16:44:03 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:44:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc 16:44:11 Zakim, this will be UAWG 16:44:11 ok, JR; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes 16:44:18 Meeting: WAI UA 16:44:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0061.html 16:44:54 Scribe: JR 16:45:04 Chair: Jim Allan 16:49:30 AllanJ has joined #ua 16:55:37 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:55:43 +Jim_Allan 16:56:28 KFord has joined #ua 16:57:17 +[Microsoft] 16:57:49 zakim, [Microsoft] is kford 16:57:49 +kford; got it 16:58:43 +??P3 16:58:56 zakim, ??P3 is really JR 16:58:56 +JR; got it 17:06:01 Topic: 1. review action items 17:06:13 Topic: KF to Update Guideline 2 of the wiki 17:06:15 http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-minutes.html 17:07:06 KF: Wanted to talk about it before the wiki 17:07:25 JA: Talked about some of it last week 17:07:36 Regrets: Gregory Rosmaita 17:08:09 JA: Was an interesting discussion. 17:08:50 KF: Submission: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0054.html 17:09:21 + +1.919.403.aaaa 17:09:54 zakim, +1.919.403.aaaa is really pparente 17:09:54 +pparente; got it 17:10:38 KF: COnditional content refers to "can't show image so I'll show alt" 17:10:51 +[IBM] 17:11:08 KF: But there are other guidelines about making sure keyboard accessibility is always available 17:11:32 cklaws has joined #ua 17:11:58 KF: So at the end of the day if content author has mouse hovering text, what should the UA do? 17:11:59 zakim, [IBM] cklaws 17:11:59 I don't understand '[IBM] cklaws', AllanJ 17:12:06 zakim, [IBM] is cklaws 17:12:06 +cklaws; got it 17:12:55 Topic: 2.3 Render COnditional COntent 17:13:09 KF: I don't know 17:13:19 JA: THis has been a theme... 17:13:43 JA: UA's don't give titles from keyboard, etc. 17:14:30 KF: So maybe there's nothing we can do - just proposing new way of thinking about cond. content 17:14:45 CL: Some of this info can be discovered 17:14:56 KF: SO do we want a rewuirment 17:15:25 JA: I see this rendering cond. content tied in with Peter's stuff - ability to toggle display of things... 17:15:43 JA: What happens when things turned off... 17:15:53 JA: So 3.3 is that things can be toggled... 17:16:01 JA: 2.3 is what to do if off 17:16:18 CL: User should be blae to config what they see and don't see. 17:16:37 CL: In HPR there was prefs re: titlle of abbr 17:17:15 KF: HPR plus other assistive techs adding more and more of these options 17:17:44 JA: But screen readers see things diff 17:18:11 CL: OK but if mainstream browsers don't show things, developers less likely to put them in 17:19:15 KF: Seems like 2.3 Render Cond needs more...maybe techniques...needs to be strengthened 17:19:26 KF: Maybe I have to come back with a proposal 17:19:44 JA: Right and it's really confusing 17:19:50 JR: Second that 17:20:03 CL: ALso title alt discrepancy comes u[ 17:20:19 CL: Don't think we can be so specific about it in future 17:20:38 KF: Maybe a bit more detailed 17:20:49 CL: Of course you should get any alternative content 17:21:08 KF: Sounds like group agress change is needed 17:21:41 Action KF: Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content 17:22:10 KF: Other question from email... 17:22:29 KF: timing-independent actions guideline... 17:22:52 KF: When Charles CHen was here... 17:23:15 KF: Seemed like it had to be content author, rather than UA dealing with that. 17:24:00 JA: Hard to set live region specific controls 17:24:50 JA: e.g. titles not required for live regions (i.e. divs, spans) 17:25:41 CL: Really hard to know that title is even on a control 17:26:19 JA: Originally time indep interaction more to do with auto refresh and some for security things... 17:26:34 JA: But has just gotten much more complicated with AJAX 17:26:52 Topic: Find/Search 17:27:07 KF: Shouldn't this talk about conditional content 17:27:35 KF: If the view you are used to has this text, you should be able to search it. 17:27:58 JA: Can JAWS search for alt text?\ 17:28:12 KF: Yes it can, it has a separate search 17:28:33 KF: Searches its own text view 17:29:34 KF: Prob comes up when UA search is used 17:30:01 KF: Highlighting for searched word would not be detected 17:31:06 CL: Right - so text views are quite different than what UA may be showing 17:31:39 All: Group agrees that yes cond. content should be searched. 17:32:07 JA: Just concerned about user without AT 17:32:25 CL: Happens when text is searched but CSS is hiding it 17:32:41 CL: But aren't displayed 17:33:14 JA: So do we need to define behaviour 17:33:38 CL: Well even if hidden it's still found 17:33:59 CL: Clarification - meant text is offscreen, not invisible 17:34:52 JA: So is there a configuration for this we could ask for... 17:35:01 CL: Maybe status line message? 17:35:58 JA: Live region implications? 17:36:17 JR: Would it find as well if a layer is under a layer? 17:36:49 PP: Firefox Find won't find display:none 17:38:12 CL: Descibes example of access keys shown off the visible screen 17:39:22 CL: This is happening because the base UAs don't put up list of access keys...browser does 17:39:36 KF: I could try and come up with some more proposals 17:40:13 KF: Cond. Content needs to include how to display, how to interact with and how to find etc. 17:40:52 KF: My goal is to get more actionable things to the list or wiki by next meeting 17:41:37 JA: Thanks Kelly 17:41:57 JA: ANy other groups we could write to... 17:44:29 JA: Reminds me about JAWS getting to CSS menu...but showed more than just what was going on 17:45:34 KF: Window eyes in some scenarios will show all hiddent content 17:46:17 Topic: JR to Reword normative inclusion #4 in Peter's proposal about placeholders 17:46:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0060.html 17:50:43 KF: lloks ok 17:50:51 JA: Need definition of chrome... 17:51:10 JR: Got it from Barry at IBM 17:51:31 CL: It is is IBM-ese 17:51:42 KF: MS uses it 17:52:14 Action JR: Make Glossary section in Wiki 17:52:38 CL: Put in link to real one, but only changed things in wiki 17:54:15 JA: Kelly, this might inform what you do in conditional content 17:54:41 JA: Placeholder is a type of conditional content 17:55:00 Topic: Tooltips 17:55:08 JA: Sent out my proposal 17:55:23 JA: Question about configuring... 17:55:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0047.html 17:56:01 CL,JA: Can only set by OS 17:56:29 JA: Would be good if tooltip affected by font size changer in browser 17:56:45 JA: What about colour 17:57:08 CL: But rendered by OS 17:57:22 CL: UAs could make their own tooltips 17:57:32 CL: But do we want that 17:58:22 JR: I made them larger, but can you change colour? 17:59:24 CL: Yes - in WindowsXP - Display Properties...Advanced 17:59:42 CL: IN HPR we added that dialog to the app 17:59:55 CL: You can call of those from the User Agent 18:00:18 JA: OK so don't have to dig for it. 18:00:48 JA: So is that a technique? 18:00:57 CL: Hard to make normative maybve 18:01:03 JA: So tech under? 18:01:25 CL: Maybe its a usability issue rather than compliance 18:02:35 -kford 18:02:37 JA: We will pick this up later 18:02:37 -cklaws 18:02:43 -pparente 18:02:50 JR: if user asks for extra large fonts in the browser, should make a call to OS to also change tooltip setting, but then applies to OS 18:03:05 CL: gets confusing for the user 18:03:11 CL: And complicated by mult. browser windows etc 18:13:06 -JR 18:13:08 -Jim_Allan 18:13:09 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:13:10 Attendees were Jim_Allan, kford, JR, pparente, cklaws 18:18:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 18:18:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html JR 18:18:52 RRSAgent, set logs public 18:19:12 Zakim, bye 18:19:12 Zakim has left #ua 18:19:17 RRSAgent, bye 18:19:17 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-actions.rdf : 18:19:17 ACTION: KF to Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content [1] 18:19:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc#T17-21-41 18:19:17 ACTION: JR to Make Glossary section in Wiki [2] 18:19:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-irc#T17-52-14