17:43:49 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:43:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-ua-irc 17:44:00 chair: Jim Allan 17:57:22 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 17:57:29 +[IBM] 17:58:06 +Jim_Allan 17:59:04 JR has joined #ua 17:59:40 parente has joined #ua 17:59:43 * jim jr zakim and rrs invited, entered chair 18:01:17 +[IPcaller] 18:01:49 +[IBM.a] 18:02:12 cklaws has joined #ua 18:03:19 Meeting: WAI UA 18:03:43 Topic: 3.1 Toggle background images (P1) 18:04:39 CL: Some IBM people playing with Div's and SPAN's used to look like widgets. 18:05:03 JA: Bit of a different issue... 18:05:23 JA: 3.1 is background image for the page not for indiv objects 18:06:37 JR: CSS can be used to make real images 18:06:58 CL: Yes and that's what we are working with. 18:08:00 JR: I'm talking at full scale page, CL talking about discrete drawn objects looking like widgets 18:08:14 CL: Yes and with javascript used to control behaviour 18:08:39 JA: Maybe we need clarification... 18:08:46 JA: Was thinking of full page... 18:08:57 JA: but could apply to paragraph etc. 18:09:56 JR: If backgrounds cleared on some "widgets" they will dissappear 18:10:08 CL: Also problem in high contrast mode 18:11:01 CL: In those cases, images would have to be provided if people had turned off css etc. 18:11:13 CL: And devs don't want to do that. 18:12:10 JA: WOW! 18:12:25 JA: Not what CSS intended... 18:12:32 CL: Yes but its coming. 18:13:49 CL: Prob a web content thing to solve... 18:16:08 developers are leaving html objects behind, hacking the css, making things out of shapes and appling javascript to them 18:16:30 jr: this may be more of an author problem. 18:16:38 JR: These things seem to be hacks - seems to be web content thing 18:16:59 CL: Well toolkits are trying to standardize these drawing techniques 18:17:33 JA: Widget set is like an API 18:17:46 CL: But they have not figured out the inside... 18:18:06 JA: So they aren't using SVG, perhaps since not well implemented 18:18:46 JA: Scary for accessibility because popping in and out of toolits 18:19:28 JA: Also not supporting OS level things like high contrast 18:19:40 JA: Does make this a user agent problem 18:20:31 jr: user agents should support the widget set when it becomes standardized 18:20:59 CL: DOJO is becoming well known, but other toolkits as well. 18:21:18 JA: And no unifying group? 18:21:48 CL: People didn't think style sheets would be used that way... 18:22:02 JA: On divs almost need titles 18:22:11 CL: Are doing that. 18:23:43 jr: does css need to be a core technology. 18:24:16 pp: but there is a still a need to turn off page level background images 18:24:57 jr: user agent may need to be able to make somethings high contrast 18:25:06 cl: through mark up? 18:25:38 JA: Or widgets need to wrapped in super-divs with new roles... 18:25:59 CL: Somewhat being done in the roadmap 18:26:07 DHTML roadmap 18:26:20 CL: Widgets son't usually have colours 18:27:18 jr: e.g. high contrast user yellow forground black background, how does that translate to the widgets. 18:27:24 CL: So is this something that OS's have already done... 18:29:01 jr: some want applications to run in the borwser. raster drawing wrapped in divs and become actional objects in the browser 18:29:19 CL: Will discuss more with Becky 18:30:24 JA: So we may need clarification in 3.1 - are we talking about page level background images... 18:31:27 CL: Right but unfortunately we already refer to CSS properties that could be done on element by element. 18:33:26 Topic: 3.2 Toggle audio, video, animated images (P1) 18:34:10 JA: JR had said how do you turn of sound independent of video. 18:34:36 JA: But video with sound may have been handed off to embedded player 18:35:57 jr: we always come to the secondary player (pugins, objects, etc.) 18:36:45 jr: are we at the point of saying a browser is conformant to html and x or y. 18:37:10 jr: but if the browser cannot communicate with the plugins and allow control then it is not conformant 18:38:08 JA: As we dance around v1.1, there is browser side and there is plugin side then there is part where they need to talk 18:39:13 JA: Dream way back when was for conformance reports for all the little plugin players 18:40:16 JA: Seems to be tied in to compound doc stuff...with all its different layers 18:41:03 Topic: 3.3 Toggle animated or blinking text (P1) 18:41:57 JA: To me this is confusing...since we say render as motionless then in examples we say turn off with escape 18:42:30 JR: Thinks this is implicit, but we should add explicit technique about having setting for that. 18:43:02 CL: Real problem is defn of animation. 18:43:53 CL: Could be using Javascript, CSS 18:44:36 JA: Do mention animation in Techniques 18:45:02 oops: animation should have been Javascript 18:45:38 CL: Flash is definatelyu beyond browsers control 18:48:13 CL: Javascript alone is limitless in ways to create animation 18:49:13 CL: So are you changing the techs? 18:49:37 JA: Yes making changes to non-normative techniques that could become a note. 18:51:04 JA: But we are having a problem that lots of issues coming up are not solvable at techniques level when changes required to notmative stuff 18:51:36 JA: Before Xmas, we worked with Roadmap, we thought things were covered, but now seeing bigger holes. 18:52:26 Topic: 3.4 Toggle scripts (P1) 18:52:47 CL: Don't know why Applets included... 18:53:25 CL: ActiveX very Windows specific 18:53:35 CL: "Executable content includes scripts, applets, and ActiveX controls. This checkpoint does not apply to plug-ins; they are not part of content. 18:53:42 " is weird. 18:54:32 CL: THese things not in definition of content 18:55:08 JA: Applet defintion is weird..UA doesn't execute applets, JVM does 18:55:31 JA: Otherwise must be able to toggle ActiveX controls, Java, etc 18:57:38 CL" All these things are plugins 18:59:56 Aside: Bugzilla for Firefox development has UAAG bugs. 19:01:50 JA: Next week Techs fo Guideline 4. 19:02:04 JR: F2F? 19:02:33 JA: Could be useful for 1.1 planning or should we move ahead on techniques. 19:03:33 -[IBM.a] 19:03:51 CL: Useful to talk to PF about the direction they want us go. 19:03:59 -[IBM] 19:04:21 -Jim_Allan 19:04:25 -[IPcaller] 19:04:26 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended 19:04:28 Attendees were [IBM], Jim_Allan, [IPcaller] 19:04:36 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:04:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2006/07/13-ua-minutes.html JR 19:04:43 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:05:42 zakim, bye 19:05:42 Zakim has left #ua 19:05:47 rrsagent, bye 19:05:47 I see no action items