16 Aug 2007


See also: IRC log


Jim_Allan, kford, JR, pparente, cklaws
Gregory, Rosmaita
Jim Allan




<scribe> Scribe: JR

1. review action items

KF to Update Guideline 2 of the wiki

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-minutes.html

KF: Wanted to talk about it before the wiki

JA: Talked about some of it last week
... Was an interesting discussion.

KF: Submission: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0054.html
... COnditional content refers to "can't show image so I'll show alt"
... But there are other guidelines about making sure keyboard accessibility is always available
... So at the end of the day if content author has mouse hovering text, what should the UA do?

2.3 Render COnditional COntent

KF: I don't know

JA: THis has been a theme...
... UA's don't give titles from keyboard, etc.

KF: So maybe there's nothing we can do - just proposing new way of thinking about cond. content

CL: Some of this info can be discovered

KF: SO do we want a rewuirment

JA: I see this rendering cond. content tied in with Peter's stuff - ability to toggle display of things...
... What happens when things turned off...
... So 3.3 is that things can be toggled...
... 2.3 is what to do if off

CL: User should be blae to config what they see and don't see.
... In HPR there was prefs re: titlle of abbr

KF: HPR plus other assistive techs adding more and more of these options

JA: But screen readers see things diff

CL: OK but if mainstream browsers don't show things, developers less likely to put them in

KF: Seems like 2.3 Render Cond needs more...maybe techniques...needs to be strengthened
... Maybe I have to come back with a proposal

JA: Right and it's really confusing

JR: Second that

CL: ALso title alt discrepancy comes u[
... Don't think we can be so specific about it in future

KF: Maybe a bit more detailed

CL: Of course you should get any alternative content

KF: Sounds like group agress change is needed

<scribe> ACTION: KF to Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action01]

KF: Other question from email...
... timing-independent actions guideline...
... When Charles CHen was here...
... Seemed like it had to be content author, rather than UA dealing with that.

JA: Hard to set live region specific controls
... e.g. titles not required for live regions (i.e. divs, spans)

CL: Really hard to know that title is even on a control

JA: Originally time indep interaction more to do with auto refresh and some for security things...
... But has just gotten much more complicated with AJAX


KF: Shouldn't this talk about conditional content
... If the view you are used to has this text, you should be able to search it.

JA: Can JAWS search for alt text?\

KF: Yes it can, it has a separate search
... Searches its own text view
... Prob comes up when UA search is used
... Highlighting for searched word would not be detected

CL: Right - so text views are quite different than what UA may be showing

All: Group agrees that yes cond. content should be searched.

JA: Just concerned about user without AT

CL: Happens when text is searched but CSS is hiding it
... But aren't displayed

JA: So do we need to define behaviour

CL: Well even if hidden it's still found
... Clarification - meant text is offscreen, not invisible

JA: So is there a configuration for this we could ask for...

CL: Maybe status line message?

JA: Live region implications?

JR: Would it find as well if a layer is under a layer?

PP: Firefox Find won't find display:none

CL: Descibes example of access keys shown off the visible screen
... This is happening because the base UAs don't put up list of access keys...browser does

KF: I could try and come up with some more proposals
... Cond. Content needs to include how to display, how to interact with and how to find etc.
... My goal is to get more actionable things to the list or wiki by next meeting

JA: Thanks Kelly
... ANy other groups we could write to...
... Reminds me about JAWS getting to CSS menu...but showed more than just what was going on

KF: Window eyes in some scenarios will show all hiddent content

JR to Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal about placeholders


KF: lloks ok

JA: Need definition of chrome...

JR: Got it from Barry at IBM

CL: It is is IBM-ese

KF: MS uses it

<scribe> ACTION: JR to Make Glossary section in Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action02]

CL: Put in link to real one, but only changed things in wiki

JA: Kelly, this might inform what you do in conditional content
... Placeholder is a type of conditional content


JA: Sent out my proposal
... Question about configuring...


CL,JA: Can only set by OS

JA: Would be good if tooltip affected by font size changer in browser
... What about colour

CL: But rendered by OS
... UAs could make their own tooltips
... But do we want that

JR: I made them larger, but can you change colour?

CL: Yes - in WindowsXP - Display Properties...Advanced
... IN HPR we added that dialog to the app
... You can call of those from the User Agent

JA: OK so don't have to dig for it.
... So is that a technique?

CL: Hard to make normative maybve

JA: So tech under?

CL: Maybe its a usability issue rather than compliance

JA: We will pick this up later

<AllanJ> JR: if user asks for extra large fonts in the browser, should make a call to OS to also change tooltip setting, but then applies to OS

<AllanJ> CL: gets confusing for the user

CL: And complicated by mult. browser windows etc

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: JR to Make Glossary section in Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: KF to Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2007/08/16 18:18:50 $

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Found Scribe: JR
Inferring ScribeNick: JR
Default Present: Jim_Allan, kford, JR, pparente, cklaws
Present: Jim_Allan kford JR pparente cklaws
Regrets: Gregory Rosmaita
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0061.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Aug 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: jr kf

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