16:45:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:45:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc
16:48:13 <Lachy> DanC: what's the command to get the phone number from zakim?
16:49:18 <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
16:49:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
16:49:57 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG telcon 16 Aug 1700Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
16:51:18 <DanC> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16_formal
16:51:18 <Zakim> working on it, DanC
16:51:20 <Zakim> done reading agenda, DanC
16:51:25 <DanC> :-/
16:52:57 <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has now started
16:53:04 <Zakim> +??P0
16:53:20 <Lachy> Zakim: I am +??P0
16:53:43 <DanC> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16_formal
16:53:43 <Zakim> working on it, DanC
16:53:45 <Zakim> agenda+ Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z
16:53:47 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
16:53:48 <Zakim> agenda+ next meeting, regular meeting times
16:53:49 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
16:53:50 <Zakim> agenda+ toward release of Design Principles
16:53:51 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
16:53:52 <Zakim> agenda+ Detailed Spec Reviews
16:53:53 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
16:53:54 <Zakim> agenda+ table headers
16:53:55 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
16:53:56 <Zakim> agenda+ Name for XHTML serialization
16:53:57 <CarolKing> CarolKing has joined #html-wg
16:53:58 <Zakim> agendum 6 added
16:54:02 <Zakim> agenda+ Forms Taskforce
16:54:04 <Zakim> agendum 7 added
16:54:06 <Zakim> agenda+ face-to-face meeting 8-9 November
16:54:08 <Zakim> agendum 8 added
16:54:10 <Zakim> agenda+ Announcement mailing list, RSS feeds
16:54:12 <Zakim> agendum 9 added
16:54:14 <Zakim> agenda+ Wiki Migration
16:54:16 <Zakim> agendum 10 added
16:54:18 <Zakim> done reading agenda, DanC
16:54:45 <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
16:54:45 <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
16:54:57 <DanC> right; direct address is comma. colon is for attribution.
16:55:09 <Zakim> +DanC
16:58:45 <michael> michael has joined #html-wg
16:59:43 <michael> hello all
17:00:27 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #html-wg
17:00:54 <Zakim> + +1.312.933.aaaa
17:01:23 <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Rob_Burns
17:01:24 <Zakim> + +49.208.8.aabb
17:01:25 <Zakim> +Rob_Burns; got it
17:01:42 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
17:02:14 <DanC> Zakim, aabb Marcin_Hanclik
17:02:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb Marcin_Hanclik', DanC
17:02:16 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
17:02:16 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z" taken up
17:02:34 <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
17:02:34 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
17:02:52 <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0535.html
17:03:02 <oedipus> zakim, mute me
17:03:02 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:03:13 <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:03:13 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
17:03:38 <hsivonen> hmm. Skype isn't working :-(
17:03:55 <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Marcin_Hanclik
17:03:55 <Zakim> +Marcin_Hanclik; got it
17:04:14 <sierk> sierk has joined #html-wg
17:04:16 <Zakim> +Dave_Singer
17:04:53 <mausonio> mausonio has joined #html-wg
17:05:30 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:05:59 <robburns> robburns has joined #html-wg
17:06:28 <DanC> scribe: Lachy 
17:06:38 <DanC> regrets: Anne
17:07:25 <mausonio> hi all
17:08:22 <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
17:08:22 <Zakim> agendum 1, Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z, closed
17:08:23 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:24 <Zakim> 2. next meeting, regular meeting times
17:08:27 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 3
17:08:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up
17:08:46 <DanC> [DONE] ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles
17:09:29 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0617.html # HTML Design Principles Review Maciej Stachowiak (Thursday, 16 August) 
17:10:06 <Lachy> DanC, Maciej wants to start a review of the design principles, I want to ship the draft
17:10:13 <Lachy> DanC: Maciej wants to start a review of the design principles, I want to ship the draft
17:10:40 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #html-wg
17:10:42 <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0580.html # Re: Support for Design Principles (was: Design Principles survey delayed) Geoffrey Sneddon (Thursday, 16 August)
17:11:35 <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
17:11:35 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:11:47 <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:11:47 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
17:12:24 <maha> maha has joined #html-wg
17:12:30 <Lachy> Zakim, oedipus is Gregory_Rosmaita
17:12:30 <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not recognize a party named 'oedipus'
17:12:53 <DanC> ack greg
17:12:54 <oedipus> one concern is that rearranging the Proposed Design Principles will break a lot of link on the wiki, so we should procede with caution
17:13:02 <DanC> Zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:13:02 <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita was not muted, DanC
17:13:50 <Lachy> GR: If we accept mjs suggestion, the problem is that the references to the old proposals will be broken
17:14:36 <jgraham_> jgraham_ has joined #html-wg
17:14:46 <Lachy> GR: MoinMoin doesn't have ability to move wiki pages
17:14:54 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:16:06 <Chris> Chris has joined #html-wg
17:16:25 <DanC> Zakim, [Microsoft] is ChrisW
17:16:25 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
17:16:34 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 2
17:16:34 <Zakim> agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up
17:17:34 <Lachy> DanC: My thought is to have 2 separate times. One chaired by me, other by Cris
17:17:40 <Lachy> s/Cris/Chris/
17:18:32 <Lachy> Chris: I think bi-weekly meetings would be good
17:18:43 <Lachy> DanC: that's probably good enough
17:20:32 <dsinger> 2300Z is +6 from now...
17:20:42 <DanC> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=8&day=16&year=2007&p1=0&p2=137&p3=240&p4=-1
17:21:07 <Lachy> [discussion of new time for meeting]
17:22:24 <DanC> "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 14:00:00	Thu 7:00 AM *	Midnight Thu-Fri"
17:23:27 <DanC> my favorite: "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 23:00:00Z	Thu 4:00 PM *	Fri 9:00 AM"
17:25:16 <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Pacific.
17:25:31 <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 08:00:00 Friday in Asia/Tokyo
17:25:37 <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 09:00:00 Friday in Australia/Melbourne 
17:25:39 <Zakim> +??P11
17:25:46 <hsivonen> this is hsivonen
17:25:53 <DanC> Zakim, ??P11 hsivonen 
17:25:53 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P11 hsivonen', DanC
17:26:15 <Chris> Zakim, +??P11 hsivonen
17:26:15 <Zakim> I don't understand '+??P11 hsivonen', Chris
17:26:30 <DanC> Zakim, ??P11 is hsivonen 
17:26:30 <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
17:26:36 <Lachy> what's the difference between Pacific and Boston time zones?
17:26:46 <Chris> 3 hours.
17:27:33 <Chris> PST = UTC/GMT -7/8
17:27:34 <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Los Angeles
17:27:51 <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 04:30:00 Friday in Asia/Calcutta
17:28:00 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
17:28:11 <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
17:28:11 <Zakim> agendum 2, next meeting, regular meeting times, closed
17:28:12 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:28:14 <Zakim> 3. toward release of Design Principles
17:29:19 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:29:19 <Zakim> agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up
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17:29:51 <Lachy> DanC: I was going to do a survey about the design principles
17:30:17 <Lachy> DanC: Mjs finally sent a wrap up, which says "let's start over" - that's depressing
17:30:31 <Lachy> DanC: I was hoping we were 2/3 of the way through review process
17:30:45 <Lachy> DanC: Chris, have you read the summary from gsnedders?
17:30:49 <DanC> summary from sneddon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0580.html
17:30:50 <Lachy> Chris: I have not
17:31:04 <Lachy> DanC: I was hoping to publish the document in a week
17:32:21 <Lachy> Chris: mjs did not have a time frame for when the clean up would be done
17:32:35 <Lachy> Chris: I think we need a short time frame
17:33:23 <Lachy> Chris: we should have it out for reveiw within a week, then clean up and then agree within 2 weeks
17:34:31 <Lachy> Chris: we should respond to mjs and say we like the plan, we want to make sure we're at step 5 by next week.
17:34:47 <Lachy> DanC: let's review gsnedders message
17:35:42 <DanC> (I'm also opening http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples in another window, last edited 2007-08-16 12:26:51)
17:36:39 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:36:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Lachy, DanC, Rob_Burns, Marcin_Hanclik, Gregory_Rosmaita, Dave_Singer, ChrisW, hsivonen
17:37:16 <Lachy> RB: I thought the support existing content principle was fairly solid
17:38:12 <Lachy> DanC: I wonder what gsnedders means by how it's being implemented in "I've not to my knowledge heard anything against this, though there have been people questioning how it has been implemented."
17:39:19 <oedipus> the last comment on implmentation and HTML5 test suites for degrading gracefully was GJR
17:39:27 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
17:39:35 <oedipus> need practical not theoretical data
17:39:37 <Lachy> RB: I'm not sure he's changes to the Wheel principle made too much difference, I don't have any problems with it myself
17:39:47 <Lachy> s/he's/his/
17:40:23 <gsnedders> It may well be just how some things in the spec degrade.
17:40:37 <mjs> hi everyone
17:40:58 <Lachy> DanC: is the survey a cost effective way to proceed?
17:41:02 <gsnedders> I cannot find anything more specific than that, so I'm assuming that's all I meant.
17:41:04 <Lachy> Chris: how long to put it together?
17:41:52 <Lachy> Chris: [need to decide which principles are stable and finsish the survey with DanC]
17:42:20 <DanC> ACTION DanC: discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones
17:42:34 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:42:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Detailed Spec Reviews" taken up
17:42:38 <gsnedders> I expect even from survey the majority would have consensus
17:42:44 <oedipus> +1 from GJR to DanC & ChrisW's action item
17:43:38 <Lachy> DanC: What hasn't been done in the spec reviews? [checks wiki...]
17:45:27 <Lachy> Marcin: I have reviewed the media elements
17:45:43 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0280.html
17:46:27 <DanC> review from marcin http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/1191.html
17:47:26 <Lachy> is this it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0407.html ?
17:47:35 <mjs> fwiw I don't think a survey will be very helpful to improving the document, but I'll look over the results if there is one
17:48:02 <DanC> no reviews for Communications, no volunteers. hmm
17:48:49 <DanC> ChrisW: I'll make sure Communications gets covered
17:49:25 <dsinger> apple has some comments of detail on the video/audio tags coming in soon...
17:50:10 <oedipus> KarlD on SMIL3: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0407.html
17:50:27 <oedipus> Dave Singer on SMIL3: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0411.html
17:50:44 <dsinger> we considered the SMIL media tags when doing the proposal, obviously, but the needs are different in SMIL and HTML
17:51:11 <Lachy> DanC: I want to figure out when to publish
17:52:20 <Lachy> DanC: if we said something like 10 times as many yes, as no votes, that would be compelling
17:52:34 <Lachy> Chris: it would depend on the the type of formal objections
17:52:47 <Lachy> Chris: I expect there will be real objections
17:52:52 <Lachy> I expect them too!
17:53:16 <Lachy> DanC: we have to publish, we don't necessarily need 100% concensus
17:53:47 <gsnedders> As I said in my email, I concluded that I doubt we'll ever have consensus, but rather almost always dissent
17:53:54 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:53:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "table headers" taken up
17:54:48 <DanC> "We don't build fire stairs just enough to evacuate 80% of the occupants."
17:54:52 <DanC>  -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0145.html
17:57:29 <Lachy> DanC: Hixie said he intends to get to this in due course, but I would like to have a schedule
17:57:58 <hsivonen> q+
18:00:07 <DanC> ack hsivonen 
18:00:42 <Lachy> hsivonen: Hixie has implemented the implicit association algorithm, to anylise it's effectiveness
18:01:18 <oedipus> WAI PF Summary of goals for HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0903.html
18:01:22 <Lachy> hsivonen: the headers issue is a late comer in the first-come-first-serve queue, but he added a note to the draft about it being an open issue
18:01:28 <oedipus> quote To summarize, our goals for HTML 5 are as follow: (1) Support for issues highlighted in Table: 1 of the ARIA Roadmap; (2) Backward compatability to ARIA, including the role attribute. (3) Allow for full interoperability with assistive technologies; (4) A preference for access to accessibility information via the DOM; (5) reduced efforts by authors to support assistive technologies (6) Support for the access element or a version of it.  (7) Maintain equ
18:01:39 <oedipus> discussed in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
18:02:01 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:02:01 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Name for XHTML serialization" taken up
18:02:31 <Lachy> DanC: XHTML2 WG want us to change our name from XHTML, I haven't seen any justifaction
18:02:35 <Lachy> no
18:02:44 <Lachy> no justification
18:03:11 <hsivonen> q+
18:03:42 <Lachy> We should both just use the name XHTML, changing the name is counter productive
18:03:55 <DanC> ack hsivonen 
18:04:16 <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG
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18:04:47 <Lachy> hsivonen: The media type and namespace still need to contain "xhtml", so the name should also be XHTML
18:04:57 <DanC> DanC: yes, the namespace name is a bigger issue.
18:04:59 <oedipus> +1 on namespaces more important issue to address
18:05:13 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
18:05:13 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Forms Taskforce" taken up
18:06:12 <DanC> (14 volunteers currently at http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform )_
18:07:04 <Lachy> LH: I think it should include people who are very familiar with WF2
18:07:33 <Lachy> LH: I like Hixie, Anne, Mjs, Henri, Matthew Raymond
18:07:44 <Lachy> -1 John Boyer
18:08:22 <oedipus> GJR: john boyer may be one of the 3 from the Forms side
18:09:54 <oedipus> GJR: he may not be on the list, but what about asking TV Raman?
18:10:28 <oedipus> GJR: Raman has experience from both sides
18:10:34 <Lachy> DanC: what about Gregory, 
18:10:44 <Lachy> ... Anne and Mjs
18:11:21 <Lachy> ?: I think TV Raman would be an ideal person
18:12:21 <Lachy> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force
18:12:38 <Lachy> s/?/GR/
18:13:10 <hsivonen> Sander Tekelenburg is the active one
18:14:10 <Lachy> DanC: I suppose we could rotate task force members
18:15:15 <DanC> DanC: I'll fill in 2 (Anne, Maciej) and wait on the 3rd
18:15:19 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:15:19 <Zakim> agendum 8. "face-to-face meeting 8-9 November" taken up
18:17:26 <drry> drry has joined #HTML-WG
18:17:26 <DanC> "President's D  	66  	HTML  	 50  	 " -- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/overview.html
18:17:51 <Lachy> DanC: Hixie suggested an unconference style agenda
18:18:00 <Lachy> DanC: that's easier for me
18:19:14 <Lachy> ?: I would be comfortable with that for a while, but not the whole time
18:19:31 <Chris> "?" is ChrisWilson
18:19:40 <Lachy> s/?/Chris/
18:20:11 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:20:11 <Zakim> agendum 9. "Announcement mailing list, RSS feeds" taken up
18:20:26 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/
18:20:53 <Lachy> DanC: I still need to speak with chaals about how to operate the -announcements mailing list
18:21:49 <DanC> [CONTINUES] ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals
18:21:52 <Lachy> DanC: MikeSmith was going to write a summary of the CVS commit changes.  Has that happened?
18:21:58 <DanC> progress; still want to noodle with chaals
18:22:08 <Lachy> Chris: I haven't seen it.
18:22:20 <DanC> [CONTINUES] ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go
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18:23:18 <Lachy> DanC: Volunteers are welcome for writing up a summary of changes
18:23:38 <DanC> Zakim, next item
18:23:38 <Zakim> agendum 10. "Wiki Migration" taken up
18:23:53 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0488.html
18:24:11 <Lachy> DanC: I expect to migrate to MediaWiki, and I'm inclined to have a separate HTMLWG wiki
18:24:16 <Lachy> Chris: that seems like a good idea
18:24:39 <Lachy> why don't we just start using the WHATWG wiki?
18:24:40 <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
18:24:40 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:24:41 <Zakim> 10. Wiki Migration
18:24:45 <DanC> Zakim, close item 10
18:24:45 <Zakim> agendum 10, Wiki Migration, closed
18:24:46 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
18:25:04 <DanC> ADJOURN.
18:25:14 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
18:25:16 <Zakim> -Rob_Burns
18:25:16 <dsinger> cheers\
18:25:17 <hsivonen> advance regrets for Aug 30th
18:25:20 <Zakim> -Lachy
18:25:23 <Zakim> -Dave_Singer
18:25:24 <Zakim> -hsivonen
18:25:26 <Zakim> -Marcin_Hanclik
18:25:42 <DanC> bringing up http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/
18:29:27 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples?action=recall&rev=89
18:34:11 <Lachy> DanC: I definitely think pave the cowpaths should be included in the survey.  After I clarified its meaning, it didn't get much objection.  Only one person objected, who moved it to the wiki, but that was clearly due to a misunderstanding (see my response in the wiki)
18:34:27 <Lachy> *moved it to the disputed section
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18:49:42 <Zakim> -ChrisW
18:50:18 <Zakim> -DanC
18:50:20 <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has ended
18:50:22 <Zakim> Attendees were Lachy, DanC, +1.312.933.aaaa, +49.208.8.aabb, Rob_Burns, Gregory_Rosmaita, Marcin_Hanclik, Dave_Singer, ChrisW, hsivonen
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20:19:45 <Philip`> Oh, it's because http://www.w3.org/2007/04/wiki/modern/css/screen.css isn't served with a charset, and Opera ignores the charset from <link charset="utf-8" href="..."/>
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21:15:58 <mjs> hello DanC 
21:16:38 <DanC> somebody pointed out that there are lots of links to fragments of the ProposedDesignPrinciples document from other parts of the wiki. that gives me pause
21:19:26 <DanC> I wonder which people are more comfortable with the "it's a wiki; change it yourself" style vs the mail-changes-to-the-editor style.
21:20:00 <DanC> the mail-changes-to-the-editor style is more straightforward to manage, in some ways
21:21:16 <DanC> just to be arbitrary and capricious, I'll pick on you, kingryan . What do you think about design principles collaboration logistics at this point?
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21:24:01 <DanC> why are we debating whether alt is required under the subject "Baby Steps or Backwards Steps"? surely "mandating img/@alt" or some such would be better? or "cost-effectiveness of mandating alt attributes on img"
21:24:17 <gsnedders> I prefer the latter option (having an editor)
21:24:48 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #html-wg
21:25:29 <DanC> ok, good to know... any other preferences?
21:25:53 <johnst> johnst has joined #html-wg
21:26:08 <kingryan> DanC: for consensus building types of documents like that, it easier to have fewer editors
21:26:47 <kingryan> the "ETFW" approach (http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/) tends to work better when there's an objective answer to what should be on the page
21:26:50 <DanC> ok good. I like it when the universe offers consistent advice.
21:26:55 <kingryan> like wikipedia
21:27:30 <DanC> right; wiki works best when there's a consensus that just needs to be written down
21:29:05 <DanC> ok; Anne is on holiday, I gather. mjs, do you know when he gets back?
21:29:40 <Philip`> It seems that Wikipedia fails worst when there isn't an objective answer, and the same would apply to any wiki that doesn't have significantly different editorial rules or culture
21:30:06 <mjs> DanC: in meeting at the moment, will read scrollback later
21:30:19 <DanC> ah. ok.
21:30:31 <mjs> DanC:  (< 30 min)
21:30:44 <kingryan> DanC: fwiw, we've taken both approaches with the mf.org wiki
21:30:56 <kingryan> some areas are mostly "editor only"
21:31:05 <kingryan> while others are "anyone can edit"
21:32:46 <DanC> darn; new stuff there that I haven't seen. why isn't it on planet html5?
21:34:47 <hsivonen> considering disputes, I'd prefer to have mjs as a gatekeeper instead of anything goes wiki edits
21:35:11 <gavin> I agree
21:37:07 <DanC> hmm... "the block flow child invariant" ... I didn't realize that showed up in rendering code; that makes the HTML 5 constraint seem a little less arbitrary
21:40:47 <DanC> hmm.. "We use regression testing to maintain our compatibility gains." , plus Open Source in http://webkit.org/projects/goals.html . I wonder if we can make use of those tests for HTML WG work.
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21:50:24 <Philip`> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200708/the_html_5_circus_why_i_left_and_rejoined_the_w3c_html_working_group/ - "I think my energy will be best spent helping to produce documents that are useful to and readable by people who create websites" sounds good
21:51:11 <mjs> DanC: back
21:51:55 <mjs> DanC: the wiki style was good for brainstorming and initial development, but I think have editors helps in two ways:
21:52:19 <mjs> 1) it doesn't seem to fit well with the w3c process to turn a wiki page directly into a Working Group technical report
21:52:31 <mjs> 2) wikis are good for recording information, but not so good for resolving disputes
21:53:02 <mjs> DanC: but I am going to do my best to distill the contents of the wiki into usable feedback in any case
21:54:42 <DanC> but it seems like the time is now to put something at the top of the wiki page to say "this document is moving out of the wiki; please mail change requests to public-html@w3.org" or "... please see _a message about change requests_"
21:57:34 <DanC> the status of that document should have a pointer back to the wiki copy
21:58:19 <mjs> DanC: ok, I'll add cross-links
22:05:29 <DanC> ok, I updated http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ 
22:05:51 <DanC> somebody spot check it, please? mjs, gsnedders, ...?
22:06:14 <Hixie> doesn't let me see it
22:06:23 <DanC> weird. some people can and some can't
22:07:21 <mjs> DanC: looking (though I have another meeting momentarily)
22:07:52 <mjs> DanC: can't see it at the moment
22:09:05 <mjs_afk> DanC: it will come naturally - we are near the end of an OS release cycle
22:09:28 <DanC> famous last words, mjs ;-)
22:10:08 <DanC> try http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ again, hixie? I changed the dates so it's open now
22:11:40 <Hixie> DanC: the descriptions of "agree" and "disagree" sound the same
22:12:42 <DanC> if the suggested changes aren't made, agree stays agree but disagree stays disagree
22:12:53 <Hixie> DanC: otherwise seems fine
22:13:04 <Hixie> DanC: maybe make that clearer
22:13:17 <Hixie> DanC: as written, then sounded equivalent
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22:15:27 <karl> "11. priniciple "Baby Steps"
22:16:00 <karl> 14. priniciple "Handle Errors"
22:16:10 <jgraham> Agree should be something like agree with the spirit of the principle but with some changes to the wording
22:16:15 <jgraham> or something like that
22:16:57 <karl> ooops in fact 
22:17:12 <karl> it is a lot of them which are called priniciple instead of principle
22:18:12 <karl> danc in the intro, it is said what will be done if there is support, but not what will be done if no support at all.
22:20:15 <DanC> "Strongly Disagree = No support. Delete it."
22:21:21 <DanC> karl, I'd fix that typo if I could do it all at once, but I don't think I'm going to do umpteen form submissions
22:22:08 <DanC> actually, regarding what will be done with the survey results, nothing is guaranteed/binding: "This survey is a non-binding, informational-gathering excercise"
22:23:17 <karl> yes I have read the non-binding clause.
22:23:25 <karl> but I think it will be perceived as
22:23:42 <karl> not mandatory, but if support we might think of publishing it
22:24:18 <karl> not mandatory, but if NO support, we might…  hmm maybe publish it anyway? drop it? keep it on the wiki as non mandatory?
22:24:55 <karl> I say that because the principles are used (too often) as justifications in the discussions, that it makes them a sensitive topic.
22:26:51 <karl> brain still foggy I guess
22:27:07 <DanC> "too often"? hmm... their main utility is as justification in discussions. if they don't work that way, they should be dropped
22:27:33 <karl> :) yes too often for me ;) I will explain in the review I guess.
22:28:48 <karl> ooops time's up. Train time.
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22:35:40 <gsnedders> DanC: I better not spend two hours tomorrow morning doing WG stuff again
22:35:43 <gsnedders> :)
22:35:59 <DanC> that should teach you to claim things are "obvious" ;-)
22:36:18 <gsnedders> I expected it to take that long, though
22:36:30 <gsnedders> mainly just checking my thoughts were correct
22:36:32 <DanC> it was a helpful and timely summary
22:36:36 <gsnedders> (which, in all but one case, they were)
22:36:50 <gsnedders> what parts did you think were too generous?
22:49:06 <Hixie> where is "pave the cowpaths" in the survey?
22:51:37 <Philip`> "Universal Access"/"Separation of Concerns"/"Baby Steps" are inconsistent between survey and CVS too
22:52:01 <Hixie> yeah just noticed Universal Access missing
22:52:13 <Hixie> that's one of the most important
22:52:44 <DanC> somebody on the telcon thought one part was too generous. I don't remember which, gsnedders . And I haven't read enough mail to say.
22:54:03 <DanC> sorry about the problems in the survey; I'm struggling to stay in sync.
22:55:04 <DanC> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=HEAD#universal-access
22:57:48 <DanC> does cowpaths look right now?
23:00:45 <DanC> should I delete baby steps?
23:00:51 <DanC> it's not in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=HEAD
23:00:53 <DanC> I guess so...
23:02:44 <DanC> all better now?
23:03:56 <DanC> Philip`, Hixie ?
23:06:35 <Philip`> DanC: Looks like it all matches the CVS copy now
23:06:41 <DanC> tx
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23:39:35 <Philip`> DanC: Oops, I forgot to respond about the screen.css charset problem - I meant to say thanks for forwarding the issue
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23:58:33 <karl> done