W3C

- MINUTES -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

14 Aug 2015

Summary

EOWG met to consider the results of review and comments submitted in response to the work for this week. In reviewing comments, a suggestion was made to remove all reference to CAPTCHA as it is outdated technology on its way out. However, most of EO felt that there was still enough use of CAPTCHA to warrant consideration of a related Tip. The resolution was made to keep a tip that mentions CAPTCHA (perhaps not in the title of the tip), emphasizes that it is inaccessible, and promotes the use of accessible authentication methods. Following more discussion, EO resolved to drop the first example in help users avoid and correct mistakes. Additional revisions were suggested and Kevin will consider all input and post his solutions to GitHub. Finally, Shawn reminded everyone of the process and the rapid pace for review of current work. Asked for everyone to stay in touch with Work for This Week and process questions and comments as soon as reasonably possible. Thanks all!

Attendees

Present
Sharron, Brent, AnnaBelle, Kevin, shadi, Shawn, David, Jon, Andrew
Regrets
Eric, Jon, Paul, Sylvie, Wayne, James, Emmanuelle, Melody, Reinaldo
Chair
Shawn
Scribe
Sharron

Contents


7 August survey debrief

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EOWG-7Aug2015/results

Shawn: Much appreciated comments, will discuss them today. Q3 is the alt text tip in Designing. Most supported it, some OK, some reluctantly supported. Anyone want to comment on that?
... last point is on CAPTCHA. Some strongly some mildly thought we should. Some unsure. We got one late comment that expressed concerns.

<shawn> current tip title "Ensure that CAPTCHAs have accessible alternatives" http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/developing.html#ensure-that-captchas-have-accessible-alternatives"

Jon: I don't think we should include it at all, which would be an endorsement. There are other ways to support security and by mentioning it we validate it. It is an outmoded technology and I think we should leave it alone, not include it at all.
... may say create an accessible means of validation rather than this.

Shawn: Kevin, you had a similar perspective at the start?

Kevin: It is widely used and a major problem. It is a disaster and so I agree that we should not reference it but have respect for the opinions of others.

Shawn: So how about Jon's suggestion to use a more broad term like make sure authentication methods are accessible. What about that approach?

Shadi: I love the idea of broadening it. Since it is a starters guide, if we do not mention CAPTCHA at all, we miss an opportunity to educate people. My understanding is that this could put it on people's radar that CAPTCHA is an issue. Can more effectively help the cause of accessibility by mentioning it and telling them about the problems.

Shawn: Jon, do you see the value in that?

Jon: It should be a stronger statement then to say don't use it and point to all the flaws and offer accessible alternatives.

Shawn: OK there are two issues: one is to mention it at all and the other is how to word it.

Jon: mentioning it at all is a mistake because it recognizes CAPTCHA as an option. If we address it from the standpoint of "here are valid, accessible methods for authentication" rather than pointing to outmoded, inaccessible technology.

Brent: The way I see the issue, it is part of 1.1.1 that mentions CAPTCHA..."reads from SC" Becaue it is mentioned there, we should not ignore it but provide good support for making it accessible.

<Andrew> 1.1.1 - CAPTCHA: If the purpose of non-text content is to confirm that content is being accessed by a person rather than a computer, then text alternatives that identify and describe the purpose of the non-text content are provided, and alternative forms of CAPTCHA using output modes for different types of sensory perception are provided to accommodate different disabilities.

<jon> We also don't mention in these tips Flicker rates, color ratios, etc, which are also mentioned in WCAG 2

AnnaBelle: From a developer's standpoint there has been buzz about Google's new approach to CAPTCHA which seems to be fairly accessible although I have not read it carefully. I would like some simple guidance as a developer. I could point them to the Google version but it would be great to have something in WAI that I could point to - coding solutions that appear to be accessible.

David: If people look to us for guidance and the fact that it is controversial makes it even more important to mention.

<jon> http://www.w3.org/TR/turingtest/

<shawn> updated 23 November 2005 :/

Shadi: Yes it is in WCAG but they also understand the controversy. We could sharpen the language but feel that we must mention it.

Shawn: There is strong support for including it. Jon, can you accept the decision of the majority if we work on the wording, maybe even removing CAPTCHA from the title.

Jon: yes I think that is a good approach

Shawn: Two thoughts: Could use generic term in title, but must have CAPTCHA in there because that's what people recognize.

<Andrew> yes - need to include 'CAPTCHA' in the tip (if not in the title)

Jon: I get it. But when WCAG was published, CAPTCHA was the thing. But now that there are such better options, those should be promoted.

<Andrew> CAPTCHA is still very popular in Australia

<shadi> in Austria too :)

Shawn: I completely agree that the language should be stronger - Kevin are you comfortable with that approach?

<shadi> +1 to be clearer about the issues of CAPTCHA

Shawn: proposal would be "Keep a tip on CAPTCHA, emphasize that it is inaccessible, promote the use of accessible authentication methods."

<Brent> I agree

RESOLUTION: Keep a tip on CAPTCHA, emphasize that it is inaccessible, promote the use of accessible authentication methods

Writing Tips combined

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Quick_Start_Guides/Writing_Tips_Combined

Shawn: We have gone back and forth on this issue. We want everyone to weigh in on this point. When can people get to this...by Wednesday at the latest?
... anyone not able to do that?
... OK will leave it open, comments sooner rather than later. Comments in the wiki. If you have problems with the wiki, send in email. In the wiki add your comments to the top. When everyone has weighed in, we can make final decision next week. Questions?

Writing Tips - alt text

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/writing.html#provide-text-alternatives-for-images

Shawn: Previously suggested that Kevin find an example from tutorials but the dog was too cute and distracting, let's look at the alternative.

Andrew: is this from a real web site?

Kevin: No, I was looking for an example where an image could be used to convey an idea rather than a literal illustration.

Andrew: Is it not then more of a designers role?
... I like the example but not sure it fits in Writing.

David: It is similar to CAPTCHA, it is difficult. We want writing to be polished, focused etc. We also know that designers are likely to be the ones to choose images and should be aware of alt text. It is a tricky thing. Both writers and designers will need to be collaborative in a situation like this one.

Shawn: The specific question here is how this image and this guidance applies to the Writing task. We want to find an example that is more relevant to the Writing task. We are now considering whether this one meets that.

Shadi: I am questioning whether this example is correct. Is it adequate for this resource? It is a very advanced example and it is not sufficiently explained. The difference between what we call the good and bad alt text is subtle and is more like good and better.

<Andrew> +1 to shadi re advanced example

Shadi: I wish our problem was to do this kind of improvement but I don't think the difference here is significant.

<Lydia> in agreement with you

Shawn: I strongly agree that this is not a good example and we need to find another.
... Kevin do you need more info about why this doesn't work, have other ideas?

Sharron: I think a good example depends on context - think about the specifics of the writing task. Can we use an image where alt text changes in context. Could you show an image and how it changes in context and even where it is decorative and empty. We told Kevin we would send him examples, did we?

Shawn: Action for anyone willing to help: think of a useful example specifically related to the writing task that is fairly simple and easy to grok?

Kevin: if anyone has thoughts and ideas, let's put in GitHUb

<AnnaBelle> I'll help :-)

<kevin> GitHub issue regarding alternative text in Writing: https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/133

Developing Tips examples

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/developing.html

Shawn: thanks to all who made comments in survey and GitHub. Kevin want to update us on where we are?

Kevin: Comment about ARIA example is still open, otherwise I think I have closed everything else.

Shawn: Overall, would it be good to differentiate the rendered and code snippet headings from the form.

Kevin: I have not yet gotten to styling the titles, need to review.

Shawn: next one is using mark-up for meaning and structure

<shadi> [[suggest re-using tutorials styling, eg. http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/forms/validation/]]

Kevin: there were comments to do with using both examples.

Shawn: What are people's thoughts about the two?

<AnnaBelle> Thumbs up to two examples.

<AnnaBelle> They are solid examples and quite different from developer perspective.

Shawn: One of my thoughts was that the most basic thing is headings, mark-up, lists and tables. Making sure each of these things is true to its markup. I wonder if the ARIA example misses this very basic issue.

<shadi> +1 to shawn

Shawn: are we losing the basic concept in the example?

Kevin: Some of that is integrated into the second example.

<Andrew> 2 heading levels + list

Shawn: It is most important to clearly cover the basics - does WAI-ARIA need to be emphasized? Maybe just use the second example and point out that the lists and headings are marked up?

AnnaBelle: Are developers the primary target?

Shawn: it's people doing the developing task :)

<Andrew> maybe swap the order of the egs?

AnnaBelle: But *primary* are developers and we want to be able to command their respect and attention. I really like the WAI-ARIA example as a developer. Think about the balance between providing something useful for experienced developers.

Shadi: They may have any kind of developer skills but be new to accessibility.

AnnaBelle: I am talking about mid-range, adequate programming skills. I like having the search example first (it is something I have often seen done incorrectly) and followed by the html5 example. It gives me good information and respect for those who wrote it.

<Andrew> "Basic HTML adds structure to content; HTML5 elements provide additional meaning"

<AnnaBelle> +1 to Andrew's edit

<shawn> [[ Kevin - please change the color of "Superbear saves the day"! -:]]

Shadi: On record, my GitHub comment was to minimize the number of examples. I could live with changing the order. I prefer the Search example because it is shorter, but I hear what people are saying about covering the basics.

Shawn: So first let's look at switching the order, any objections?
... next is to include the ARIA example or not. Kevin, can we look at the other examples and come back to this?

<shawn> next: Help users avoid and correct mistakes

<shawn> +1 to chose one, not both

Shadi: We have to examples that show the same thing. I slightly prefer the second but agree to put just one example here.

Shawn: Any concerns with dropping the first example?

RESOLUTION: Drop first example in help users avoid and correct mistakes

<shawn> "US phone number, of the form ANN-NNN-NNNN, where the first digit is not 0 or 1" ?

David: I am concerned that this example is too nerdy.

Shawn: Agreed, and can we find a phone number that is not US?

Shadi: Eric has a german-centric one in the tutorials.
... what about a date example?

Kevin: Since the idea is to be forgiving about acceptance, dates are not as forgiving.

<AnnaBelle> I didn't instantly understand why example 1 was forgiving, while #2 was clear to me, so I strongly favor example 2. Would be nice to not have quite such a nerdy regex

David: If we are going to use such a phone example, it is not just US, also Canada and Mexico. If we use the HTML5 example, we have a built in validation, by using that we don't have to give as much instruction to the user.

David: it is important that people know that instructions on mandatory fields must precede the input. Should we show that in visual order to reinforce that point?

<Andrew> +1 to visual order

Shawn: Enough input to proceed?

Kevin: no, which example to drop?

Shadi: Seems that second is preferred but needs work.
... may even come up with a third, should use pattern to show forgiveness but not be too nerdy.

Shawn: Next is to look at example in reflect reading order in code order. What comments do we have on this one?

Kevin: A couple have been responded to, nothing outstanding at this time.

Lydia: Instead of reflect could we use review?

Shawn: Thanks for that comment, please put it in GitHub. Let's keep discussion today on the example.
... comments on the example?
... We do not want the rust color in the examples because it is the same color as the headings in the WAI pages. And if you can make it a milder color, it would be great.
... is approach 1 meant to be the *wrong* one? if so, that should be clarified.

<shadi> +1 to clarifying "approach"

Kevin: OK
... is that tip still a good tip?

Shawn: yes as of this week it is affirmed.

<shawn> next: "Write code that adapts to user's technology"

<shawn> example?

<shawn> shadi: maybe not

Shadi: Because of the broadness and complexity of the question, an example may be difficult to create that touches all of these. It may be self-explanatory enough on its own and an example may actually obscure the issue.

<shawn> next: Provide meaning for non-standard interactive elements

<shadi> [[love it!!!]]

Shawn: anything on this open in GitHub?

<shawn> next: Ensure that all interactive elements are keyboard accessible

Shawn: is this example too scary, do we want a simpler one?

<AnnaBelle> Great example!

Shadi: like what?

Shawn: tab index="0" is much simpler than this example

Kevin: But would not necessarily do everything you need.

AnnaBelle: It may not be the most appropriate, I am a bit geeky so maybe there is another approach. But I see this done incorrectly so often, I think it would be quite valuable.

<GeorgeH> I think the example is fine

Shadi: Keyboard issues usually happen because of reading order or scripting. Since reading order is covered elsewhere, it is useful to cover the scripting. In this example, I am not sure which part of this code is most relevant to keyboard, but I do not think we want people adding tab index="0" everywhere.
... we also want to cover more than the basics.

<Andrew> +1 to example - it's neat

open example on markup structure

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/developing.html#use-mark-up-to-convey-meaning-and-structure

Shawn: going back to the open issue, we agreed to swap the order and add info to the html5 example. Any other thoughts about the ARIA example?

Jon: I was wondering why it was OK to use it in one place and not another?

Shawn: There is concern about the attention that the examples are taking up and that fewer and smaller are better. Another point is that the idea of ARIA role search is in the text, does it need an example as well? Another perspective is that people like examples, it is a common mistake, one that is often done poorly.

AnnaBelle: I see search done incorrectly for example in CMS themes, and I find this to be a great example that works on so many levels for me.

<GeorgeH> Keep it

<shawn> gut feeling for now (can change mind later :)

Shawn: keep two examples or remove ARIA one?

<AnnaBelle> Keep it

<Andrew> undecided

Sharron: keep both

<shawn> mildy not because it's too much... but I have an overall issue about example that when addressed may take care of it :-)

<Brent> Support decision of the group - prefer not to comment. not my area of expertise

Shawn: anything else on the developing examples?

Review work for next week

Shawn: Make sure that everyone looks at Writing Tips combined issue soon as possible, Wed at very latest.
... next we had questions on Tips icons. We still need to point folks to the background and will get into survey for next week.
... next is to review changes. Based on input, the changes have been made, please review and comment if needed.
... last week we reviewed the status of the various Getting Started Tips. Designing is wrapping up, after these changes, Writing will be ready for thorough review, next in queue is Developing.
... then we will begin the review of Evaluating. Steps will be to look at draft, are all needed tips inlcuded? anything need to be added? then will rate them as priority and go from there.
... any comments or questions?

Brent: Thanksto Kevin for facilitating access in GitHub

<Andrew> +1 to Github links on page

<AnnaBelle> +1 :-)

<davidberman> +1

Shawn: Anything else today?

Shawn: Appreciate all the good input, I will update work for this week, please review Writing Tips combined as soon as you can. Any comments about WG process? How things are working?

<GeorgeH> its all good!

<shadi> +1 yay shawn - gets work done!

David: Your approach to running meetings is awesome. Great governance of the meeting, I am learning and delighted to be part of it. Look forward to the work we do together.

<GeorgeH> Great to have you

<shawn> [ EOWG is working much better now than we have sometimes int he past ]

<davidberman> You're welcome!

<Andrew> Shawn: Sharron's assistance as Co-Chair has been invaluable this past year :)

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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