16:38:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:38:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-irc
16:38:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:38:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:38:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:38:06 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:38:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:38:07 <trackbot> Date: 06 August 2015
16:38:31 <MichaelC> present+ Tzviya_Siegman, Janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, Jemma_Jaeun_Ku, MichaelC, jongund, Michiel
16:38:33 <MichaelC> regrets+ JamesC, Fred
16:38:40 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0004.html
16:38:42 <MichaelC> chair: Rich
16:38:46 <MichaelC> meeting: ARIA
16:39:44 <MichaelC> scribe: jongund
16:39:44 <jongund> scribe: jongund
16:40:05 <MichaelC> topic: aria-describedat meeting
16:40:06 <jongund> TOPIC aria-describedat
16:40:23 <jongund> JS: Some guests will be coming next week
16:40:24 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0042.html
16:40:37 <jongund> JS: They will be providing some examples before the next meeting
16:40:56 <jongund> JS: Some publishers will be joining to describe their requirements
16:41:40 <jongund> JS: There are some objections, but we will be following up after the meeting to dot all the i's and cross the t's
16:41:56 <jongund> JS: Educational laws are requiring accessible books
16:42:23 <jongund> TOPIC: Test planning
16:42:44 <jongund> MC: After the august 15th meeting we need to talk about testing
16:43:02 <jongund> MC: We need to get to CR within the next few months
16:43:23 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan
16:43:29 <jongund> MC: We want to have testing well on its way before going to CR, to make sure there are no suprises
16:44:12 <jongund> MC: We plan to continue to use the test harness from ARIA 1.0, need to talk to system admin to get it setup
16:44:27 <jongund> MC: We need to prepare test cases and test files for ARIA 1.1
16:44:36 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:44:46 <jongund> MC: Rich wants to make this a top priority after aria-describedat
16:44:58 <jongund> MC: Anything else on testing?
16:45:08 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:29 <jongund> TOPIC: TPAC FTF meeting
16:45:40 <jongund> MC: The URL is in the agenda
16:45:50 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/ TPAC 2015
16:46:11 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA Draft ARIA TPAC planning
16:46:52 <jongund> MC: The ARIA working group is meeting the first part of the meeting (monday and tuesday)
16:47:20 <jongund> MC: If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under PF
16:47:44 <jongund> If you are going to just monday and tuesday register under PF for just monday and tuesday
16:48:02 <jongund> MC: DIgital publishing might be a topic
16:48:17 <jongund> JS: HTML5 will be Thursday and Firday
16:48:48 <jongund> MC: updates the wiki: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
16:49:17 <jongund> MC: Might be some overlapping meeting conflicts with DPUB
16:50:11 <jongund> Tzviya: DPUB meeting comment
16:50:23 <jongund> JS: Graphics SVG
16:50:50 <jongund> MC: The SVG working group has cancelled their meeting at TPAC
16:51:06 <jongund> JS: Probably testing
16:51:29 <jongund> MC: Two topics: agenda items and meeting with other working groups
16:51:37 <jongund> JS: I think we have done the working groups
16:52:02 <jongund> MC: Digital publishing web apps
16:52:42 <jongund> MC: The TAG is meeting on mondy and tuesday, we can bring grievances to them
16:52:57 <jongund> JS: SOme of the WAPPS issues
16:53:17 <jongund> JS: The coordinating is getting some time, but we also need agenda topics
16:53:48 <jongund> MC: Deliverables plan for the upcoming year, the current gant chart is being developed
16:54:14 <jongund> Tzviya: DPUB has not schedules time with CSS
16:54:22 <jongund> MC: I updated wiki pages
16:54:31 <jongund> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA
16:55:03 <jongund> MC: Register for hotels as soon as possible and get your flights
16:55:20 <jongund> Tzviya: There maybe better hotel rates than the conference rate
16:55:57 <jongund> MC: Someone was looking for stuff to do at TPAC, some options were sent to team, I will try to make public
16:56:21 <jongund> MC: We need to start looking harder for rich
16:56:31 <jongund> JS: I will try to contact
16:57:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:58:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich
16:58:41 <jongund> RS: TPAC FTF
16:59:02 <jongund> MC: We have covered that and put some items in the agenda
16:59:07 <jongund> RS: CSS going to be there?
16:59:14 <jongund> JS: Thursday and Firday
16:59:22 <jongund> RS: We need to talk to CSS
16:59:34 <jongund> JS: Michael can we put that on the wiki page
16:59:47 <jongund> MC: We just have web apps and digital publishing
16:59:55 <jongund> RS: Do we know who will attend
17:00:10 <jongund> Tzviya: Alan will be there
17:00:21 <jongund> RS: I did not sign up to meet with CSS
17:00:33 <jongund> RS: Do I need to resign up for these working groups
17:00:45 <jongund> JS: Yes indeed, this is not optimal
17:01:03 <jongund> JS: You are covered as chiar and facilitator, a very good thing
17:01:18 <jongund> JS: Tzviya is also included
17:01:32 <jongund> RS: Who is coming from PF
17:01:46 <jongund> Jemma: no
17:01:48 <jongund> JS: Yes
17:01:51 <jongund> JRG: no
17:02:12 <jongund> MC: Yes
17:02:23 <jongund> RS: We need dominic and someone from apple
17:02:49 <jongund> RS: I encourage people to come, exposing a API to applications
17:03:28 <jongund> RS: To get where we need to go, there will need to be an API to interoperate with AT, it could also support alt input devices
17:03:35 <jongund> TOPIC: ICONBUTTON role
17:04:18 <jongund> RS: Apparently alot of use cses where there are visual icons on the screen, people want people to know they are an icon button role
17:04:38 <jongund> RS: A visual symbol versus a text button or other symbols on the screen
17:05:06 <jongund> RS: The symbols are often standardized, they are very common in SVG drawing
17:05:27 <joanie> q+
17:05:32 <tzviya> q+
17:05:45 <jongund> JG: What would you tell an author
17:06:24 <jongund> RS: I am not convinced
17:06:49 <jongund> JG: We already have alot of roles in ARIA what is would you tell authors
17:07:10 <jongund> RS: I am happy to take that back to the group, I wil take it back to the group
17:07:50 <jongund> MB: What are the ...
17:08:16 <tzviya> q-
17:08:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:08:19 <jongund> RS: Does anyone object to closing this, having a role of label with an image
17:08:52 <jongund> Joanie: What will an assistive technology do with this
17:09:12 <jongund> Joanie: We have a role description property that could describe this
17:09:14 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
17:09:43 <jongund> Joanie: If an AT has to do something different use a role, if it is more descriptive use aria-roledescription
17:10:31 <jongund> RS: Cogntive will have something related to tasks or functions, like a 'Help" buttons, and this would be standardized across applications
17:10:52 <jongund> RS: I don't see it for this example
17:10:57 <joanie> q?
17:11:01 <joanie> ack joanie
17:11:31 <jongund> RESOLUTION: We do not believe there is significant difference ....
17:11:53 <jongund> JS: No meaningful information to the user
17:12:03 <jongund> RS: Typing in a proposed resolution
17:12:35 <jongund> JS: At both ends of the chain we do not see a benefit
17:13:40 <jongund> .... RS drafting a response ...
17:13:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional information to the user when conveyed through accessibility APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y Task foce requires more detail on the role they can use the new roledescription attribute which would require translation
17:14:17 <janina> +1
17:14:26 <Jjemma> +1
17:14:27 <MichielBijl> +1
17:14:30 <jongund> +1
17:14:33 <joanie> +1
17:14:57 <jongund> RESOLUTION: 	proposal: We think that there is not signficant additional information to the user when conveyed through accessibility APIs and in fact treating this role different from a button would likely add confusion to the user, consequently, we recommend not introducing an iconbutton role and if SVG A11y Task foce requires more detail on the role they can use the new roledescription...
17:14:59 <jongund> ...attribute which would require translation
17:15:30 <joanie> s/foce/force/
17:15:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/foce/force/
17:15:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: close action 1666
17:17:14 <jongund> TOPIC: Issue 694
17:17:58 <jongund> Issue 694 aria-busy description does not limit use to live regions but characteristics table and UAIG do limit its use
17:18:00 <jongund> •	https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/694
17:18:15 <jongund> RS: ... reading issue ...
17:19:05 <jongund> RS: It sounds like matt would like to simplify the definition
17:19:51 <jongund> MB: A lot of people do not understand what it is suppose to do
17:19:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
17:20:10 <MichielBijl> s/MB/BG
17:20:13 <jongund> MB: Signals that the live region is complete and start speaking stuff
17:20:17 <MichielBijl> s/MB/BG
17:20:26 <jongund> RS: You can have sub trees as well
17:21:07 <jongund> BG: the confusion is AT vendors are considering it hidden
17:21:30 <jongund> RS: Freedom Scientific had a discussion about that a few weeks ago
17:21:47 <jongund> RS: do we want to change the text to live region is still being updated
17:21:56 <jongund> BG: That sounds good
17:22:07 <jongund> RS: will we lose something?
17:22:25 <jongund> RS: we could start out with that, we could add all the elements of the sub tree
17:22:55 <jongund> MB: There is valuable info in the current description, multi-part loading, fails to load is also valuable
17:22:57 <jongund> RS: OK
17:23:08 <jongund> RS: Do you want to change the first sentence?
17:23:25 <jongund> MB: Could indicates the live region is still being updated
17:24:00 <jongund> RS: DO we want to say the live region is still being updated ...
17:24:11 <jongund> MB: Yeah
17:24:30 <jongund> MB: The default is false does not make sense
17:24:36 <jongund> RS: Yes it does ...
17:25:03 <jongund> RS: That basically says you can dissect the tree
17:25:25 <jongund> MB: You set aria-busy=false when the last part is loaded
17:25:38 <jongund> RS: There is no author must
17:25:56 <jongund> RS: Change the first sentence to say....
17:26:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: change the first sentence to say: “"Indicates whether a live region is still being updated”
17:26:34 <jongund> MB: We could lose the the part after ....
17:27:00 <jongund> MB: BG said an entire document is not marked up as false
17:27:20 <jongund> RS: It can be any part of a web page, it does not have to be a widget
17:28:41 <jongund> JG: Some people want to use this to create their own user experience
17:28:55 <jongund> RS: There is a company does this for the login
17:29:43 <jongund> MB: Maybe I am thrown off by the example ... intialized and complete, page thew me off
17:29:55 <jongund> RS: Change this to element
17:30:03 <jongund> RS: Do we need this change?
17:30:43 <jongund> Joanie: I have opinions when it effect orca or crazy stupid, this is neither to me
17:31:07 <joanie> s/crazy stupid/questionable/
17:31:49 <jongund> JG: SOme people add aria-live regions to menus because they don't understand ARIA
17:31:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
17:31:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
17:32:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."
17:32:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> The above description is written to apply to any busy element. Yet, the true value definition is:
17:33:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> "Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
17:33:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
17:33:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true."
17:33:37 <jongund> RS: Is it good enough?
17:33:52 <jongund> MB: It is better than before
17:34:09 <joanie> widget being updated may be problematic as is
17:35:12 <jongund> MB: We need to wait for her to call back in
17:35:40 <jongund> GB: I do not use aria-busy, it does not seem to make a difference
17:35:51 <jongund> RS: That maybe the AT, we don't want to code to the AT
17:36:21 <jongund> GB: Users only can interact with what's there
17:36:43 <jongund> RS: What if there are network traffic problems
17:36:56 <jongund> GB: SOme people put up please wait
17:37:18 <jongund> RS: i don't see that used in practice, aria-busy is a global attribute
17:37:30 <joanie> q+
17:38:14 <jongund> RS: If you are waiting for a form to load can put it on the form
17:38:46 <MichielBijl> progressbars can also use aria-busy
17:38:59 <jongund> GB: The UA explains the association between aria-busy and aria-live in the implementation guide, so there is some confusion to me....
17:39:19 <jongund> RS: I am looking at perceivable regions, what does it say about ...
17:39:39 <jongund> GB: It doesn't seem to change any behavior of AT
17:40:13 <jongund> RS: In the glossary ....
17:40:25 <jongund> GB: I can send the link later
17:40:49 <jongund> RS: There is a section on the definition of a live region in the glossary, reads definition...
17:41:52 <jongund> RS: The use cases included wdigets
17:42:09 <jongund> RS: You should not make a selection until it is all there
17:42:32 <jongund> GB: If it is unclear to me, it is probably a problem for other people
17:42:57 <jongund> RS: If you can say a live region or a widget is still being updated is that enough
17:43:10 <jongund> Joanie: Can I just jump back in
17:43:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> Indicates that a live region or widget is being updated.
17:43:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
17:43:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.
17:44:03 <jongund> Joanie: All the discussion makes sense, my concern is the word "updated", anything can be happening, we need like populated
17:44:16 <jongund> RS: I like the word populated better
17:44:20 <jongund> MB: me too
17:44:44 <joanie> proposal: Indicates that a live region is being updated or a widget being populated.
17:44:52 <jongund> RS: the AT can covey the information to the user
17:45:06 <jongund> GB: I like populated better
17:45:18 <jongund> RS: I want to make sure it is clear
17:45:45 <jongund> Joanie: I have a concern about "multiple parts of the same element" ...
17:45:54 <jongund> Joanie: On the same element
17:46:17 <jongund> RS: James made the suggestion, if the widget is not fully built ....
17:46:59 <jongund> Joanie: What if the element is a parent element, with two child elements that are populating, set on parent element
17:47:30 <jongund> RS: When a widget is missing required owned elements
17:48:37 <jongund> Joanie: What if it is a form, if the author knows ..... set to true is when the first list box is starting to be loaded and false when the last listbox completes loading
17:48:49 <jongund> MB: aria-busy should be on the form
17:49:02 <jongund> Joanie: Sometimes it is not required elements
17:49:20 <jongund> RS: We need to look at this from an authoring perspective
17:49:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Change the first 2 paragraphs of aria-busy to read as follows: “Indicates that a live region or widget is being populated.
17:49:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> The default is that aria-busy is false. If authors know that multiple parts of the same element need to be loaded or modified, they can set aria-busy to true when the first part is loaded, and then set aria-busy to false when the last part is loaded. When a widget is missing required owned elements due to script execution or loading, authors MUST mark a containing element with aria-busy equal to true. For example, until a section of a page is fully
17:49:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy. If there is an error updating the element, author MAY set the aria-invalid attribute to true.”
17:51:15 <jongund> Joanie: I thought we were going to let the APG work with this
17:51:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action Joanie: Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text
17:51:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1699 - Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].
17:51:29 <jongund> RS: We will ask them to review and suggest changes if they want any
17:51:39 <jongund> RS: It is better than what we had
17:52:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1799?
17:52:43 <trackbot> Sorry, but Action-1799 does not exist.
17:52:49 <joanie> action-1699
17:52:49 <trackbot> action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN
17:52:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699
17:52:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action-1699?
17:52:50 <trackbot> Action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- OPEN
17:52:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699
17:54:02 <jongund> TOPIC: Issue 1666: aria-current should be tolerant to user-defined values Alex Surkov
17:54:14 <MichielBijl> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/716
17:55:01 <jongund> RS: ... reading the issue ...
17:55:13 <jongund> RS: Is not aria-current a boolean
17:55:28 <MichielBijl> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-current
17:55:32 <jongund> Joanie: It started out simple, not there are 5 or 6 different types
17:55:43 <jongund> GB: It is suppose to support true
17:55:54 <jongund> MB: ... date, time, true, false...
17:55:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current
17:56:11 <jongund> RS: It is currently tokens
17:56:32 <jongund> RS: We want to make this translatable, unless we call it user defined
17:56:44 <jongund> MB: Do we have examples of custom values
17:56:55 <jongund> RSL I do not this was alex request
17:57:08 <jongund> Joanie: I wonder if this related performance
17:57:24 <jongund> Joanie: There is a sanity check of these strings
17:58:08 <jongund> RS: ... validilty check...
17:58:26 <jongund> RS: What he wants it to be is a string....
17:59:00 <jongund> RS: If we say these are reserved words, these are predefined values, or let them ....
17:59:14 <jongund> MB: What is the problem with custom values
17:59:30 <jongund> RS: ATs don't know what to do with it
17:59:44 <jongund> MB: Is it a problem for the AT?
18:00:14 <jongund> RS: If they have not seen it before they .... if something sia step in the process is valuable
18:00:49 <jongund> RS: Date token is in a calendar...., we can put the user as a string and then it needs to be translated
18:01:23 <jongund> Joanie: I like currentfor people didn't like that so now we have tokens
18:02:24 <jongund> Joanie: Where I am going with this is if it is any string than what does it do with it, only need to localize if it is going to speak it
18:02:38 <jongund> Joanie: What is an AT support to do with this?
18:03:00 <jongund> RS: If it is a page in a list, and you have a page number, ie I am this far into a document
18:03:12 <jongund> RS: Bread crumbs is an example of this
18:03:47 <jongund> Joanie: orca can look at this and say the current page or current step
18:04:16 <jongund> Joanie: These values are programmitically useful
18:04:32 <jongund> RS: A separate attribute for user translatable...
18:05:26 <joanie> scribe: joanie
18:06:21 <Jjemma> scribe: Jemma
18:06:49 <joanie> scribenick: Jjemma
18:08:02 <Jjemma> Joanie: the problem is there is no context for AT, ie. when AT will speak.
18:08:44 <Jjemma> RS: no semantics for this aria current
18:12:04 <Jjemma> joanie: is not clear where user is at, child or parent component when it says "current"
18:15:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The WAI-ARIA spec. says that user agents SHOULD, NOT MUST, map unknown values to true. The actual value test, for validity, can be passed to accessibility test tools. Additionally, the group feels that unknown values are not programmatically processable by ATs such as nofifying the user how far they are along in a breadcrumb list. Additionally, any custom values would require translattion by the author per language making custom values less
18:15:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> valuable to the author and assistive technnology. The group feels that providing custom string values would harm the user experience, consequently we recommond closing the issue.
18:16:04 <MichielBijl> s/nofifying/notifying
18:18:22 <joanie> Joanie: I question what will happen if we say the above, because it seems like we're giving permission to not validate the values.
18:18:55 <joanie> Joanie: As a result, I anticipate seeing new and unexpected values for the object attribute associated with aria-current.
18:19:08 <joanie> Joanie: In which case, why bother suggesting validation?
18:24:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technologies.
18:25:07 <MichielBijl> +1
18:25:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
18:25:12 <joanie> +1
18:25:16 <janina> +1
18:25:17 <Jjemma> +1
18:26:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: change the aria-current text second paragraph to say: The aria-current attribute is an enumerated type. Any value not included in the list of allowed values SHOULD be treated by user agents or assistive technologies as if the value true had been provided. If the attribute is not present or its value is an empty string, the default value of false applies and the aria-current state MUST NOT be exposed by user agents or assistive technol[CUT]
18:26:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joanie: Modify the ARIA spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current
18:26:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1700 - Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-08-13].
18:26:56 <joanie> trackbot, associate action-1700 with issue-716
18:26:56 <trackbot> action-1700 (Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second pagraph for aria-current) associated with issue-716.
18:29:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
18:30:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:30:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/06-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:30:19 <asurkov> asurkov has joined #aria
18:32:10 <Jjemma> it was a good meeting.
18:32:26 <Jjemma> especially thanks to Joanie
18:32:27 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop