00:02:17 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 00:26:05 Lachy has joined #html-wg 00:33:45 Lachy has joined #html-wg 00:44:27 aroben has joined #html-wg 00:45:08 aroben has joined #html-wg 01:15:07 dbaron has joined #html-wg 01:55:44 olivier has joined #html-wg 01:55:55 Zeros has joined #html-wg 02:03:53 Zeros_ has joined #html-wg 02:07:45 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 02:37:22 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 02:39:49 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 02:40:05 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 02:40:26 Lionheart has joined #html-wg 02:46:34 laplink has joined #html-wg 02:46:40 xover has joined #html-wg 02:53:43 aroben has joined #html-wg 02:56:03 aroben has joined #html-wg 02:58:48 robburns has joined #html-wg 03:06:14 marcos has joined #HTML-WG 03:09:14 Zeros_ has joined #html-wg 03:10:46 robburns has joined #html-wg 03:25:23 marcos has joined #HTML-WG 03:49:54 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 03:58:53 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 04:17:41 mjs has joined #html-wg 04:19:15 mjs has joined #html-wg 04:24:22 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 04:38:01 robburns has joined #html-wg 05:20:48 aroben_ has joined #html-wg 05:21:48 aroben has joined #html-wg 05:25:55 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 05:35:18 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 05:35:31 robburns has joined #html-wg 05:39:20 chaals has left #html-wg 05:58:35 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 07:49:11 heycam has joined #html-wg 07:50:15 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 08:16:48 hendry has joined #html-wg 08:17:40 Lachy has joined #html-wg 08:26:34 so what happens with publishing? 08:26:51 i thought we were supposed to publish the spec in august 08:27:42 chris wilson's review is still due, right? perhaps that? 08:29:17 zcorpan_, I updated update-markers.php with some code to commit changes to the DB. 08:29:52 it's not finished yet, it still needs a better UI for confirming changes and the code may need a little cleaning up 08:30:11 Lachy: great! 08:30:18 you can test it out http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate.html 08:30:46 that test just submits directly to the confirmation script, bypassing the confirmation email 08:31:30 "The changes have been confirmed," 08:31:33 ok 08:31:49 check this to see that the changes were made http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate-web-apps.php 08:32:48 yep 08:35:58 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 08:42:22 NickF has joined #html-wg 08:44:45 we were supposed to publish in june 08:45:36 Hixie: yeah, i meant last i heard 08:46:11 ah 08:46:34 (not that i think we need to publish anything) 08:46:53 (but if we want to publish something, it seems like it would be trivial to find something to publish and just put it out there) 08:50:07 i think chris wilson's review might be the cause 08:50:25 why? 08:50:36 it's not like i'm going to change the spec as soon as we get his review 08:50:45 it'll hit the queue just like everyone else's feedback 08:51:06 (though it sure will be nice to finally have a review from microsoft) 08:51:20 beowulf has joined #html-wg 09:35:35 jmb has joined #html-wg 09:42:44 zcorpan_ has left #html-wg 09:44:17 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 10:00:03 NickF has left #html-wg 10:15:12 jane has joined #html-wg 10:20:30 Sander has joined #html-wg 10:30:53 hasather has joined #html-wg 10:51:10 matt has joined #html-wg 11:12:27 myakura has joined #html-wg 11:14:42 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 11:24:44 heycam has joined #html-wg 11:33:43 anne has joined #html-wg 11:58:42 jmb has joined #html-wg 11:59:53 laplink has joined #html-wg 12:00:44 xover has joined #html-wg 12:30:01 matt has joined #html-wg 12:38:07 dbaron has joined #html-wg 12:50:42 tH has joined #html-wg 12:51:45 olivier has joined #html-wg 13:06:52 I have no special knowledge of html and I am really grateful that all of you work on making it better. 13:08:17 I want to promote a certain idea although I may not have the words to express it perfectly. You can understand the spirit of what I mean --- I want html to make typesetting mathematics as easy as putting a table on your page. Something like (some sort of math syntax) and it works. 13:09:50 bitcrumb has joined #html-wg 13:12:42 Lachy_ has joined #html-wg 13:17:58 emeriste: transferring MathML inside text/html is an open issue 13:19:55 hsivonen - By open issue you mean it's something that you are considering? 13:20:54 emeriste: yes. it has been proposed but not rejected. 13:20:57 anne -- I was talking to someone else in here about it few days ago, but I don't see them here now. 13:21:39 emeriste: lack of existing MathML buy-in from non-Mozilla vendors is a complicating factor considering getting two independent and interoperable implementations 13:21:46 hsivonen -- I cant think of anything more important. Given what the Internet is, and the fact that all mathematicians, teachers, and scientists use the internet, it is astounding that you cannot mark up math in a trivial way. 13:22:47 emeriste: math in high on complexity and low on money. :-( 13:23:46 hsivonen - mathML is probably fine. I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into it. All html has to do is recognize it between simple tags. 13:24:03 "simple" 13:24:26 Yeah I told you I'm naive about things but you can understand what I mean anyway. 13:24:38 actually, what I meant is that it's non-trivial to come up with a good solution 13:24:42 I quoted the wrong word 13:25:10 It should be 'rudimentary' html. Just like when you put a table on your web page. some instructions
13:25:27 some instructions (probably in mathML) 13:25:27 emeriste: there have been at least three proposed ways of doing this, but we haven't been actively been pursuing this as a WG 13:25:38 yeah, I agree it should be really simple if we do it 13:25:45 one might argue that politically the time is not right at the moment 13:26:05 The best time would have been 10 years ago. The second best time is now. :) 13:27:08 I don't understand namespace or mime or all that. I don't get why I need to use convoluted xhtml that takes me half a day to figure out. I'm sure there are reasons. I recognize my ignorance. 13:28:08 The Internet is THE medium for communicating ideas. That is all the more so for technical ideas like math and science. For you good people to make math easy to communicate over the Internet would be a singular contribution to humanity. 14:06:46 laplink has joined #html-wg 14:06:46 xover has joined #html-wg 14:22:04 Bob_le_Pointu has joined #html-wg 14:26:11 myakura has joined #html-wg 14:27:40 Dashimon has joined #html-wg 14:42:35 billmason has joined #html-wg 14:49:27 laplink has joined #html-wg 14:49:44 xover has joined #html-wg 14:49:47 anne, have you talked with mjs about design principles lately? 14:50:08 ah. hi mjs 14:50:13 hello DanC 14:51:06 still 1.4 Aug 16 at http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 14:51:09 any news since then? 14:51:58 I'd sure like to get a 1st WD done. 14:52:11 publish the spec :) 14:52:29 people pushed back on the diff document and asked for design principles, but now they seem more interested in @title and such. 14:52:53 I haven't had time to edit since then, but I will likely have time today 14:52:56 mjs, do you agree with anne that the design principles shouldn't be top priority? 14:53:36 DanC: I'd most like to see a 1st WD of the actual spec, but it would probably be harder to get people to agree to that 14:54:06 (I agree it would be nice to publish the design principles though. Although when we initially wrote them up it was to explain some of the design rationale of HTML5 and then quickly turned into a rathole once exposed to public-html.) 14:54:21 on the other hand, I don't think there's anything we could publish that wouldn't cause at least some level of controversy 14:54:24 the amount of agreement I want/need for 1st WD decreases as time goes on. 14:55:06 anyway, my plan was to spend the rest of this morning processing design principles feedback, after I get to the office 14:55:12 (I'm also not sure what the big deal is, Working Drafts are sort of expected to contain bugs and things people might disagree with.) 14:55:13 I'm not really here, but it seems that the terms "Cowpaths" and "Real Problems" are problematic 14:55:30 aroben has joined #html-wg 14:55:35 I would like to at least add an intro, and recast some of the principles where the names have spawned vast amounts of confusion 14:55:55 the big deal is that not everybody has experience with the Working Draft process, and there's a lot of mistrust. 14:56:08 As I see it, "Solve Real Problems" means "Don't Reward Concern Trollish Behavior" and "No Architecture Astronautics" 14:56:16 mjs, there's a telcon scheduled for today at 4p Pacific time; anything you can do by then is golden. 14:56:37 I have meetings all afternoon but the rest of my morning is free 14:56:53 ok, I'll relay your regrets for the telcon 15:00:54 I'll send a status update sometime in the early afternoon (pacific time) 15:04:26 great. 15:06:18 By the way, I'm not sure if I should remain co-editor now that mjs is editing the document although I suppose I could make minor edits if requested... 15:08:21 I'd prefer to have someone available as backup at least 15:08:27 hmm... I'd like to have some redundancy.... 15:08:28 if you don't mind 15:09:20 sure 15:09:41 it's ok with me if you play mostly a back-up role, anne. I'll know not to expect you to know the up-to-the-minute status, defend the document against all comers, that sort of thing. 15:47:20 robburns has joined #html-wg 16:03:15 jane has joined #html-wg 16:03:35 polin8 has joined #html-wg 16:04:14 polin8 has joined #html-wg 16:12:20 aroben has joined #html-wg 16:31:15 mjs has joined #html-wg 16:33:34 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 17:23:20 Sander has joined #html-wg 17:35:21 tH_ has joined #html-wg 18:04:55 hober has joined #html-wg 18:30:48 kingryan has joined #html-wg 18:40:19 sierk has joined #html-wg 18:40:54 xover has joined #html-wg 18:41:00 laplink has joined #html-wg 18:41:07 sierk has left #html-wg 18:42:20 sierk has joined #html-wg 18:51:03 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 18:52:48 Lionheart has joined #html-wg 19:32:17 hendry has left #html-wg 19:44:22 Lionheart has left #html-wg 19:51:20 heycam has joined #html-wg 20:04:21 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 20:22:19 seems the TAG didn't reopen their MIME type issue... 20:22:27 oh well 20:24:33 (issue-24, fwiw) 20:27:28 ROBOd2 has joined #html-wg 20:36:23 Lachy_ has joined #html-wg 20:39:43 mjs has joined #html-wg 20:44:01 mjs, since a while there are links such as http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 20:44:48 anne: oh, cool 20:47:22 Lachy_ has joined #html-wg 20:52:01 http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/vstudio/Aa700736.aspx in Opera outputs ' ' as plain text 20:52:20 but I can't tell whether they were trying to use namespaces in HTML, or in actual real XML, and can't tell why it works in Firefox but not Opera 20:58:17 Thezilch has joined #html-wg 20:59:53 jane has joined #html-wg 21:03:00 that's because we support Ah - by "support", do you mean "parse stupidly"? ;-) 21:04:31 something that goes for treating it differently from a bogus comment 21:04:45 xover has joined #html-wg 21:05:32 I rewrote http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html#support-existing-content 21:05:36 further comments welcome 21:07:52 Philip, first example I've seen where supporting Hmm, Opera 9.5 still does nonsensically 21:09:42 mjs: I'm not sure you can start a sentence with "or" (at least it doesn't read well to me although I don't doubt that someone will point out that it's allowed per some supposed spec. for English grammar. However it's a very very minor point and not worth worrying about) 21:09:57 Apart from that it looks great 21:11:28 jgraham: you can start a sentence with "and" or "but", so I think it's ok 21:12:07 isn't starting a sentence with a conjunction a major point of debate among English language scholars? :) 21:12:32 mjs: I'm just saying it fails the "acceptability test" for this native speaker 21:12:54 gavin: It is. But I don't care. 21:13:00 me neither! 21:13:57 actually, striking the "Or," makes it read better anyway 21:14:20 gavin_: I thought people had got past that and people just went with "do people fluent in the language think it's OK". Of course there are disagreements between different fluent speakers 21:14:56 Or, you can just say that "or" is ok to use in stylistic situations. :-) 21:15:23 I changed it because the word was unhelpful 21:15:30 Philip, yeah, no point improving it... we should probably remove support for it though 21:35:15 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 21:43:36 jane has joined #html-wg 22:04:45 jane has joined #html-wg 22:07:33 bogi has joined #html-wg 22:09:31 jmb has joined #html-wg 22:09:56 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 22:12:44 mjs has joined #html-wg 22:31:35 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 22:34:50 heh, the default "G" icon for the firefox search box is stored as a data:image/x-icon;base64, but it's a gif 22:46:26 tH: they're all x-icon, because our image guesser is good enough that it didn't matter 22:48:00 oedipus has joined #html-wg 22:48:27 gavin_: yeah, i just stuck a return at the top of the guessing function to see what broke and that was the first thing i noticed :) 22:49:04 ah, ok :) 22:49:51 Zakim, what conference? 22:49:51 I don't understand your question, DanC. 22:49:53 polin8 has joined #html-wg 22:49:55 Zakim, what conference is this? 22:49:55 no conference has been selected, DanC 22:50:00 Zakim, this will be html 22:50:00 ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 22:51:03 agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z 22:52:51 agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following 22:54:03 Zakim, passcode 22:54:03 I don't understand 'passcode', Lachy 22:54:08 agenda + Forms draft status 22:54:10 Zakim, passcode? 22:54:10 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC 22:54:10 Zakim, passcode? 22:54:12 the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Lachy 22:55:58 I think Chris W is chairing today, but I'm not quite sure 22:56:45 agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict 22:57:00 oops... agenda has leftover stuff 22:57:03 Zakim, clear agenda 22:57:03 agenda cleared 22:57:07 agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z 22:57:12 agenda + Design Principles, DNRtW and following 22:57:13 HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started 22:57:17 agenda + Forms draft status 22:57:20 +??P2 22:57:23 agenda + US/EU telcon time conflict 22:57:24 Zakim, I am ??P2 22:57:24 +Lachy; got it 22:57:31 +DanC 22:57:39 RRSAgent, pointer? 22:57:39 See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T22-57-39 22:58:08 Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile 22:58:08 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made 22:58:10 +Mike 22:58:25 +Gregory_Rosmaita 22:58:47 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 22:58:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 22:59:06 RRSAgent, make log public 22:59:28 Zakim, agenda? 22:59:28 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 22:59:29 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC] 22:59:31 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC] 22:59:32 3. Forms draft status [from DanC] 22:59:33 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC] 22:59:36 oedipus - well, hoping you might volunteer 23:00:04 i was going to 23:00:08 i will 23:00:10 hober has joined #html-wg 23:00:15 scribenick: oedipus 23:00:16 agenda + Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 23:00:24 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita 23:00:49 Zakim, take up item 1 23:00:49 agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC] 23:00:53 Regrets: mjs 23:01:02 zakim, mute me 23:01:02 sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 23:01:11 zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita 23:01:11 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted 23:01:27 Cba 23:01:33 Chair: DanC 23:01:39 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 23:02:15 just wanted to make clearer verbiage about backwards compatibility especially targetted for i18n, a11y and device independence 23:02:31 zakim, unmute me 23:02:31 sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 23:02:37 zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita 23:02:37 Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted 23:03:15 zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita 23:03:15 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted 23:04:06 Meeting: HTML WG phone conference 23:04:24 agenda + thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec 23:04:40 Zakim, I am Gregory_Rosmaita 23:04:40 ok, oedipus, I now associate you with Gregory_Rosmaita 23:05:00 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 23:05:36 agenda + Issue Tracking 23:05:47 Topic: Agenda Additions? 23:06:03 ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] 23:06:34 by way of agenda review, looking at actions from last time 23:06:42 ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN] 23:06:58 -Lachy 23:06:59 ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg 23:07:08 oh no, I dropped out :-( 23:07:22 on purpose? 23:07:46 no, it was some connection error 23:07:47 DanC: 5 minutes into meeting time -- any remaining agenda requests? 23:07:50 +??P2 23:07:55 Zakim, I am ??P2 23:07:55 +Lachy; got it 23:08:19 or did the office move eat you up, Chris? 23:08:25 yes, working on it. 23:09:45 agenda + usability testing video 23:10:05 + +1.206.528.aaaa - is perhaps Chris_Wilson? 23:10:21 Zakim, agenda? 23:10:21 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 23:10:23 1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z [from DanC] 23:10:25 2. Design Principles, DNRtW and following [from DanC] 23:10:27 3. Forms draft status [from DanC] 23:10:29 4. US/EU telcon time conflict [from DanC] 23:10:31 5. Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07 [from DanC] 23:10:32 6. thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec [from DanC] 23:10:33 7. Issue Tracking [from DanC] 23:10:34 8. usability testing video [from DanC] 23:10:44 Zakim, +1.206.528.aaaa is me 23:10:44 sorry, ChrisWilson, I do not recognize a party named '+1.206.528.aaaa' 23:10:55 Zakim, aaaa is ChrisWilson 23:10:55 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 23:11:42 DC: will chair due to ChrisW's being inconvenienced by his move 23:11:45 Zakim, next item 23:11:45 agendum 2. "Design Principles, DNRtW and following" taken up [from DanC] 23:11:52 Thanks, Dan 23:12:04 progress http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 1.8 $ of $Date: 2007-09-13 21:14:39 23:12:11 and recent mail from mjs 23:12:25 DC: abstract status intro and first 2 principles 23:12:29 CW: reading mail 23:13:00 DC: happy talked about what is supposed to be produced and what browsers should be expected to eat -- need to repeat -- people not hearing it 23:13:15 DC: pick up on survey input on do not break the web? 23:13:18 CW: yes 23:13:26 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results 23:13:38 Zakim, who's on the phone? 23:13:38 On the phone I see DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), Lachy, Chris_Wilson? 23:14:43 DC: negative responses to question: "depends upon quality of wheel..." "disagree without comment" 23:15:11 CW: consider specifying that technology i think covers it; open to discussion of solution editable 23:15:32 DC: anyone think of better example 23:16:02 CW: content editable implementations differ, wouldn't automatically accept 23:16:17 DC: would take a lot of screen real estate for a good pertient example 23:16:19 Perhaps we should change the example to not imply that we're automatically accepting contenteditable 23:17:20 DC: "not clear what a widely used..." -- a lot is people basically saying "depends upon wheel" 23:18:02 CW: not automatically accept the wheel -- agree to disagree -- general case, if wheel already there, consider that feature over reinventing something new, unless demonstratively better 23:18:26 DC: no actionable feedback in Do Not Reinvent the Wheel 23:18:44 DC: 5 strongly disagree with 23:18:49 my plan for that principle was to retitle it to "Consider Existing Implementations" or something like that 23:19:04 or "Adopt Some De Facto Standards" 23:19:10 DC: comments express a lot of distrust; principles are just principles 23:19:38 so it's clear that it is a suggestion, not a mandate 23:19:41 DC: [reviews negative answers] 23:19:49 DC: laura suggests dropping it 23:20:07 proposed rewording of pave the cowpaths here http://www.w3.org/mid/46C0A255.7080407@lachy.id.au 23:20:08 CW: earlier recasting of 3.3 23:20:13 DC: good point 23:20:24 CW: doesn't add a whole lot to explicitly have in there 23:20:42 CW: lightning rod -- cowpaths redundant 23:20:43 -Lachy 23:20:48 DC: agree 23:21:04 Dropped again? 23:21:18 and for "Pave the Cowpaths" something like "Study Authoring Practices" 23:21:21 +??P0 23:21:29 Zakim, I am ??P0 23:21:29 +Lachy; got it 23:21:39 people say things like "we shouldn't pave this cowpath", but it's hard to argue that "we shouldn't study this authoring practice" 23:21:45 mjs, is Cowpaths redundant w.r.t. "... invent the wheel"? 23:22:05 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xenr 23:22:09 DC: evolution not revolution 23:22:19 DanC, they are meant to be corresponding principles for existing nonstandard implementation features and existing practices in content 23:22:24 disagrees from Jason White - "this is redundant" 23:22:41 [[ I suggest to change the principle to "Promote progressive design" ]] 23:22:42 DC: [reviews disagreements] 23:22:51 cowpaths isn't redundant. cowpaths is more about use cases, the wheel is more about actual implemented features 23:22:52 q+ to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements regardless of how we word such design principles 23:22:52 DC: promote progressive design 23:23:09 DC: "words but not subtext" ?!?! 23:23:09 Side note - I think "and content will live longer" should be struck from the Evolution not Revolution principle. It's tangential 23:23:19 DC: another promote progressive design 23:23:34 DC: solve real problems 23:23:51 q? 23:24:18 DC asks when we can publish this 23:24:18 DC: don't want to continue review; when should we publish this thing? negotiate internally about heartbeat requirements, and don't mind if take a little longer 23:24:35 LH: edit and pass before WG with deadline 23:24:42 s/don't want to/a little too tired to/ 23:24:56 I think I can significantly improve it and reduce likely controversy in the next week or so 23:25:06 DanC: yes, after mjs finishes the pass he's engaged in, I'm inclined to publish 23:25:14 mjs, care to give an ETA? something like 2 weeks? 23:25:25 DanC, I think 2 weeks is a good FPWD target 23:25:37 thanks 23:25:54 DC: that's all i need on DP for today 23:26:42 LH: general comment -- IRC rewording these and a number of people disagree -- make specific suggestions, not comments like "like wording but not subtext" 23:27:05 Zakim, who is talking? 23:27:18 Lachy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 23:27:53 LH: real world wording -- cliches or truisms; using them as shorthand -- fundamentally opposed to wording, do so on point and suggest something constructive -- better 23:28:10 s/LH:/MikeSmith:/ 23:28:20 Zakim, next item 23:28:20 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC 23:28:25 ack MikeSmith 23:28:25 MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that some disagree comments amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to have a certain number of such disagreements 23:28:28 ... regardless of how we word such design principles 23:28:30 Zakim, next item 23:28:31 agendum 3. "Forms draft status" taken up [from DanC] 23:28:55 DC: gregory's asked question once or twice -- chris lilley here so can answer 23:29:11 DC: looks in archive for CL's answer to query 23:29:15 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0002.html Re: Web Forms 2 - version clarification, please? Chris Lilley 23:29:33 DC: W3C Working Draft of august 2006 23:29:40 -Gregory_Rosmaita 23:30:17 +Gregory_Rosmaita 23:30:57 DC: to update TR/webforms some working group needs to publish 23:31:09 DC: this group could, but not right now 23:31:22 -Lachy 23:31:23 GJR: that's why we are tasked to charter and scope 23:31:47 http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html 23:31:54 DC: october 2006 draft could be pushed to TR 23:32:00 DC: differences are trivial 23:32:10 DC: mostly editorial, since august 23:32:43 DC: want to go over so that no one left concerned 23:32:53 DC: business of forms task force itself 23:33:02 GJR: maciej on IRC 23:33:14 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/20070913231706.GB4724@mikesmith 23:33:52 GJR: one of the things i thought might speed was to work on a wiki so not lost in deluge of email 23:34:32 Lachy has joined #html-wg 23:34:36 GJR: ChrisL amenable to idea, but don't know upon which wiki to work 23:34:48 DC: move to migrate mediawiki 23:34:58 +??P0 23:35:01 Zakim, I am ??P0 23:35:01 +Lachy; got it 23:35:35 DC: don't think grass going to necessarily greener on different wiki 23:35:49 GJR: forms WG have wiki 23:36:10 DC: ESW wiki fine by me; new wiki straight forward (but not strongly encouraged) 23:36:49 Lachy: HTML wiki could swallow it -- easy to get lost 23:37:04 [I agree that mediawiki would bring a new set of problems; but Rotan Hanrahan (who's quite familiar with both Mediawiki and MoinMoin) is convinced that Mediawiki causes much less pain 23:37:15 DC: system team working on it; 22 wikis and don't want to give mediawiki to one until can get to all 23:37:31 DC: email and try a teleconference in meantime 23:37:53 oedipus, I said: ESW wiki doesn't have talk pages, that causes discussion to get mixed into the articles and difficult to follow and edit 23:37:59 DC: forms task force not stuck on anything in particular 23:38:04 Zakim, next item 23:38:04 agendum 4. "US/EU telcon time conflict" taken up [from DanC] 23:38:35 Topic: Meeting Times 23:39:04 DC: want to move US time 2 hours earlier on alternate 23:39:11 CW: could do at 9 23:39:22 DC: would have to leave for conflict meeting 23:39:25 (thats 1 hour earlier) 23:39:33 I wonder if it would be possible to merge the ESW wiki and whatwg wiki, and then mirror it on both w3 and whatwg.org? 23:39:36 heycam has joined #html-wg 23:39:37 DC: not available to chair on 27 september 23:39:47 DC: ChrisW can you chair on that date 23:40:02 CW: going to be on the road -- in fact, conflicts with keynote speech 23:40:19 DC: could chair the day after -- 21 september -- a friday 23:40:27 GJR: what time 23:40:30 Fri Sep 21 at 1pET? 23:41:01 1700 UTC 23:41:29 Lachy: that sounds like a lot of pain for little gain, but from the whatwg side i'm happy for you to do that if you think it's worth it 23:41:31 EDT is UTC -4 23:42:09 DC: reschedule or cancel meeting on 27 september -- could reschedule but would have to be a week later 23:42:14 Lachy, Hixie: mirroring could be in the form of a CNAME 23:42:20 PROPOSED: to meet 21 Sep Fri 1p Boston time, DanC to chair 23:42:25 (if w3c is ok with that) 23:42:26 I'll confirm by email 23:42:30 CW: first week of october 23:42:35 PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Sep 23:42:38 mjs: i'm sure they'd want different branding too 23:42:43 Zakim, next item 23:42:43 agendum 5. "Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07" taken up [from DanC] 23:43:00 TOPIC: November F2F Organization 23:43:20 DC: found middle ground between conferences -- announced that, so everyone should know 23:44:07 DC: on wednesday, plenary happening - have draft agenda -- there is a member tech plenary list -- suggest that whomever can get there 8 november for plenary; we convene after lunch on 9 september 23:44:31 DC: 17 registrants and a dozen or so requesting invited expert status 23:44:38 DC: broad representation 23:44:41 oh while we're talking abouth the plenary, i should announce in the interests of transparency and full disclosure that google will be funding james graham's attendance, and will probably be funding two other people though those details have yet to be finalised. 23:44:49 noted, hixie 23:44:51 DC: continue to meet through lunch saturday morning 23:45:11 Zakim, next item 23:45:11 agendum 6. "thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec" taken up [from DanC] 23:45:12 DC: anything else about F2F? 23:45:26 TOPIC: Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec 23:45:46 DC: detailed reviews coming in regularly; haven't done my audit of reviews in a while 23:45:52 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 23:46:06 ChrisW: microsoft review still delayed - not before beginning of next week 23:46:14 DC: how about before telecon 23:46:21 CW: on eve of sounds like good plan 23:46:33 DC: HTML5 spec going out at same time or after DP? 23:46:35 CW: after 23:46:38 GJR: after 23:46:46 Zakim, next item 23:46:46 agendum 7. "Issue Tracking" taken up [from DanC] 23:46:53 Topic: Issue Tracking 23:47:15 DC: Sam Ruby still not ready to jump in with both feet 23:47:52 DC: could use someone in this role; W3C still searching for permenant staff contact 23:47:58 DC: thoughts on triage team? 23:48:10 CW: ???? (couldn't hear) 23:48:16 DC: you want to keep the ball 23:48:18 CW: yes 23:48:25 DC: continue that action item, then 23:48:30 ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES] 23:48:51 Zakim, next item 23:48:51 agendum 8. "usability testing video" taken up [from DanC] 23:48:59 TOPIC: Usability Testing Video 23:49:13 DC: merits attention of entire WG 23:49:24 DC: [searches for pointer] 23:49:43 Lachy: Joshue who wrote 23:49:47 http://www.w3.org/mid/46DD6F27.6070608@cfit.ie 23:49:49 GJR: there is a wiki page with links 23:50:09 GJR: sliced into easily digestable portions 23:50:11 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html 23:50:12 From: Joshue O Connor 23:50:12 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:43:51 +0100 23:50:22 with links to videos such as http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/Table1.wmv 23:50:39 http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTesting 23:51:00 DC: common user task -- can you find price of OJ on web site, look at how many succed and how many fail 23:51:15 those videos are very interesting, i studied the header and longdesc ones in detail. has he updated the summary one yet? it used to be a dupe of the headers video. 23:51:18 DC: one video allowing person to editorialize -- did i look at wrong parts? 23:51:28 Lachy: rest similar 23:51:40 DC: useful, but not what i was expecting 23:51:48 GJR: guidelines for user testing? 23:51:57 DC: worth celebrating in any case 23:52:03 yeah you have to ignore joshue's comments as he editorialises :-) but the actual use parts are quite interesting 23:52:05 GJR: should we set some? 23:52:22 DC: cool that hixie really studying videos 23:52:36 Zakim, next item 23:52:36 I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC 23:52:52 good point, hixie. 23:52:53 DC: end of prepared agenda 23:53:04 yes, some videos is a whole lot better than no videos 23:53:09 i love studying them in detail 23:53:26 it's a goldmine of helpful guidance 23:53:40 * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise we might see no input at all 23:54:02 ADJOURN. 23:54:10 -Lachy 23:54:12 -Chris_Wilson? 23:54:27 oedipus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ logs the /mes, iirc 23:54:31 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 23:54:46 rrsagent, create minutes 23:54:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus 23:54:49 -DanC 23:54:53 rrsagent, format minutes 23:54:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus 23:54:59 -Gregory_Rosmaita 23:55:04 rrsagent, publish minutes 23:55:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus 23:55:38 Zakim, attendees? 23:55:38 I don't understand your question, DanC. 23:55:42 zakim, please part 23:55:42 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Lachy, DanC, Mike, Gregory_Rosmaita, +1.206.528.aaaa 23:55:42 Zakim has left #html-wg 23:55:43 Zakim, list participants 23:55:50 ok. 23:56:05 wierd... it didn't get ChrisW 23:56:23 strange 23:56:29 yeah, dunno why that 23:56:30 it's been acting strangely all week 23:56:51 Zakim going through adolescent rebellion? 23:57:11 check for zits -- that's the dead give-away 23:57:14 heh 23:57:20 RRSAgent, list participants 23:57:20 I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 23:57:59 thanks, MikeSmith , for mailing out the agenda 23:58:04 np 23:59:09 oh sweet it looks like joshue updated the summary="" video 00:14:14 robburns has joined #html-wg 00:17:02 waves back 00:17:22 the telecon just ended about 10-15 minutes ago 00:19:05 minutes: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html 00:19:16 IRC Log: http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc 00:20:51 oedipus: thanks, I thought I might have missed it. I've been away from the internet for a while so I wasn't even sure what time this one was being held 00:22:39 next meeting is scheduled for 1pm EDT / 1700 UTC Friday, 21 September 2007 00:23:17 PROPOSED: cancel 27 September call - reschedule possibly for first week of October 00:23:33 OK, thanks 00:24:09 I thought this meeting might have been a 1700 meeting, because the last one was 2300, wasn't it? 00:24:14 no problem -- helps to know in advance -- the october call would be the 7pm EDT/4pm PDT/ 00:25:24 oedipus - no biggy about Present list; I've added it now and trimmed the minutes and checked back in 00:25:26 the meetings are alternating between western and eastern hemisphere time slots; DanC does the american afternoon, while ChrisW chairs the alternate meeting 00:25:50 thanks MikeS - i don't have "permission(s)" to work that kinda magic in w3c space 00:27:33 robburns: so one meeting is at 1700 UTC while the other is at 2300 UTC 00:29:54 ooedipus: thanks for the info. bon appetit. 00:30:52 robburns: thanks - i AM off to cook that damn pasta, and take it from me, a listened-to pot of water doesn't boil any faster than a looked-at pot... 00:31:58 OEDIPUS: LOL 00:46:00 polin8 has joined #html-wg 00:54:31 olivier has joined #html-wg 01:08:21 hmm. in the summary attribute video, it's interesting how the bind user says he wouldn't miss it if HTML5 didn't include it, since he never uses it in practice, but then still says it might be useful without really explaining why 01:18:10 lachy - the user probably doesn't miss it due to lack of support for it; it is extremely useful than the alternative -- a simple X by Y (X equaling rows and y equaling columns) statement, which is what is presented to the user in the absence of a summary 01:20:37 there is a world of difference when one knows not merely how many rows and columns a table consists of, but what they are representative of -- i tried to explain/demonstrate this in the example at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ExplicitAssociationPatterns#head-27604d3fc1ffdb981a52a4144d36777d598016a2 01:21:10 oedipus, in practice, do you personally have the summary attribute read out when provided? And when provided, do you usually find it has a useful value? 01:21:25 yes, it is automatically read 01:21:57 i find it extremely useful when there aren't explicit bindings such as those provided by headers/id 01:22:19 it is also commonly used in a "list of tables on this page" dialog 01:22:33 otherwise, an AT will substitute the dimensions of a table 01:23:11 Does it hurt much when people use it non-usefully, like summary="Video Games, video games, video game reviews, video game rentals, video game, video game rental", or is it easy to ignore that kind of thing? 01:23:50 it at least tells me what is contained in an area of the document i'm about to traverse 01:24:07 matt has joined #html-wg 01:24:13 or to make a decision to skip or navigate the table 01:24:32 one learns to ignore spacer dot gif 01:25:06 (That was from http://www.gamefly.com/ps2/ where it's used three times on layout tables - I guess they're aiming for some SEO benefit) 01:25:07 and other annoyances -- the AT should have a setting to suppress such renderings or tailor them to the individual user's liking/need 01:25:41 I wonder if it would be possible for it to read out more useful information when summary has been omitted, such as the section heading or title attribute, or something else that would be more useful than the dimensions? 01:26:08 an AT will try and guess whether a table is a layout table or a data table, and one CAN instruct one's AT to avoid what it deems as a layout table 01:26:26 lachy: that's where aria markup enters the picture 01:33:35 I don't have much faith in the success of WAI ARIA. From what I've seen of it, it seems to be poorly engineered and overly complex for authors 01:35:36 for instance, the first example in the aria-role spec is using a span to implement a tri-state checkbox. I'd rather extend to support tri-states than hack around it with non-semantic spans 01:36:23 http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Example 01:38:10 Another example uses divs and CSS to build a collapsible tree view list http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role/#Exampletree - HTML5 solves that use case with datagrid 01:42:09 holy jeesus that's complex markup 01:42:49 i wonder what happens if one of those "wairole:treeitem"s was a "wairole:grid" 01:42:51 is that defined? 01:51:06 Mark P just wrote this http://blog.whatwg.org/the-longdesc-lottery 01:51:33 oedipus, I added a preview button for the blog comments (I know you complained about that before) 01:52:06 deredoce has joined #html-wg 01:55:08 Lachy: But HTML5 solves that use case by putting it into a decade-long specification project and requiring every UA to implement new features, which isn't helpful when somebody wants some other type of control and wants it working within the month 02:00:59 blog.whatwg.org should give the author of entries 02:02:26 heycam, I just fixed that. 02:02:40 it's another bug as a result of the wordpress upgrade 02:02:54 I accidentially replaced all the templates 02:04:00 cool 02:14:25 does anyone know how, in wordpress, to check if an author has a URL, and if so, link their name to it? It seems that the_author_url() function immediate prints it, rather than return a useful, testable value 02:14:39 jane has joined #html-wg 02:17:17 anne has joined #html-wg 02:18:06 gavin has joined #html-wg 02:36:42 polin8 has joined #html-wg 02:53:40 never mind, found what I was looking for http://codex.wordpress.org/Template_Tags/the_author_url 03:07:31 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 03:19:17 aroben has joined #html-wg 03:24:50 aroben has joined #html-wg 03:48:06 gavin has joined #html-wg 03:49:19 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 03:54:45 wow, ARIA Role is worse than I thought. It's a band-aid solution written from an ivory tower, seemingly without seriously considering any authoring issues. 03:55:32 (I'm fairly sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but oh well) 03:59:24 Lachy: can you name the accessibility experts you consulted before coming to that conclusion? 04:00:09 actually, I do think some sort of tagging system for accessibility roles is useful, if only because web applications will want to get ahead of what browsers support natively 04:00:25 but I think ARIA Role is not a very good approach to doing that 04:00:40 I reached my conclusion from reading the spec 04:01:37 Lachy: I was being needlessly sarcastic there 04:01:58 I know, but there are IRC log readers who might want the answer anyway 04:03:19 I agree with you, based also on reading the spec 04:03:50 although I think the intent is partly that JavaScript toolkit libraries will do all the heavy lifting, so the scope of authoring issues would be limited 04:03:56 BTW, wairole:grid is also addressed by 04:04:32 as far as i can tell, there isn't anything in wairole that isn't catered for by html5 04:04:55 (i used the wairole spec as a checklist a year ago or so and made sure) 04:05:17 tristate checkboxes? 04:05:43 unfortunately, we can't rely on javascript toolkits (or any other tools) saving authors from the complexity 04:06:05 oh right, tristate checkboxes were on the list for wf2 but got bumped to wf3 because i couldn't work out how to submit them neatly 04:06:30 Hixie, are they somewhere in the whatwg.org/issues/ list? 04:06:46 how do normal checkboxes submit? 04:07:13 when checked, they submit name=value. when unchecked, they submit nothing 04:07:14 lachy: they're probably in the big comment at the bottom of wf2's source 04:07:20 what lachy said 04:07:28 the third (indeterminate/mixed) state of tristate checkboxes is mainly useful as an initial state when a group has mixed state and can be toggled on and off as a whole 04:07:46 there's an easy solution (have a second name for the mixed state) but i don't really like that 04:08:00 mjs: yeah but you still have to distinguish between left-in-initial-state and unchecked vs checked 04:08:22 aroben has joined #html-wg 04:08:28 I'm not sure mixed state checkboxes should be submitted, since they're usually representative of a group of other checkboxes, and so their state can be determined by examining the state of the others 04:08:52 mixed-state checkboxes mainly seem useful for cases where check/uncheck will be handled by script 04:09:17 possible 04:09:26 what (if anything) they submit can't just be left unspecified 04:09:38 indeed. AFAIK, there is no way for a user to explicity set an individual checkbox to a mixed state in any UI I've seen. 04:09:40 but it's possible that not submitting (just like an unchecked one) might be workable 04:10:10 maybe not though 04:10:29 well we'll see 04:10:36 wf3 is a far future thing 04:10:51 and demand for tristate is low 04:11:13 the other alternative would be to introduce an attribute , where x=foo is submitted in the normal case and x=bar for the mixed case 04:11:35 I'm probably going to suggest form features for HTML5 that aren't part of WF2 at some point 04:11:54 but I don't know if tristate would be high on the list 04:12:18 mjs, are you or someone else from apple ever going to get around to providing details about placeholder=""? I recall that you once said someone would do so 04:12:51 Lachy: I will remind the relevant person when she gets back from vacation 04:13:01 ok 04:13:01 but I'm not sure there's a whole lot to say about it 04:13:21 is probably something that will actually need revision to be spec-worthy, and explication of current behavior 04:13:46 I think most of placeholder is fairly obvious, but in case there's some not-so-obvious detail about it 04:14:01 Lachy: yeah i suggested that easy solution above :-) 04:14:30 I don't think there is anything non-obvious about placeholder 04:15:29 placeholder will be done before wf3 i'm sure 04:15:45 one thing about tristate checkbox that would need to be addressed is that typically, when checking one, the states of the related group of checkboxes is usually toggled too. 04:16:28 it might be possible to come up with a nice solution for that in the context of datagrid at least 04:18:41 I think there's definitely controls that would be more useful than some of the half-dozen different date controls in WF2 04:19:06 but I will save it until the current forms stuff is integrated into the main spec 04:19:20 (presumably after the Forms Task Force finishes deciding what it is supposed to do and then doing it) 04:20:47 mjs, is the forms task force ever going to get started? 04:21:10 Lachy: we're waiting on the sixth person to give a sign of life 04:21:27 Lachy: there was some rumor that he might be on vacation 04:21:38 though I must admit so far it is the slowest-acting six-person group I have ever seen 04:22:09 hmm. there are 10 emails pending user approval for public-forms-tf. I can't see what they are though, I don't have permission for that. Maybe they're trying to send but can't? 04:22:49 I would assume that shouldn't happen for people who are on the list 04:24:06 yeah, unless "pending user approval" means that they haven't yet agreed to the W3C's email archive policy, which needs to be done before posts will go through on any list 04:27:38 Sebastian has been an XForms WG member for some time (and I think maybe also XHTML2 WG) 04:27:45 I'd be surprised if he hasn't sent any email 04:29:37 yeah, he has, I just checked, so that can't be the reason 04:47:35 the 10 mails "pending approval" are all spam 04:47:50 Dept.of Offshore Mortgage Services ! 04:47:55 Dearest Be Loved One 04:48:42 thanks olivier 04:49:01 etc etc 04:49:15 np 04:49:17 do they get automatically purged after a while? 04:50:10 yes, I think so 04:50:37 I think the people have a week following the initial challenge 04:53:03 the assumption being that if they send mail, they're around and aren't going to disappear for a week moments after sending their first mail to a list 05:01:22 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 05:06:21 mjs has joined #html-wg 05:50:21 marcos__ has joined #HTML-WG 05:50:45 Lachy has joined #html-wg 06:14:50 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:44:30 Sander has joined #html-wg 08:16:56 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 08:27:10 jane has joined #html-wg 08:50:31 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 08:53:51 gavin has joined #html-wg 09:01:50 hendry has joined #html-wg 09:03:47 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 09:15:18 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 10:08:50 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 10:34:11 anne has joined #html-wg 10:47:07 matt has joined #html-wg 11:35:42 DanC, the reason the Forms TF is not moving is described here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0003.html 11:38:45 anne, it might be a good idea to just get started without him for now or maybe ask the Forms WG to replace him 11:39:51 it's been nearly 3 weeks since the group began, that's enough waiting 11:40:33 we asked Septemeber 9, it's probably good to give it some more time 11:41:20 mjs asked for introductions on Aug 22 12:44:12 anne has left #html-wg 12:45:39 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 13:08:22 karl has joined #html-wg 13:08:55 karl has left #html-wg 13:33:22 hasather has joined #html-wg 13:33:34 matt has joined #html-wg 13:37:13 robburns, why are you choosing to blatently ignore information about actual user testing of longdesc that shows how it doesn't work in practice and users don't really benefit from it even when provided? 13:38:00 I'm referring to your response to Eric Eggert/Tomas Caspers 13:38:32 Lachy: I'm not ignoring any information. I just don't think the conclusion is based on any of the information provided. It must be based on something else, but that's not stated in the email. 13:39:11 you don't think the fact that *users don't even benefit from it* isn't evidence against it? 13:40:16 I don't see how you can reach any other conclusion, nor why you continue to hold on to faulty assumptions 13:42:50 Lachy: yes if you start from the assumption that "users don't even benefit from it" I can see how you get to the conclusion that we should eliminate it. However, I can't imagine how users wouldn't benefit from it in circumstances the require a long description. 13:43:32 I'm not starting with the assumption that they don't. I'm just not starting with the assumption that they do 13:43:48 If you're going to start from the assumption that "users don't benefit from it" and then say ergo we can eliminate the attribute, you might as well just start from the assumption "that we should eliminate the attribute" 13:44:39 Lachy: then how do you draw the conclusion that we have any evidence against retaining longdesc? 13:45:07 if you're not making that assumption I mean 13:46:35 1. authors rarely use it. 2. when they do, they often use it wrongly or redundantly (e.g. to the same page). 3. evidence from user testing (including both Joshue's video and Eric's email) suggests that real screen reader users don't make use of it, even when provided. 13:46:41 anne has joined #html-wg 13:47:20 what exactly is your case for longdesc? 13:47:57 from what I've read, it's basically that we should including it with the hope that UAs will implement it better, authors will use it better and users will start to benefit from it then. 13:48:20 that approach is just absurd 13:48:42 1. it doesn't matter how often authors use it. 2. it isn't redundant if it's required for browser fallback that don't support it. 3. you cannot interpret user testing to generalize that no user for any site don't make use of it (those users didn't for those sites) 13:49:17 see, that's what I mean about *blatently ignoring evidence*! 13:49:27 UAs implementing it better is absurd? Or authors using it better? 13:49:44 which evidence am I ignoring? 13:50:45 no, the assumption that UAs can or will implement it better and that users will start using it better is absurd. It's theoretically possible for either of those to happen, but there's no evidence to suggest that it will 13:51:31 you're ignoring evidence of author usage, UA support and the lack of usability. That's pretty much everything! 13:51:38 Lachy: there's no more evidence to suggest browsers will implement any of the HTML5 spec. We have to take that part on faith. 13:52:19 ah, no, there's plenty of evidence that UAs will implement many new features 13:52:23 No, I acknowledge all of that evidence. I just don't see how you can leap to the conclusions you leap to. There's an enormous disconnect between that evidence and what you conclude. 13:52:32 list some for which you think there is no evidence? 13:53:00 robburns, there's no counter evidence. I'm still waiting for you to present yours 13:53:17 Lachy: present my what? 13:53:25 your evidence in support of longdesc 13:56:02 How about this evidence: 1 blind people cannot see (stipulated). 2. images that convey critical content or the prime content for a webpage may require a lengthy and semantically rich description for those who cannot see the image 3) img is a void element and cannot contain such lengthy and semantically rich description. 4) longdesc is an attribute that takes an URL that can point to a semantically rich description of an image. 13:56:51 Sander has joined #html-wg 13:57:38 the first 3 are potential reasons to supply a long description, which I don't disagree with. Concluding that longdesc="" is the answer is what I disagree with. Longdesc is just one possible solution which has failed in reality 13:57:52 13:58:22 OK, but does that mean we're going to remove from the document conformance criteria? 13:58:43 why? seems to work fine 13:58:46 I agree that longdesc is just one possible solution. 13:59:54 anne: why not add several elements and require that they all work fine. We could have 1) , 2. , 3) , 4)... 13:59:56 Philip, see pm 14:00:07 robburns, I'm not sure how that's useful 14:00:32 works fine for authors today and they're used it and it's well implemented; why require the world to change here? 14:00:43 anne: that was my point 14:01:34 well, longdesc is not used by the world and since it was invented has been sparsely implemented 14:01:44 anne: the point is that you put forward to fix the short-comings of . If fixes those short-coming, then why do we need too. Once works finer than let's drop-kick 14:01:45 and when it's used it's mostly abused it seems 14:02:05 is more typing and doesn't work good in some browsers 14:02:10 we don't have much evidence of its abuse. 14:02:22 we have lots of statistics and people who have examined such pages 14:02:24 because is going to continue to be used and there's no reason to prevent that. Longdesc, on the other hand, doesn't get used and so it doesn't matter what happens to it. 14:02:26 wikipedia is a prime example 14:02:48 but it seems that you're not really willing to accept anything of that, so I'm not sure why I'm debating this with you... 14:03:08 anne: no wikipedia is not a prime example: at least not one to make your case. 14:03:20 tH_ has joined #html-wg 14:03:50 wikipedia has a small bug in that its longdesc doesn't point to the document fragment on the page where the long description occurs. 14:03:57 lol 14:04:13 you're just not being realistic here 14:04:35 but it's not a bug that the longdesc attribute points to the page with the long description and that there's also a link to bring authors to where they can edit that image, its long description, and its other metadata 14:05:05 anne: I have no idea what you mean by that. 14:05:17 how am I not being realistic? 14:05:42 real long descriptions generally don't occur on wikipedia image pages, it's generally just copyright information, file history and other metadata 14:06:23 but in wikipedia, longdesc is completely redundant given the pointing to the same page, which is equally usefull for everyone 14:07:20 Lachy: but wikipedia does provide a filed for long descriptions of images. And its not redundant because it provides different information to the UA. It just so happens for the wiki it needs to provide a mechanism for visistors to edit the information. 14:07:39 ... visitors to edit the information also 14:08:07 However, other than missing the fragment identifier I'd say MediaWiki is right on with their longdesc support. 14:08:40 wikipedia wouldn't lose anything at all by removing longdesc and setting alt="" on images in articles. , possibly with rel=longdesc, would be just as effective for end users and more effective in practice 14:08:44 MarkB has joined #html-wg 14:09:10 MarkB! 14:09:27 ho! 14:10:01 MarkB, you think the _technical_ architecture group should suggest UI enhancements for browsers? :) 14:10:11 Lachy: that could almost work for mediawiki. However, that approach would not work for any sight that wanted to provide a long description in a different location than the image link. So even for MediaWiki it would mean they couldn't fix the before mentioned bug of adding a fragment identifier. 14:10:35 just as an example, yah, i think it might help 14:11:04 hmm, for them to realize this is not realistic? 14:11:13 lol 14:11:39 no, for the browser vendors to realize that we're not asking you to halt-and-catch-fire 8-) 14:14:02 robburns, sites can provide an additional link adjacent to the image. e.g.
Caption... (read long description) 14:15:24 Lachy: sure they could, but why should they have to. Authors want more control over their document s than that. They want to indicate a link when they want a link and they want to indicate longdesc when they want longdesc. (with no link) 14:15:47 it's what many sites do in practice anyway 14:17:00 laplink has joined #html-wg 14:17:10 if they don't want the link visible for sighted users, they could always hide it with stylesheets. But in many cases, the long description is useful to more than just those with ATs that expose it 14:17:16 Lachy: well those authors would be free to continue doing that even if longdesc worked correctly 14:18:47 right. Which authors use longdesc in a useful way without providing a redundant link? I've seen very few sites that ever do that (only found 1 so far) 14:21:02 Well I've seen many examples. I think if it's a genuine longdesc — and it's not a wiki — then most authors would not want to provide a redundant link. I't s content not relevant for those who can fully consume the graphic directly. 14:26:59 robburns, there are, for example, low vision users who may not use a screen reader or other assistive, but may still benefit from the long description because they can't see image in great detail. But they could read the long description by magnifying the text 14:28:05 Lachy: yes I understand that use case. That's why I think we should require longdesc support for all UAs (without using a standard hyperlink) 14:29:07 well, in practice, that hasn't happened and you haven't presented any evidence that it will. As I said on the blog, if you can get UAs to implement it in a useful way and it can be demonstrated that it helps improve its usage, it could be included later 14:30:38 but until then, I don't think its worth considering longdesc="" as a viable solution. I think its dead. 14:35:03 billmason has joined #html-wg 14:36:51 Lachy: Why couldn't they just zoom in on the image? 14:37:38 they could, but it might be harder to comprehend the image if they can only see a small portion of it at a time. 14:38:09 I suppose colour blindness is a case where it can be useful to have a description of some images 14:39:14 (since you can't really use any technology to convert the image into an equivalent graphical form) 14:53:36 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 15:12:35 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 15:13:18 robburns has joined #html-wg 15:31:59 jane has joined #html-wg 15:38:11 myakura has joined #html-wg 15:53:03 jmb has joined #html-wg 15:55:52 rubys has joined #html-wg 16:00:31 tH_ has joined #html-wg 16:10:41 aroben has joined #html-wg 16:19:26 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 16:50:43 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 17:01:03 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 17:13:40 Lionheart has joined #html-wg 17:34:47 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 17:43:10 timbl has joined #html-wg 18:00:18 gavin has joined #html-wg 18:05:18 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 18:16:10 Lionhear1 has joined #html-wg 18:30:44 kingryan has joined #html-wg 19:08:52 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 19:17:54 robburns has joined #html-wg 20:21:58 robburns has joined #html-wg 20:29:56 hober has joined #html-wg 21:02:24 aroben_ has joined #html-wg 21:04:49 aroben has joined #html-wg 21:08:32 aroben_ has joined #html-wg 21:09:34 aroben_ has joined #html-wg 21:16:37 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 21:33:44 robburns_ has joined #html-wg 21:37:17 tH has joined #html-wg 22:18:39 robburns has joined #html-wg 22:38:25 jane has joined #html-wg 22:50:52 robburns has joined #html-wg 22:52:49 mjs has joined #html-wg 22:53:55 mjs has joined #html-wg 23:06:23 MarkB has joined #html-wg 23:15:57 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 23:24:05 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 23:57:37 robburns has joined #html-wg 00:23:03 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:32:33 timbl has joined #html-wg 01:05:01 robburns has joined #html-wg 01:09:04 heycam has joined #html-wg 01:09:18 mjs_ has joined #html-wg 01:32:02 Ryan has joined #html-wg 01:54:16 Lachy has joined #html-wg 02:42:48 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 02:55:50 Lachy has joined #html-wg 03:32:24 myakura has joined #html-wg 04:02:45 polin8 has joined #html-wg 04:26:53 Lionheart has joined #html-wg 04:33:20 Lionheart has left #html-wg 04:50:10 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 05:18:38 gavin has joined #html-wg 05:51:17 gavin has joined #html-wg 06:15:56 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 06:16:10 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 06:44:32 myakura has joined #html-wg 06:56:35 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 07:20:24 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 07:21:09 beowulf has joined #html-wg 07:22:04 gavin has joined #html-wg 07:24:54 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 07:48:53 mjs has joined #html-wg 07:53:08 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 07:54:50 Toolskyn88 has joined #html-wg 07:55:00 Toolskyn88 has left #html-wg 07:58:40 myakura has joined #html-wg 09:03:40 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 09:19:05 myakura has joined #html-wg 09:31:43 myakura has joined #html-wg 09:31:46 robburns has joined #html-wg 09:45:07 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 09:47:15 Dashiva has joined #html-wg 10:53:01 jmb has joined #html-wg 10:55:38 tH has joined #html-wg 11:11:22 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 11:17:56 Sander has joined #html-wg 11:34:47 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 11:37:10 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 11:38:20 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 11:53:27 dave has joined #html-wg 11:55:19 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 12:03:16 hasather has joined #html-wg 12:03:52 karl has joined #html-wg 12:08:08 me and Kaz Ashimura are now at the Mozilla 24 event in Tokyo 12:08:09 http://qwik.jp/mozilla24/2.html 12:25:27 ah cool MikeSmith 12:25:31 how is it going? 12:26:02 karl - going OK 12:26:12 listening to Keiki Ichikawa from Opera 12:26:52 no beer here 12:26:57 I was expecting beer 12:27:26 MikeSmith: opensource is not anymore what it was. ;) big business now. No more beers. 12:27:35 break a window and climb down the outside wall 12:27:58 hmmm that's an idea. We have seen spiders on wall, but not yet cows 12:29:38 Well, judging by the locale, it could be a ninja cow 12:30:04 kazuhito kidachi here too 12:30:12 ah cool. 12:31:05 kazuhito - kidachi-san: wondering if there is a direct way to connect to IRC for this event (rather than going through the Web-based thing) 12:32:40 no idea. and I can't tell you from Boston :p 12:42:23 mjs has joined #html-wg 12:48:23 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 13:11:05 karl has left #html-wg 13:30:16 MarkB has joined #html-wg 13:41:05 very entertaining interaction going on here at the Mozilla 24 event, between some Opera users and MSIE reps 14:14:47 timbl has joined #html-wg 14:33:11 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 15:34:55 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 15:44:33 dave has left #html-wg 16:09:26 jane has joined #html-wg 16:14:39 Thezilch has joined #html-wg 16:27:30 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 16:29:55 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 16:45:08 jane has joined #html-wg 17:23:07 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 17:26:01 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 18:04:35 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 18:13:37 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 18:22:57 Sander has joined #html-wg 18:42:31 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 19:04:15 karl has joined #html-wg 19:04:21 aroben has joined #html-wg 19:04:24 karl has left #html-wg 20:21:23 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 20:36:15 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 21:35:45 foca has joined #html-wg 21:35:51 sbuluf has joined #html-wg 21:35:54 foca has left #html-wg 21:38:56 foca has joined #html-wg 21:39:12 foca has left #html-wg 22:00:39 jane has joined #html-wg 22:21:16 jane has joined #html-wg 22:29:23 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 23:45:26 foca_ has joined #html-wg 23:45:32 foca_ has left #html-wg 23:57:20 mjs has joined #html-wg 00:36:32 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 01:50:54 polin8 has joined #html-wg 02:43:45 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 03:39:14 polin8 has joined #html-wg 04:51:47 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 06:58:25 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 07:59:56 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 08:00:15 myakura has joined #html-wg 09:05:34 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 10:14:03 hasather has joined #html-wg 10:38:49 tH has joined #html-wg 10:51:15 kazuhito has joined #html-wg 11:12:40 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 13:07:47 hasather has joined #html-wg 13:19:18 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 14:31:04 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 15:19:11 ah, I'm on dreamhost now... 15:27:17 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 15:34:07 jane has joined #html-wg 16:12:08 Sander has joined #html-wg 16:33:20 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 16:50:31 made new stuff finally work thanks to Lachy 17:27:29 jane has joined #html-wg 17:34:01 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 17:36:13 tH_ has joined #html-wg 17:42:40 jane has joined #html-wg 19:27:37 timbl has joined #html-wg 19:41:18 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 20:10:28 hsivonen, Philip, nested would only make sense if the fallback story of was indeed dependent upon some features, but it isn't 20:11:11 (well, we currently show fallback when ECMAScript or images are disabled iirc) 20:24:16 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 20:38:21 jane has joined #html-wg 20:41:06 anne: Since you can access the fallback content with scripts, it can still make sense to put more canvases inside the first canvas's fallback content since they might still be used somehow 21:03:41 Philip, yeah, I suppose 21:34:32 kingryan has joined #html-wg 21:48:15 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 21:50:27 Are there any new thoughts on making math easier to typeset with ordinary html? 21:50:44 dunno 21:51:02 I don't think all the data has changed much since last time 21:51:46 Anne -- Naively this is the way I think such things work: There is some standard for what the syntax should look like so that website makers and browser makers are on the same page . . . 21:52:28 anne -- Then, of various kinds are used to mark up pages so that browsers (or other things) can look at them and render it. 21:53:17 anne -- So what I think it should be, is that there should be tags. And between those tags you use some kind of syntax to describe the mathematical expressions to the browser. And then the browser simply draws what you have described. 21:53:25 Why does this have to be so hard? 21:54:27 because it needs to be integrated with MathML in a way that doesn't upset people and works well; and also because the same problem needs to be solved for SVG; and also because some people feel it should be solved for an x amount of potential languages 21:55:19 the solution should also be reasonably backwards compatible, easy to author, etc. 21:55:30 MathML would be the most likely way of 'describing' what you have in mind to the browser. In other words, it's a logical syntax to put between the tags (although in an ideal world, LaTeX would be even better, but I'm not picky). 21:55:31 on top of that there's not much interest in the subject apart from a few individuals 21:57:36 anyway, I should go to bed 21:57:47 anne -- (1) The Internet is the world's greatest vector for transmitting ideas. (2) No ideas are as powerful or affect life on earth as profoundly as scientific and mathematical ones. (3) It is a sin that html cannot facilitate the communication of mathematical ideas. (4) Anyone who solves this problem will be the Gutenburg of the new millenium. 21:58:19 People publishing scientific and mathematical ideas are happy using LaTeX and PDF 21:58:23 religion might haev something to say about (2) 21:58:29 and (3), probably 21:59:19 Philip - Yeah like people used to be happy with papyrus. 21:59:23 emeriste, I don't disagree with you that this problem needs solving, I'm just outlining the problem; expecting progress in days is way too optimistic; I'd check back in a year or so or lobby with browser vendors or something 22:01:58 I know this is a group of good people and I respect everyone here and all of their valuable and generous efforts. 22:02:31 emeriste: It seems the only particular problem with papyrus was that paper was cheaper 22:02:53 so I'm not quite sure how the analogy applies here 22:10:37 Philip -- I have in mind the difference between having monks with an esoteric skill set write out everything by hand, compared with some process that anyone can do. 22:50:48 heycam has joined #html-wg 22:52:57 heycam has joined #html-wg 23:08:16 hsivonen has joined #html-wg 23:22:34 http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - noooo! Opera still wins :-( 23:55:07 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 00:25:36 Safari 3 beta and Firefox 3 alpha both seem pretty close 00:27:49 I think Safari is not doing so bad considering that image data and some of the other newer features are completely unimplemented 00:29:59 It would be really nice if Safari did implement some of the newer features, so I could use getPixelData to determine pass/fail automatically instead of having to press the 'y'/'n' keys four hundred times :-p 00:31:40 But apart from that, all the implementations except ExplorerCanvas seem to be doing alright so far, so maybe there will actually be interoperable implementations in a few years :-) 00:32:06 I'd like to implement it, but one problem is that getPixelData doesn't support scaling the UI resolution 00:35:11 dbaron has joined #html-wg 01:20:16 Just out of curiosity who here work for Microsoft? 02:26:12 dbaron has joined #html-wg 03:00:23 myakura has joined #html-wg 03:19:26 Philip: what about Watir or the like? something that can control the browser and take screenshots 03:25:38 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 04:17:06 Lachy has joined #html-wg 04:31:20 marcos has joined #html-wg 05:04:43 jane has joined #html-wg 05:32:38 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 06:08:33 Lachy has joined #html-wg 07:07:54 drry_ has joined #HTML-WG 07:40:14 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 07:53:50 heycam has joined #html-wg 08:18:16 zcorpan_ has joined #html-wg 08:27:13 jgraham has joined #html-wg 08:28:08 timbl has joined #html-wg 08:50:12 ROBOd has joined #html-wg 09:47:43 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 10:40:55 olivier has joined #html-wg 11:07:47 Lionheart has joined #html-wg 11:40:45 timbl has joined #html-wg 11:42:42 jmb has joined #html-wg 11:55:29 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 12:14:11 laplink has joined #html-wg 12:40:27 Lionheart has left #html-wg 12:56:39 matt has joined #html-wg 13:36:54 hasather has joined #html-wg 13:49:34 tH_ has joined #html-wg 14:20:36 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 14:33:19 billmason has joined #html-wg 14:49:55 mjs, maybe it's better to point out that adding elements to is not really possible in text/html? 14:52:02 anne: depends on what you mean by "not really possible" 14:52:16 HTML5 does add some new elements that are allowed in 14:52:30 but you can't actually use them in if you want to target HTML4 UAs as well 14:52:34 well yes, empty elements 14:52:37 but using them outside will generally work fine 14:52:41 should degrade ok so long as they're empty or have an (r)cdata content model that can use the escaped text span hack 14:52:49 HTML5 adds at least one non-empty metadata element 14:52:57 oh 14:53:13 do you guys think WebKit should change to treat unknown elements in head as void elements? 14:53:30 no 14:54:13 that would make introducing new elements like
more complicated as you would have to write before it for compat reasons 14:54:26 (assuming we have actual HTML5 UAs) 14:56:02 it's more likely that new body elements will be introduced in the future than new head elements, and having unknown new head elements imply isn't so bad 14:57:54 ok then 15:16:49 karl has joined #html-wg 15:16:57 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 15:23:17 mjs: that metadata element would be