ISSUE-91: Re-focus and tighten definition of the aside element

aside

Re-focus and tighten definition of the aside element

State:
CLOSED
Product:
HTML 5 spec
Raised by:
Shelley Powers
Opened on:
2010-01-08
Description:
Currently, the following line is given with the aside element:

"The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other content
that is considered separate from the main content of the page."

If the aside is equivalent to a printed sidebar, there should be no nav
elements, and shouldn't be referenced as a web page sidebar. This confuses the
semantics of the element, which decreases its value.

Another section element should be used for a web page sidebar, the same as a
section should be used for the main content (or a second sidebar, etc).

In addition, no navigation should be embedded in an aside element--not if it is
to be used for pull quotes or typographical sidebars. Placing navigation in the
aside could lead to it being skipped by some user agents, who treat the
element's semantics seriously.

If there is an HTML5 primer, we would want to clarify that the aside element is
not used for web page sidebars.

The argument has been put forth that the change in the description came aobut because of web developer request.

There will always be one group of people or another who want something stated, as is, in the document. Our job in the Working Group, though, is to ensure that the HTML5 specification is consistent, does not introduce extraneous material, does not encapsulate material best left for other standards bodies (or specs),
or does not introduce confusion by allowing too generic a definition on our supposedly "semantic" new elements.

Originally aside was defined in such a way that it is consistent with the publishing industry's concept of "sidebar". But then some folks asked that it be used for sidebar, primarily because sidebar was used in the earlier description.

A sidebar should be nothing more than another section. It is a unique column,
all of its own. By the over broad redefining of aside, we've basically limited
its usefulness.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeaside
HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-aside-element]
Related Actions Items:
No related actions
Related emails:
  1. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-07)
  2. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-07)
  3. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-07)
  4. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-07)
  5. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-06-07)
  6. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-05)
  7. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  8. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-06-04)
  9. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-04)
  10. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  11. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-04)
  12. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  13. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-04)
  14. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  15. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-06-04)
  16. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  17. RE: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-06-04)
  18. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-06-04)
  19. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-04)
  20. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-04)
  21. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-04)
  22. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-03)
  23. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-03)
  24. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-03)
  25. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-03)
  26. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-03)
  27. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-03)
  28. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-06-03)
  29. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-02)
  30. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-02)
  31. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-02)
  32. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-06-03 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-02)
  33. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-02)
  34. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from masinter@adobe.com on 2010-06-02)
  35. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-06-02)
  36. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-02)
  37. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-02)
  38. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-02)
  39. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no on 2010-06-02)
  40. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-01)
  41. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-01)
  42. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-01)
  43. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-06-01)
  44. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-01)
  45. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from jackalmage@gmail.com on 2010-06-01)
  46. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-01)
  47. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-01)
  48. Re: Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from shelleyp@burningbird.net on 2010-06-01)
  49. Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-06-01)
  50. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-05-27)
  51. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from faulkner.steve@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  52. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com on 2010-05-27)
  53. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-27 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-26)
  54. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-20: Surveys close, Publishing new Working Drafts (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-19)
  55. minutes, 2010-05-13 HTML WG telcon (from mike@w3.org on 2010-05-14)
  56. World-readable issue survey results (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-13)
  57. {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2010-05-13: Action items, surveys, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-12)
  58. ISSUE-91 - Removing the aside Element - Straw Poll for Objections (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-05-12)
  59. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-05-06: Action items, issues, decision policy, calls, surveys, publishing - minutes (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-05-06)
  60. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-05-06: Action items, issues, decision policy, calls, surveys, publishing (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-05-05)
  61. HTML-A11Y Task Force Recommendation: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 (from janina@rednote.net on 2010-05-03)
  62. RE: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-29: Action items, new issues, Task Force reports - minutes of the meeting (from adrianba@microsoft.com on 2010-04-29)
  63. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-29: Action items, new issues, Task Force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-28)
  64. Re: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-22)
  65. Re: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-22)
  66. Re: Zero-edit Change Proposal for ISSUE-90 figure, ISSUE-91 aside, ISSUE-93 details, ISSUE-95 hidden, ISSUE-96 progress, and ISSUE-97 meter (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-21)
  67. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  68. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-22: Action items, issues, decision policy, A11Y recommendations, polyglot spec (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-21)
  69. Fwd: HTML-A11Y Task Force Recommendation: ISSUES-90, 91, 93, 95, 96, & 97 (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-04-21)
  70. Minutes of HTML WG meeting, Apr 8 2010 (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-04-08)
  71. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-08: calls for proposals, issue status (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-07)
  72. Re: ISSUE-90, ISSUE-91, ISSUE-93, ISSUE-95, ISSUE-96, ISSSUE-97: (new semantic elements/attributes) - Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-06)
  73. Re: ISSUE-91 Change Proposal (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-06)
  74. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-04-04)
  75. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-04)
  76. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from faulkner.steve@gmail.com on 2010-04-04)
  77. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-02)
  78. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-04-02)
  79. Re: Removal of other semantic elements (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-04-02)
  80. RE: Removal of other semantic elements (from jfoliot@stanford.edu on 2010-04-02)
  81. Removal of other semantic elements (from jonas@sicking.cc on 2010-04-02)
  82. [minutes] 2010-04-01 HTML Teleconference (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-04-01)
  83. Re: Change proposals uploaded to Wiki - URLs, suggestions on Issue 92 table (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-31)
  84. ISSUE-91 Change Proposal (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-31)
  85. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-03-30)
  86. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  87. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-04-01: action items, decision policy update, issue status (from Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com on 2010-03-30)
  88. [minutes] 20100325 HTML teleconference (from plh@w3.org on 2010-03-30)
  89. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-24)
  90. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-03-25: decision policy, issue status, updates from meetings, task force reports (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-24)
  91. Re: Breakdown of issues (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-03-12)
  92. Breakdown of issues (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-03-12)
  93. Extension granted on some Change Proposals (from mjs@apple.com on 2010-01-27)
  94. Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from shelley.just@gmail.com on 2010-01-13)
  95. {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2010-01-14: AIs, CfC/CfPs, TFs, plus: heartbeat docs (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-13)
  96. ISSUE-91 aside - Chairs Solicit Proposals (from rubys@intertwingly.net on 2010-01-13)
  97. [Bug 8447] Tighter definition on the aside element (from bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org on 2010-01-08)
  98. ISSUE-91 (aside): Re-focus and tighten definition of the aside element [HTML 5 spec] (from sysbot+tracker@w3.org on 2010-01-08)

Related notes:

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeaside

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:03:35

Working Group Decision on ISSUE-91: Removing the aside Element
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0003.html

Laura Carlson, 3 Jun 2010, 17:55:09

Changelog:

Created issue 'Re-focus and tighten definition of the aside element' nickname aside owned by Shelley Powers on product HTML 5 spec, description 'Currently, the following line is given with the aside element:

"The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other content
that is considered separate from the main content of the page."

If the aside is equivalent to a printed sidebar, there should be no nav
elements, and shouldn't be referenced as a web page sidebar. This confuses the
semantics of the element, which decreases its value.

Another section element should be used for a web page sidebar, the same as a
section should be used for the main content (or a second sidebar, etc).

In addition, no navigation should be embedded in an aside element--not if it is
to be used for pull quotes or typographical sidebars. Placing navigation in the
aside could lead to it being skipped by some user agents, who treat the
element's semantics seriously.

If there is an HTML5 primer, we would want to clarify that the aside element is
not used for web page sidebars.

The argument has been put forth that the change in the description came aobut because of web developer request.

There will always be one group of people or another who want something stated, as is, in the document. Our job in the Working Group, though, is to ensure that the HTML5 specification is consistent, does not introduce extraneous material, does not encapsulate material best left for other standards bodies (or specs),
or does not introduce confusion by allowing too generic a definition on our supposedly "semantic" new elements.

Originally aside was defined in such a way that it is consistent with the publishing industry's concept of "sidebar". But then some folks asked that it be used for sidebar, primarily because sidebar was used in the earlier description.

A sidebar should be nothing more than another section. It is a unique column,
all of its own. By the over broad redefining of aside, we've basically limited
its usefulness.' non-public

Shelley Powers, 8 Jan 2010, 17:09:14

Status changed to 'open'

Sam Ruby, 12 Feb 2010, 20:20:39

Description changed to 'Currently, the following line is given with the aside element:

"The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other content
that is considered separate from the main content of the page."

If the aside is equivalent to a printed sidebar, there should be no nav
elements, and shouldn't be referenced as a web page sidebar. This confuses the
semantics of the element, which decreases its value.

Another section element should be used for a web page sidebar, the same as a
section should be used for the main content (or a second sidebar, etc).

In addition, no navigation should be embedded in an aside element--not if it is
to be used for pull quotes or typographical sidebars. Placing navigation in the
aside could lead to it being skipped by some user agents, who treat the
element's semantics seriously.

If there is an HTML5 primer, we would want to clarify that the aside element is
not used for web page sidebars.

The argument has been put forth that the change in the description came aobut because of web developer request.

There will always be one group of people or another who want something stated, as is, in the document. Our job in the Working Group, though, is to ensure that the HTML5 specification is consistent, does not introduce extraneous material, does not encapsulate material best left for other standards bodies (or specs),
or does not introduce confusion by allowing too generic a definition on our supposedly "semantic" new elements.

Originally aside was defined in such a way that it is consistent with the publishing industry's concept of "sidebar". But then some folks asked that it be used for sidebar, primarily because sidebar was used in the earlier description.

A sidebar should be nothing more than another section. It is a unique column,
all of its own. By the over broad redefining of aside, we've basically limited
its usefulness.

HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-aside-element]'

Shelley Powers, 12 Feb 2010, 23:40:46

Description changed to 'Currently, the following line is given with the aside element:

"The element can be used for typographical effects like pull quotes or
sidebars, for advertising, for groups of nav elements, and for other content
that is considered separate from the main content of the page."

If the aside is equivalent to a printed sidebar, there should be no nav
elements, and shouldn't be referenced as a web page sidebar. This confuses the
semantics of the element, which decreases its value.

Another section element should be used for a web page sidebar, the same as a
section should be used for the main content (or a second sidebar, etc).

In addition, no navigation should be embedded in an aside element--not if it is
to be used for pull quotes or typographical sidebars. Placing navigation in the
aside could lead to it being skipped by some user agents, who treat the
element's semantics seriously.

If there is an HTML5 primer, we would want to clarify that the aside element is
not used for web page sidebars.

The argument has been put forth that the change in the description came aobut because of web developer request.

There will always be one group of people or another who want something stated, as is, in the document. Our job in the Working Group, though, is to ensure that the HTML5 specification is consistent, does not introduce extraneous material, does not encapsulate material best left for other standards bodies (or specs),
or does not introduce confusion by allowing too generic a definition on our supposedly "semantic" new elements.

Originally aside was defined in such a way that it is consistent with the publishing industry's concept of "sidebar". But then some folks asked that it be used for sidebar, primarily because sidebar was used in the earlier description.

A sidebar should be nothing more than another section. It is a unique column,
all of its own. By the over broad redefining of aside, we've basically limited
its usefulness.

Change Proposal:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/removeaside
HTML5-SPEC-SECTIONS [the-aside-element]'

Laura Carlson, 10 May 2010, 13:03:35

Status changed to 'closed'

Sam Ruby, 6 Jun 2010, 15:01:51


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