20:56:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sdwssn
20:56:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-irc
20:56:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:56:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sdwssn
20:56:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:56:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:56:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:56:05 <trackbot> Date: 25 October 2016
20:56:15 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
20:56:51 <phila> phila has joined #sdwssn
20:57:34 <ahaller2> regrets+  SimonCox, Scott Simmons
20:57:41 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:57:43 <phila> present+
20:57:49 <phila> chair: Armin
20:57:57 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Meetings:SSN-Telecon20161025
20:58:12 <phila> regrets+ Scott, Simon
20:58:38 <DanhLePhuoc> DanhLePhuoc has joined #sdwssn
21:00:41 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:00:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:01:15 <kerry> kerry has joined #sdwssn
21:01:28 <phila> s/Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference/Spatial Data on the Web SSN Subgroup Teleconference/
21:01:33 <kerry> present+ kerry
21:02:11 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:03:00 <Roba> Roba has joined #Sdwssn
21:03:37 <Roba> Just lurking without webex as i travel..
21:04:10 <phila> scribe: phila
21:04:13 <phila> scribeNick: phila
21:04:23 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes
21:05:26 <ahaller2> approve last meeting’s minutes https://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes
21:05:31 <kerry> +1
21:05:33 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:05:34 <phila> Topic: Approval of previous minutes
21:05:35 <phila> +1
21:05:37 <ahaller2> +1
21:05:48 <ahaller2> patent call: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
21:05:49 <phila> RESOLUTION: Minutes approved
21:05:53 <phila> Topic: Patent call
21:06:26 <phila> ahaller2: Reads patent call
21:06:35 <phila> Topic: Group members' capacity for Ontology work in Nov/Dec
21:06:40 <ahaller2> agenda: Group members' capacity for Ontology work in Nov/Dec
21:06:55 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:06:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:07:09 <phila> ahaller2: We're supposed to have produced a 2nd iteration by now
21:07:16 <phila> ... Need a new WD by the end of the year
21:07:25 <phila> ... Need volunteers for diff parts of the doc.
21:07:31 <phila> ... The new SSN Ontology is the obvious one
21:07:41 <phila> ... Already have some text that is different from FPWD
21:08:03 <phila> ... But questions around import, new concepts, so there are some open issues around forecasting, alignment to Time
21:08:15 <phila> ... Need someone to volunteer to do the modelling
21:08:28 <phila> ... means coordinating the work on the new SSNO
21:08:48 <kerry> q+
21:08:48 <phila> ... Need to coordinate introduction of new terms, maybe loosening semantics of old terms
21:08:57 <phila> ack k
21:09:20 <phila> kerry: I'm prepared to put some effort in. By mid-Nov I can work on it more intensively than I can now.
21:09:41 <phila> ahaller2: OK, let's put your name down for coordination from mid-Nov.
21:10:08 <phila> phila: Is the 8th mid-Nov?
21:10:13 <phila> kerry: No, more like 15th
21:10:34 <phila> ahaller2: I think there are more pressing issues around other parts of the ontology.
21:10:39 <phila> kerry: I agree and yes
21:10:49 <phila> ahaller2: So the more pressing parts really are in the core.
21:10:53 <kerry> q+ to suggest weekly meetings?
21:10:58 <phila> ... Quite a lot of work to be done to build the alignment to the new SSN
21:11:14 <phila> ... Need to coordinate with person doing new SSN and align.
21:11:27 <phila> ahaller2: I was about to volunteer for that but it would be nice of someone else did it.
21:11:41 <phila> ... Simon has already proposed something wrt alignment.
21:11:59 <phila> ... I'd also like to propose some changes to the core. Some things missing as identified in Lisbon.
21:12:10 <phila> ahaller2: Labels for the terms still under discussion.
21:12:41 <phila> ... Can't use the same label as old one referred to DULCE and we don't want to use the same label as that.
21:12:46 <kerry> q+ to comment on dolce terms
21:12:47 <phila> ... That's something to coordinate.
21:13:04 <phila> ... If I volunteer, DanhLePhuoc, what's your availabvility
21:13:20 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: I have a little bit of time from 2nd week of Nov to 1st week of Dec to do some work
21:13:41 <kerry> action: kerry to coordinate adjustments to "old" ssn to bring to next pwd
21:13:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-211 - Coordinate adjustments to "old" ssn to bring to next pwd [on Kerry Taylor - due 2016-11-01].
21:13:42 <phila> ahaller2: Can you use that time to work on the doc in this period?
21:13:51 <phila> ahaller2: I know Roba is lurking...
21:13:53 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:13:53 <Zakim> kerry, you wanted to suggest weekly meetings? and to comment on dolce terms
21:13:53 <phila> ack k
21:14:41 <phila> kerry: This might not be the time, but I have some concerns... the DUL alignment is just part of that. One one the implications is not to have DUL comments. Not sure I agree with that in all circumstances.
21:14:43 <phila> ... They can be useful.
21:14:48 <ahaller2> q+
21:14:57 <phila> ... We can add extra annotation, and change the old ones slightly
21:15:02 <Roba> Im go8ng to be pretty much maxxed out on qb4st...
21:15:07 <phila> ... To say why DUL terms are recommended.
21:15:28 <ahaller2> ack ahaller2
21:15:53 <phila> ahaller2: There's agreement in the Wg that we shouldn't rely on the DUL import in the new SSN
21:16:04 <phila> ... I agree that DUL helps to explain.
21:16:39 <phila> ... Maybe in the labels, sometimes it refers to DUL but we can still use the label from DUL without referring to it except in the alignment.
21:16:55 <phila> kerry: I mostly agree with you but some of the terms are pretty hard to explain.
21:17:10 <phila> ahaller2: Maybve we discuss this when we get to the individual labels.
21:17:46 <ahaller2> s/Maybve/Maybe
21:17:48 <phila> ahaller2: We don't have anything yet in terms of actuation.
21:17:54 <kerry> action: danh to work in late Nov/early Dec  on pwd for ssn
21:17:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-212 - Work in late nov/early dec  on pwd for ssn [on Danh Le Phuoc - due 2016-11-01].
21:17:55 <phila> ... DanhLePhuoc Was just offering to help with the doc
21:18:14 <phila> ... We can ask KJ what he can contribute
21:18:14 <ahaller2> agenda: Volunteers for collating existing implementations https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83
21:18:25 <phila> s/agenda/Topic/
21:18:46 <phila> ahaller2: We still need agreement on the alignment.
21:19:21 <phila> ... We can use old implementations and use that as evidence.
21:19:32 <kerry> q+
21:19:36 <phila> q+
21:19:41 <phila> ack a
21:19:47 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:19:50 <phila> ack k
21:20:10 <phila> kerry: I remember someone telling me that they were doing this for a paper. But I can't remember who it was. Might have been at UPM (Raul?)
21:20:28 <phila> ahaller2: I can follow up with Raul if it's him.
21:20:41 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:20:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
21:20:43 <ahaller2> ack phila
21:21:30 <kerry> phila: you need to prove that people are using what your stndard says
21:21:41 <ahaller2> s/stndard/standard
21:21:42 <kerry> ...you can use old implementations iff they match the document
21:22:09 <kerry> ...if the implementation differe from the original ssn but is the same now then that's ok
21:22:25 <kerry> ....but not subclass differences etc. you need impls of what is in the doc
21:22:28 <kerry> and nothing else matters
21:22:45 <kerry> armin: if the only difference is the namespace then you can use the old term
21:23:15 <kerry> ...needs equivalence statment and it must be normative
21:23:31 <kerry> ...but it can go in the aliggnment as long as alignment is normative
21:23:58 <kerry> .....if put in new ssn would necessarily introduce dolce into new ssn and also all the equivalence axioms
21:24:05 <ahaller2> s/aliggnment/alignment
21:24:11 <kerry> ....would prefer to avoid it due to modularisation.
21:24:26 <kerry> phila: then you need to show new implementations that do not use the dolce
21:24:45 <kerry> .....it can be that this is simpler and more practical and we have implementation proof of that.
21:24:50 <ahaller2> q?
21:25:28 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: If no one else is doing it, I can do a survey and list the implementations
21:25:59 <phila> ahaller2: So preliminarily, I'll put you down for that but I'll aslk the list first as I also can recall someone saying they were doing it already.
21:26:09 <phila> ahaller2: OK, we'll put you down as a coordinator
21:26:22 <kerry> q+
21:26:32 <phila> action: DanhLePhuoc To coordinate the collection of implementations
21:26:32 <trackbot> Error finding 'DanhLePhuoc'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
21:26:41 <phila> action: Danh To coordinate the collection of implementations
21:26:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-213 - Coordinate the collection of implementations [on Danh Le Phuoc - due 2016-11-01].
21:27:06 <phila> kerry: If you follow that link in the action, there are links to style on how other people have done it.
21:27:24 <phila> kerry: Follow the links to the issue in the tracker
21:27:43 <phila> http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-org
21:28:15 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83
21:28:16 <phila> issue-83?
21:28:17 <trackbot> issue-83 -- collate existing implementations -- raised
21:28:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/issues/83
21:28:24 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/ORG_Implementations.
21:28:46 <ahaller2> agenda: Introducing Model Actuation in SSN (Scope, Volunteers)
21:28:55 <phila> s/agenda/topic/
21:29:05 <phila> ahaller2: We closed the issue in the UCR talking about actuation.,
21:29:18 <phila> ... I think everyone agrees we need actuation in SSN.
21:29:42 <phila> ... TYhe question is whether we have examples in implementations. I think Maxime had one, and you, DanhLePhuoc?
21:29:49 <kerry> q+ to speak on actuation
21:29:52 <phila> ... SO again we need a volunteer to work on this.
21:30:01 <phila> ack k
21:30:01 <Zakim> kerry, you wanted to speak on actuation
21:30:05 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:30:06 <phila> s/SO/So/
21:30:28 <ahaller2> s/TYhe/The
21:30:36 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:30:41 <phila> kerry: I did some work in that area 8-10 years ago but I doubt it's the way we'd go. Payam/Surrey are doing something along that line but we'd need a review of the space
21:30:45 <phila> ack d
21:30:47 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:31:02 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: Before the review, I keep asking the WoT IG for help with reviewing
21:31:14 <phila> ahaller2: A requirement?
21:31:21 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: We could  involve them in the discussion.
21:31:31 <phila> q+
21:31:45 <kerry> q+ to suggest a sub-subgropu meetings schedule for this
21:32:01 <phila> ahaller2: There's this req... it would be good to align with the generic sensor API
21:32:14 <phila> ... If we can align with WoT and GSA, good
21:32:43 <phila> ahaller2: We're only three people - any vols or should I write to the list?
21:32:45 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:32:45 <Zakim> kerry, you wanted to suggest a sub-subgropu meetings schedule for this
21:33:09 <phila> kerry: I think it will go too slowly if we just meet like this every 2nd week. I'm tempted to make a sub sub group meeting with some WoT people
21:33:14 <ahaller2> s/sub-subgropu/sub-group
21:33:25 <phila> ... Maybe physical meetings every week outside this cycle.
21:33:54 <phila> ahaller2: Are you proposing a meeting for the editors, or this meeting every week.
21:34:07 <phila> kerry: I think I was thinking of a set of meetings just on that topic.
21:34:16 <phila> ahaller2: I think we need the weekly cycle between now and December
21:34:51 <phila> ahaller2: I'd think just the editors would be enough. WDYT?
21:34:54 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: OK
21:35:34 <phila> action: ahaller2 to arrange meetings for SSN editors on weeks when there is no SSN sub group meeting
21:35:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-214 - Arrange meetings for ssn editors on weeks when there is no ssn sub group meeting [on Armin Haller - due 2016-11-01].
21:35:45 <phila> ack me
21:36:26 <phila> phila: Do you need special meetings with GSA and/or WoT?
21:36:48 <phila> ahaller2: Tobie was agreeing to change a term to observation, Otherwise I think that's enough. No need for a meeting.
21:37:01 <phila> ... For WoT, I think DanhLePhuoc is well linked in. So we just send them a proposal.
21:37:05 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: OK, I can do that.
21:37:26 <phila> ahaller2: So we have a method. Do we know who would coordinate the work around actuation.
21:38:54 <phila> ahaller2: I'll write to the list
21:40:30 <phila> ahaller2: So we're done with the agenda but...
21:40:36 <phila> Topic: Imports
21:40:53 <phila> ahaller2: How do we import ontologies in general, do we always agree on importing the ontology?
21:41:12 <ahaller2> q?
21:41:25 <phila> ahaller2: I always import ontologies that are referenced but not everyone does.  A re we saying you must import the ontology?
21:41:26 <kerry> q+
21:41:27 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:41:31 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:41:33 <phila> ack k
21:42:19 <phila> kerry: I think there might be specific cases where I thinjk differently, but if SSN is an exemplar, aligning with DUL was good, importing DUL was a bad thing. SO I'd argue against the import of ontologies that use external terms.
21:42:24 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:42:28 <phila> ... It creates problems in understanding.
21:43:03 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: You say importing only when we define new terms ... it's up to the tool chain. They normally import recursively which is usually a bad thing.
21:43:17 <phila> ahaller2: The tools will generally import an ontology if you use an external term.
21:43:32 <kerry> q+
21:43:32 <phila> ahaller2: I think you should import which is what the tools do.
21:43:44 <phila> ... There's the question of what part imports what?
21:43:53 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:44:29 <ahaller2> q+
21:44:36 <phila> kerry: A good counter example, is the references to the old SSN for implementation experience. Importing the old into the new is not a good idea.
21:44:51 <ahaller2> ack ahaller
21:45:15 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: schema.org is very careful not to introduce anything that might lead to recursive processing.
21:45:31 <phila> ... There are a lot of people using ontologies without knowing about importing.
21:46:13 <phila> ahaller2: This is why I was in favour of putting the equivalence relations in the DUL alignment, not the main ontology.
21:46:34 <phila> ... The old SSN imports DUL, so if we import that we get everything.
21:46:41 <phila> ... Tools will do that.
21:47:17 <phila> ahaller2: So we don't want to import DUL or the old SSN in the new SSN.
21:47:20 <kerry> +++++1
21:47:24 <ahaller2> +1
21:47:41 <phila> DanhLePhuoc: Yes, but if you don't import, that needs new implementation, no?
21:48:26 <kerry> +1
21:48:32 <kerry> q+
21:48:33 <phila> ahaller2: That's where my proposal comes in. If we say that the DUL alignment is part of the normative doc, then there's no need to import.
21:48:37 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:48:39 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:48:42 <phila> q+
21:48:46 <phila> kerry: That works for me.
21:48:55 <phila> ... But, can we go one step further.
21:49:30 <phila> ... The DUl alignment exists and we'll have that. The equivalence triples could go in a third file, not necessarily in the DUL alignment.
21:49:42 <phila> ... If we're OK with that then maybe a 3rd file might be cleaner.
21:49:54 <phila> ahaller2: That's a good proposal. Maybe the old to new alignment?
21:49:56 <phila> kerry: Yes
21:49:57 <ahaller2> s/DUl/DUL
21:50:10 <phila> ... And if we do that, I don't think the DUL alignment has tro be normative.
21:50:15 <phila> s/tro/to/
21:50:28 <phila> ack me
21:51:59 <phila> phila: Suggests that as soon as we have docs to point to, we seek a view from the Director, not just me.
21:52:08 <ahaller2> q?
21:52:23 <phila> ahaller2: I think it's a generic problem so the Director's view will be of interest beyond SSN.
21:53:01 <ahaller2> q?
21:53:04 <phila> ahaller2: I think we have an agreement on what we import in the new SSN. If the new SSN imports the core or some other modules, we can discuss this at a futire meeting.
21:53:12 <phila> s/futire/future/
21:53:17 <KJanowic> KJanowic has joined #sdwssn
21:53:34 <KJanowic> present+ kjanowic
21:53:53 <ahaller2> KJanowic: we are just closing the meeting
21:55:27 <phila> ahaller2: Recaps some of the discussion with KJanowic
21:55:36 <KJanowic> Sounds great
21:55:48 <phila> 21:00 UTC
21:55:48 <KJanowic> perfect for me, thanks a lot (2pm)
21:56:29 <phila> KJanowic: I agree with the editors having extra meetings
21:57:38 <KJanowic> I would be more than happy to work on the core or basically any of the task that are havy on ontology engineering and alignment
21:57:56 <KJanowic> Sure, I can do that
21:58:29 <phila> action: KJanowic to coordinate modelling of actuation in SSN
21:58:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-215 - Coordinate modelling of actuation in ssn [on Krzysztof Janowicz - due 2016-11-01].
21:58:57 <KJanowic> q+
22:00:47 <kerry> I cannot hear KJanowic
22:00:52 <phila> KJanowic: DO we havea any updates on the role of SOSA/SOSA Core
22:00:58 <kerry> And I am afriad I must leave
22:01:02 <kerry> Bye!
22:01:06 <KJanowic> bye
22:01:23 <phila> s/DO we havea any updates on the role of SOSA\/SOSA Core/Do we have any updates on the role of SOSA\/SOSA Core
22:01:41 <KJanowic> okay, thanks a lot. I am super interesting to continue the SOSA(core) work and hope it to be part of the normative work. I also have time to put work into this
22:01:57 <KJanowic> Thanks a lot for the update and sorry again for joining late!
22:01:58 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:01:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
22:02:12 <ahaller2> thanks, bye
22:02:12 <phila> ahaller2: OK, we'll carry this on next week
22:02:28 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:02:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html phila
22:02:34 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, make logs public
22:02:56 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/25-sdwssn-minutes.html ahaller2
22:37:56 <ahaller2> ahaller2 has joined #sdwssn
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