Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference -- 06 Aug 2015

<trackbot> Date: 06 August 2015

<MichaelC> meeting: ARIA

<MichaelC> scribe: jongund

<scribe> scribe: jongund

aria-describedat meeting

TOPIC aria-describedat

JS: Some guests will be coming next week

<tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0042.html

JS: They will be providing some examples before the next meeting
... Some publishers will be joining to describe their requirements
... There are some objections, but we will be following up after the meeting to dot all the i's and cross the t's
... Educational laws are requiring accessible books

Test planning

MC: After the august 15th meeting we need to talk about testing
... We need to get to CR within the next few months
... We want to have testing well on its way before going to CR, to make sure there are no suprises
... We plan to continue to use the test harness from ARIA 1.0, need to talk to system admin to get it setup
... We need to prepare test cases and test files for ARIA 1.1
... Rich wants to make this a top priority after aria-describedat
... Anything else on testing?

TPAC FTF meeting

MC: The URL is in the agenda

<MichaelC> TPAC 2015

<MichaelC> Draft ARIA TPAC planning

MC: The ARIA working group is meeting the first part of the meeting (monday and tuesday)
... If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under PF

If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under PF for just monday and tuesday

MC: DIgital publishing might be a topic

JS: HTML5 will be Thursday and Firday

MC: updates the wiki: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
... Might be some overlapping meeting conflicts with DPUB

Tzviya: DPUB meeting comment

JS: Graphics SVG

MC: The SVG working group has cancelled their meeting at TPAC

JS: Probably testing

MC: Two topics: agenda items and meeting with other working groups

JS: I think we have done the working groups

MC: Digital publishing web apps
... The TAG is meeting on mondy and tuesday, we can bring grievances to them

JS: SOme of the WAPPS issues
... The coordinating is getting some time, but we also need agenda topics

MC: Deliverables plan for the upcoming year, the current gant chart is being developed

Tzviya: DPUB has not schedules time with CSS

MC: I updated wiki pages

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA

MC: Register for hotels as soon as possible and get your flights

Tzviya: There maybe better hotel rates than the conference rate

MC: Someone was looking for stuff to do at TPAC, some options were sent to team, I will try to make public
... We need to start looking harder for rich

JS: I will try to contact

RS: TPAC FTF

MC: We have covered that and put some items in the agenda

RS: CSS going to be there?

JS: Thursday and Firday

RS: We need to talk to CSS

JS: Michael can we put that on the wiki page

MC: We just have web apps and digital publishing

RS: Do we know who will attend

Tzviya: Alan will be there

RS: I did not sign up to meet with CSS
... Do I need to resign up for these working groups

JS: Yes indeed, this is not optimal
... You are covered as chiar and facilitator, a very good thing
... Tzviya is also included

RS: Who is coming from PF

Jemma: no

JS: Yes

JRG: no

MC: Yes

RS: We need dominic and someone from apple
... I encourage people to come, exposing a API to applications
... To get where we need to go, there will need to be an API to interoperate with AT, it could also support alt input devices

ICONBUTTON role

RS: Apparently alot of use cses where there are visual icons on the screen, people want people to know they are an icon button role
... A visual symbol versus a text button or other symbols on the screen
... The symbols are often standardized, they are very common in SVG drawing

JG: What would you tell an author

RS: I am not convinced

JG: We already have alot of roles in ARIA what is would you tell authors

RS: I am happy to take that back to the group, I wil take it back to the group

MB: What are the ...

RS: Does anyone object to closing this, having a role of label with an image

Joanie: What will an assistive technology do with this
... We have a role description property that could describe this
... If an AT has to do something different use a role, if it is more descriptive use aria-roledescription

RS: Cogntive will have something related to tasks or functions, like a 'Help" buttons, and this would be standardized across applications
... I don't see it for this example

RESOLUTION: We do not believe there is significant difference ....

JS: No meaningful information to the user

RS: Typing in a proposed resolution

JS: At both ends of the chain we do not see a benefit
... RS drafting a response ...

<richardschwerdtfeger> proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional information to the user when conveyed through accessibility APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y Task force requires more detail on the role they can use the new roledescription attribute which would require translation

<janina> +1

<Jjemma> +1

<MichielBijl> +1

<joanie> +1

RESOLUTION: proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional information to the user when conveyed through accessibility APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y Task force requires more detail on the role they can use the new roledescription...
... attribute which would require translation

<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: close action 1666

Issue 694

Issue 694 aria-busy description does not limit use to live regions but characteristics table and UAIG do limit its use

• https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/694

RS: ... reading issue ...
... It sounds like matt would like to simplify the definition

BG: A lot of people do not understand what it is suppose to do

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy

BG: Signals that the live region is complete and start speaking stuff

RS: You can have sub trees as well

BG: the confusion is AT vendors are considering it hidden

RS: Freedom Scientific had a discussion about that a few weeks ago
... do we want to change the text to live region is still being updated

BG: That sounds good

RS: will we lose something?
... we could start out with that, we could add all the elements of the sub tree

MB: There is valuable info in the current description, multi-part loading, fails to load is also valuable

RS: OK
... Do you want to change the first sentence?

MB: Could indicates the live region is still being updated

RS: DO we want to say the live region is still being updated ...

MB: Yeah
... The default is false does not make sense

RS: Yes it does ...
... That basically says you can dissect the tree

MB: You set aria-busy=false when the last part is loaded

RS: There is no author must
... Change the first sentence to say....

<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: change the first sentence to say: “"Indicates whether a live region is still being updated”

MB: We could lose the the part after ....
... BG said an entire document is not marked up as false

RS: It can be any part of a web page, it does not have to be a widget

JG: Some people want to use this to create their own user experience

RS: There is a company does this for the login

MB: Maybe I am thrown off by the example ... intialized and complete, page thew me off

RS: Change this to element
... Do we need this change?

Joanie: I have opinions when it effect orca or questionable, this is neither to me

JG: SOme people add aria-live regions to menus because they don't understand ARIA

<richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.

<richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully

<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."

<richardschwerdtfeger> The above description is written to apply to any busy element. Yet, the true value definition is:

<richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.

<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."

RS: Is it good enough?

MB: It is better than before

<joanie> widget being updated may be problematic as is

MB: We need to wait for her to call back in

GB: I do not use aria-busy, it does not seem to make a difference

RS: That maybe the AT, we don't want to code to the AT

GB: Users only can interact with what's there

RS: What if there are network traffic problems

GB: SOme people put up please wait

RS: i don't see that used in practice, aria-busy is a global attribute
... If you are waiting for a form to load can put it on the form

<MichielBijl> progressbars can also use aria-busy

GB: The UA explains the association between aria-busy and aria-live in the implementation guide, so there is some confusion to me....

RS: I am looking at perceivable regions, what does it say about ...

GB: It doesn't seem to change any behavior of AT

RS: In the glossary ....

GB: I can send the link later

RS: There is a section on the definition of a live region in the glossary, reads definition...
... The use cases included wdigets
... You should not make a selection until it is all there

GB: If it is unclear to me, it is probably a problem for other people

RS: If you can say a live region or a widget is still being updated is that enough

Joanie: Can I just jump back in

<richardschwerdtfeger> Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.

<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.

Joanie: All the discussion makes sense, my concern is the word "updated", anything can be happening, we need like populated

RS: I like the word populated better

MB: me too

<joanie> proposal: Indicates that a live region is being updated or a widget being populated.

RS: the AT can covey the information to the user

GB: I like populated better

RS: I want to make sure it is clear

Joanie: I have a concern about "multiple parts of the same element" ...
... On the same element

RS: James made the suggestion, if the widget is not fully built ....

Joanie: What if the element is a parent element, with two child elements that are populating, set on parent element

RS: When a widget is missing required owned elements

Joanie: What if it is a form, if the author knows ..... set to true is when the first list box is starting to be loaded and false when the last listbox completes loading

MB: aria-busy should be on the form

Joanie: Sometimes it is not required elements

RS: We need to look at this from an authoring perspective

<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Change the first 2 paragraphs of aria-busy to read as follows: “Indicates that a live region or widget is being populated.

<richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.”

Joanie: I thought we were going to let the APG work with this

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Joanie to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1699 - Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].

RS: We will ask them to review and suggest changes if they want any
... It is better than what we had

<richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1799?

<trackbot> Sorry, but Action-1799 does not exist.

<joanie> action-1699

<trackbot> action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699

<richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1699?

<trackbot> Action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699

Issue 1666: aria-current should be tolerant to user-defined values Alex Surkov

<MichielBijl> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/716

RS: ... reading the issue ...
... Is not aria-current a boolean

<MichielBijl> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-current

Joanie: It started out simple, not there are 5 or 6 different types

GB: It is suppose to support true

MB: ... date, time, true, false...

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current

RS: It is currently tokens
... We want to make this translatable, unless we call it user defined

MB: Do we have examples of custom values

RSL I do not this was alex request

Joanie: I wonder if this related performance
... There is a sanity check of these strings

RS: ... validilty check...
... What he wants it to be is a string....
... If we say these are reserved words, these are predefined values, or let them ....

MB: What is the problem with custom values

RS: ATs don't know what to do with it

MB: Is it a problem for the AT?

RS: If they have not seen it before they .... if something sia step in the process is valuable
... Date token is in a calendar...., we can put the user as a string and then it needs to be translated

Joanie: I like currentfor people didn't like that so now we have tokens
... Where I am going with this is if it is any string than what does it do with it, only need to localize if it is going to speak it
... What is an AT support to do with this?

RS: If it is a page in a list, and you have a page number, ie I am this far into a document
... Bread crumbs is an example of this

Joanie: orca can look at this and say the current page or current step
... These values are programmitically useful

RS: A separate attribute for user translatable...

<joanie> scribe: joanie

<Jjemma> scribe: Jemma

<joanie> scribenick: Jjemma

Joanie: the problem is there is no context for AT, ie. when AT will speak.

RS: no semantics for this aria current

joanie: is not clear where user is at, child or parent component when it says "current"

<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The WAI-ARIA spec. says that user agents SHOULD, NOT MUST, map unknown values to true. The actual value test, for validity, can be passed to accessibility test tools. Additionally, the group feels that unknown values are not programmatically processable by ATs such as notifying the user how far they are along in a breadcrumb list. Additionally, any custom values would require translattion by the author per language making custom values less

<richardschwerdtfeger> valuable to the author and assistive technnology. The group feels that providing custom string values would harm the user experience, consequently we recommond closing the issue.

<joanie> Joanie: I question what will happen if we say the above, because it seems like we're giving permission to not validate the values.

<joanie> Joanie: As a result, I anticipate seeing new and unexpected values for the object attribute associated with aria-current.

<joanie> Joanie: In which case, why bother suggesting validation?

<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technologies.

<MichielBijl> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> +1

<joanie> +1

<janina> +1

<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: change the aria-current text second paragraph to say: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by user agents or assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technol[CUT]

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Joanie: Modify the ARIA spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1700 - Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].

<joanie> trackbot, associate action-1700 with issue-716

<trackbot> action-1700 (Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current) associated with issue-716.

- DRAFT -

Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

06 Aug 2015

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