W3C logo Web   Accessibility Initiative (WAI) logo > EOWG Home > EOWG Minutes

EOWG Minutes 14 March 2003 Meeting

on this page: attendees - outreach updates - f2f debrief - gallery - contacting "webmasters" - business case - site redesign - next meeting


agenda in e-mail list archives: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2003JanMar/0114.html


Agenda Changes

Judy, Helle asked to move gallery up. Outreach updates then, debrief from last week,

Helle if we have some more general debrief.

Judy, and the personas and... Shawn will facilitate today.

Outreach Updates


Debrief from face-to-face last week

Shawn one of the things, side note, some discussion in W3C. Anyone who was there. Get you voice heard. Did everyone get link in your email.

Doyle member only and I couldn't use.

Helle they sent out a second email apologizing.

Doyle second one indicated we could send in our comments.

[Mark Urban joins.]

Shawn What were things that made it a good EO meeting Helle?

Helle the task force meetings on Thursday especially we did a lot of work until we skipped the agenda and went out into Boston.

Shawn we have started doing more task force in EO a smaller group working on a task now. Web redesign task force, smaller group cranking group working away and then bringing that to the attention of the larger EO group.

Shawn Some discussion about having TP type of meetings twice a year, or longer.

Doyle twice would be ok, but not longer.

Shawn one of the things about we try to meet face to face twice a year. What about in terms of travel. Impact your ability to attend. If we had it twice a year.

Helle it is always a little hard to say the next three quarters within reasonable possibilities for traveling.

Shawn I will take an action item to give that feedback about that item. Any other debrief.

Doyle Face To Face liked user design part where we can say what we really want.

Gallery task force status

Shawn We did that and it was good. Let's talk about the gallery task force. Give an over view of Thursday.

Helle excellent minutes from the meeting.

Helle On the EU time constraint, we were focusing on how to get up and running... and get on with the work and looking at all the sites. Changed in the way we look at them. We select five pages from each site. If we just let people look at them. Get a random sample of sites. Compare cover both selections from each site. If they have formal or beta pages or things like that. It is a huge job to find these five sample pages.

Shawn just deciding the five sample pages?

Helle it takes forever to find the five pages.

Shawn do we think we have enough potential sites to meet double A?

Helle we have to find a broader sample. We have to look to Germany, and some of the other member states. Maybe Judy can comment on that at some point. Come from several member countries.

Shawn so basically we are trying to narrow it down now. Try to find some sites in EU particularly in the EU.

Helle we have to discuss a little more in the task force. Pierre what is you ?

Pierre it is easier to find sites from the government we work with them already so for a question of easier work at the beginning, the way I think, on the private side, on .. take some more time to be more efficient to get every week a number of sites. Government more than private sites at the beginning.

Shawn in terms of what EO can be doing. We are still actively EU government opened up to more sites. Potentially WCAG 1 and 2 if anyone knows of one that would be great!

Helle remember the list that Judy collected in Copenhagen. One of the things in the to do list for the task. To contact and communicate with Web Masters something about the test procedure a good thing to discuss in the WAI meetings. Not directly related to the EU thing.

Shawn... providing things for people with Disabilities. Their sites to be available to web masters.

Suggest list free tools online

Helle I have a questioned something some of us talked about on Friday. Eric and Andrew and myself, when you look at evaluation and repair, they have a list of tools. Only the list of tools that you can use free. Lift High software, Ask L, it would be a great help to have a list that were available online and for no charge. Conflict with the W3C. Make part of the evaluation of kinds of tools, now listed into three kinds of tools.

[Charmane joins]

Mark Helle makes a good point to run afoul of trying to appear of vendor neutral. These are the ones who can get through a purchase process.

Shawn this is something that keeps coming up. Everyone likes the idea. Can we do it or not. We are talking about W3C policy to avoid things like a vendor who actively goes against that idea. How about if we take that we write down something we want to do if we can figure out how to write appropriately.

Helle who is in charge writes that page.

Judy developed by the Evaluation and Repair working group. Jointly managed by EO and ERWG. As we have discussed a number of times we'll be taking over the maintenance of the page. Including as part of the evaluation and repair page. We have had discussion in this of how to do that. Wendy had carried through some quick reorganization of that.

Shawn do you want to comment about type in your report.

Judy I think that is an interesting idea. A way to provide the informational for organizations that they have some online demo tools for a page by page evaluation. I think what it really calls for something that is sortable. A bit more ambitious conversation project. If we look at and think

Shawn so one possibility to add that to get one possibility. A lot of people in favor of that. Not a black and white category. Free an on line. Is that something we could do?

Judy I don't think it is black and white. I think it would mean some tools go in and out of that status. I am not positive it is simple as you are suggesting.

Helle Eric Velleman and I looked that on Saturday. We thought would be doable. We were looking at the general list. The section called general tools. A sentence at the bottom that says there is a free section.

Judy I am not sure it easy to put together.

Helle the idea that question when it came when were trying evaluate web sites. On Friday and Saturday morning. A link to the evaluation and repair might be more helpful. Something the can use without purchasing. You have to look at all the tools, without purchasing.

Shawn that goes along with Judy's idea of having a separate page. That idea is minuted. Possible or not. Helle would you like to take an action item and compile for the list?

Helle I could do that.

Shawn not as easy as plopping that down there. A gray list would be helpful also.

Helle Eric and I thought it would good to announce on the interest group list.

Shawn I would say not until we are ready to provide that. Then I think it would be good but we are not ready to do yet.

Helle for vendors who might say you forgot me.

Henk if you want some cooperation one of our people could do something with you Helle.

Shawn for everyone to write down what the issues. were. If Henk you could write down what you need to. Address as group. Anything else?

Gallery plan with schedule

Henk we have talked a lot again but we have not made an agreement to start yet. Good to collect those candidates to start. Pick some dates and a week to have one or two then have some results. Will come up and then discuss and then have a first experience.

Shawn you are asking for a plan and schedule.

Henk so not ot keep on talking.

Shawn do we even have five sites that meet priority one or two. Or people work with us to get that level.

Henk we can talk and then see if they do comply. On the online site there were already six sites. Those six are already in place and they can be evaluated. If those six are not the proper. They will come out two or three.

Shawn one of the things that Helle pointed out. If id does not not meet the checkpoints. And they aren't willing to get it up to speed. a waste of our time to evaluate the site.

Henk if we have some contact with the web master, and they are willing to work on the sites. That we have at least two. And then we have an other two you are almost complying you do some changes you will be in.

Shawn you are proposing some sites even though we know they don't comply.

Judy I think that realistically that none of them can comply. I was interested in your suggestion of going ahead by working two by two each week, and they all did have conformance problems. A modification and let's proceed that all of them will need some work. Does that work for people.

Mark important to go for the low hanging fruit.

Marja somebody already interested in doing that.

Shawn do have some to do?

Helle Alistair did some testing on the five sites

Judy I think he said he would be really busy the following week. I thought we all agreed at the end of the meeting. I am wondering how good this is for the whole group instead of the task force. In Boston we agreed to proceed to narrow things down to go ahead. We can't display the reviews on a public list. Looking at things on ..

Shawn I don't think we got you on the email list to Henk. Forward that to you. Next so then one thing, Judy Henk and Helle schedule a task force meeting.

Judy I think we can do an email. We also Henk at the meeting continuing to come up with some candidate sites. Some ot of the work   was not just government and not just disability organizations.

Henk there are already for or five people to do that.

Judy some rings of people, four or five people to make suggestions, and broader  to group review that suggestions.

Henk priority two?

Judy looking at not just one site to priority one.

Henk... when someone would choose from their country.

Judy focus upon at least a week.

Marja like the Finnish site.

Shawn closing this out, I will forward this to Henk. The core team does one site for next week. So we

Henk perhaps not on the list. What do you mean by those chosen by everybody. Private mail to each other?

Judy I think some sites with the initial review, on the password review is that what you mean?

Henk suggestions in private?

Judy it needs to be private if someone starts commenting that this is terrible, that it will backfire on what we are trying to do.

Shawn I think I will send a list of everyone on the task force. Judy Pierre, Alistair, Henk, Helle, DOnna?

Judy I don't think it wouldn't make sense for her to be on a second tier of evaluators.

Gallery discussion wrap up

Shawn one of things that Helle brought up contacting web masters. Have that discussion in the task force or EO later to have a discussion here. Talk about now.

Charmane what it the point of contacting the web master?

Shawn two things. ...within the context outside the gallery, we have talking about for example the user materials people to provide constructive encouragement for anyone to make any site accessible. RNIB send to someone about their site is not accessible.

Charmane. I have not opinion about contacting.

Shawn lets see what is on the list. Web Site Redesign.

Judy Use cases not something to focus on for this meeting.

Judy we could do a shorter. The business case report and persona to check in about. Just for a reminder I have asked Shawn to facilitate. I apologize for my choppy participation today.

Henk I have to hang up in a minute. Are we going to talk to talk about the gallery on Friday the 28th? Or take into the task force.

Shawn I think the task force.

Helle Pierre keep in contact this week?

Pierre on the site, the tool is usable for evaluation on line. Or not?

Helle Henk you should answer that.

Henk alright. you mean that Pierre needs a password.

Pierre is it that a meeting all that can follow. Tool use we have and make a report we do already.

Henk I don't know what you mean by tool.

Pierre the evaluation report on line. What is online?

Henk the gallery form. I'm not sure what you are meaning.

Shawn Pierre is taking over for Sylvie. Because he is going to an active member. He hasn't even seen yet.

Henk I can guarantee of course.

Shawn is there a general one he can use?

Helle if you have some time. The one I sent that you have seen that?

Henk I have seen your mail but there is no document links.

Helle I will send to Eric. We have tried to make a few changes to the gallery under the design for all part.

Shawn I will send an email with  emeveryone's email with the task force, their email.

Contacting "webmasters"

Shawn Charmane are you thoughts on contacting web masters.

Charmane general understand the lay of the land first.

Shawn take fifteen minutes to record the high level. We are jumping into a sub topic of contacting web masters.

Charmane the contact doesn't mean the web master, you don't know who you are reaching. YOu don't know who that really is. That doesn't mean anything. The web master may not be the person to talk to. There is a wide variety of the  organizational hierarchy. If that person can respond. one of the issues getting to the right person. The other issue. From an organizational stand point it sort of depends on the deciding position how they would take what you said. In an hierarchical even if worded nicely. Just as a general rule erring on the side of here is some information. Give them their organizational tree. If you would get some people would welcome you, but some who would blow you off. Very touchy.

Shawn anyone want to chime in. I agree and that is good to get written down.

Business case drafts status & plans

Shaw Moving on. Talk a little bit about the business case. We did a lot of work on that we have a significant change log on that. Andrew and alistair. There is not a meeting next week because of CSUN. They will have something to discuss for the next meeting.

WAI Web site redesign kickoff, task force development

Shawn in the agenda there is a link for overview of what we did. The minutes are really good for that. Let's talk about the goals and visions for the next step - user/audience analysis. Let's go ahead and jump into that. the WCAG is thinking about their framing and designing, I think a great. She is planning some interviews. Anyone on the call planning on being at CSUN? How interested are people following up on WCAG. Wendy and I are thinking about are you interested in seeing what they came up with.

Henk... and Charmane are interested.

Charmane would you mind input?

Shawn no please do.

Charmane what kind of people are planning interviewing.

Shawn Wendy is focusing on people who use WCAG. I think there is some overlap but we want to be more broad. Let's jump into the discussion the material for the audience. There is a link from the agenda, but good to do a clean slate. One audience group, that use the WAI site.


Blossom. Um I can think of one group would be wanting to learn web sites accessible.

Shawn a task of that group. This is a brainstorming session. Good ideas tossing out ideas without worrying about there. Name that group of people. E.g., if doing a web site for pet supplies. The audience would be pet owners, gift buyers.

Blossom how would I name the audience for WAI. People for organizations. I would asked to write the Accessibility guidelines.

Shawn what was your role? Job title?

Blossom write the Wells Fargo. It would have been Enterprise wide accessible to everyone developers to people Policy writers.

Shawn internal policy writer. come back to that. One would be graphic designer.

Doyle Technical trainers sends her students. Web site developers.

Marja someone who orders web sites in the company and need to know the results are accessible.

Shawn procuring web site design.

Charmane faculty and administrators.

Henk members of working groups. Like WCAG. Not that easy to find everything. Accessibility consultants. Information resource.

Shawn working group member within WAI. Outside of WAI, someone working on RDF have you thought of accessibility, members of the press.

Charmane media personal.

Doyle AIr people who do the contest come to WAI.

Charmane Government.

Shawn roles?

Charmane policy makers researchers.

Shawn researchers.

Marja usability people.

Shawn web designers. Coders. doing HTML. Markup. Managers. In addition to what Marja was saying. Web site development inside a company the manager to look at what they need to do in terms of accessibility. Anyone

Doyle Lawyers and staff.

Shawn HR

Doyle a major area of interest in Wells Fargo. Vendors

Shawn authoring tools vendors, and user agent vendors.

Henk's screen reader technology vendors.

Shawn purchasers of authoring tools.

Doyle TV reports media.

Blossom application developers. Other kinds of developers.


Shawn lets include. Let's jump into that that is related. Tasks why they come to the WAI site so we can think about other audience repeat the tasks.

Blossom sure I came because I was researching accessibility. writing internal guidelines.

Shawn Doyle you alluded

Doyle students to learn what this all about.

Shawn writing internal policies. Writing internal policy.

Charmane tools and documentation and how to.

Shawn make their web site accessible.

Doyle news resource.

Shawn news resource on what is coming down the pipeline, and the accessibility of the new things. A lot of the task at the first part. Static pages but now you will be doing forms and things like that, What are some of the audience

Doyle people come to us to understand for how people collaborate on tasks.

Blossom that government why they come to WAI making sure they are complying to aCCessible guidelines.

Pierre looking of other r people. Compliant and looking for local contacts.

Shawn, listing people are coming to the site. Important may be looking for free help. Looking for examples for sites that meet WCAG. Like the examples looking for little bits. Accessible forms.

Charmane people in government whatever their laws are comparing five oh eight. For decision making.

Shawn internal policy within a company, government, education, etc.

Charmane that is policy making but I am saying making the decision. I maybe assigned the task to compiling a policy, that is different from comparing and contrast, so that administrators can go with. Not at the policy stage yet.

Shawn pre-policy research. Could we get what is this all about covers a lot of the things. Media writing an article.

Doyle media makes pictures. Doing a radio.

Shawn visual examples. What are some more specific. What or why is that all about. Motivated them to get to our site?

Doyle Search. functions. Metadata and how you think of taxonomy. Librarians. Add as role. What.

Shawn what task is that.

Doyle doing research.


Shawn why do they need to know use case development. Audience or task you want to start out with.

Marja they have heard and want to know.

Shawn heard about us?

Marja giving a talk.

Shawn conference. Mentioned both. Scenario fictional made up story about that types of things that people. Accessible

Doyle walking down the CSUN

Shawn Persona disability aware.

Doyle someone in rehab

Shawn someone who recently disabled. Let's work more with Marja's scenario. Marja what is that person's job.

Marja a person inside the company using the products.

Shawn works on web design. Within a company as opposed to government and education. How did they end up our site. Given a URL? use search engine?

Marja don't remember the URI and use a search engine.

Shawn persona and scenario use cases help you keep in mind a potential situation why someone come to the site. One of the things we do after we make the initial story. How well this site meets this persons needs. If you are online and go to the WAI home page. Someone pick.

Marja Rosa

Shawn Rosa types in web accessibility. Imagine you are Rosa.

Marja shoe doesn't go to the home page.

Shawn accessibility goes to home Existing tools page we were talking about earlier. That is a kind of thing we do that

Marja related to navigation.

Shawn let's do some more about the scenario and the Rosa scenario. I write down to research, what is that compelled to find out more about this.

Marja her company is in trouble and ok people who are getting old. New kinds of services to help them.

Shawn that is what motivated her.

Blossom scenario legal issues, Rosa already has a web site. coming to this page. You might see the wai resources. Look at the WEB.

Shawn non native English speakers scenario.

Marja how do you get there to start.

Shawn she didn't expect that it would be an in page link.

Marja she wants to do more accessibility. More search. There is a link to the main page.

Blossom going to the bottom and might see the WAI references. The place to start with WEb accessibility.

Shawn some notes on navigation issues.

Marja she might give up, way too much.

Shawn an issue we have to address.

Marja why to get started.

Shawn. ok. Let's do, nine minutes or so left. Really focused someone who might be looking at WCAG at the Guidelines. Doyle said that has been doing basic HTML pages know what they need to do with static pages, but now they have been asked to change jobs, with forms, frames and multi-media. find out more about accessibility. Let's somebody. volunteers.

Blossom Ned have a person somewhat familiar with the WAI site to find more specific information. Wanting to learn more. Go to the the WAI home page do a W3C search. If I was the person do a specific technology. right away see on the the home page. i have a deadline.

Shawn ok so what specifically this person is looking for?

Blossom x-forms. looking for and learning more about xML, if I were NED going away from our page, learning about XML as a whole.

Shawn relation of the WAI site to the rest of the W3C.

Marja, I have one comment.

Shawn write down.

Marja I was trying to get to the site by googol, HTML, from there to the WAI site. Nothing that gets you to WAI easily.

Shawn from the Guidelines. Good point. Site design task force will be doing this kind of work. Charmane said they would be interested, and Andrew, And Blossom.

Marja I can do some.

Shawn our plan would be to do most of this in the task force. To bring to the group for review. Peoples comments about that?

Doyle make available to other people also.

Shawn Judy and Janet would make available to people in W3C available. Anything else and closing.

Next Meeting

Charmane getting together March 28th

Shawn hopefully have some reading to do for this. Have this available by Wednesday.

Doyle great to have.

Shawn thanks all.

Next Friday meeting - March 28

Last updated 16 March 2003 by Shawn Henry (shawn @w3.org)