC]
datatypes is the only subdirectory I can find
16:02:36 [anne]
me too
16:05:04 [DanC]
Sep 26 15:59:12 <mjs>DanC: at some point I'd suggest to ship it instead of waiting more
16:06:04 [DanC]
last edit is still 2007-09-14 09:44:18 :-/
16:13:57 [DanC]
mjs is remarkably patient and thorough in answering comments. That's laudable, in a way, but at some point, it's time to say "we've discussed that enough; time to move on"
16:18:46 [DanC]
at one point, mjs said he was going to add an accessibility principle. I see "3.4 Universal Access"; I'm not sure whether (a) mjs has something more in mind, nor (b) whether that's seen as sufficient by those who raised concerns earlier.
16:19:50 [DanC]
changelog doesn't seem to have a declaration of victory; I gather mjs has more in mind.
16:20:56 [DanC]
looks like mjs owes Gregory an answer
16:21:41 [DanC]
looks like mjs owes Gregory an answer specifically to the msg of 2007-09-14 09:44:18
16:21:50 [DanC]
phpht. msg of Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:11:06 -0400
16:21:53 [anne]
not particularly close as mjs said he would make the edits
16:22:11 [anne]
I don't believe he's done with that
16:22:16 [anne]
as I said before
16:22:31 [DanC]
any thoughts on whether to publish anyway?
16:22:44 [DanC]
I suspect finishing the accessibility discussion is kinda important. sigh.
16:22:48 [anne]
not really
16:25:59 [DanC]
"document character set ..." thread... oh no! I've had more than one lifetime's worth of discussion of that stuff.
16:26:14 [DanC]
but HTML 5 throws open the whole dang design space. sigh.
16:26:47 [anne]
pointer?
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16:27:15 [DanC]
you entered the thread at Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:57:23 +0200
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16:27:36 [DanC]
X-Archived-At: http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tyd89xqc64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com
16:28:05 [anne]
oh, that
16:28:45 [anne]
I shouldn't have replied in retrospect
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16:49:30 [tH]
hmm, no list mail since yesterday, wonder if something's up with my host :/
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16:55:34 [zcorpan_]
tH: likely
16:56:12 [tH]
i always know something's wrong when i'm getting less stock spam than usual
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18:21:14 [anne]
I'm not sure whether target.com is already changed or not, but it seems that it now duplicates information for products in the alt= text.
18:23:05 [anne]
the eweek article about is funny: "
18:23:05 [anne]
There are many applications that are designed to make Web sites accessible to the blind, but they rely on sites using standard programming. This typically includes small text tags next to images, so the software can speak the words aloud."
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00:16:05 [karl]
Authors stylesheet…
00:16:05 [karl]
<link rel="stylesheet template" href="/style/authoring.css" type="text/css" /> that would be used by an authoring tool to give colours to sections for editing, but would be ignored by the browser in a browsing context.
00:16:38 [karl]
just thinking
00:16:44 [karl]
I see some issues
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16:01:16 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: hi
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16:37:43 [zcorpan_]
removed html:role, added <svg:* role="" aria-foo="">. removed some notes
16:40:35 [zcorpan_]
now i need to update the test cases...
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16:59:13 [zcorpan_]
updated the test cases at http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/role/
16:59:33 [zcorpan_]
...and http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/states/
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17:12:16 [aaronlev]
zcorpan_: why would svg need aria- for aria?
17:12:25 [aaronlev]
when it has namespaces?
17:12:40 [aaronlev]
are we proposing only supporting aria- and not aaa: ?
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17:13:25 [anne]
yeah
17:14:41 [Chris]
yeah.
17:14:59 [aaronlev]
so we're trying to kill the need for namespaces in aria at all
17:15:09 [anne]
yes
17:15:15 [aaronlev]
fine, but, doesn't that need to be in the svg spec?
17:15:25 [anne]
it's a standalone proposal
17:15:34 [Chris]
I still hold to my moderate-strength objection - it seems goofy to prefix one attribute with aria- and not another, and it seems like that limits the applicability (because the language can't use "role" then).
17:16:08 [anne]
Chris, my argument about that before was that role= denotes the widget where aria-* denotes the state
17:16:25 [anne]
but I don't really care
17:16:38 [aaronlev]
i don't care that much but time is short for me on this release
17:16:38 [zcorpan_]
aaronlev: just as much as it needs to be in the html spec
17:17:09 [aaronlev]
i think i need to see that the svg group is on board with it before i code it up, but it's cool with me
17:17:32 [zcorpan_]
the proposal came from the svg group unless i'm mistaken
17:17:38 [aaronlev]
k
17:17:42 [aaronlev]
i need to go for a minute
17:17:45 [aaronlev]
but i'll catch up on it later
17:17:47 [zcorpan_]
ok
17:18:08 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: is the proposal coming from there a matter of public record somewhere?
17:19:03 [anne]
there's some discussion on www-svg
17:20:13 [zcorpan_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2007Oct/0013.html
17:20:33 [hsivonen]
so is the time ripe for tackling xlink:href? ;-)
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17:21:25 [zcorpan_]
if they prefer role="" over html:role="" ... :)
17:21:42 [anne]
it has to happen at some point
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17:22:21 [zcorpan_]
though xlink:href is interoperable in svg... no?
17:22:51 [anne]
yeah
17:22:56 [zcorpan_]
but i guess UAs can support both href and xlink:href for some time
17:23:26 [anne]
I would imagine a solution where you can specify both href="" and xlink:href="" where the latter would take precedence
17:23:51 [hsivonen]
IIRC back in April, xlink:href didn't quite work in WebKit
17:23:55 [anne]
that is, if backwards compat is desired, otherwise href= would prolly take precedence
17:24:36 [anne]
hmm, TAG discussed how people should write HTML
17:25:07 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: the CC badge in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/thesis/html5-conformance-checker.xhtml is not clickable in WebKit
17:25:36 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: ok
17:26:39 [hsivonen]
anne: TagSoupIntegration-54?
17:27:03 [anne]
yeah
17:27:20 [anne]
it's not really clear to me what they're doing though, but I suppose it has some purpose
17:27:33 [hsivonen]
eek. XSD mentioned
17:27:43 [anne]
for instance
17:29:02 [zcorpan_]
pointer?
17:29:30 [anne]
www-tag "minutes"
17:29:52 [anne]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Oct/0023.html
17:30:02 [zcorpan_]
just found it
17:30:23 [hsivonen]
what Raman says about scripting and well-defined has been fixed as of HTML5 hasn't it?
17:30:54 [anne]
yeah
17:30:57 [anne]
maybe he means it's ugly
17:31:15 [hsivonen]
it can be ugly but well-defined
17:31:30 [Chris]
(sorry in a meeting) - I just meant if we have an un-prefixed attribute directly in HTML5, then we own the semantics of that attribute - so ARIA can't change it later, and we might add things to it for other HTML uses.
17:32:54 [anne]
Chris, yeah, I suppose that's true, although in practice I would expect the WG to evaluate such additions based on existing content and implementations
17:33:37 [anne]
Chris, any updates on the review btw?
17:33:42 [anne]
(of HTML5)
17:34:16 [Chris]
not yet. Sorry. I've asked my management for more support.
18:09:19 [anne]
lol @ schepers
18:10:09 [schepers]
why does everyone laugh at me?
18:11:07 [zcorpan_]
hi schepers
18:11:15 [schepers]
hi, Simon
18:12:08 [zcorpan_]
schepers: the plan is to have the proposal implemented in firefox 3 and opera 9.5
18:12:26 [schepers]
reading backroll
18:14:14 [schepers]
ok, sounds interesting, I'll get it discussed next tuesday in SVG
18:14:34 [zcorpan_]
ok, great
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18:14:54 [schepers]
it would help if we knew how this relates to the XHTML2 Role spec
18:15:18 [zcorpan_]
i don't understand that spec
18:15:24 [zcorpan_]
so i don't really know
18:15:33 [schepers]
have you talked with the editors?
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18:16:18 [schepers]
you've at least communicated with Richard Schwerdtfeger, it seems
18:16:37 [zcorpan_]
yeah
18:17:03 [zcorpan_]
i've sent comments about it, or perhaps that was to wai-xtech
18:17:28 [schepers]
it would be courteous to give them a heads-up
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18:17:47 [schepers]
hi, dbaron
18:18:01 [zcorpan_]
yes, the xhtml2 wg was cc-ed
18:18:23 [schepers]
zcorpan_, and it would make it much easier to sell in SVG if they approved
18:19:10 [zcorpan_]
schepers: we asked for comments, but haven't got any from the xhtml2 wg
18:19:34 [schepers]
well, except richard s. it seems
18:19:38 [zcorpan_]
it seems they discussed it at their last telecon but i couldn't extract any actual feedback from the minutes
18:19:45 [zcorpan_]
oh yep
18:19:57 [schepers]
boy, I hope he has a good irc nick...
18:20:11 [schepers]
I thought schepers was unweildy...
18:23:01 [anne]
shepazu, because you made a silly remark, imo
18:23:44 [shepazu]
which of many possible silly remarks was that?
18:24:03 [anne]
good obversation :) ; your last e-mail to www-svg
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18:24:39 [shepazu]
re: navigation?
18:25:14 [shepazu]
you don't like the idea of shared focus navigation between languages?
18:25:23 [shepazu]
now, that seems silly
18:25:37 [shepazu]
how can I convince you not to break the web?
18:25:50 [shepazu]
think of the children, anne!
18:27:03 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, I've emailed the XHTML2 guys, hope we can all come together on this
18:27:29 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: ok, i hope so too
18:27:52 [shepazu]
I'd love to see it solved and implemented quickly and easily
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19:28:46 [anne]
shepazu, the idea that HTML WG should somehow base it on newer builds that didn't consider legacy seems wrong
19:28:53 [anne]
s/ WG//
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19:29:02 [anne]
s/builds/models/
19:30:14 [shepazu]
it doesn't seem like focus navigation was consistently implemented well before anyway
19:31:05 [shepazu]
and certainly not in a way that was easy to author, and which takes into account the positioning of focusable elements in anything other than document order
19:35:10 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, I see that SVG was mentioned in your @role document before... it would be very helpful to let the SVG WG know of any work that's being done in the HTML WG that impacts (or especially directly mentions) SVG
19:36:25 [shepazu]
anne, and why do you think that the way navigation is specified *doesn't* take legacy into account?
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00:51:44 [karl]
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20071003#l-234
00:51:59 [karl]
hmm if we could drop the doctype alltogether. That would be gem.
00:53:30 [karl]
just having <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="fr"> would be much more fun
00:53:37 [Hixie]
i think html5 gets as close as we can get to that for text/html
00:54:04 [Hixie]
(<!DOCTYPE HTML><html lang="fr">)
00:54:06 [karl]
Hixie: yep. But I wish that it would be even simpler ;)
00:54:10 [Hixie]
yeah, me too
00:54:32 [Hixie]
early drafts had it just as <!DOCTYPE>, but that didn't work in all browsers :-(
00:54:35 [Hixie]
oh well
00:54:51 [karl]
life is fun :) means not perfect :p
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02:19:25 [karl]
RG: Rocco Georgi, PavingWays - Frost Ajax Library
02:19:31 [karl]
RG: Working on Ajax library for constrained browsers
02:19:46 [karl]
RG: Ajax works in many mobile browsers but JavaScript/DOM implementations vary. Existing libraries don't work in many cases
02:19:46 [karl]
RG: Needed a library for work on our own mobile web applications
02:19:46 [karl]
RG: Approach is cross browser Ajax for mobile web apps. Support the weakest browser that is capable of Ajax.
02:19:46 [karl]
RG: Keep it small (<3k at the moment)
02:19:58 [karl]
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes
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03:44:40 [karl]
DC: I agree with what Jon said about One Web earlier
03:44:40 [karl]
... the biggest problem we are dealing with is Mashups
03:44:40 [karl]
... the browser did not anticipate mashups
03:44:40 [karl]
... which creates security problems
03:44:40 [karl]
... we need to get that broken browser security model fixed
03:44:41 [karl]
... browser makers have not been able to go forward without consensus
03:44:43 [karl]
... but the Google worker-pool solution is one exciting recent development in this area
03:44:45 [karl]
... but we have to wait for IE6 to die
03:44:47 [karl]
... on the other hand, in mobile, because of the shorter longevity of mobile devices, we have quicker turnaround on [getting newer browsers deployed on handsets]
03:44:50 [karl]
... [DC made statement that mashups are one of the most groundbreaking changes to come in many years]
03:44:52 [karl]
still in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/28-mobile-ajax-minutes
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08:41:31 [hsivonen]
anne: Is the access control stuff something that I should use right now in validator.nu response headers?
08:44:48 [anne]
it's something you could use right now
08:45:09 [anne]
I suppose it might be useful if you want to allow cross-site access to the results
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08:50:34 [hsivonen]
hrm. is dev.w3.org down again?
08:51:25 [anne]
if you want to grant everyone access simply put "Access-Control:allow <*>" in your response headers
08:51:54 [anne]
the spec has some examples
08:52:23 [hsivonen]
anne: ok. thanks
08:52:31 [anne]
see http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/
08:53:27 [hsivonen]
dev.w3.org isn't responding to me
08:55:13 [hsivonen]
does every GET on dev.w3.org hit CVS?
08:55:26 [hsivonen]
would be good to have the docs cached somewhere
08:55:37 [anne]
no
08:55:46 [anne]
what I pointed to is a checked out version
08:55:56 [hsivonen]
ok
08:56:03 [hsivonen]
still not responding, though
08:56:15 [anne]
there's an older version on w3.org/tr/access-control/
08:56:28 [hsivonen]
ok
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10:07:42 [olivier]
hsivonen, anne, I restarted the damn server
10:07:55 [olivier]
it's been a daily pain in our... server farm
10:08:03 [olivier]
sorry about it
10:09:25 [hsivonen]
olivier: thanks
10:10:34 [hsivonen]
anne: did I understand correctly that if I want to allow cross-domain XHR POST I must first respond to a GET to the POST URI with a 2xx response?
10:11:02 [hsivonen]
anne: and specify both
10:11:11 [hsivonen]
Access-Control: allow <*>
10:11:12 [hsivonen]
and
10:11:16 [hsivonen]
Allow: POST
10:12:30 [hsivonen]
anne: would 204 No Content work?
10:14:36 [hsivonen]
anne: should I respond with 204 No Content, Allow: POST *only* if there's the If-Method-Allowed request header?
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10:16:04 [anne]
hsivonen, the Method-Check header is just there so you can make informed decisions about what to allow
10:16:24 [anne]
hsivonen, it's not a requirement that you do something with it, just like it's not a requirement that you don't do anything with Referer or Referer-Root
10:16:36 [anne]
(the header has been renamed from If-Method-Allowed, see dev.w3.org version)
10:17:14 [anne]
hsivonen, response code doesn't have any significance now, I'm not sure it should
10:17:29 [anne]
(so either 200 or 204 would be fine, iow)
10:17:35 [mjs]
why is Method-Check a header and not a method?
10:17:55 [hsivonen]
anne: would you recommend always responding with Allow: POST if I allow POST at the URI?
10:18:12 [hsivonen]
and completely disregarding Method-Check
10:18:30 [hsivonen]
I'm not completely clear on what the expected choreography is
10:18:33 [anne]
mjs, I think OPTIONS was not picked because it would be harder to author against
10:18:34 [mjs]
(it's hard to think of any other header where on a GET the result is never meant to be to actually retrieve the entity)
10:19:10 [anne]
custom methods are not very well supported in general
10:19:12 [mjs]
are authors expected to do a method check by hand?
10:19:49 [anne]
as I said, it's an informational header, there are no author requirements involved
10:20:00 [anne]
the response header, however, is mandatory (Allow)
10:20:41 [mjs]
what I'm asking is, would this header (or whatever) be something that authors should manually do in their content, or something that user agents do for them?
10:21:25 [anne]
Method-Check is a request header, Allow is a response header; the user agent verifies that Allow specifies something that they send out in Method-Check
10:21:41 [hsivonen]
anne: so if I responded with 204 plus Allow to Method-Check and with 400 to requests without Method-Check, I'd break clients?
10:21:52 [anne]
I would recommend reading http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#access1
10:21:52 [mjs]
that still doesn't answer my question
10:21:59 [mjs]
is the user agent expected to add it or the author?
10:22:10 [mjs]
if the user agent adds it, then "easier to author against" is not a relevant consideration
10:22:24 [anne]
you don't understand
10:22:31 [mjs]
clearly
10:22:34 [anne]
the author needs to deal with the request
10:22:36 [hsivonen]
anne: I take MUST as meaning that without it I go 400
10:22:40 [mjs]
this is why I am asking questions
10:22:42 [anne]
if the request uses a weird HTTP method that makes things harder
10:22:54 [mjs]
how does the author need to deal with the request?
10:22:57 [anne]
if the request is a simple GET request with an informational header that makes things easier
10:23:14 [mjs]
do you mean on the server side?
10:23:14 [anne]
mjs, the author replies with an Allow header that specifies the allowed methods
10:23:24 [anne]
Allow: POST, PUT, DELETE
10:23:38 [anne]
mjs, yes
10:23:41 [hsivonen]
anne: will XHR2 UAs do the Method-Check check silently without the script author having to do it?
10:23:43 [mjs]
ok, I was unclear on who "the author" referred to here
10:24:03 [mjs]
is support for custom methods truly so bad on the server side that it's better to smuggle a method in a request header?
10:24:07 [anne]
hsivonen, yes
10:24:11 [mjs]
hsivonen: from the spec it sounds like yes
10:24:23 [mjs]
so the only relevant authoring considerations are server side
10:24:28 [anne]
mjs, it's not smoggling a method in a request header
10:24:40 [anne]
mjs, it's asking whether a certain method can be used
10:24:47 [mjs]
anne: is a GET with Method-Check on it expected to return the resource?
10:24:55 [mjs]
like a GET normally would when it succeeds?
10:25:04 [anne]
no, it's a security check
10:25:09 [mjs]
so it's not really a GET
10:25:17 [mjs]
it's a TELLMEWHATMETHODSAREALLOWED
10:25:22 [hsivonen]
anne: shouldn't it use a SECURITYCHECK method then?
10:25:24 [anne]
it's really OPTIONS, indeed
10:25:43 [anne]
but see above about author complexity
10:25:59 [hsivonen]
anne: so are you expecting server-side devs to be too incompetent to respond to OPTIONS?
10:26:15 [mjs]
is OPTIONS defined enough to be useful?
10:26:59 [anne]
hsivonen, that was the feedback Hixie's original proposal got, iirc
10:27:13 [hsivonen]
anne: mmkay
10:27:42 [mjs]
seems to me like one big problem with OPTIONS is that the server may already be doing something for it, and that something is likely wrong
10:28:38 [hsivonen]
see. enterprisey non-LAMP stuff is needed after all. :-)
10:28:40 [mjs]
can a cgi script or similar see what method was used in the request?
10:29:23 [hsivonen]
mjs: yes. REQUEST_METHOD
10:29:30 [mjs]
so that's how you do it
10:29:39 [mjs]
seems simple enough
10:29:46 [anne]
the problem is that Apache bounces a xxx method not supported thingie before it even reaches the script
10:29:47 [mjs]
(unless the server blocks unknown methods or something)
10:30:20 [mjs]
I suddenly wonder about all the people who insisted that XHR has to support sending custom methods if they are unusable from the server side
10:30:36 [anne]
those are the people who write custom server software and all that
10:30:59 [anne]
it's quite easy to set up a simple server yourself
10:31:05 [anne]
collegue did it in a few lines of python
10:32:42 [hsivonen]
hmm. http://validator.nu/ already says Allow: GET, HEAD, POST, TRACE, OPTIONS when probed with OPTIONS
10:32:52 [hsivonen]
which looks about right
10:33:11 [mjs]
interesting
10:33:32 [anne]
(not if you don't want to allow POST)
10:33:59 [hsivonen]
anne: I override doPost in the servlet, which means I handle POST
10:34:30 [anne]
sorry, not if you don't want to allow cross-site POST
10:34:34 [anne]
is what I meant
10:34:53 [hsivonen]
anne: well, that might be a reason to do something other than vanilla OPTIONS
10:34:56 [anne]
(although I suppose that's already problematic with <form>)
10:35:08 [hsivonen]
anne: like OPTIONS plus header
10:35:40 [hsivonen]
let's see if mod_jk allows me to handle OPTIONS
10:39:22 [hsivonen]
yeah, I get to override OPTIONS handling with whatever I want
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10:45:51 [hsivonen]
anne: if you are concerned that OPTIONS might inadvertently Allow stuff, you could specify a new response header. that way, clients would know that the server recognized Method-Check
10:46:40 [hsivonen]
anne: for example, Allow: GET, HEAD, POST, TRACE, OPTIONS<CRLF>Access-Control-Allow: POST
10:47:42 [hsivonen]
(aside: it sucks that servlets dispatch on method first. it seems to me HTTP dispatch should be done on URI first and method second)
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10:50:55 [anne]
hsivonen, you think it's worth changing?
10:51:16 [anne]
hsivonen, if so, you need to raise it on public-appformats and convince Firefox to change their implementation
10:51:35 [anne]
I'm afraid :(
10:53:18 [hsivonen]
anne: hmm. OPTIONS certainly seems Right from an ivory-tower perspective. but perhaps the real Web is a two-verb Web. whether this needs stirring is a hard call
10:54:30 [hsivonen]
anne: do Firefox nightlies already support Method-Check with the new name?
10:56:55 [anne]
Firefox nightlies only implement the response part of the security GET request
10:57:21 [anne]
Firefox 3 will also inform the server by sending out Method-Check
10:57:30 [anne]
(and Referer-Root)
10:59:08 [hsivonen]
anne: do you mean the Method-Check stuff isn't implemented yet, if it isn't in the nightlies but will be in Firefox 3?
11:00:00 [anne]
well, Allow is checked and the security GET request is made, it's just that nightlies don't send out the Method-Check header that indicates the desired method header
11:00:11 [hsivonen]
anne: does the server need to read the value of Method-Check at all? Isn't it enough to just check presence of the header and respond with Allow for whatever it is you allow?
11:00:14 [anne]
so depending on what you mean with "Method-Stuff"...
11:00:56 [hsivonen]
now I'm confused
11:01:20 [hsivonen]
am I supposed to know that a particular GET is a security GET even though it has no special labeling header?
11:01:41 [hsivonen]
how do I tell apart security GETs and usual GETs then?
11:02:27 [anne]
in Firefox 3, not sure
11:02:36 [anne]
euh, Firefox nightlies
11:02:57 [anne]
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=397879
11:05:58 [anne]
hsivonen, oh, the bug you're seeing on my weblog (was it you?) in Firefox is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=327765
11:06:03 [anne]
(with commenting)
11:06:11 [anne]
(at least, I think that's the bug)
11:06:38 [hsivonen]
anne: thanks
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12:25:40 [anne]
thanks hsivonen!
12:31:58 [hsivonen]
anne: I hope my comment is useful and doesn't turn into HTTP verb bikeshedding.
12:32:44 [anne]
there's a risk, indeed
12:33:41 [zcorpan_]
which comment?
12:34:16 [anne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007Oct/0024.html
12:34:40 [zcorpan_]
ah
12:35:16 [hsivonen]
anne: but in any case, I think the spec needs to do some more to walk Web app implementor through the process
12:38:36 [anne]
hsivonen, for the non-GET case?
12:39:24 [hsivonen]
anne: yes
12:40:47 [anne]
it's not really clear which spec owns the domain of access requests which is why it's prolly a bit vague
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16:23:34 [Hixie]
anne: the Method-Check request is sent, and then the reply to that is checked for Access-Control PIs and headers, right?
16:23:52 [Hixie]
anne: so an entity body _is_ desired, no?
16:24:44 [Hixie]
the reason not to use OPTIONS is that it's not cacheable
16:26:57 [Hixie]
DanC: yt? (topic: informing you of sponsorships)
16:27:30 [DanC]
hi. mail to public-html would be better
16:28:01 [DanC]
I figured IRC was enough last time cuz it went into minutes of a meeting that got sent to public-html
16:28:19 [DanC]
but if you like you can just tell me here and I'll put it on the meeting page.
16:28:26 [Hixie]
yeah will send mail eventually, just wanted to let you know first
16:29:23 [Hixie]
anyway, google will be sponsoring Joshue O Connor, Ben 'Cerbera' Millard, and James Graham (specifically we're paying for flights and hotel)
16:30:29 [Hixie]
they were selected on the basis of picking people who otherwise couldn't attend, who had done productive work in the group, as judged by myself on the advice of various other contributors
16:31:02 [DanC]
nifty
16:40:09 [Lionheart]
Great
16:41:12 [anne]
Hixie, right, for XML responses that is indeed true
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16:43:42 [DanC]
crikey... huge list of observer requests in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html
16:44:24 [anne]
they can just join any of the small sub groups, no?
16:44:30 [anne]
depending on how much place we have I suppose
16:45:20 [DanC]
the data is pretty noisy; some people I consider WG participants are registered as observers and vice versa; I wonder if it matters
16:46:03 [anne]
no reading e-mail :p
16:48:39 [Hixie]
indeed
16:50:53 [DanC]
50 registrants altogether
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17:01:58 [DanC]
if I want to parse http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html with javascript, do I need greasemonkey? or can I use a bookmarklet somehow?
17:02:43 [DanC]
most of my scripting habits are based on python... I'm new to javascript
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17:04:09 [anne]
either should work
17:05:01 [anne]
I would imagine greasemonkey (or userjs in Opera) to be easier to write unless people have developed tools for writing bookmarklets easier (likely) as they are single-line
17:06:53 [Hixie]
bookmarklets don't have to be single line
17:07:14 [Hixie]
it's just that newlines are written as the three character sequence "%0A" instead of using U+000A :-P
17:07:28 [Hixie]
(but you can use the data URI kitchen to get around it)
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12:49:22 [anne]
So where's the proposal for <switch> and <case>? http://www.redcanary.ca/view/top-programming
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17:46:29 [jgraham]
html5lib 0.10 (python) is now all packaged up and available for download
18:55:03 [anne]
cool
19:02:19 [anne]
jgraham, did you make a changelog as well?
19:06:13 [zcorpan_]
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19:21:26 [anne]
also, didn't markp fix http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=17 jgraham?
19:37:21 [zcorpan_]
haha, copyright issues. i've been playing a game to see how long i could ignore copyrights for my stuff
19:37:29 [zcorpan_]
i guess it's about time
19:38:32 [zcorpan_]
or patent policy
19:40:41 [zcorpan_]
hmm, is it possible to move a local svn repo to somewhere online so people can get diffs?
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19:47:03 [anne]
zcorpan_, I'm not really sure what the big problem is; Opera signed the PP, you agreed to it; you e-mailed the proposal to a WG Opera is a member of...
19:49:30 [zcorpan_]
right
19:51:13 [anne]
what he wrote seems like a lot of fluffy text without substance
19:51:21 [anne]
which is annoying as he said he would like to help speed things up
19:52:25 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: hi
20:00:14 [anne]
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2007/10/changing_horses.html is interesting
20:05:07 [jgraham]
anne: I lost track of all the changes so it would be inaccurate. I will make a blog.whatwg.org post about the release at some point (maybe tomorrow) though
20:06:00 [jgraham]
talking about the fetures
20:06:08 [jgraham]
s/fetures/features/
20:40:09 [shepazu]
anne, did you even read my email?
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20:43:19 [shepazu]
that "fluffy text" pointed out at least 2 incompatibilities to the original Role spec, and pointed out why it might be a bad idea to use chameleon namespaces to do what he was proposing, and explained why it was a bad idea not to cc the groups who own the specs he's touching
20:43:36 [shepazu]
which seems to be lost on you, I suppose
20:44:21 [shepazu]
which is annoying
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20:48:19 [anne]
dunno, that and more has already been admitted on the public-html list and other places involved in the role= discussion
20:49:19 [shepazu]
I wasn't following that
20:50:36 [shepazu]
I am trying to help it move along, obviously, or I wouldn't be trying to reconcile his spec to the Role spec, which is the only way SVG will be able to include it
20:50:59 [shepazu]
or is that too fluffy for you?
20:51:33 [mjs]
see, this is why it would be better to have an approach to add-on accessibility markup than using the role attribute
20:51:41 [mjs]
it would avoid the need to debate issues of spec purity
20:51:49 [shepazu]
give me a break
20:51:55 [shepazu]
it's not spec purity
20:52:09 [anne]
it is
20:52:13 [mjs]
XHTML2 is a matter of purely theoretical concern
20:52:30 [mjs]
accessibility for web apps built out of div soup is a pragmatic real-world concern
20:52:43 [mjs]
I think it might be too late to avoid mixing the two though
20:52:47 [shepazu]
please, the Role spec is only peripherally related to XHTML2
20:53:11 [shepazu]
it has no inherent dependancies on language
20:53:43 [anne]
s/XHTML2/The XHTML2 WG/, if you wish
20:53:58 [mjs]
didn't your email about it refer to it as the "XHTML2 Role Attribute Module"?
20:54:07 [shepazu]
the reason to have it as its own spec is so that X/HTML and SVG can use it without having to modify both languages if that spec changes
20:54:22 [shepazu]
because that's the WG that wrote
20:54:24 [shepazu]
it
20:54:52 [shepazu]
and the label serves to distinguish between the 2 specs
20:55:16 [shepazu]
(simon's and the one by the xhtml2 group)
20:55:17 [anne]
also, I'm not sure why you mention chameleon namespaces, they have nothing to do with this
20:55:35 [mjs]
yes, and zcorpan is trying to pare down the excessive amounts of theoretical purity in it
20:56:00 [shepazu]
talk about theoretical purity, these arguments are full of it
20:56:19 [shepazu]
"It's from the XHTML2 WG, it must be bad!"
20:56:21 [mjs]
I do agree that in general it would be nice to have a shared way to develop markup and API to be shared by multiple languages
20:56:28 [anne]
indeed, the whole point is to simplify the role module and also restrict it to usage of ARIA so that we don't get another <object>
20:57:30 [shepazu]
anne, chameleon ns are absolutely part of the problem
20:57:35 [anne]
nope
20:58:05 [shepazu]
and restricting its usefulness is your agenda, not necessarily the best idea
20:58:27 [anne]
based on history it certainly seems better than the alternative
20:58:28 [shepazu]
explain how they aren't... I've already explained how they are
20:58:34 [anne]
you haven't
20:58:51 [shepazu]
then you didn't read my email
20:59:50 [anne]
it's problematic if <a:b> and <x:b> are identical (where a and b are bound to different namespaces) it's not problematic that you can use id="" in both HTML and SVG
21:00:01 [shepazu]
what if, down the line, SVG decides to put interfaces on @role, and the HTML spec doesn't
21:00:40 [anne]
you'd coordinate stuff like that, but afaict the whole point of ARIA role= is to not have APIs
21:00:54 [mjs]
markup languages intended to be rendered for interactive display have a lot of things in common beyond general XML
21:01:07 [mjs]
for example, the desire for focus APIs, the class attribute, the style attribute, etc
21:01:15 [mjs]
it would be nice to have a real way to share those instead of ad-hoc
21:01:27 [mjs]
for instance, HTML5 classList is way awesome and would be great for SVG
21:01:33 [shepazu]
oh, "you'd coordinate"... because that always goes seamlessly
21:02:29 [mjs]
I'd agree that attributes in the null namespace on elements in different namespaces are not an instance of chameleon namespaces in the classic sense
21:02:55 [anne]
it does indeed seem better to not coordinate and have them work in completely different ways depending on what namespace the element you use it on is in
21:02:59 [mjs]
but it is annoying when such things are specced twice for different languages and the specs come out slightly different
21:03:06 [shepazu]
I'm all for pulling in some features from HTML5 into SVG, but it would be even easier if they were done independently
21:03:22 [anne]
great for the authors!
21:03:29 [anne]
(and implementors)
21:03:46 [anne]
might help spec writers in the short term
21:04:23 [shepazu]
I agree that it doesn't make sense that attributes on an element are not automatically in that element's ns
21:04:46 [anne]
hmm, i once thought that too, but I no longer agree with that sentiment
21:04:50 [shepazu]
that never made sense to me, and I suspect it's unintuitive in general
21:05:05 [shepazu]
isn't that what you just said?
21:05:12 [shepazu]
(effectively)
21:05:23 [mjs]
is anything about namespaces that *is* intuitive?
21:05:29 [anne]
shepazu, huh?
21:05:35 [anne]
mjs, good point
21:05:55 [shepazu]
good point? bon mot, at best
21:06:39 [shepazu]
if @foo works differently in <bar:a> and <baz:a>, it's adhering to that element's ns.... oh, wait
21:06:58 [mjs]
I'm saying that your criticism of attributes with no namespace prefix being in the null namespace instead of the element namespace seems ill-founded, but I think that point is pretty tangentially related to this discussion anyway
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21:07:09 [shepazu]
I think you mean that @foo should works differently in the context of <bar:a> and <bar:b>
21:07:30 [shepazu]
(which I think would be confusing)
21:07:45 [anne]
i think you're confused
21:08:11 [shepazu]
or you're not explaining your position well
21:08:11 [anne]
i made a sarcastic remark in reply to your 'oh, "you'd coordinate"... ..."
21:09:03 [shepazu]
I took you seriously, because it's no crazier than other things I've heard you say ;)
21:13:09 [mjs]
<span role="sarcasm">...
21:13:22 [mjs]
oh wait I forgot to declare my namespaces
21:14:11 [shepazu]
that's a serious question I brought up in the SVG WG, actually...
21:14:53 [mjs]
what is?
21:15:11 [shepazu]
what if an a blog author, who has little or no control over ns declarations in the document root, tries to use some inline SVG?
21:16:04 [anne]
<div><svg xmlns="..."> ...
21:16:07 [shepazu]
it should work okay if they do all the namespaces in the SVG itself (maybe), but what if they try a shortcut like <svg:circle/> with no root?
21:16:41 [mjs]
SVG elements can't really work outside an <svg> element
21:16:56 [mjs]
best practice would be to declare all relevant namespaces on the <svg> element
21:17:11 [mjs]
(that might include svg as default namespace plus xlink and maybe others I am forgetting)
21:17:44 [anne]
(SVG in HTML should not require any namespaces I think, btw)
21:18:06 [mjs]
so many things in SVG reference the root svg element that I don't think you can meaningfully define how to render <div><svg:circle .../></div> even with the right namespace declarations
21:19:21 [mjs]
anne: I thought about it a bit - you could treat <svg> in classic HTML syntax as declaring an implied SVG default namespace, but what do you do for attributes in the xlink namespace?
21:19:52 [shepazu]
I was wondering if maybe we could allow for a sort of virtual expansion, an implicit <svg> root... hadn't gone much beyond that inital question
21:20:20 [shepazu]
not sure if it would be significantly easier for authors or not
21:20:51 [shepazu]
it's implied in the HTML5 draft that that should be legal, so I thought we'd look into the idea
21:21:56 [shepazu]
mjs: you could also add xlink as a default ns
21:22:57 [shepazu]
it's a pity that XLink never really went further... as it is, SVG would do just as well with @a in the null NS
21:23:59 [mjs]
I'm not so fond of SVG's use of xlink:href, it seems kind of gratuitous and furthermore is not even compatible with the real XLink spec afaict
21:24:13 [mjs]
I think it would have been better to use href for links and src for embedding/inclusion
21:25:25 [zcorpan_]
it might make sense to introduce href/src when (if) svg would be allowed in text/html
21:25:31 [shepazu]
I don't know of any incompatibilities with xlink1.1 (not saying there aren't any), and while it was a good idea at the time, it didn't play out as expected
21:25:34 [mjs]
hi zcorpan_!
21:25:40 [zcorpan_]
hi mjs
21:25:41 [shepazu]
hi, zcorpan_
21:26:21 [zcorpan_]
hi shepazu
21:27:12 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, that wouldn't validate as is, and would lead to inconsistent content to do the same thing... but it could be reconsidered... I don't feel strongly about it, but I would like to make authors' lives easier
21:28:10 [shepazu]
the truth is, the way SVG uses XLink is not really compelling
21:28:18 [shepazu]
as far as I can see
21:28:47 [zcorpan_]
in particular it would mean that we don't need to do namespace lookup or make ugly hacks in the html parser
21:29:09 [anne]
mjs, I think at some point SVG needs to introduce href="" besides xlink:href=""
21:29:51 [shepazu]
I think the fear of namespaces is overblown... my *gf* understands them, and she barely does any markup or scripting at all
21:30:33 [shepazu]
mjs, you are technically on the SVG WG, if you're interested in these things, you could bring them up
21:30:56 [anne]
mjs, you can do that for the HTML variant I think
21:31:08 [shepazu]
HTML variant of what?
21:31:18 [anne]
well, SVG syntax in HTML
21:31:25 [shepazu]
excuse me?
21:31:44 [anne]
an idea that people have
21:31:59 [zcorpan_]
make svg work in text/html
21:32:09 [shepazu]
it clearly says in HTML5 that SVG is defined by the SVG spec, not by the HTML spec
21:32:33 [zcorpan_]
it would still be, even if it was made to work in text/html
21:32:36 [anne]
well, the syntax for SVG in HTML would have to be part of the HTML parser algorithm
21:32:50 [zcorpan_]
it's just the text/html parsing that would change
21:32:59 [shepazu]
oh is that all?
21:33:12 [anne]
did i suggest anything else?
21:33:39 [zcorpan_]
well, introducing a new attribute (href="") would make it simpler
21:33:49 [shepazu]
see, that's where it starts
21:34:11 [shepazu]
why does the HTML5 group think they need to control everything on the web?
21:34:26 [zcorpan_]
i don't think anything more is needed
21:34:52 [zcorpan_]
?
21:35:07 [shepazu]
I feel confident that if HTML started changing "just what is needed" about SVG, they would continue on from there
21:35:29 [zcorpan_]
ok
21:35:33 [shepazu]
I think that if you want to change anything about SVG, you should approach the SVG WG abot it first
21:35:43 [shepazu]
including the parsing
21:35:53 [zcorpan_]
sure
21:36:01 [shepazu]
because SVG is an XML syntax, not an HTML5 syntax
21:36:19 [Dashiva]
The amount of changes from approaching other working groups has been so encouraging, after all :)
21:36:52 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: that's not really relevant
21:37:03 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: parsing xml gives you a DOM
21:37:10 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: parsing text/html also gives you a DOM
21:37:10 [shepazu]
perhaps if they had been approached in a moderately polite manner, you might have had different results, Dashiva
21:37:41 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, I'm not saying we'd shut it down... I'm saying we'd want to be involved
21:37:47 [anne]
SVG is a DOM spec
21:38:03 [anne]
XML is just one way to get there
21:38:11 [anne]
you can already create SVG using APIs...
21:38:29 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: i didn't suggest otherwise :)
21:38:34 [anne]
I told this the CDF people ages ago: http://annevankesteren.nl/test/cdf/cdi/002.html
21:38:53 [anne]
(where ages is roughly two years, it seems)
21:39:07 [shepazu]
CDF hasn't been nearly as communicative to SVG as they might have been, I think
21:39:46 [shepazu]
even with some overlap in membership
21:39:52 [anne]
to be honest, it seems that most "CDF issues" are solved outside CDF
21:40:35 [shepazu]
that's part of what CDF should be doing... getting other specs to coordinate and change on their own
21:40:53 [shepazu]
and they have done that
21:41:04 [anne]
(I'm not sure how you arrive at your conclusions about the HTML5 group above.)
21:41:08 [anne]
(fwiw)
21:41:44 [shepazu]
perhaps you are simply too focused on HTML5, then, anne
21:43:00 [shepazu]
the HTML5 group has managed to alienate almost every other group that's approached it
21:43:24 [shepazu]
I think that's a serious failure of the WHATML WG
21:46:24 [anne]
I'm not sure what you're getting at, to be honest
21:46:50 [anne]
Although your suggestions to help improve things are welcome at various mailing lists, I'm sure
21:46:59 [shepazu]
to be honest, I think you're being disingenuous
21:51:49 [anne]
afaict the HTML WG hasn't made a single language decision yet, ask DanC
21:52:33 [shepazu]
decsions are being made, because the spec has a current state
21:52:35 [anne]
there have been some clashes html4all guys, but it seems that's going better nowadays
21:53:19 [shepazu]
regardless of whether that's the official W3C spec, it's serving as the basis for implementations
21:53:34 [shepazu]
which is introducing a strong bias
21:53:50 [anne]
well, it seems better that we implement that than something we made up ourselves if we want to help authors
21:54:15 [shepazu]
then don't pretend no decisions have been made, anne
21:54:17 [anne]
that was the whole point of the WHATWG, to clarify things among implementors because nobody else did it for us
21:54:36 [anne]
shepazu, the decisions that have been made are in the charter, which calls for backcompat
21:55:05 [shepazu]
anne, don't try your jive on me
21:55:37 [anne]
it's not a jive, it was tried first at the W3C but that proposal was turned down
21:56:10 [shepazu]
yeah, that was a mistake, I agree
21:56:38 [shepazu]
I was even there :(
21:57:05 [shepazu]
I don't think I was aware of all the implications at the time, which I regret
21:57:17 [anne]
I'm not sure if we could've made as much progress within the W3C in such a short time frame, but yeah...
21:57:34 [shepazu]
I think it was a sound technological decision, but a faulty market one
21:58:32 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: i'm not sure what to reply to your question about patent policy
21:58:54 [anne]
hmm, everyone's implementation of HTTP methods for XMLHttpRequest is annoying
21:59:31 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, that's why it's better done in w3c space... you wouldn't have to worry about patent issues
21:59:41 [shepazu]
that was my point
22:00:22 [zcorpan_]
ok
22:00:39 [anne]
hmm, it was submitted to public-html
22:00:53 [anne]
I think it should be clear that there are no patent issues here
22:01:33 [shepazu]
anne, would you have anticipated EOLAS?
22:02:06 [anne]
iirc EOLAS is a perfect example of something that the current patent policy does not prevent
22:03:14 [shepazu]
it's more important (and obvious) in the matter of <canvas>, but my point is that we aren't lawyers
22:03:56 [shepazu]
and MS won't implement something that isn't clear on PP
22:04:21 [shepazu]
for that matter, what's the copyright on WHATWG stuff?
22:04:25 [anne]
hence they're part of the HTML WG and following the discussion there
22:04:41 [anne]
which is where Simon made his proposal, etc.
22:04:53 [shepazu]
I didn't see any legal notices on his proposal
22:05:25 [anne]
legal notices aren't put on the thousands of "I want a <burger> tag" e-mails either
22:05:53 [anne]
legal notices are taken care of when you join the group
22:06:15 [shepazu]
no....
22:06:29 [shepazu]
if I don't submit something to the W3C, it's not covered
22:06:47 [anne]
i just said it was
22:07:04 [shepazu]
what was?
22:07:31 [shepazu]
not the current state of his proposal
22:07:36 [anne]
<anne> hmm, it was submitted to public-html
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22:08:06 [anne]
oh please
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02:12:24 [karl]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Oct/0020
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02:48:51 [karl]
http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/index.html
02:48:59 [karl]
Motivation
02:48:59 [karl]
The Lively Kernel places a special emphasis on treating web applications as real applications, as opposed to the document-oriented nature of most web applications today. In general, we want to put programming into web development, as opposed to the current weaving of HTML, XML and CSS documents that is also sometimes referred to as programming.
02:50:04 [karl]
In the Lively Kernel we attempt to do as much as possible using a single technology: JavaScript.
02:50:31 [karl]
A unique feature of the Lively Kernel is a graphics library called Morphic. Morphic is a user interface framework that supports composable graphical objects, along with the machinery required to display and animate these objects, handle user inputs, and manage underlying system resources such as displays, fonts and color maps.
02:52:04 [karl]
http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/index.html#supported
02:52:13 [karl]
Supported Web browsers
02:56:15 [karl]
Sun Labs Lively Kernel Tutorial
02:56:20 [karl]
http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/tutorial/index.htm
02:58:59 [karl]
It is working in my camino
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09:09:45 [karl]
http://dublincore.org/architecturewiki/DCXHTMLGuidelines/2007-07-27
09:10:10 [karl]
Where these conventions are used to represent a DC metadata description set in an X/HTML document, the value of the profile attribute of the X/HTML head element must include the URI of this X/HTML metadata profile `http://dublincore.org/documents/2007/07/27/dc-html/
09:10:33 [karl]
hmm I wonder if they have implementations using the profile attribute.
09:17:01 [karl]
http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%22head+profile%22+&btnG=Search
09:19:21 [karl]
mainly XFN microformats in template generation
09:25:30 [anne]
hsivonen, you also need to be able to change the color I think, some scenes in LotR for instance require black subtitles because it's just too light
09:25:38 [anne]
s/require/use/
09:39:53 [hsivonen]
anne: that's what the black outline is for
09:40:20 [hsivonen]
anne: the Finnish TV system has done fine through my whole literate life with one kind of color
09:43:57 [anne]
outline for the glyphs? seems more expensive than changing the color, but fine with me
09:44:11 [hsivonen]
anne: the outline is there always
09:44:28 [anne]
oh
09:44:37 [hsivonen]
anne: see the background window in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/Conan-ja-kotirouvat.jpg
09:45:26 [anne]
that works, thanks
09:45:52 [hsivonen]
http://www.juhaterho.fi/proverbiaalinen/pora/katapultti.jpg is better
09:46:39 [karl]
I wonder if it's working well with all scripts
09:48:15 [karl]
hmm here they did the opposite - http://www.loveasianfilm.com/images/onthemountainoftaihang_dvdstills02.jpg
09:48:27 [karl]
white outline around black character
09:50:02 [anne]
well yeah, lots of different subtitles can be found in the wild, ask Joe Clark
09:50:09 [karl]
aaaah and here white character and black outline
09:50:10 [karl]
http://img.verycd.com/posts/0601/post-416788-1136596259.jpg
09:50:13 [anne]
I believe the question is what's minimally needed from a subtitle system
09:50:25 [hsivonen]
if you ask Joe Clark, be sure not to call captions subtitles. :-)
09:50:32 [karl]
ahaha
09:52:48 [anne]
is there a specific difference? wikipedia doesn't really make one
09:53:44 [hsivonen]
anne: in non-UK English captions are for the deaf and subtitles are translations
09:54:00 [hsivonen]
anne: IIRC, wikipedia mentions this somewhere
09:54:15 [karl]
Captioning: Rendering of speech and other audible information in the written language of the audio. (See Gary Robson’s FAQ.) Usually closed: Captions are encoded or invisible and must be decoded or made visible. Some captions are open and can’t be turned off.
09:54:25 [karl]
Subtitling, rendering a translation of dialogue and certain onscreen elements in visible words. Not the same as captioning. Despite their seeming similarity, captioning and subtitling have very little in common.
09:54:33 [karl]
from http://joeclark.org/access/resources/understanding.html
09:55:15 [karl]
under captioning there is a series of examples
09:56:49 [karl]
in Japan, captions on DVD are called "Subtitles with comments"
09:57:33 [anne]
hmm, those definitions don't cover the case where you have an English movie where you can pick both English and English for the hearing impaired "subtitles"
09:57:53 [hsivonen]
anne: English for the hearing impaired == captions
09:58:00 [karl]
captions
09:58:11 [anne]
and what's the former?
09:58:17 [hsivonen]
anne: search Joe Clark's site for an opinion on the former :-)
09:58:19 [karl]
subtitles just the dialogs
09:58:31 [karl]
I just gave the link to the page
09:58:33 [hsivonen]
anne: the former is same-language subtitles
09:58:35 [anne]
well, the definition says a translation of the dialogs karl
09:58:43 [hsivonen]
(Joe doesn't appear to like those :-)
09:59:06 [karl]
English movie with English Subtitles
09:59:17 [karl]
or English movie with Captions Subtitles
09:59:22 [karl]
two possibilities
09:59:34 [hsivonen]
anne: English subtitles on English content are used when the viewer's English skills are bad but the viewer is not deaf
09:59:41 [karl]
another example of subtitles a bit specific would be Karaoke
09:59:57 [hsivonen]
anne: like TV5 broadcasts French movies with French subtitles in order to spread the language
10:00:07 [karl]
hsivonen: or the accent is very hard to understand ;)
10:00:30 [anne]
I appreciate same-language subtitles a lot
10:00:43 [karl]
for example a local scottish accent for an american
10:00:55 [anne]
they don't bother me with silly information about what music is playing on the background and I don't have too pay as much attention
10:01:04 [anne]
as when normally viewing the movie
10:05:40 [karl]
interesting post
10:05:47 [karl]
I work the other way around
10:06:48 [karl]
it is usually for me harder to speak/hear than read a new language.
10:08:41 [hsivonen]
does "read" mean reading lips in this context?
10:08:53 [hsivonen]
in Joe's blog post that is
10:09:22 [hsivonen]
ah. no
10:09:53 [hsivonen]
karl: I agree that reading is easier than listening when it comes to a new language
10:12:24 [anne]
"Actually, according to palsied, ossified subtitling idiom, that has to be I’LL BE BACK in capitals, because the subtitle renders visible words. And no period."
10:20:29 [hsivonen]
anne: I think his opinions are a bit biased by an English-language environment where almost all movies that non-deaf people experience are in English and the potential audience of English-reading deaf is in itself huge
10:22:02 [hsivonen]
unless I'm missing something significant going on in Finland, the deaf in Finland have to go with subtitles targeted at hearing Finnish readers when they watch TV or go to movies
10:23:10 [anne]
yeah, although Joe claims they are totally different mostly captions and subtitles seem reasonably the same
10:23:49 [anne]
although I suppose I've watched less English movies with subtitles/captions than him
10:25:34 [hsivonen]
I meant that he doesn't like it that those who have bad English listening comprehension get service (same-language subtitles) before the deaf (captions)
10:26:20 [hsivonen]
with small languages like Finnish, foreign content only gets translated (not described), as far as I can tell.
10:32:02 [hsivonen]
anne: what's the subtitle text like graphically on Dutch TV? is it outlineless?
10:35:46 [anne]
I think so, but now I'm not sure anymore
10:36:58 [anne]
seems like there's a small outline
10:37:31 [hsivonen]
ok
11:47:50 [Philip]
About audio description tracks, I think I've only ever seen one on TV, but that one had non-trivial mixing so the normal actors' voices and the narration (on top of the sound effects and background music) were both similar volumes
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11:55:25 [hsivonen]
Philip: I've seen a Flash sample of Coronation Street with audio descriptions. Is Coronation Street broadcast with closed audio descriptions?
11:59:06 [hsivonen]
hmm. RNIB uses Word files to communicate information on the Web...
12:02:32 [hsivonen]
it appears that audio descriptions are available on many TV channels in the UK, but the information available on the Web is geared towards end users and doesn't reveal implementation details
12:04:25 [hsivonen]
according to Wikipedia, the North American impl. is premixed
12:12:48 [Philip]
(Having multiple partially-redundant audio channels in the media file seems alright on TV and DVD since they have enough space for it, but I can't imagine it being very popular on the internet where you have to pay for the bandwidth)
12:17:31 [hsivonen]
Philip: I agree.
12:18:30 [hsivonen]
Philip: if it turns out that an embedded, *supplementary*, low-overhead Speex track isn't feasible, we should probably toss the problem to the content producer side and ask them to provide alternative files
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13:53:26 [krijnh]
anne: typo in your latest blog post: "Maybe a feature version" -> future
13:54:33 [anne]
hmm
13:55:00 [krijnh]
Or did you mean a feature version?
13:56:00 [anne]
a second-to-last
13:56:09 [anne]
s/a /ah, /
13:56:24 [krijnh]
Ah, sorry
13:56:29 [anne]
thanks
13:56:31 [krijnh]
Your last one wasn't in bloglines yet
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15:32:29 [anne]
hmm, HTTP interoperability...
15:42:58 [anne]
I hacked the Python server a bit more and I can now make my own "asis" files. Similar to Apache, except that no header whatsoever is generated in my version.
15:43:17 [anne]
Browsers are already non-interoperable when it comes to multiple Location or Content-Type headers
15:43:23 [anne]
and that's everything I've tested so far
15:44:07 [anne]
They do all recognize that supporting LF besides the mandatory CRLF from HTTP is a nice thing to do
15:44:57 [anne]
And they also all agree that listing the status text and status after HTTP/1.1 is not necessarily needed and can be omitted (prolly defaulting to 200 OK?!)
15:45:11 [gsnedders]
anne: yeah, 200
15:45:17 [anne]
Similarly, "HTTP/1.1 302 FOOBAR" results in a redirect
15:45:22 [gsnedders]
anne: the status text is in some cases not sent anyway
15:45:28 [gsnedders]
anne: that's as per RFC2616
15:45:37 [gsnedders]
anne: the status text is meaningless, though required
15:45:40 [anne]
oh, status text is optional?
15:45:51 [gsnedders]
anne: no, it must be there, though it means nothing
15:45:59 [anne]
grmbl
15:46:00 [gsnedders]
anne: I think 200 foo is valid
15:46:09 [gsnedders]
anne: you just need _something_
15:46:19 [anne]
i do love this Python Web server thingie though
15:46:43 [gsnedders]
my one ended up with such a terrible codebase
15:46:47 [anne]
I can test everything I couldn't before. The only problem is that whenever I update it I have to rerun the script and pick a different port
15:46:48 [gsnedders]
I'm planning on writing a new one
15:47:13 [anne]
you want mine? it's 87 lines of pretty ok code...
15:47:50 [gsnedders]
anne: "The reason phrases listed here are only recommendations -- they MAY be replaced by local equivalents without affecting the protocol."
15:48:08 [anne]
lol
15:48:09 [gsnedders]
anne: I'd rather write my own. Good practice for my Python (which isn't that brillaint)
15:48:20 [gsnedders]
anne: (that's from RFC2616, BTW)
15:48:25 [anne]
i got that
15:48:53 [gsnedders]
anne: you need the space preceding the reason phrase, but the reason phrase itself may be blank
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15:49:02 [gsnedders]
anne: it's mad. :)
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15:49:22 [anne]
you sure?
15:49:34 [gsnedders]
anne: oh, that's per RFC 2616
15:49:43 [gsnedders]
anne: in the real world, nothing requires that space
15:49:52 [gsnedders]
lots of things break if you try and require it
15:50:22 [anne]
indeed, without that space things just work
15:50:46 [anne]
without HTTP/1.1 it is all printed as text/plain though
15:51:04 [gsnedders]
HTTP/1.1.1 has different results in different UAs
15:52:14 [gsnedders]
Safari prints out the entire response, most other just take it as HTTP/1.1
15:55:48 [gsnedders]
hopefully I'll have time over my October holidays to work on HTTP parsing…
15:56:59 [anne]
this is fun stuff
15:57:08 [gsnedders]
saner than HTML, though
15:57:11 [anne]
like a whole new can of interoperability holes to exploit
15:57:13 [gsnedders]
(mostly)
15:57:21 [gsnedders]
IIS does some really weird stuff
15:58:39 [gsnedders]
If-None-Match: foobar returns 400 (Bad Request), whereas If-None-Match: "foobar" works fine
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16:45:59 [gsnedders]
anne: you have U+00A in your latest blog post, instead of U+000A
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16:59:09 [anne]
oops
17:00:09 [gsnedders]
anne: (and I've posted a comment)
17:03:30 [anne]
good point, changed U+000A to 0x0A etc.
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19:32:14 [anne]
jgraham, you're going to blog today?
19:49:22 [gsnedders]
jgraham has a blog?
19:51:53 [anne]
well, on blog.whatwg.org about the html5lib release
19:53:23 [Hixie]
well that was a big checkin
19:53:46 [anne]
HTTP/ followed by a non-DIGIT non-space character gives errors in IE
19:53:54 [anne]
other browsers just ignore HTTP/x and happily continue
19:54:02 [anne]
IE continues for HTTP/2 as well...
19:54:05 [anne]
hmm
19:54:09 [gsnedders]
Saf shows it all as text
19:54:21 [gsnedders]
then does normal content-type sniffing, I think
19:54:44 [anne]
Hixie, heh, indeed
19:57:07 [gsnedders]
(yes, I'm a lame copycat)
19:57:22 [Hixie]
heh
19:57:27 [Hixie]
i don't know if people'll like it or not
19:57:30 [Hixie]
i think it's redundant really
19:57:37 [Hixie]
but i figured i'd give it a shot
19:58:19 [gsnedders]
we say that algorithms must be followed, don't we?
19:58:29 [gsnedders]
(and for once I don't mean "you" when I say "we")
19:58:31 [Hixie]
right
19:58:38 [Hixie]
that's why it's probably redundant
19:59:17 [anne]
i'm not going to do it for other specs unless there are specific requests
20:00:04 [gsnedders]
I'm in no rush to copy it, as there aren't really any major algorithms in my draft yet
20:00:17 [gsnedders]
(silly schoolwork taking my time)
20:00:21 [anne]
is there a draft yet?
20:01:03 [gsnedders]
anne: nothing really worth showing anyone, and with almost nothing in it (i.e., it doesn't actually define the parsing of the data)
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20:03:22 [anne]
heh
20:03:25 [anne]
that sucks
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20:04:14 [gsnedders]
It's the sort of thing that normally makes me do badly.
20:04:22 [Hixie]
"you want me to say that it's 8bit, but it's actually 7bit (assuming you are actually referring to ANSI_X3.4-1968)"
20:04:32 [gsnedders]
Hixie: :)
20:04:42 [gsnedders]
Hixie: I took it up with the teacher once…
20:05:01 [gsnedders]
Hixie: Without a copy of ANSI_X3.4-1968 it's hard to prove, though
20:05:11 [gsnedders]
Hixie: Been tempted to point him at unicode.org, though
20:06:36 [Hixie]
and "You want me to say 16bit, but Unicode isn't an encoding format, so it doesn't actually have a size. It has codepoints from 0x00 to 0x10FFFF, and has encodings that use 7 bit components (UTF-7), 8 bit components (UTF-8), 16 bit components (UTF-16), and 32 bits (UTF-32); however in none of those encodings is a single character necessarily represented by a single codepoint and therefore even in those encodings it is hard to describe an actual size."
20:06:46 [gsnedders]
:)
20:06:57 [Hixie]
enjoy your test though
20:07:10 [anne]
even for UTF-32?
20:07:48 [gsnedders]
Hixie: there is only one way in UTF-8: non-shortest forms are illegal byte sequences
20:07:51 [Hixie]
anne: combining codepoints
20:07:59 [gsnedders]
Hixie: ah. those.
20:08:24 [Hixie]
even if you apply a radical normalisation form like NFKC, you still can't guarentee that one character has one byte
20:08:31 [Hixie]
or one "codepoint"
20:08:31 [Hixie]
rather
20:08:36 [Hixie]
anyway i'm starving, bbiab
20:08:41 [gsnedders]
Hixie: possibly more to your liking, physics test on Wednesday
20:09:15 [gsnedders]
(and it isn't (mostly) wrong)
20:10:19 [gsnedders]
I'm tempted to write something like that, but the answers get sent to the exam board…
20:12:28 [Hixie]
i'm not advising you either way :-)
20:13:58 [gsnedders]
Hixie: on grounds that you don't want me to be technically wrong, and you don't want me to fail? :)
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21:12:08 [Hixie]
gsnedders: on grounds that i don't know what the good advice would be :-)
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21:32:02 [anne]
Hixie, your last checkin actually affects Opera and not Firefox iirc
21:32:33 [Hixie]
oh?
21:32:43 [Hixie]
i thought firefox had an implementation
21:32:50 [Hixie]
and didn't know opera did
21:33:06 [anne]
Opera 9.50 Alpha shipped with some sort of array impl
21:33:11 [Hixie]
ah
21:33:18 [anne]
I don't think the impl made for Firefox ever got in the code
21:33:25 [anne]
checked in, I mean
21:33:54 [Hixie]
seems you're right
21:33:55 [Hixie]
oh well
21:34:14 [Hixie]
didn't know about the opera one, please do send feedback if the change is one that you disagree with
21:35:02 [kingryan]
Hixie: would it be possible to link the twitter messages to the diff for the changset?
21:35:26 [anne]
I think we're ok with it for similar reasons
21:35:41 [Dashiva]
I seem to recall words to that effect
21:36:23 [Hixie]
kingryan: not trivially, but if you want to code that up i can give you the code i'm using now and i'll happily apply any patches you suggest
21:36:36 [Hixie]
anne: good good
21:36:53 [Hixie]
:-(
21:37:04 [kingryan]
is it a svn commit hook?
21:37:12 [kingryan]
(/me was just kidding)
21:37:16 [Hixie]
not right now, but it could be
21:37:39 [kingryan]
when the code runs, does it have access to the revision number?
21:38:06 [Hixie]
let me just mail you the code, it'll be easier and i can get back to dealing with feedback while you look at it :-)
21:38:12 [Hixie]
what's your e-mail address?
21:39:07 [kingryan]
ryan@theryanking.com
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21:42:57 [Hixie]
sent
21:46:58 [anne]
Tantek: "theory: most html5 drama is a result of pragmatic empiricists finally challenging idealistic dogmatists"
21:48:06 [Dashiva]
Theory or hypothesis? :)
21:48:42 [anne]
meanwhile on WHATWG twitter "t271t"
21:50:52 [Dashiva]
Hixie: What's the reasoning for returning nothing on empty string?
21:51:06 [Hixie]
Dashiva: failing cheaply
21:52:21 [Philip]
Other theory: some HTML5 drama is a result of classifying people you disagree with into groups like "idealistic dogmatists" :-)
21:52:25 [Dashiva]
Kinda nasty if you use a variable set of classes and at some point the set is empty
21:53:04 [Dashiva]
Philip: Only an idealistic dogmatist would object to pragmatic empricial placement of people in groups
21:53:41 [Hixie]
Dashiva: can you give an example of a page that does that?
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21:58:01 [Dashiva]
No, but as a developer I would rather have a predictable function
21:58:34 [Dashiva]
People will shoot themselves in the foot with for (var i = 0; i < document.getElementsByClassName('pie').length; i++ ) anyway :)
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21:59:45 [Hixie]
Dashiva: it's not a matter of failing cheaply for the web authors
21:59:56 [Hixie]
Dashiva: it's a matter of failing cheaply for the users and implementors
22:01:46 [Dashiva]
But whether it ends up failing is up to the author. And I don't see how authors are likely to fail just this function enough to make a difference, without also having generally poor performance code
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22:02:28 [Hixie]
i don't understand what site is going to actually want to get all elements this way
22:02:40 [Hixie]
i understand your theoretical use case
22:02:48 [Hixie]
but i don't see any evidence that that would ever happen
22:03:48 [anne]
can't we introduce * if the need is there?
22:04:00 [Hixie]
we already have * in at least two other APIs
22:10:26 [Dashiva]
If it's not '', I don't see a point in allowing '*' since you might as well use gEBTN when you're special-casing the empty set
22:11:38 [Hixie]
agreed
22:12:16 [kingryan]
Hixie: commit.pl modified and replied, hopefully it'll be helpful
22:12:26 [Hixie]
thanks
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22:14:13 [kingryan]
btw, my connection to http://www.whatwg.org/issues/listen keeps timing out. is there anyone besides hixie who can look at that?
22:16:09 [anne]
nope, Hixie handles that part of whatwg.org
22:16:25 [Hixie]
how do you mean, timing out?
22:17:03 [anne]
although it seems to work for me (trying with wget)
22:17:16 [zcorpan_]
<div class="*"> .. getElementsByClassName("*")
22:17:25 [kingryan]
it never finishes loading and safari reports it as a timeout
22:17:25 [Hixie]
zcorpan_: that'll work
22:17:29 [kingryan]
(safari 3)
22:17:37 [Hixie]
kingryan: it's not supposed to finish loading.
22:17:50 [Hixie]
kingryan: not sure what "timeout" safari3 is hitting though
22:17:58 [zcorpan_]
Hixie: yep
22:19:56 [Hixie]
kingryan: (fyi, when changing system {} '', '' to ``, you have to drop the first argument)
22:20:08 [kingryan]
ah yes
22:20:21 [kingryan]
I changed that in my test script, but forgot to backport it
22:20:52 [Hixie]
though i never really feel safe running `` code, i always think i'm gonna be passing something to a shell
22:21:01 [jgraham]
anne: Not today, went to see a film instead. "Control". Highly recommended. Now - sleep.
22:21:39 [Hixie]
also you forgot quotes around the argument :-)
22:21:42 [kingryan]
Hixie: I, also feel weird using it, but it's the only shell scripting interface in perl (that I know of) that lets you capture the STDOUT
22:22:01 [Hixie]
i wrote my own once
22:22:04 [Hixie]
to get around this
22:22:09 [Hixie]
called safeBackticks or something
22:22:16 [Hixie]
i can't use this though
22:22:21 [kingryan]
why not?
22:22:25 [Hixie]
because it would break if the message contained quotes
22:22:31 [kingryan]
ah yeah
22:23:25 [Hixie]
i have no idea what kind of escaping i need here
22:23:28 [Hixie]
i don't know what shell is being used
22:23:40 [Philip]
open $fh, '-|', 'program', 'arg1', arg2'; ?
22:23:59 [Hixie]
Philip: does that run 'program' via a shell, or directly, as in system {} ?
22:25:04 [kingryan]
http://perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#Regexp-Quote-Like-Operators sugggests using the Text::Balanced module
22:28:03 [Hixie]
perlipc helpfully says:
22:28:09 [Hixie]
Another common use for this construct is when you need to execute some-
22:28:09 [Hixie]
thing without the shell's interference. With system(), it's straight-
22:28:09 [Hixie]
forward, but you can't use a pipe open or backticks safely. That's
22:28:09 [Hixie]
because there's no way to stop the shell from getting its hands on your
22:28:09 [Hixie]
arguments. Instead, use lower-level control to call exec() directly.
22:28:19 [Hixie]
(and gives some gnarly examples of what they mean)
22:28:33 [Hixie]
(which is what i based that aforementioned implementation on)
22:28:50 [Philip]
Hixie: I can't find anything obvious in the documentation to say what happens with list-open, but it seems to work in the practice at avoiding the shell
22:29:16 [Hixie]
Philip: i just found a paragraph in perlipc that says that it's the way to avoid a shell invokation, and that's it's new as of 5.8.0
22:29:22 [Philip]
e.g. "open $fh, '-|', 'echo', '$PATH'" says "$PATH", whereas "open $fh, '-|', 'echo $PATH'" prints the actual path
22:29:25 [Hixie]
which postdates my previous attempt at this
22:29:43 [Philip]
Aha, okay
22:31:08 [Hixie]
well, that was far more complicated than necessary to do what kingryan was trying to do
22:32:46 [Hixie]
ok well we'll see what happens now
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02:44:51 [karl]
http://www.caroline-middlebrook.com/blog/warning-dont-overlook-wordpress-blog-validation
02:44:59 [karl]
"The Image Description field populates the ALT tag as I have shown. This is a nice place to put keywords as long as you don’t overdo it."
02:45:01 [karl]
????
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04:59:36 [karl]
anne: do you know this? http://www.w3.org/2001/01/qa-ws/pp/alex-rousskov-measfact.html
05:00:41 [karl]
and this http://httpd.apache.org/test/
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06:43:47 [anne]
karl, neither of those seems applicable to Web browsers
06:47:03 [karl]
ooooooooh I had missed that you were discussing only the Blefuscu world of browsers
06:51:28 [anne]
well, I think gsnedders' scope might be wider than that
06:51:44 [anne]
at least he mentioned bugs in IIS
06:51:54 [gsnedders]
anne: yeah, my scope is both requests and responses
06:52:00 [gsnedders]
(g'morning anne, BTW)
06:52:13 [anne]
morning
06:52:38 [anne]
I mostly care about error handling in general and all things HTTP doesn't cover but should
06:54:32 [karl]
I guess it is AIDS generation, aka cover everything.
06:55:09 [gsnedders]
karl: I'm a 15 year old boy, what do you expect? :P
06:55:28 [karl]
;) constrained (sex) life
06:56:35 [karl]
:)
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06:57:06 [gsnedders]
actually, a better way to put that would be: "I couldn't resist"
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07:05:44 [karl]
http://mterry.name/log/2007/10/05/from-xhtml-to-html5/#comment-16521
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07:32:46 [anne]
lots of <div> but also some HTML5 elements in there
07:34:06 [anne]
someone should update http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods.html to say it's obsolete
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07:38:21 [MikeSmith]
anne - cvs says that last change to that file was Thu Jun 5 20:03:52 1997 UTC (10 years, 4 months ago) by frystyk
07:39:06 [MikeSmith]
Henrik Frystyk Nielsen
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07:41:54 [MikeSmith]
anne - if you care to take the time to edit that page and send me a copy (or diff) with your changes, I can check in an updated version
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10:51:37 [anne]
DanC, you might want to update http://www.w3.org/2007/app to point to RFC 5023
11:37:13 [anne]
hsivonen, what's the ostrich approach and I'm not sure I understand the concern about specialcasing GET access requests
11:37:38 [anne]
the reason there's a GET access request is that for XML resources this gives the author the ability to deny certain domains without server support
11:37:54 [hsivonen]
anne: the ostrich approach is putting my head in the sand and pretending the issue does not exist
11:38:05 [anne]
the other reason is that for the author supporting GET is the most trivial
11:38:13 [anne]
hsivonen, ah, duh :)
11:38:44 [hsivonen]
anne: making GET responses stick in the cache when RFC 2616 says otherwise would seriously suck in the following case:
11:39:02 [hsivonen]
1) script GETs /foo
11:39:12 [hsivonen]
2) script wants to POST to /foo
11:39:34 [hsivonen]
3) XHR GETs /foo with method check and pins the response to cache
11:39:42 [hsivonen]
4) XHR performs the POST
11:39:55 [hsivonen]
5) Script GETs the resource and gets a stale copy
11:40:15 [hsivonen]
script dev curses, appends salt and all cache benefits are lost
11:40:56 [anne]
I think we should be able to specify it in a way that for 5 you get a fresh copy
11:41:12 [anne]
but for subsequent POST requests the cached copy is used
11:41:16 [hsivonen]
anne: now, if you special-case the GET response cache pinning so that any non-access-control GET invalidates the cache lazily,
11:41:32 [hsivonen]
anne: wouldn't you be better off specifying this on a layer above HTTP
11:41:48 [hsivonen]
anne: instead of surgically altering HTTP caching behavior
11:41:58 [hsivonen]
anne: i.e. leaking your spec to the HTTP library
11:42:59 [hsivonen]
anne: how's your suggesting better than maintaining a separate access-control cache that wouldn't even require reparsing of the cached GET response?
11:43:03 [anne]
I suppose the layer above HTTP is OPTIONS?
11:43:18 [hsivonen]
no, OPTIONS is on HTTP layer
11:43:31 [anne]
right, that's what I thought, so what's your solution?
11:43:37 [hsivonen]
but remembering that /foo allows XHR POST is above HTTP
11:44:12 [hsivonen]
my solution is maintaining a method permission table that is independent of the HTTP cache
11:44:42 [anne]
my solution was maintaining an independent cache for access requests
11:45:03 [anne]
to not lose benefits of the HTTP cache
11:45:30 [hsivonen]
anne: do you mean a separate HTTP caching context that within itself behaves like a normal HTTP cache?
11:46:00 [anne]
I think so, so it honers HTTP headers related to caching
11:47:12 [hsivonen]
specifying that access-control checks happen in a separate HTTP caching context would solve the problem if browser devs are willing to built that capability
11:47:28 [hsivonen]
do browsers already have side-by-side independent HTTP caches?
11:48:21 [anne]
we do for widgets at least
11:49:04 [anne]
a simpler solution than that might be good as well though
11:49:25 [anne]
i'm just not sure what to say about when that "access allowed" thingie would expire, etc.
11:49:53 [hsivonen]
yes, that's an issue.
11:50:08 [hsivonen]
mainly for testing apps, though
11:50:35 [hsivonen]
once you get the permissions right, expiry until at the end of browser process might works
11:51:33 [anne]
hmm
11:52:21 [hsivonen]
or you could have a dedicated time-to-live header to go with the permission
11:56:08 [zcorpan_]
"in the upcoming release of the Markup Validator, detected usage of shorthand markup will be signaled as a warning." -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/shorttags.html
11:58:41 [anne]
hsivonen, I'm posting something to public-appformats now with the four solutions
11:59:01 [hsivonen]
anne: ok
12:00:53 [anne]
I should probably introduce the term "access request check" or something
12:01:03 [hsivonen]
yes
12:02:59 [hsivonen]
so is <base href=''/> considered to apply between the HTTP base URI and the root element xml:base in the inheritance chain?
12:03:39 [anne]
<base> is the Document.baseURI
12:03:46 [anne]
so yes
12:03:56 [hsivonen]
fun
12:04:07 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: yes (re xhtml5)
12:04:14 [hsivonen]
Hixie: "A base element, if it has an href attribute, must come before any other elements in the tree that have attributes with URIs." seems tautologous to me
12:04:19 [hsivonen]
Hixie: is it?
12:04:56 [hsivonen]
Hixie: that is, if the only start tags that can conformingly occur before are <html>, <head> and <meta charset>
12:05:15 [hsivonen]
and profile is no more and never was a normal URI
12:05:59 [zcorpan_]
(or perhaps the intent was to relax the requirement so that you could e.g. place <title> before the <base>)
12:06:30 [hsivonen]
time to send mail, I guess
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12:36:06 [anne]
hsivonen, if we pick option 4 (re: public-appformats) it would maybe be good to also invalidate the stored option if the access check of the POST request failed
12:37:33 [hsivonen]
yeah
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12:45:32 [anne]
duplication?
12:52:24 [hsivonen]
anne: the spec says that the rel and relList DOM properties must reflect the rel content attribute
12:55:23 [anne]
that seems about right
12:55:32 [anne]
well, except for the word properties
12:55:48 [hsivonen]
word properties?
12:56:26 [anne]
"properties" -> "attributes"
12:57:17 [hsivonen]
oh. right
12:57:55 [anne]
note that reflect is defined based on the type of attribute
12:58:04 [anne]
so for relList it means something different
12:58:27 [anne]
(type of DOM attribute)
12:59:46 [hsivonen]
oh
13:02:41 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: re <meta>, i think the intent is to allow <meta name> in other languages where metadata elements are expected
13:03:36 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: that intent isn't at all clear
13:03:41 [hsivonen]
to me at least
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14:59:49 [zcorpan_]
wonder if i should test all aspects of [[Get]] on HTMLDocument and Window, and how they interact with functions, methods, properties and attributes
15:00:37 [zcorpan_]
e.g. <img name=getElementsByTagName>
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15:44:38 [anne]
Are there any outstanding comments on <video> not having height=/width=?
15:44:44 [anne]
hsivonen, you might have raised that already?
15:53:19 [zcorpan_]
anne: doesn't seem like it
15:53:34 [zcorpan_]
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder/graphics-video
15:58:13 [zcorpan_]
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/+cgi/issues.cgi&filter=0
16:00:22 [Philip]
Hmm, I guess that's a no
16:01:44 [zcorpan_]
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3C19700101011405970191.5386b4d6%40empyree.org%3E
16:02:48 [Philip]
Yahoo is a bit better, with about forty pages (out the two(?) thousand in total)
16:02:58 [Philip]
zcorpan_: Blame Hixie for that :-)
16:03:05 [zcorpan_]
:)
16:10:23 [zcorpan_]
Philip: could you have different <title>s for the pages?
16:11:06 [zcorpan_]
the subject line as <title>
16:11:51 [zcorpan_]
or the folder name for folders :)
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16:19:10 [Philip]
I guess it'd be nice to show the subject rather than ID on the message pages, but I can't see a trivial way to get that information (since '/issues/getdata body $id' only returns the body)
16:20:16 [Philip]
Hixie: Would it be possible to make the issues API return the subject line for a given message ID?
16:22:22 [Philip]
zcorpan_: It does <title>s now, though with the message ID on the message pages
16:23:59 [zcorpan_]
ok
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17:17:40 [hsivonen]
anne: I don't remember if I've raised video height/width in email, but it have discussed it on IRC
17:19:56 [hsivonen]
anne: I don't find a record of me raising it on-list
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19:26:19 [Hixie]
Philip: yeah, that should be possible... what level API? the server, or getdata?
19:29:58 [Philip]
Hixie: getdata (since I think that was the only documented API when I wrote this - I didn't even know there was another API until I looked just now)
19:35:20 [Hixie]
Philip: ok, added
19:42:46 [Philip]
Hixie: Thanks!
19:43:03 [Philip]
zcorpan: It shows the subject in the <title>/<h1> now
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23:52:27 [anne]
Hixie, I think <video> needs height= / width= as convenient shorthands
23:52:37 [Hixie]
why?
23:52:46 [Hixie]
(why can't a single line in a stylesheet do it instead?)
23:52:57 [anne]
because people want convenient shorthands
23:53:03 [anne]
and expect it to work like that
23:53:29 [Hixie]
people expect <font> to work, doesn't mean we should encourage it. we have the opportunity here to prevent abuse, why not take it?
23:53:30 [anne]
it make a lot of sense to keep that consistent with all the other replaced elements
23:53:55 [anne]
i'm not sure how height= and width= would be that harmful given that <video> allows the content to be played independently from the browser
23:53:58 [Hixie]
you'll notice the other replaced elements don't have height/width defined yet either
23:54:28 [Hixie]
the point is the author shouldn't be putting half his style in the stylesheet and the other half in the content
23:54:33 [Hixie]
that's dumb
23:54:35 [Hixie]
and defeats the point of stylesheets.
23:58:26 [Hixie]
(height/width are on <canvas> because they define the canvas coordinate space, and on <img> to allow browsers to prevent reflows -- that's all)
00:02:45 [anne]
i'm not sure it's that dump for a single element on the page
00:03:21 [Hixie]
why not? the size of the video depends entirely on the style being used, which should be in the stylesheet.
00:03:47 [Hixie]
consider this -- it should be in an attribute if (a) it doesn't change based on the media or device, and (b) it would never change based on which alternative stylesheet is used.
00:03:51 [Hixie]
neither applies here.
00:05:11 [anne]
for the common case you want height=/width=
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00:05:27 [Hixie]
you keep saying that but i don't see why
00:05:40 [Hixie]
why would we need it on <video> any more than on <iframe>?
00:05:55 [anne]
i think you want it on both
00:06:29 [Hixie]
why? i've given you several arguments against, so far your argument in favour has just been that you think you want it :-)
00:07:18 [Hixie]
(would you also want align="" on <p>?)
00:07:41 [anne]
i'd want align on <col>
00:09:07 [anne]
for tables with numbers
00:09:31 [Hixie]
given how well that works with css, that's a whole other ball game
00:09:48 [Hixie]
(i could see arguments for <col type=numeric> or something)
00:10:02 [Hixie]
(though imho UAs should just autodetect these cases)
00:10:07 [Hixie]
(in the no-style case)
00:10:32 [anne]
i think authors would be better of saying it with align than with type=numeric... but yeah, maybe
00:12:11 [anne]
i don't think some amount of practical presentational markup is harmful
00:12:38 [anne]
i'm not really convinced <video style=height:100px;width:100px> is better than <video height=100 width=100>
00:13:05 [Hixie]
you'll notice style="" isn't conforming either
00:13:22 [Hixie]
style="height:100px;width:100px" has exactly the same problems as height=100 width=100
00:13:33 [Hixie]
it's just a minor syntactic difference
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00:13:40 [anne]
<div><video></video><style scope>video { height:100px;width:100px } </style></div> then which seems even worse
00:14:00 [anne]
oh, I guess it's scoped= and not scope
00:14:35 [Hixie]
and the <style> would be before the <video>. the difference there is that at least the dimensions would end up right next to the styles that set everything else up, like the borders, background colour for the video player, etc
00:14:44 [Hixie]
i mean, why would you want height/width and not bgcolor=""?
00:14:50 [Hixie]
or would you want that too?
00:15:44 [anne]
bgcolor is something that can be shared across lots of pages, height/width seems something more special to the specific video
00:15:58 [Hixie]
ohhh, i think i see where our assumptions are differing
00:16:16 [Hixie]
video player dimensions don't generally differ from video to video.
00:16:25 [Hixie]
look at, e.g. metacafe. or youtube.
00:17:19 [anne]
in the case that they do, the required syntax is very annoying
00:17:32 [anne]
whether <style scoped> is before or after the <video> :)
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00:18:10 [anne]
(this applies to more than just <video> though, imo)
00:18:12 [Hixie]
i think it's as likely that the video dimensions will be different per page as it is likely that the style of text, controls, etc, around the video will differ per page
00:18:30 [Hixie]
and i don't see why two of the properties would be special cased when everything else has to go into <style> blocks.
00:19:00 [Hixie]
furthermore, <style> blocks are easy to extend to media-specific, device-specific, and alternative-stylesheet-specific cases, which is not the case at all for attributes.
00:19:16 [Hixie]
we want to encourage good authoring practices.
00:20:45 [anne]
that shouldn't really go at the cost of convenience though, imo
00:20:51 [anne]
anyway, I should go to bed
00:21:32 [Hixie]
i'm all for finding solutions that are convenient while being good authoring practice
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08:03:20 [hsivonen]
Hixie: I agree with anne about video width/height
08:05:03 [mjs]
what did anne say, that it should have width/height attributes?
08:06:03 [hsivonen]
mjs: yes, that it should have width/height for convenience, because managing a scoped style block for that is silly
08:06:37 [mjs]
I agree it should have height/width
08:07:06 [hsivonen]
FWIW, the wikipedia dev, who was prototyping <video> support, intuitively assumed that there'd be width and height
08:07:06 [mjs]
although bringing the style="" attribute back would reduce the benefit slightly
08:08:16 [mjs]
Hixie is somehow convinced that <style scoped> would lead to better authoring practices than style="" but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for this, even circumstantial
08:08:52 [mjs]
and the fact that <img> width/height attributes remain conforming strongly leads one to expect them for <video> as well
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09:38:59 [hsivonen]
hmm. seaching for duplicates on the issue tracker takes more time than I'd like :-(
09:39:11 [hsivonen]
hmm. my issue seems to be a duplicate
09:39:17 [hsivonen]
oh well
09:41:08 [anne]
maybe someone should implement a search function?
09:43:13 [hsivonen]
Philip: <a href='...' rel='next'>Next</a> would be super-useful when reading through a list of messages in an issue tracker folder
09:43:36 [Philip]
http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/expand and ctrl+F?
09:43:54 [hsivonen]
ooh!
09:44:09 [Philip]
(Takes a while to load...)
09:44:16 [hsivonen]
Philip: thanks
09:44:33 [hsivonen]
I suppose I should have found this from robots.txt :-)
09:45:38 [Philip]
hsivonen: A message can be in multiple folders, so there's not a simple message_id -> next_message_id mapping, so I think that wouldn't be possible with the way my code is currently set up
09:45:45 [hsivonen]
FWIW, my issue would have been that cite='' should be subjected to the kind of scrutiny that longdesc='' has been subjected to
09:45:49 [hsivonen]
Philip: ok
09:46:10 [hsivonen]
Philip: expand plus client-side search works for me
09:46:26 [Philip]
but the folders link to e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder_expand/WF2 which shows all the messages from that folder anyway, which seems an easier way of going through the list
09:46:52 [Philip]
(and that's far less inefficient than the global /expand)
09:48:23 [Philip]
Hmm, the last line in robots.txt looks wrong
09:58:57 [hsivonen]
okay, time to implement <dialog>
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11:53:25 [hsivonen]
are the type and media attributes on <a> known to solve a real problem in real software?
11:53:33 [hsivonen]
what about hreflang?
11:58:32 [zcorpan_]
styling hooks
12:01:10 [hsivonen]
ok.
12:01:24 [hsivonen]
(though styling hooks are a bad excuse in general)
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12:06:46 [zcorpan_]
yeah
12:07:20 [zcorpan_]
they are useful on <link>, so being consistent with <a> is nice and might be useful for styling :)
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12:42:00 [hendry]
hsivonen: when i go back from validating a page in validator.nu the validate button is disabled until a refresh (firefox 2.0.0.6)
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13:35:05 [shepazu]
zcorpan_, it also won't work on XHTML elements...
13:37:37 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: ?
13:38:06 [zcorpan_]
why not?
13:39:29 [shepazu]
well, AIUI, XHTML1.1 is an XML syntax, and that kind of "vendor-prefix" syntax isn't allowed (that's from CSS, not from XML)
13:39:52 [hsivonen]
hendry: that's a known problem. I don't know how to fix it and still get the benefits of disabling stuff in the onsubmit handler
13:40:16 [hsivonen]
hendry: is there an event that fires when the page reappears after Back?
13:40:20 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: <foo bar-baz=""/> is perfectly ok XML
13:40:53 [shepazu]
now, it could be defined to work in HTML 5, probably, but that means that the content from HTML5/xml wouldn't validate in XHTML1.1 UAs
13:41:18 [hsivonen]
shepazu: are there any XHTML 1.1 UAs?
13:41:27 [hsivonen]
shepazu: if there are, are there any that validate?
13:41:43 [hsivonen]
shepazu: and how would the aaa: stuff validate any better?
13:41:52 [hendry]
hsivonen: an event? no idea
13:41:56 [shepazu]
yes, validators and XSL processors, for example
13:42:04 [shepazu]
UA != browser
13:42:37 [hsivonen]
shepazu: I think it isn't useful to design stuff on the premise that new stuff doesn't validate in legacy validators
13:42:57 [hsivonen]
shepazu: you could never introduce anything new
13:43:19 [hendry]
hsivonen: does html5 need a doctype? i thought it didn't for some reason? http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fplugin.webvm.net%2F2%2F
13:43:25 [shepazu]
I've had this argument about the HTML5 methodology
13:43:35 [hsivonen]
hendry: text/html does. a/x+x doesn't
13:43:46 [hsivonen]
afk
13:43:55 [hendry]
hsivonen: a/x+x?
13:44:02 [zcorpan_]
xml
13:44:07 [hsivonen]
hendry: application/xhtml+xml
13:44:13 [hsivonen]
really afk now
13:44:19 [hendry]
wha... :) i hate xml :)
13:44:49 [shepazu]
but I'm not prepared to argue about it right now, I have work to do... consult wiser heads than mine, zcorpan_
13:45:17 [zcorpan_]
ok
13:45:21 [hendry]
I guess I need a <!DOCTYPE HTML SYSTEM> when serving text/htmlk
13:45:34 [zcorpan_]
s/ SYSTEM//
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13:46:05 [hendry]
no SYSTEM? I don't even know what SYSTEM means here. Can someone remind me?
13:46:42 [zcorpan_]
it's a keyword that means that the declaration has no FPI
13:47:26 [zcorpan_]
e.g. -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
13:49:00 [hendry]
thanks
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14:06:58 [anne]
zcorpan_, why did you remove aria-* for SVG?
14:07:02 [anne]
that doesn't seem at all useful
14:08:52 [zcorpan_]
anne: the svg wg don't want to have aria-* in svg, it seems
14:20:42 [anne]
hmm, spec lawyering
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14:54:16 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: I was about to suggest aria-* for SVG :-/
14:56:15 [anne]
seems that the SVG guys care more about consistency with validation tools than with HTML
14:56:26 [anne]
beats me
14:58:23 [hsivonen]
what validation tools allow aaa:foo but don't allow aria-foo?
14:59:12 [hsivonen]
do they have an NVDL splitter that allows anything as long as it is in a foreign namespace?
15:01:50 [anne]
maybe they allow namespaced attributes by default? Atom does that, for instance
15:02:08 [anne]
I've no idea why Atom does that, it doesn't make sense to me at all, but that's how some people think architecture works
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15:05:24 [hsivonen]
anne: yeah, but Atom validation tools are abnormal
15:22:01 [hsivonen]
well, I sent email anyway
15:22:54 [anne]
I guess the SVG WG just has a different vision on how the Web should work
15:23:46 [gsnedders]
anne: do they define error handling (above the XML level, for things like out-of-viewbox issues)? :P
15:24:16 [anne]
they actually define some error handling, although things are not as clear as they could be
15:25:20 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2007OctDec/0062.html
15:26:29 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: makes you go "hmm"
15:26:52 [anne]
that's weird
15:27:15 [anne]
too bad the SVG WG operates Member-only
15:27:49 [zcorpan_]
"... I don't see how we could do number 1, because we'd have to add many attributes to the relaxNG" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-svg-minutes.html
15:28:06 [hsivonen]
aargh.
15:30:28 [hsivonen]
If you want to validate aaa:foo with RNG, you need to have in RNG anyway.
15:31:07 [anne]
not if you have have someattribute, any-uri:*
15:31:21 [anne]
(syntax may be inaccurate)
15:31:26 [hsivonen]
well, then you leave those unvalidated
15:31:50 [hsivonen]
if you want to validate stuff, you validate it no matter where
15:32:19 [hsivonen]
if aaa:* makes a difference, it's because you drop something on the floor based on namespace
15:32:41 [anne]
can you maybe reuse aaa|* definitions but not |* definitions?
15:37:19 [anne]
but even if it makes it harder to write RNG that shouldn't be an excuse to make it harder for authors imo
15:37:37 [anne]
that's just plain silly and puts the burdon on the wrong people
15:38:17 [zcorpan_]
one guy can write the schema once
15:38:29 [zcorpan_]
whereas there will be many authors who will use the attributes many times
15:38:39 [zcorpan_]
so indeed
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16:45:31 [anne]
fun: Total journey time: "[Ljava.lang.Object;@3adf6f3a hours {1} minutes Operated by [Ljava.lang.Object;@3aa3ef3a"
16:45:46 [anne]
oops, "Total journey time: [Ljava.lang.Object;@3adf6f3a hours {1} minutes
16:45:46 [anne]
Operated by [Ljava.lang.Object;@3aa3ef3a"
16:46:41 [anne]
(oh I see, that's only for the text/plain variant)
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17:09:11 [MikeSmith]
WebKit now on Windows Mobile:
17:09:14 [MikeSmith]
http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2007-October/002572.html
17:11:20 [gavin_]
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17:17:47 [mjs]
there's a lot of mobile browsers based on WebKit
17:17:50 [mjs]
I need to make a list
17:17:55 [mjs]
that port did not look very complete though
17:25:17 [MikeSmith]
mjs - and even a complete port is first step. getting it tested and pre-installed on shipping OEM production devices takes a lot more steps...
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17:58:03 [shepazu]
the problem with having to change the schema is that without a mechanism for extensibility, the possible set of combinations is going to be bounded by a single source, the schema writer
17:58:49 [shepazu]
with namespaces, the author (and the UA) is free to create custom extensions that were never anticipated by the writer of the schema
18:15:05 [kingryan]
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18:17:31 [anne]
so 1) i'm not sure how custom extensions are good for the web and 2) we're designing a language for humans, not schema writers
18:25:19 [mjs]
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18:33:06 [shepazu]
anne: 1) then educate yourself and 2) read what I said, and answer your own question. It's not about the schema writers, it's about authors being able to do what they want *without* the schema writers
18:36:44 [anne]
that's not much of an answre
18:36:47 [anne]
answer, even
18:36:55 [shepazu]
it wasn't much of a question
18:38:40 [shepazu]
anne, we've talked about this before, and I think you know the answers to the questions you've posed
18:39:41 [shepazu]
I cannot see why you would want to limit authors to a preset set of combinations of languages, nor prevent them from adding their own custom attributes (for metadata, for example)
18:39:43 [anne]
sorry, no, there's no indication anywhere that I'm aware of that shows that extensibility using namespaces is great for authors in general
18:40:05 [anne]
because it's better that authors author content that users can consume, in the general case
18:40:30 [shepazu]
for myself, within a year or so of starting to use JS, I was using namespaces and very glad to have them
18:40:54 [shepazu]
and I don't think I was an expert author at that time, but it still wasn't hard to grasp
18:41:25 [shepazu]
now, as a slightly more advanced author, I still really like them, for the same reasons and more
18:42:07 [shepazu]
you've yet to convince me that they aren't a good idea
18:43:29 [shepazu]
dropping content that a UA doesn't understand is a reasonable fallback for non-ns content extensions, but it would be even better if the UA knew what to do with that content, which is what namespaces provide
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18:44:17 [anne]
that there's need for namespaces in JS doesn't mean there's need for namespaces in HTML/SVG
18:44:41 [shepazu]
sorry, didn't follow
18:45:13 [shepazu]
I mean, the namespaces I was using were in HTML/SVG, not in the script
18:45:50 [shepazu]
setting custom attributes that let me add notations and parameters to specific elements that didn't render, but which I could use
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19:16:40 [hsivonen]
shepazu: I don't see why schema writers wouldn't catch up with language changes
19:17:10 [shepazu]
hsivonen, let me explain
19:17:14 [hsivonen]
shepazu: that is, adding ARIA in the W3C is rather different from an author adding his/her custom stuff and not bothering to update a schema
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19:18:18 [shepazu]
consider a mapping application, where the user wants to set, say, coordinate or altitude information on certain elements, for use in their own script lib
19:18:36 [shepazu]
they may or may not have a schema for those attributes, doesn't matter
19:19:21 [shepazu]
though it's better if they do, because that way they can validate their own custom content, too
19:20:07 [shepazu]
with namespaces, the writer of the original schema (say, SVG) doesn't have to make any changes
19:20:17 [shepazu]
it's built-in
19:20:45 [shepazu]
and if other people like this approach, and want to use the same schema, they can
19:20:57 [shepazu]
and they can validate their content too
19:21:12 [shepazu]
but I'm not telling you anything you don't know
19:21:24 [shepazu]
and I have lots of work to do today
19:21:34 [shepazu]
maybe we can debate it another day
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19:46:30 [anne]
maybe it's part of the container format
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19:49:15 [mjs]
I dunno if ogg supports it at all
19:49:55 [hsivonen]
shepazu: Actually, I don't know whether schemata produced by the SVG WG have a wild card for foreign namespaces.
19:51:31 [anne]
mjs, if it has such a feature it's well hidden
19:51:39 [hsivonen]
shepazu: fwiw, the way I hedge my RELAX NG bets against the possibility of HTML5 introducing a non-xmlns private attribute prefix is that I make sure I have the capability to filter the infoset between the parser and the RNG engine
19:59:27 [anne]
except when you add "mpeg"
19:59:29 [hsivonen]
anne: there's UI for poster frame in the view menu in the Pro-enabled version of QuickTime Player
20:01:03 [mjs]
anne: QuickTime (and I believe MPEG-4) definitely supports it
20:01:31 [anne]
mjs, oh, I believe that
20:01:33 [Philip]
Does it store an actual image in the video file, or does it just point to a frame number? (If the latter, I expect it'd involve quite a lot of downloading and re-downloading to get all the headers and the previous frames up to the last keyframe, which sounds like a pain)
20:02:03 [gsnedders]
Philip: IIRC it stores it as the first frame (in the sequence)
20:02:32 [mjs]
ogg certainly could (and probably should) support it
20:02:50 [mjs]
Philip: I believe it is possible to have a poster frame that is not part of the normal video play sequence
20:02:54 [mjs]
Philip: not 100% sure though
20:05:29 [hsivonen]
mjs: the QuickTime UI model does assume that the poster frame is a frame that you can navigate to on the time track
20:06:45 [kingryan_]
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20:53:10 [DanC]
eek... 2007/08/16 is quite a bit more than 2 weeks ago
21:01:45 [DanC]
care and feeding of http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews continues
21:01:58 [DanC]
I should add my review of the introduction
21:02:13 [DanC]
and perhaps fielding's review of "Determining the type of a new resource in a browsing context"
21:18:24 [jgraham]
DanC: Are we expected to update that page when we do something that could be considered a detailed review?
21:19:00 [DanC]
well, sorta; the target is that it documents reviews of each section by at least 2 WG members
21:19:24 [DanC]
once it shows that ?WHO has done a review of ?SECTION, further updates about ?WHO and ?SECTION aren't really essential
21:23:28 [DanC]
ok, let's see where we are on toward release of Design Principles ...
21:25:25 [gavin_]
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21:28:27 [DanC]
$Revision: 1.9 $ of $Date: 2007-09-14 09:44:18 $
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22:36:45 [anne]
SMIL 3, fun
22:38:13 [anne]
oh, even more namespaces
22:38:21 [DanC]
I read more than the section heading today; I think there's not much overlap between SMIL 3 state and HTML after all
22:38:52 [anne]
SMIL is terrible
22:38:53 [DanC]
yes, I'm tracking Simon's comment on namespaces
22:40:35 [anne]
I hope browsers will never implement more than the bit that SVG has integrated
22:40:54 [anne]
(and even that's painful)
22:46:59 [jgraham]
I do wonder where the notion that declarative solutions are always easier than scripting comes from
22:48:33 [DanC]
I don't think anybody said "always", but http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html makes a pretty good argument that scripting should be avoided in most cases
22:48:44 [DanC]
"most" might even be too strong
22:49:04 [DanC]
if HTML were turing complete like postscript and TeX, I think we'd all be a lot worse off
22:49:35 [kingryan]
DanC: least power isn't the only principle at play here
22:49:48 [kingryan]
there's also the babel problem and the vocabulary size problem
22:49:57 [anne]
DanC, for parsing I think everyone agrees
22:51:44 [DanC]
the vocabulary size problem seems like pretty much the same thing as the least power issue. i.e. if there's no manageable declarative vocabulary, then you're stuck with scripting
22:52:23 [kingryan]
my point is that if you want to do everything declaratively, you have to create vocabulary for everything
22:52:51 [DanC]
can we take "everything" out of the discussion?
22:52:52 [kingryan]
which is unmanageable to implement, so there's some point at which it costs more to implement the declarative vocabulary
22:52:54 [kingryan]
sorry
22:53:23 [kingryan]
s/everything/feature X/
22:53:41 [DanC]
yes, the SMIL hypothesis is that there's a mangeable vocabulary for synchroinzed multimedia integration. It's arguably false.
22:53:55 [kingryan]
if few people use feature X, it might not be worth the cost of implementers to provide declarative syntax for it
22:54:10 [mjs]
the problem is that if SMIL adds too much power then it is just a scripting language with difficult syntax
22:54:10 [kingryan]
I'm only arguing that least power doesn't always apply
22:54:16 [mjs]
XSLT is basically there already
22:54:26 [anne]
yeah, XSLT is turing complete
22:54:26 [DanC]
flash is turing complete, though I wonder... do flash authors usually write programs, or do they choose from menus and such?
22:54:30 [jgraham]
Indeed XML syntax makes the problem worse
22:54:41 [mjs]
flash authors definitely write programs
22:54:44 [DanC]
XSLT is certainly scripting, though somehow it gets sold as easier than Java. go figure.
22:54:46 [anne]
same for the XForms scripting markup
22:54:50 [mjs]
but they have tools to help them build the UI
22:55:14 [mjs]
XSLT is way harder to use than a dumb text processing perl script, though it may give you better odds that the output is well-formed
22:56:18 [jgraham]
XSLT is also (in my limited experience) hard compared to Python+Genshi which can ensure well-formed output
22:56:59 [DanC]
W3C used to sorta say "we don't do programming languages". then we did XSLT, under the guise of "it's not a general purpose programmingn language; it's just for transformations for style". then even that went out the window with XSLT 2. it's an unabashed programming language
22:56:59 [kingryan]
xslt is also harder than javascript + some libraries that help with building markup
22:57:22 [anne]
XSLT 1 is turing complete already
22:57:27 [DanC]
yup
22:58:02 [DanC]
I'm constantly surprised when people tell me (mostly 2nd hand) "I can't write programs, but I can write XSLT". as I say, go figure.
22:58:30 [DanC]
python+genshi rocks. I get quite a bit done with XSLT too, though.
22:58:45 [DanC]
if I had learned javascript earlier, I might use it a lot more than XSLT.
23:00:02 [mjs]
so anyway, once you have variables, mutation and state, it's hard to argue you're not a scripting language
23:01:03 [jgraham]
Hmm. The rule of least power document is interesting but I think not quite compelling. The real message seems to be "formats where information suitable for reuse can be extracted are good"
23:01:21 [DanC]
nobody who knows what they're talking about argues that XSLT 1 isn't turing complete or that it's not a scripting language; but I get reports that people think they can do XSLT but they can't program.
23:01:49 [DanC]
yes, jgraham , and the halting problem says that scripting languages are arbitrarily hard to reuse
23:02:51 [jgraham]
Sure. But usually it's data that you're interested in reusing
23:03:25 [DanC]
not in the case of document formats like TeX and postscript.
23:03:58 [DanC]
the point of the least power finding could be phrased as "don't hide your data inside programs"
23:04:10 [DanC]
TeX and postscript and flash, I guess.
23:04:45 [jgraham]
Well LaTeX isn't so hard to reuse. Sure it might be easier if it were less powerful but the language would also be less compelling.
23:05:18 [DanC]
LaTeX is not hard to reuse? are you speaking from experience?
23:05:42 [jgraham]
Well I've used LaTeX and I've reused other people's LaTeX...
23:05:45 [DanC]
have you ever looked at latex2html.pl? just thinking about it gives me shivers.
23:06:09 [DanC]
I don't mean manual copy-and-paste reuse; I mean reuse by programs
23:06:20 [jgraham]
No. OTOH, conversion of LaTeX to HTML is hard because HTML is feature-poor compared to LaTeX
23:06:58 [jgraham]
(it is, admittedly much harder because people can program their own macros)
23:07:37 [DanC]
hasta.
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23:17:23 [jgraham]
I think my point of view is much more human-authoring focussed than machine-parsing focussed. Obviously if your view is based around how easy it is for machines to parse out data then then something like the rule of least power makes a lot of sense
23:19:39 [jgraham]
OTOH, I see people use LaTeX every day and really care about minutiae like how adjacent equations line up. LaTeX is good for that sort of thing because experts can write macros that can be used trivially by everyone else to get the exact effect that they want
23:20:45 [jgraham]
So the question, in that case is: would a less powerful language be just as popular or would it be replaced by a more powerful one?
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23:27:52 [anne]
jgraham, HTML hasn't been replaced yet
23:28:02 [anne]
then again, it "features" JS for complex stuff
23:28:08 [jgraham]
anne: ?
23:28:24 [jgraham]
Who suggested replacing HTML?
23:28:26 [jgraham]
Oh I see
23:28:45 [anne]
:)
23:28:57 [jgraham]
Yeah, it quickly grew Turing completeness
23:29:30 [anne]
this seems to be a positive thing, although it might have been better if tokenizer character insertion was left out
23:30:20 [anne]
(XForms Actions is the XForms programming language btw)
23:32:17 [jgraham]
Oddly enough javascript is one method people are using to replicate LaTeX maths features in HTML
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23:36:08 [anne]
might be a good idea
23:36:53 [anne]
it's not that late yet in the UK though
23:37:00 [anne]
well less late than here :)
00:03:04 [anne]
nice, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296904 is RESOLVED FIXED
00:03:08 [anne]
one interop issue less
00:15:54 [mjs_]
nice!
00:19:53 [Philip]
(Seems to be the first automated canvas test in Mozilla, as far as I can see)
00:23:39 [mjs]
WebKit has a bunch of canvas tests
00:23:52 [mjs]
they might be handy to steal for future moz patches
00:25:38 [Philip]
Not sure if they'd work trivially in the reftest framework, since I think(?) the WebKit ones are all <canvas> vs PNG comparison, whereas Mozilla wants <canvas> vs HTML
00:26:29 [Philip]
but it could be useful even if it takes a little effort
00:27:28 [mjs]
they would not work trivially, but they would be useful starting points
00:27:53 [Hixie]
only 4 e-mails left in my offline-webapps folder!
00:27:56 [mjs]
we have other tests where the PNG comparison is not essential to its usefulness
00:28:15 [Hixie]
unfortunately they're the four written after i wrote up the spec, so they're the ones that'll have many problems for me
00:28:27 [Hixie]
sql is probably next on my list
00:28:33 [Hixie]
(as in, tomorrow or friday)
00:30:05 [Hixie]
i'm renaming application="" to manifest=""
00:32:51 [mjs]
I kind of liked the cuteness of saying <html application=...
00:33:10 [mjs]
but menifest="" is admittedly a bit more accurate
00:33:27 [mjs]
(though not as precise as, say, offlinecachemanifest)
00:33:54 [Hixie]
yeah i liked the cuteness too
00:33:59 [Hixie]
but sadly cuteness does not a good API make
00:34:31 [Hixie]
oh hey
00:34:44 [Hixie]
<html manifest> makes it impossible to have URIs only be after <base>
00:34:51 [Hixie]
well crap.
00:45:36 [mjs]
you could require it to be an absolute URI maybe
00:47:17 [Hixie]
relative is fine
00:47:22 [Hixie]
it just won't be relative to <base>
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08:07:19 [Philip]
<span class="msoIns"><ins cite="mailto:ddbmemo">mailto:ddbmemo" datetime="2005-02-15T14:08"> </ins></span><span class="msoDel"><del cite="mailto:ddbmemo" datetime="2005-02-15T14:08"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></del></span>
08:07:41 [Philip]
(via http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/cite)
08:07:48 [Philip]
doesn't look overwhelmingly useful
08:22:02 [Lachy]
looks like Chaals began transferring my w3c status from Invited Expert to Opera Employee, and I've currently been removed from the htmlwg.
08:22:06 [Lachy]
I should be re-added soon
08:25:50 [hsivonen]
Philip: documenting who made the change for Word round tripping is rather different from pointing to an explanation document
08:26:07 [anne]
hmm logs are offline
08:26:37 [hsivonen]
Philip: but the above is a clever hack to take over a repurpose the attribute for app-specific round-trip purposes
08:28:01 [hsivonen]
why is src on iframe optional but required on img and embed?
08:29:13 [mjs]
hsivonen: because it's a valid use case to make an empty iframe and document.write into it, I presume
08:29:37 [mjs]
(of course, one could say the same of "set src later" for any element that can have src)
08:30:22 [hsivonen]
mjs: ok
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10:32:04 [anne]
bah, writing down exactly how the access method check requests and access method check store work is annoying
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10:35:19 [hsivonen]
making one of the common attrs required on a particular element in RNG is annoying. gonna do it in Schematron
10:39:15 [anne]
although validator.w3.org should tell me otherwise, I'm still amazed that running through all those schema's can be efficient enough
10:40:40 [hsivonen]
anne: do you mean efficient in terms CPU time?
10:42:01 [anne]
responsiveness
10:42:59 [hsivonen]
anne: html5.validator.nu keeps an in-memory compiled representations of the schemas and interprets those representations using Java that is compiled to native code
10:43:23 [anne]
i suppose that helps :)
10:43:38 [hsivonen]
anne: well, with pure DTDs you need to reparse the DTD every time
10:43:43 [hsivonen]
should make a difference
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10:46:53 [hsivonen]
anne: what bothers me when it comes to efficiency is the Jing+Saxon Schematron impl builds a document tree
10:47:30 [hsivonen]
anne: but, again, the thing that runs against that tree is a pre-compiled XSLT transform
10:59:28 [zcorpan_]
btw. i don't think ARIA is conveniently expressable in relax ng, if the conformance requirements are to be useful
10:59:52 [anne]
prolly not
11:02:47 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: I don't mind punching holes in the RNG schema and dealing with the details elsewhere
11:03:03 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: what kind of problems do you mean, though?
11:04:06 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: is this like microformats where you'd want to have a projection where the attribute values are moved to element names for the purpose of grammar capabilities?
11:04:21 [anne]
the aria-foo attributes depend on the role value
11:04:34 [hsivonen]
anne: that's not a problem in itself
11:05:09 [hsivonen]
anne: are there dependencies that apply in parent-child configurations or ancestor-descendant?
11:05:20 [anne]
yeah, that too I guess
11:05:23 [zcorpan_]
you'd want content models, and the aria-* attributes would depend on the actual role (which is not just the value of the role="" attrubute)
11:05:25 [anne]
listbox and listitem and such
11:05:26 [hsivonen]
anne: constraining attributes within the element is doable
11:06:00 [anne]
oh right, the actual role needs to be extracted somehow
11:06:23 [zcorpan_]
yeah, i guess it's like microformats, but possibly more complex
11:06:49 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: hmmkay. I guess you either want to avoid RELAX NG or filter an intermediate language that moves the role to the element name. too bad that reverse mapping error messages would be so tedious that it is probably better not to use RNG
11:07:02 [anne]
hmm, Opera now has 12 people on the HTML WG :)
11:08:12 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: yeah
11:08:22 [hsivonen]
at some points an SGML old-timer will come along and tell us that ARIA and microformats are Architectural Forms reinvented badly.
11:08:53 [hsivonen]
CONCUR isn't far away, either
11:09:27 [zcorpan_]
the aria-foo and aaa:foo duality also makes it more ugly
11:10:01 [anne]
i still think we should get rid of aaa:foo
11:11:02 [hsivonen]
I suppose that eventually I will have to write a splitter that separates the ARIA tree that is overlaid on the HTML tree and does some custom magic with it
11:11:33 [anne]
if it's all going to happen, yes
11:14:02 [zcorpan_]
i think some role values should be dropped (i.e. ignored by uas), because they don't seem to solve any problem and makes processing (and integration in html) much more complex
11:14:27 [zcorpan_]
e.g. role="th"
11:14:45 [zcorpan_]
how does that integrate with the table header/data association algorithm?
11:15:04 [zcorpan_]
and can't authors use <th>?
11:15:44 [zcorpan_]
or is role="th" supposed to be used on divs when you don't want a table layout but table semantics?
11:15:54 [zcorpan_]
(since you can't style <table>s in ie)
11:17:41 [anne]
meh
11:18:24 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: I see another error message reverse mapping issue coming up. :-(
11:18:46 [hsivonen]
(table-integrity checking table models expressed as aria attributes)
11:18:57 [zcorpan_]
yeah
11:20:17 [hsivonen]
internally, my table integrity checker already operates on table-specific SAXish events instead of pure vocabulary agnostic SAX events
11:28:26 [hsivonen]
I guess it is good that I'm hitting more and more duplicate issues when I check the issue tracker before I send mail
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15:13:24 [anne]
zcorpan_, you forgot <img ismap>
15:14:44 [zcorpan_]
anne: you want <a href><img ismap></a>
15:14:58 [anne]
hmm, duh
15:15:17 [hsivonen]
in fact, <a href> is even *required* with ismap :-)
15:20:01 [anne]
plug: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/an-html5-style-google-suggest/
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17:43:50 [zcorpan_]
aha! http://www.w3.org/mid/18190.24017.963412.628088@retriever.corp.google.com
17:45:34 [shepazu]
interesting... that's a little different than a list of CURIEs with multiple values that should be honored
17:45:57 [zcorpan_]
indeed
17:46:24 [zcorpan_]
the fallback idea makes a lot of sense to me
17:46:35 [shepazu]
(though not incompatible with a list of CURIEs where the first one available is honored)
17:47:10 [shepazu]
honoring multiples, where one is a fallback for another, is tricker to negotiate
17:48:55 [shepazu]
so, role="fancyButton button listItem" is not clear... should button be a fallback for fancyButton? how can you tell they are related? should listItem be honored?
17:49:18 [shepazu]
can you have a fancyButton listItem?
17:49:43 [shepazu]
fallback and multiple inheritance may conflict... that needs to be resolved
17:49:52 [shepazu]
2 different goals
17:50:09 [shepazu]
could do multiple inheritance with nesting...
17:50:58 [shepazu]
it seems that in the Role spec, they decided that multiple inheritance was more important, but I wonder if they consciously excluded fallbacks?
17:51:05 [shepazu]
or if it was an oversight?
17:54:54 [zcorpan_]
not sure i follow
17:55:16 [billmason]
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17:55:39 [shepazu]
there are 2 different reasons you might have a list:
17:56:42 [shepazu]
1) you want to provide a list of alternatives (in fallback order)... "pick one that you support, then stop"
17:58:11 [shepazu]
2) you want to provide a list of all possible combinations (probably unordered)... "this is an dropdown and a tree and a checkbox control"
17:58:38 [shepazu]
your spec (and Raman's original proposal) were for 1)
17:58:49 [zcorpan_]
yeah, but my spec is not incompatible with 2
17:58:49 [shepazu]
the Role spec seems to indicate 2)
18:00:00 [zcorpan_]
"If token is a supported custom role *that is supposed to map to an accessibility API*, then return token and abort these steps."
18:00:38 [shepazu]
but if the UA doesn't know all the possible options, or if the options themselves don't have implicit relations, it can't know that it shouldn't combine 2 (one of which is meant as the fallback for the other)
18:01:08 [shepazu]
but the accessibility API might not be discrete (I could be wrong here)
18:01:19 [zcorpan_]
i don't see the problem
18:01:21 [shepazu]
maybe ARIA already breaks it down
18:01:27 [zcorpan_]
all unknown tokens would be ignored
18:01:52 [zcorpan_]
if the UA supports a custom role and it knows it maps to an accessibility API, then that is used
18:02:07 [shepazu]
but what if it does know both fancyButton and button, and they are mutually incompatible, and it tries to supply both?
18:02:21 [shepazu]
s/supply/apply/
18:02:35 [zcorpan_]
if it doesn't fancyButton then fancyButton is ignored
18:02:46 [shepazu]
right...
18:03:01 [shepazu]
what if it does know fancyButton?
18:03:09 [zcorpan_]
then it uses fancyButton
18:03:12 [shepazu]
*and* button?
18:03:14 [zcorpan_]
no
18:03:26 [shepazu]
then it's not compatible with (2)
18:03:38 [shepazu]
which is the Role spec (AFAICT)
18:03:41 [zcorpan_]
(2) can be implemented separately
18:03:53 [shepazu]
how?
18:04:09 [zcorpan_]
e.g. by processing the value a second time
18:04:22 [shepazu]
what if an element needs 2 different accessibility tokens?
18:04:23 [zcorpan_]
which ignores supported roles that map to accessibility API
18:04:35 [shepazu]
it's both a list and a checkbox
18:04:53 [zcorpan_]
use case?
18:04:59 [shepazu]
(that's a very common control)
18:05:12 [zcorpan_]
oh?
18:05:19 [shepazu]
it's available in dojo
18:05:26 [zcorpan_]
pointer?
18:05:29 [shepazu]
also, trees that are checkboxes
18:05:47 [zcorpan_]
not checkbox *in* a list or tree?
18:05:53 [shepazu]
I don't have a pointer, but I've used both of those
18:06:14 [shepazu]
ok, yeah... maybe nesting gets you that
18:06:34 [zcorpan_]
aiui, current accessibility API don't support multiple roles on the same object
18:06:44 [shepazu]
you may be right
18:06:53 [shepazu]
in which case, you're right, there's no problem
18:06:55 [shepazu]
:)
18:07:00 [zcorpan_]
:)
18:07:09 [shepazu]
(except that I'm starving atm)
18:07:12 [shepazu]
brb
18:12:12 [shepazu]
I'm not opposed at all to your approach, I just have to play devil's advocate to think things through, make sure we're not missing something
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19:05:42 [shepazu]
and when i reviewed ARIA a while back, it still seemed far away from implementation to me, so it was more abstract :)
19:20:18 [zcorpan_]
shepazu: about aria and schemas, we discussed that earlier; unfortunately it seems krijnh's logger was down then
19:20:52 [shepazu]
earlier today?
19:21:44 [zcorpan_]
yeah
19:22:08 [shepazu]
ok, I have it in my backlog
19:22:14 [shepazu]
thanks for the pointer
19:22:33 [shepazu]
bit busy atm, but I'll read it later
19:22:37 [zcorpan_]
ok
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21:14:11 [hendry]
how do I figure out Pacfic time in IRC I wonder
21:15:44 [Philip]
You could ask out loud in IRC and hope somebody responds who actually knows the answer to your question :-)
21:17:39 [Philip]
(If 4pm PT is 23:00Z then that's about 1.75 hours from now)
21:20:21 [kingryan]
2007-10-11T14:20:15 < pacific time
21:20:29 [kingryan]
s/</=/
21:22:28 [hendry]
I am wondering what the correct TZ code is
21:22:38 [Hixie]
PDT, at the moment
21:23:01 [Hixie]
iirc
21:23:11 [Hixie]
google and the web know the answers
21:23:35 [Hixie]
http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+san+francisco
21:24:11 [hendry]
nox:~% TZ=America/Los_Angeles date
21:24:11 [hendry]
Thu Oct 11 14:23:55 PDT 2007
21:24:11 [hendry]
nox:~% TZ=PDT date
21:24:12 [hendry]
Thu Oct 11 21:24:01 UTC 2007
21:24:27 [hendry]
I wonder why TZ=PDT date gives my UTC on my system. bleh
21:25:23 [Hixie]
clearly `uname` sucks.
21:26:06 [hendry]
it works on yours? :)
21:26:28 [Hixie]
which one?
21:26:59 [Hixie]
with four separate OSes
21:27:10 [hendry]
`TZ=PDT date`
21:27:23 [Hixie]
Thu Oct 11 21:27:18 PDT 2007
21:27:33 [Hixie]
Thu Oct 11 21:27:31 PDT 2007
21:27:47 [Hixie]
Thu Oct 11 21:27:42 PDT 2007
21:27:48 [Hixie]
and...
21:28:08 [Hixie]
Thu Oct 11 21:28:05 UTC 2007
21:28:52 [hendry]
last is the debian system?
21:29:01 [Hixie]
nope, last one was Darwin
21:29:08 [Hixie]
(specifically, 10.4)
21:29:33 [Hixie]
(it was the only one that wasn't running GNU date, too)
21:29:51 [Hixie]
so from this we learn that GNU sucks :-P
21:30:00 [Hixie]
and that "PDT" is clearly not the right value of TZ
21:30:32 [hendry]
eh? what's the correct code?
21:30:40 [Hixie]
no idea
21:30:41 [hendry]
PT?
21:31:35 [Hixie]
none of my machines have TZ set
21:31:53 [Hixie]
except one which _is_ in that timezone... it has TZ="UTC+0"
21:31:54 [Hixie]
-_-
21:32:14 [hendry]
-8 for Pacific http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_time
21:32:57 [Hixie]
my "datelocal" template in my ion3 config uses 'date +"%R PST"'
21:33:25 [Hixie]
which doesn't help us at all :-)
21:35:01 [hendry]
man, ion3 is bloatware, check http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm
21:37:44 [Hixie]
yeah i only run with like 1/10th of ion3's features
21:37:51 [Hixie]
i don't know what the devs were thinking
21:38:09 [Hixie]
(dwm has much the same problems)
21:38:39 [hsivonen]
it takes 10 dev for them all to run only a 10th :-)
21:38:42 [Hixie]
(and it doesn't support multihead, which is a blocker for me since my desktop is 2x24")
21:38:49 [hsivonen]
s/dev/devs/
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21:39:40 [Hixie]
lol. "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions."
21:40:23 [hsivonen]
but are the Debian packages? :-)
21:40:43 [hendry]
hsivonen: yes, it is packaged :)
21:40:50 [Hixie]
dwm looks ugly, sheesh
21:41:55 [hendry]
awesome is dwm with multihead http://awesome.naquadah.org/screenshots/
21:42:22 [hendry]
ok, what are your thoughts on content adaption?
21:42:33 [hendry]
have you seen what novarra and openwave do?
21:42:44 [Hixie]
(doesn't look anything like what i want my wm to look like, fwiw)
21:43:55 [Hixie]
content adaption? you mean like css media queries?
21:44:47 [hendry]
Hixie: no, like when they sit in the middle and blindly rewrite HTML for crappy mobile UAs
21:44:59 [hendry]
for e.g. http://natalian.org/archives/2007/10/09/mobile-web-monday/#comment-33580
21:45:15 [Hixie]
i guess it's an acceptable workaround to crappy mobile UAs
21:45:22 [Hixie]
seems better to just have decent mobile UAs
21:45:41 [Hixie]
if my iPod can have a decent browser that can handle GMail, i don't see why a phone can't
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21:45:56 [hendry]
yes, that's what I push for. better UAs
21:47:29 [hsivonen]
fwiw, the moment when I realized that the Maemo platform is for real was when I saw timeless do his Gmail bugmail on the Nokia 770
21:48:17 [hendry]
heh
21:48:38 [hsivonen]
OpenWave migth have happier users if their offering was an Opera Mini clone
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21:49:11 [hendry]
hsivonen: unfortunately their not in the browser market
21:49:29 [hendry]
s/their/they are
21:50:45 [hsivonen]
nn
21:51:27 [Hixie]
nn
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22:52:16 [anne]
Hixie, for <html manifest> how is that URI resolved? maybe there should be a note somewhere that <base> is not taken into account, but that xml:base is? because as I understand it this starts processing the moment you hit the start tag
22:52:49 [Hixie]
there is s such a note, actually, though it doesn't mention xml:base
22:52:54 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG teleconference 11 Oct 23:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )
22:53:09 [Zakim]
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22:53:12 [DanC]
Zakim, this will be HTML
22:53:12 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
22:53:49 [anne]
ah, I see now, duh
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22:57:59 [DanC]
agenda + Convene
22:58:11 [DanC]
agenda + next meeting, regular meeting times
22:58:18 [DanC]
agenda + toward release of Design Principles
22:58:26 [DanC]
agenda + Issue tracking
22:58:36 [DanC]
agenda + # Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design
22:58:46 [DanC]
agenda 5 = Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design
22:58:59 [DanC]
agenda + table headers
22:59:02 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
22:59:09 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
22:59:23 [DanC]
agenda + Name for XHTML serialization
22:59:35 [DanC]
agenda + face-to-face meeting 8-10 November
22:59:42 [DanC]
agenda + Forms Taskforce update
22:59:53 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmiata
22:59:54 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmiata
22:59:56 [Zakim]
+DanC
23:01:42 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
23:03:05 [Chris]
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23:03:34 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
23:03:43 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 1
23:03:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]
23:03:47 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
23:03:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmiata, DanC, Doug_Schepers, [Microsoft]
23:04:01 [Chris]
Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
23:04:01 [Zakim]
+Chris; got it
23:05:30 [DanC]
scribe: DanC
23:05:55 [DanC]
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html minutes 13 Sep
23:06:21 [DanC]
anne, do you know what Chaals is up to today?
23:07:12 [oedipus]
zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
23:07:12 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
23:07:39 [anne]
Not really. Apart from that there's a fifty-fifty chance he's on a plane :)
23:07:51 [Chris]
mjs, are you really there?
23:08:09 [mjs]
Chris: not on the phone I'm not
23:08:17 [oedipus]
or waiting for a plane
23:08:19 [mjs]
on IRC I am only here enough to answer questions briefly if needed
23:08:27 [DanC]
that works for me, mjs
23:08:44 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:08:44 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up [from DanC]
23:09:21 [DanC]
DanC: how about Thu, 25 Oct 1500Z?
23:10:34 [DanC]
... or 1400Z, but hard-stop at 1hr
23:11:18 [DanC]
ok, next meeting 25 Oct 1400Z
23:11:21 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:11:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
23:11:56 [DanC]
mjs, what news on universal design/accessibility? do you have pending edits, or have you done what you have in mind to do?
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23:12:42 [DanC]
rather: next meeting Thu 18 Oct 1400Z 12p Chicago
23:12:46 [mjs]
DanC: I have a pending edit in mind, probably will be free to do it come Monday
23:13:03 [mjs]
my only remaining distraction/excuse is doing performance reviews for my staff at Apple which will be complete Monday
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23:13:36 [DanC]
ChrisW: yes, I'm Ok to chair 25 Oct at 4p PT
23:14:19 [DanC]
ChrisW: given that we're not picking up many Asia/OZ participants, maybe I'll look into switching my slot.
23:14:42 [OedipusWrecked]
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23:15:05 [DanC]
ACTION: Maciej to finish editng pass based on pending comments, e.g. from survey of 2007-08-16 to 2007-08-23 [CONTINUES]
23:16:19 [DanC]
DanC: we seem to go in fits and starts, but I guess that's life
23:16:32 [DanC]
ChrisW: I'm making progress on getting more IE team members involved.
23:17:32 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item face
23:17:32 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "face-to-face meeting 8-10 November" taken up [from DanC]
23:17:54 [DanC]
ChrisW: wow... they weren't kidding when they said hotel prices would go up.
23:18:14 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
23:18:17 [OedipusWrecked]
GJR: registered
23:18:18 [Chris]
has everyone who plans on coming to the WG meeting registered?
23:18:26 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html
23:19:28 [DanC]
DanC: we seem to have a large room reserved; maybe split, yeah.
23:19:36 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
23:20:06 [Hixie]
btw, i'm still of the opinion that we should tell our "observers" that as a completely open working group we don't accept observers, but that they are welcome to participate, even if they don't actually talk :-)
23:20:14 [OedipusWrecked]
trying to organize task force f2f outside of the "normal" meeting hours, as all WG f2fs are meeting at the same time
23:20:38 [Hixie]
(or that there is no distinction between "observer" and "participant" or some other such phrasing that encourages them to give us feedback)
23:20:51 [Hixie]
(and for "them" to become "us")
23:22:12 [DanC]
"200# # indicates Classroom seating only" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/overview.html
23:23:13 [mjs]
I haven't registered but probably I and possibly one or two other people from Apple will be there
23:23:36 [OedipusWrecked]
mjs: registration open until the 19th
23:23:41 [DanC]
DanC: shall I notify observers? or shall we wait a week? let's wait a week; registration doesn't close 'till 19th
23:24:13 [DanC]
ChrisW: go ahead if you wanna do it sooner
23:24:30 [Chris]
mjs - travel (particularly hotels) are getting tight, if you haven't already set it up.
23:24:51 [Chris]
(I registered for hotel today, and it was between a $79/night room and a $550/night room)
23:24:59 [Chris]
(and it was 2mi away)
23:25:03 [DanC]
Zakim, close this item
23:25:03 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
23:25:04 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
23:25:05 [Zakim]
3. toward release of Design Principles [from DanC]
23:25:11 [DanC]
Zakim, close item 3
23:25:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3, toward release of Design Principles, closed
23:25:12 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
23:25:13 [Zakim]
4. Issue tracking [from DanC]
23:25:26 [mjs]
Chris, will deal w/ it soon
23:25:35 [DanC]
ChrisW: Dan, you and I should refine the agenda a bit.
23:25:37 [OedipusWrecked]
mjs: will there be another draft of the HDP before TPAC?
23:25:47 [mjs]
OedipusWrecked, I hope so
23:25:49 [DanC]
ChrisW: I'm flying in Monday PM
23:25:55 [OedipusWrecked]
mjs: good!
23:26:10 [DanC]
(I hope to get HDP to /TR/ by the TPAC)
23:26:18 [DanC]
Zakim, take up item 4
23:26:18 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Issue tracking" taken up [from DanC]
23:27:38 [billmason]
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23:28:03 [DanC]
ChrisW: I'm making progress on related stuff...
23:28:19 [DanC]
DanC: we can survive 'till the TPAC with our present issue tracking chaos, I guess
23:28:43 [DanC]
ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [WITHDRAWN]
23:29:24 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:29:24 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design" taken up
23:29:55 [DanC]
ChrisW: yes, I'm working with the IE team on our review...
23:30:10 [DanC]
... I'll have some stuff sent out prior to the ftf meeting.
23:30:36 [DanC]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
23:32:34 [DanC]
discussion of multimedia elements, IP/charter issues...
23:32:45 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:32:45 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "table headers" taken up [from DanC]
23:33:10 [OedipusWrecked]
ben millard has a proposed data table presentation
23:33:18 [OedipusWrecked]
yes
23:33:45 [OedipusWrecked]
i pinged him (since he mentioned me by name)
23:33:48 [DanC]
(if you have a pointer, bonus points)
23:34:04 [DanC]
DanC: this seems lower priority than ARIA. I haven't talked with Al G. lately about table headers.
23:34:16 [OedipusWrecked]
B.M.'s Data Table: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0074.html
23:34:40 [Chris]
Marc Silbey is our PF rep (or alternate, I can't remember)
23:34:44 [OedipusWrecked]
ARIA is on front burner due to march to LC
23:34:50 [DanC]
ChrisW: the timing of ARIA is interesting.
23:35:11 [OedipusWrecked]
PFWG: still working on and monitoring native HTML5 discussions
23:35:18 [Chris]
yes
23:35:27 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:35:27 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Name for XHTML serialization" taken up [from DanC]
23:36:12 [DanC]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
23:36:20 [DanC]
ChrisW: next HTCG telcon is when?
23:36:24 [DanC]
DanC: tomorrow. early.
23:37:46 [Chris]
1
23:37:48 [OedipusWrecked]
GJR: big impediment to advancing ARIA -- mime-type and namespacing issues; struggle between other, larger, groups
23:38:12 [DanC]
ChrisW: the mime type is related...
23:38:22 [DanC]
DanC: but narrowly, it's just the name.
23:38:31 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:38:31 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "Forms Taskforce update" taken up [from DanC]
23:38:48 [OedipusWrecked]
Task Force Report (3 parts): 1. first steps: organizational suggestion/proposal (27 September 2007)
23:38:52 [OedipusWrecked]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0004.html
23:38:56 [OedipusWrecked]
plan: 1) gain "official" access to a wiki in W3C space (suggested Forms wiki); 2) convene prior to the technical plenary in at least one teleconference; 3) discuss opportunities to meet and work during technical plenary week; 4) begin actually using the list that was expressly created for our use to coordinate all of the above.
23:39:01 [OedipusWrecked]
2. Anne van Kesteren: a charter proposal:
23:39:05 [OedipusWrecked]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Oct/0000.html
23:39:10 [OedipusWrecked]
3. Chris Lilley's Request to Gain the TF web access:
23:39:14 [OedipusWrecked]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Oct/0012.html
23:39:37 [OedipusWrecked]
positive reactions to charter, want to meet by phone if possible before TPAC
23:39:55 [OedipusWrecked]
CL msg 3 october
23:40:02 [OedipusWrecked]
yep
23:40:08 [DanC]
hmm. that's more than a day or two.
23:40:15 [OedipusWrecked]
good --thanks
23:40:31 [OedipusWrecked]
for a week it looked like we were going to get out of neutral
23:40:31 [DanC]
Zakim, next item
23:40:31 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC
23:41:47 [heycam`]
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23:42:43 [mjs]
I'm around
23:43:01 [mjs]
since we all seem to mostly like our draft charter, I'd love to get it approved soon
23:43:18 [OedipusWrecked]
me, too -- danC will raise at HTCG
23:43:27 [mjs]
and then discuss how to begin work based on the charter
23:43:36 [OedipusWrecked]
amen, brother
23:44:41 [OedipusWrecked]
mjs: do you think discussion on how to begin work should happen in a telecon?
23:45:15 [mjs]
OedipusWrecked: yes
23:45:27 [mjs]
I think we should have a telecon soon to formally adopt the charter and then discuss how to proceed
23:45:47 [Chris]
yes, I agree.
23:45:54 [OedipusWrecked]
mjs: we need to get our staff contact straightened out -- ChrisL asked sysreq for action on 3 october, but still no news
23:46:34 [OedipusWrecked]
danC: to whom should the forms task force address issues like getting bridge time?
23:46:59 [Chris]
Agenda items concluded, so we're closing the call
23:47:26 [Chris]
I think ChrisL is still the appropriate person, Oedipus, but Dan can kick sysreq too.
23:47:29 [DanC]
OedipusWrecked, see http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/TeleconferenceHowTo">http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/TeleconferenceHowTo in the collaborator's guide. http://www.w3.org/Guide/
23:47:41 [OedipusWrecked]
danC: ok -- thanks
23:47:46 [DanC]
actually, for teleconferences, the message goes to adminreq
23:47:50 [Chris]
ah
23:47:57 [OedipusWrecked]
ok -- this is good to know
23:48:33 [DanC]
it sounds like a 15 minute walk thru of the collaborator's guide might help the TF.
23:48:52 [DanC]
that is: a walk thru with one or two TF members
23:49:48 [OedipusWrecked]
danC: it would help alot - either setting up a time for 2 of us or so to talk to you, or you giving us 15 minutes of your time at our first telecon
23:50:15 [DanC]
I'd rather not get involved in the TF telcon scheduling
23:50:26 [DanC]
I can call you now if you like. I have 10 minutes or so
23:50:41 [OedipusWrecked]
ok, i have to find my phone, first
23:50:47 [Chris]
heh
23:51:11 [Chris]
Dan, do you want to call back in?
23:51:16 [DanC]
ok
23:51:19 [DanC]
Zakim, call DanC-BOS
23:51:19 [Zakim]
ok, DanC; the call is being made
23:51:21 [Zakim]
+DanC.a
23:51:38 [DanC]
Zakim, drop DanC
23:51:38 [Zakim]
DanC is being disconnected
23:51:40 [Zakim]
-DanC
23:55:35 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/groups
00:00:25 [Zakim]
-Chris
00:02:29 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
00:02:45 [Zakim]
-DanC.a
00:02:47 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
00:02:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Doug_Schepers, Chris, DanC.a
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09:15:13 [zcorpan_]
no BETA banner?
09:15:36 [anne]
thought about it, though about an HTML5 DOCTYPE too, but it seems better to remain conservative
09:25:26 [hsivonen]
anne: I guess that page is proof that author expectations of browser default style can change over time (image link border)
09:27:00 [anne]
heh
09:27:06 [hsivonen]
does IE put the border there? Opera and Safari don't.
09:27:12 [anne]
ok, I'll fix that and then I'm done with it
09:29:01 [zcorpan_]
firefox also puts a border there, it seems
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09:30:42 [anne]
fixed, also fixed wording
09:31:05 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: "also"? does that mean IE puts a border there, too?
09:31:31 [zcorpan_]
hsivonen: yes
09:31:47 [hsivonen]
zcorpan_: ok. then a Gecko change is harder to argue for
09:32:19 [hsivonen]
although I'd prefer Gecko not putting the border there
09:32:40 [zcorpan_]
well, everyone agrees that it's ugly, and if gecko change, it's just ie that makes pages ugly :)
09:32:50 [zcorpan_]
s/change/changes/
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09:53:21 [anne]
hsivonen, I think the Firefox guys might do weird stuff with IDness as well
09:53:29 [anne]
hsivonen, see the xml:id bug they got
09:55:53 [hsivonen]
anne: I think the length of that patch is a testament to the complication of xml:id
09:56:16 [hsivonen]
(also to unfortunate legacy assumptions in Gecko, I guess)
09:56:50 [anne]
would be nice if we just made id= work
09:57:01 [anne]
if there's indeed need for a global attribute
10:00:06 [hsivonen]
anne: I'm making it work in Validator.nu (both for built in schemas and for bring-your-own XPath)
10:06:05 [anne]
btw, xml:id is a perfect example of why the SVG WG contradicts itself
10:06:39 [anne]
they simply don't want not-in-a-namespace stuff, but rather have failed framework stuff like xlink:*, xml:id, etc.
10:07:09 [anne]
xml:id isn't compatible with vertical ASV markets either
10:07:17 [anne]
yet they introduced it anyway
10:07:23 [anne]
it's fricking silly
10:07:25 [hsivonen]
ASV?
10:07:33 [anne]
Adobe SVG Viewer
10:07:45 [anne]
Doug cited that in one of his e-mails
10:07:56 [anne]
as a reason not to use href= over xlink:href=
10:08:08 [hsivonen]
I'm not sure what vertical markets are in the case of ASV
10:08:33 [anne]
intranets that rely on SVG + ASV
10:08:34 [hsivonen]
ASV is end-of-lifed, isn't it, so anyone sharecropping on that market is going to get burned
10:08:54 [hsivonen]
ok
10:09:11 [anne]
yeah, the argument didn't sound too convincing to me either, but I guess some of it may be true given that Doug used to build such stuff
10:11:21 [anne]
id="" doesn't define an ID
10:11:28 [anne]
so it wouldn't match
10:11:48 [hsivonen]
anne: so the spec says
10:12:00 [hsivonen]
I guess it is time to write a test case to see if the reality agrees
10:12:29 [hsivonen]
FWIW, xml:id requires ID assigment on ""
10:12:42 [anne]
I think reality agrees
10:12:55 [krijnh]
anne: your Google Suggest article on dev.opera.com uses <option value="foo" /> inside a select.. Is that the correct way to do it?
10:13:01 [anne]
I believe Norman W. said that xml:id= didn't define an ID either
10:13:35 [hsivonen]
anne: should I take that as a normative reference overriding the xml:id spec?
10:14:01 [anne]
if the xml:id spec says otherwise I guess he changed his mind
10:15:14 [hsivonen]
his code is even more complex than mine
10:15:31 [hsivonen]
since his supports legacy JDKs and XML 1.1
10:20:45 [hsivonen]
hmm. I think his attribute value normalization code has a bug in case the source had escaped white space characters
10:21:35 [anne]
does that information even reach the xml:id processor?
10:23:07 [hsivonen]
heh. my test case crashed the java.net xml:id filter
10:24:16 [hsivonen]
anne: the xml:id processor sees the expanded string after escaping but escaped white space, IIRC, does not get normalized on the XML processor level
10:24:49 [hsivonen]
anne: so if the spec tells you to run the AVNormalize step again, you really should run it again for all white space--not just spaces
10:26:55 [hsivonen]
well, since the de facto reference impl crashes, I guess I can decide that I don't put "" in the ID map
10:27:56 [hsivonen]
java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 0 at net.java.dev.xmlidfilter.XMLIdFilter.checkNCName(Unknown Source)
10:30:07 [hsivonen]
I'm mildly amused that the crash was in the NCName check
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14:01:50 [DanC]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:01:50 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T14-01-50
14:02:43 [DanC]
odd!
14:03:40 [shepazu]
hsivonen, ping
14:04:29 [hsivonen]
shepazu: pong
14:05:21 [shepazu]
it's true that ASV is EOL'ed, but every so often, Adobe comes out with an announcement that they are pushing back the date because of customer demand
14:05:49 [hsivonen]
shepazu: ok
14:06:02 [hsivonen]
shepazu: is there any viable replacement for IE on Windows?
14:06:03 [shepazu]
I know several large shops that rely on it, including some departments of the US Gov't, and Fortune500 businesses
14:06:09 [Philip]
DanC: Is that possibly a continuation of the "RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight" from the Sep 13 meeting, and RRSAgent thinks that meeting is still going on and so it hasn't started a new log?
14:06:38 [shepazu]
hsivonen, you mean something to replace IE, or to replace ASV?
14:07:01 [DanC]
yup
14:07:08 [hsivonen]
shepazu: to replace ASV in IE in a way that leaves the usual kind of ASV-targeting content working
14:07:13 [DanC]
RRSAgent, bye
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 17 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-actions.rdf :
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [1]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T17-42-20
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [2]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T18-04-16
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [3]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T18-12-21
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [4]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-06-57
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [DONE] [5]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-07-46
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to reserve a bridge for this alternating schedule [DONE] [6]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-07-56
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [DONE] [7]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-08-03
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [DONE] [8]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-08-36
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [CONTINUES] [9]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-09-18
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [10]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-20-37
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris follow up with Karl about his comment on "support existing content" [11]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/31-html-wg-irc#T00-15-28
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [12]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-06-03
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN] [13]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-06-42
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES] [14]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-48-30
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Maciej to finish editng pass based on pending comments, e.g. from survey of 2007-08-16 to 2007-08-23 [CONTINUES] [15]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-15-05
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [WITHDRAWN] [16]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-28-43
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [17]
14:07:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-36-12
14:07:33 [shepazu]
anne, btw, that the SVG WG would contradict itself is completely normal.... it's made of individual who have their own opinions and agendas
14:08:00 [shepazu]
hsivonen: not quite yet, but there is a company working on it