See also: IRC log
<jallan> * jim jr zakim and rrs invited, entered chair
CL: Some IBM people playing with Div's and SPAN's used to look like widgets.
JA: Bit of a different
issue...
... 3.1 is background image for the page not for indiv
objects
JR: CSS can be used to make real images
CL: Yes and that's what we are working with.
JR: I'm talking at full scale page, CL talking about discrete drawn objects looking like widgets
CL: Yes and with javascript used to control behaviour
JA: Maybe we need
clarification...
... Was thinking of full page...
... but could apply to paragraph etc.
JR: If backgrounds cleared on some "widgets" they will dissappear
CL: Also problem in high contrast
mode
... In those cases, images would have to be provided if people
had turned off css etc.
... And devs don't want to do that.
JA: WOW!
... Not what CSS intended...
CL: Yes but its coming.
... Prob a web content thing to solve...
<jallan> developers are leaving html objects behind, hacking the css, making things out of shapes and appling javascript to them
<jallan> jr: this may be more of an author problem.
JR: These things seem to be hacks - seems to be web content thing
CL: Well toolkits are trying to standardize these drawing techniques
JA: Widget set is like an API
CL: But they have not figured out the inside...
JA: So they aren't using SVG,
perhaps since not well implemented
... Scary for accessibility because popping in and out of
toolits
... Also not supporting OS level things like high
contrast
... Does make this a user agent problem
<jallan> jr: user agents should support the widget set when it becomes standardized
CL: DOJO is becoming well known, but other toolkits as well.
JA: And no unifying group?
CL: People didn't think style sheets would be used that way...
JA: On divs almost need titles
CL: Are doing that.
<jallan> jr: does css need to be a core technology.
<jallan> pp: but there is a still a need to turn off page level background images
<jallan> jr: user agent may need to be able to make somethings high contrast
<jallan> cl: through mark up?
JA: Or widgets need to wrapped in super-divs with new roles...
CL: Somewhat being done in the roadmap
DHTML roadmap
CL: Widgets son't usually have colours
<jallan> jr: e.g. high contrast user yellow forground black background, how does that translate to the widgets.
CL: So is this something that OS's have already done...
<jallan> jr: some want applications to run in the borwser. raster drawing wrapped in divs and become actional objects in the browser
CL: Will discuss more with Becky
JA: So we may need clarification in 3.1 - are we talking about page level background images...
CL: Right but unfortunately we already refer to CSS properties that could be done on element by element.
JA: JR had said how do you turn
of sound independent of video.
... But video with sound may have been handed off to embedded
player
<jallan> jr: we always come to the secondary player (pugins, objects, etc.)
<jallan> jr: are we at the point of saying a browser is conformant to html and x or y.
<jallan> jr: but if the browser cannot communicate with the plugins and allow control then it is not conformant
JA: As we dance around v1.1,
there is browser side and there is plugin side then there is
part where they need to talk
... Dream way back when was for conformance reports for all the
little plugin players
... Seems to be tied in to compound doc stuff...with all its
different layers
JA: To me this is confusing...since we say render as motionless then in examples we say turn off with escape
JR: Thinks this is implicit, but we should add explicit technique about having setting for that.
CL: Real problem is defn of
animation.
... Could be using Javascript, CSS
JA: Do mention animation in Techniques
oops: animation should have been Javascript
CL: Flash is definatelyu beyond
browsers control
... Javascript alone is limitless in ways to create
animation
... So are you changing the techs?
JA: Yes making changes to
non-normative techniques that could become a note.
... But we are having a problem that lots of issues coming up
are not solvable at techniques level when changes required to
notmative stuff
... Before Xmas, we worked with Roadmap, we thought things were
covered, but now seeing bigger holes.
CL: Don't know why Applets
included...
... ActiveX very Windows specific
... "Executable content includes scripts, applets, and ActiveX
controls. This checkpoint does not apply to plug-ins; they are
not part of content.
" is weird.
CL: THese things not in definition of content
JA: Applet defintion is weird..UA
doesn't execute applets, JVM does
... Otherwise must be able to toggle ActiveX controls, Java,
etc
CL" All these things are plugins
Aside: Bugzilla for Firefox development has UAAG bugs.
JA: Next week Techs fo Guideline 4.
JR: F2F?
JA: Could be useful for 1.1 planning or should we move ahead on techniques.
CL: Useful to talk to PF about the direction they want us go.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127 of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: JR Inferring Scribes: JR Default Present: [IBM], Jim_Allan, [IPcaller] Present: [IBM] Jim_Allan [IPcaller] Got date from IRC log name: 13 Jul 2006 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-ua-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]