Spatial Data on the Web SSN Subgroup Teleconference

<Roba> Just lurking without webex as i travel..

<ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes

<ahaller2> approve last meeting’s minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes

<kerry> +1

<DanhLePhuoc> +1

Approval of previous minutes

+1

<ahaller2> +1

<ahaller2> patent call: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call

RESOLUTION: Minutes approved

Patent call

ahaller2: Reads patent call

Group members' capacity for Ontology work in Nov/Dec

<ahaller2> agenda: Group members' capacity for Ontology work in Nov/Dec

ahaller2: We're supposed to have produced a 2nd iteration by now
... Need a new WD by the end of the year
... Need volunteers for diff parts of the doc.
... The new SSN Ontology is the obvious one
... Already have some text that is different from FPWD
... But questions around import, new concepts, so there are some open issues around forecasting, alignment to Time
... Need someone to volunteer to do the modelling
... means coordinating the work on the new SSNO
... Need to coordinate introduction of new terms, maybe loosening semantics of old terms

kerry: I'm prepared to put some effort in. By mid-Nov I can work on it more intensively than I can now.

ahaller2: OK, let's put your name down for coordination from mid-Nov.

phila: Is the 8th mid-Nov?

kerry: No, more like 15th

ahaller2: I think there are more pressing issues around other parts of the ontology.

kerry: I agree and yes

ahaller2: So the more pressing parts really are in the core.
... Quite a lot of work to be done to build the alignment to the new SSN
... Need to coordinate with person doing new SSN and align.
... I was about to volunteer for that but it would be nice of someone else did it.
... Simon has already proposed something wrt alignment.
... I'd also like to propose some changes to the core. Some things missing as identified in Lisbon.
... Labels for the terms still under discussion.
... Can't use the same label as old one referred to DULCE and we don't want to use the same label as that.
... That's something to coordinate.
... If I volunteer, DanhLePhuoc, what's your availabvility

DanhLePhuoc: I have a little bit of time from 2nd week of Nov to 1st week of Dec to do some work

<kerry> ACTION: kerry to coordinate adjustments to "old" ssn to bring to next pwd [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-211 - Coordinate adjustments to "old" ssn to bring to next pwd [on Kerry Taylor - due 2016-11-01].

ahaller2: Can you use that time to work on the doc in this period?
... I know Roba is lurking...

<Zakim> kerry, you wanted to suggest weekly meetings? and to comment on dolce terms

kerry: This might not be the time, but I have some concerns... the DUL alignment is just part of that. One one the implications is not to have DUL comments. Not sure I agree with that in all circumstances.
... They can be useful.
... We can add extra annotation, and change the old ones slightly

<Roba> Im go8ng to be pretty much maxxed out on qb4st...

kerry: To say why DUL terms are recommended.

ahaller2: There's agreement in the Wg that we shouldn't rely on the DUL import in the new SSN
... I agree that DUL helps to explain.
... Maybe in the labels, sometimes it refers to DUL but we can still use the label from DUL without referring to it except in the alignment.

kerry: I mostly agree with you but some of the terms are pretty hard to explain.

ahaller2: Maybe we discuss this when we get to the individual labels.
... We don't have anything yet in terms of actuation.

<kerry> ACTION: danh to work in late Nov/early Dec on pwd for ssn [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-212 - Work in late nov/early dec on pwd for ssn [on Danh Le Phuoc - due 2016-11-01].

ahaller2: DanhLePhuoc Was just offering to help with the doc
... We can ask KJ what he can contribute

Volunteers for collating existing implementations https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83

ahaller2: We still need agreement on the alignment.
... We can use old implementations and use that as evidence.

kerry: I remember someone telling me that they were doing this for a paper. But I can't remember who it was. Might have been at UPM (Raul?)

ahaller2: I can follow up with Raul if it's him.

<kerry> phila: you need to prove that people are using what your standard says

<kerry> ...you can use old implementations iff they match the document

<kerry> ...if the implementation differe from the original ssn but is the same now then that's ok

<kerry> ....but not subclass differences etc. you need impls of what is in the doc

<kerry> and nothing else matters

<kerry> armin: if the only difference is the namespace then you can use the old term

<kerry> ...needs equivalence statment and it must be normative

<kerry> ...but it can go in the alignment as long as alignment is normative

<kerry> .....if put in new ssn would necessarily introduce dolce into new ssn and also all the equivalence axioms

<kerry> ....would prefer to avoid it due to modularisation.

<kerry> phila: then you need to show new implementations that do not use the dolce

<kerry> .....it can be that this is simpler and more practical and we have implementation proof of that.

DanhLePhuoc: If no one else is doing it, I can do a survey and list the implementations

ahaller2: So preliminarily, I'll put you down for that but I'll aslk the list first as I also can recall someone saying they were doing it already.
... OK, we'll put you down as a coordinator

<scribe> ACTION: DanhLePhuoc To coordinate the collection of implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'DanhLePhuoc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: Danh To coordinate the collection of implementations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-213 - Coordinate the collection of implementations [on Danh Le Phuoc - due 2016-11-01].

kerry: If you follow that link in the action, there are links to style on how other people have done it.
... Follow the links to the issue in the tracker

http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org

<ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83

issue-83?

<trackbot> issue-83 -- collate existing implementations -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83

<ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/ORG_Implementations.

Introducing Model Actuation in SSN (Scope, Volunteers)

ahaller2: We closed the issue in the UCR talking about actuation.,
... I think everyone agrees we need actuation in SSN.
... The question is whether we have examples in implementations. I think Maxime had one, and you, DanhLePhuoc?
... So again we need a volunteer to work on this.

<Zakim> kerry, you wanted to speak on actuation

kerry: I did some work in that area 8-10 years ago but I doubt it's the way we'd go. Payam/Surrey are doing something along that line but we'd need a review of the space

DanhLePhuoc: Before the review, I keep asking the WoT IG for help with reviewing

ahaller2: A requirement?

DanhLePhuoc: We could involve them in the discussion.

ahaller2: There's this req... it would be good to align with the generic sensor API
... If we can align with WoT and GSA, good
... We're only three people - any vols or should I write to the list?

<Zakim> kerry, you wanted to suggest a sub-group meetings schedule for this

kerry: I think it will go too slowly if we just meet like this every 2nd week. I'm tempted to make a sub sub group meeting with some WoT people
... Maybe physical meetings every week outside this cycle.

ahaller2: Are you proposing a meeting for the editors, or this meeting every week.

kerry: I think I was thinking of a set of meetings just on that topic.

ahaller2: I think we need the weekly cycle between now and December
... I'd think just the editors would be enough. WDYT?

DanhLePhuoc: OK

<scribe> ACTION: ahaller2 to arrange meetings for SSN editors on weeks when there is no SSN sub group meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-214 - Arrange meetings for ssn editors on weeks when there is no ssn sub group meeting [on Armin Haller - due 2016-11-01].

phila: Do you need special meetings with GSA and/or WoT?

ahaller2: Tobie was agreeing to change a term to observation, Otherwise I think that's enough. No need for a meeting.
... For WoT, I think DanhLePhuoc is well linked in. So we just send them a proposal.

DanhLePhuoc: OK, I can do that.

ahaller2: So we have a method. Do we know who would coordinate the work around actuation.
... I'll write to the list
... So we're done with the agenda but...

Imports

ahaller2: How do we import ontologies in general, do we always agree on importing the ontology?
... I always import ontologies that are referenced but not everyone does. A re we saying you must import the ontology?

kerry: I think there might be specific cases where I thinjk differently, but if SSN is an exemplar, aligning with DUL was good, importing DUL was a bad thing. SO I'd argue against the import of ontologies that use external terms.
... It creates problems in understanding.

DanhLePhuoc: You say importing only when we define new terms ... it's up to the tool chain. They normally import recursively which is usually a bad thing.

ahaller2: The tools will generally import an ontology if you use an external term.
... I think you should import which is what the tools do.
... There's the question of what part imports what?

kerry: A good counter example, is the references to the old SSN for implementation experience. Importing the old into the new is not a good idea.

DanhLePhuoc: schema.org is very careful not to introduce anything that might lead to recursive processing.
... There are a lot of people using ontologies without knowing about importing.

ahaller2: This is why I was in favour of putting the equivalence relations in the DUL alignment, not the main ontology.
... The old SSN imports DUL, so if we import that we get everything.
... Tools will do that.
... So we don't want to import DUL or the old SSN in the new SSN.

<kerry> +++++1

<ahaller2> +1

DanhLePhuoc: Yes, but if you don't import, that needs new implementation, no?

<kerry> +1

ahaller2: That's where my proposal comes in. If we say that the DUL alignment is part of the normative doc, then there's no need to import.

<DanhLePhuoc> +1

kerry: That works for me.
... But, can we go one step further.
... The DUL alignment exists and we'll have that. The equivalence triples could go in a third file, not necessarily in the DUL alignment.
... If we're OK with that then maybe a 3rd file might be cleaner.

ahaller2: That's a good proposal. Maybe the old to new alignment?

kerry: Yes
... And if we do that, I don't think the DUL alignment has to be normative.

phila: Suggests that as soon as we have docs to point to, we seek a view from the Director, not just me.

ahaller2: I think it's a generic problem so the Director's view will be of interest beyond SSN.
... I think we have an agreement on what we import in the new SSN. If the new SSN imports the core or some other modules, we can discuss this at a future meeting.

<ahaller2> KJanowic: we are just closing the meeting

ahaller2: Recaps some of the discussion with KJanowic

<KJanowic> Sounds great

21: 00 UTC

<KJanowic> perfect for me, thanks a lot (2pm)

KJanowic: I agree with the editors having extra meetings

<KJanowic> I would be more than happy to work on the core or basically any of the task that are havy on ontology engineering and alignment

<KJanowic> Sure, I can do that

<scribe> ACTION: KJanowic to coordinate modelling of actuation in SSN [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-215 - Coordinate modelling of actuation in ssn [on Krzysztof Janowicz - due 2016-11-01].

<kerry> I cannot hear KJanowic

KJanowic: DO we havea any updates on the role of SOSA/SOSA Core

<kerry> And I am afriad I must leave

<kerry> Bye!

<KJanowic> bye

s/DO we havea any updates on the role of SOSA\/SOSA Core/Do we have any updates on the role of SOSA\/SOSA Core

<KJanowic> okay, thanks a lot. I am super interesting to continue the SOSA(core) work and hope it to be part of the normative work. I also have time to put work into this

<KJanowic> Thanks a lot for the update and sorry again for joining late!

<ahaller2> thanks, bye

ahaller2: OK, we'll carry this on next week