Tips for designing

Shawn: We had input last week on several of the examples and I think they were great, good job Kevin. My comment on distraction is mitigated. So take a look, we will leave that survey open if you still want to comment. Kevin posted some questions:

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/74

Shawn: the first one is GitHub #74, take a few minutes to review
... Those who commented in GitHub, anything to add?

Vicki: Since I wasn't here last week, I hesitate, but I find the triangles confusing and found the pie charts easier to understand.

Sharron: It's true, perception is so subjective, I found the triangles more clear.

Howard: I thought the pie charts were pleasant to look at, visually interesting and in that sense might be distracting (although not to me). But I thought they illustrated the concept much more clearly.

Shawn: The fact that it was a test question helped with clarity for me. I liked the triangles but the colors could be less vibrant.

Brent: The triangles are a whole lot better, it made perfect sense to me in terms of the question, the issue. And is it not the vividness of the colors that help make the point. Because they are so vivid, people without color deficits would say "It is obvious" After reading the tip they would understand, the only thing is to improve red in white text for contrast.

Eric: Probably only need one example. If we have two, we need subheadings or some other way to differentiate them.

Shadi: Kevin has been convincing me that two examples are a good example beyond the required fields that graphic presentation also is necessary to consider this issue. Not sure we need to pose it as a question, may just need to highlight the issue "even with images, you must consider..." rather than make the reader think about the puzzle. And make the colors less vivid.

<Eric> +1 to not having it posed as a question.

<shawn> +1 to the puzzle adds cognitive load

<Vicki> ++1 Shadi

<shawn> +1 to Brent that these show the point well

Shadi: just say in this illustration the lables are included to distinguish in a way redundant to color alone.

<Vicki> +1 I like "don't make me think"

Kevin: I included this example for thinking about an alternative real world example where there was a meaningful reason for it. So I worry about removing the question format since that does provide the meaning. We could go back to the pie chart to show only the good version with a brief text explanation.

Shawn: Are there other ideas that you ahve not shared yet?

Kevin: Sure, variations of the pie chart and maps. They are effectively the same as the pie chart, although we considered bar charts but not significantly different.

<Vicki> ;);)

Shadi: It does not make such a difference to me. If we give this good text on the side as long as it is a clear example and can be carried forward and applied to other graphic situations.
... I think we should find an example that is well made, the point is clear, it allows the reader to understand the bigger picture.

Eric: As long as the question form is removed I would be OK with the triangles. The question adds confusion for me.

<shawn> +1 to both inaccessible and accessible

Brent: I feel the same way. I think using the inaccessible as well as the accessible example is important. I look at the inaccessible and say, nothing wrong with that, the right answer is blue, no problem. Then reading the explanation the light goes on and it is powerful. I love how this was put together and think it is just perfect.

Shawn: Positions are: good to have something other than the dull repeptive examples of pie charts and required fields vs the cognitive load of the triangles create a cognitive barrier

Howard: Yes I am OK with the pie charts and would strongly vote against the triangles. However I agree that it is improtant to have both good and bad examples.

<Vicki> can we put it as a vote on the survey?

Shadi: What have we agreed to so far? Brent are you OK with removing the puzzle question/ Having only the graphic with a bit of text explanation?

Shawn: Just the triangles with no context of the test format?

Brent: I am not sure I understand. I don't see the problem with having the question. It is only understandable in context.
... this illustrates that something that seems very simple can be demonstrated to be inaccessible. Looking for an answer to the question and understanding that it is only clear to people who see color makes the whole thing work.
... I am OK if people move in another direction, but in this case it needs all components to be there.

<yatil> +1 to Brent

<Howard> +1 to Brent

Shadi: I appreciate your explanation and am happy to drop it.

Shawn: One issue is to show the inaccessible as well as accessible versions. There is a clear decision that whatever the example, we show both. Any objection?
... next is question of whether to use triangle with the test question. Are now OK with that?

Shadi: OK

Vicki: Supposing I am color blind and going through this, is it insensitive in the way it is presented?

Shawn: My guess is that people who are color blind would be OK since it is helping people understand this is a problem.

Vicki: OK then I am OK to go in the direction you suggest

Shawn: You may want to check the colors themselves.

Kevin: There were comments about toning down the colors and I will do that to see if we can create more of a problem.

Brent: The color choice should not really matter.

Shawn: And in this case it would be good to choose colors that actually do cause known problems with color blindness.

<Vicki> ++1 keep it

Shawn: Next question is whether to retain the required field example?

<Vicki> ++1 strong

<egyrs> +1

<Howard> +1 to keep fields example

<shawn> slight preference for not having it

<Lydia> keep

<yatil> +0.2

<Brent> I am okay either way

Subtopic: Suggested new examples for headings

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/107

Howard: In this case it seems it would help to show what a page looks like with and without headings. I like examples. Lack of spacing, block of text, etc for the bad example contrasted with one that does have headings.
... bulleted list for example.

Sharron:This one seems pretty hard to do in a short example.

Howard: To see an example, see the headings examples.

Sharron: Maybe look at that section of EasyChecks

Shadi: It is an interesting idea especially for visual people. The big block of text vs version broken up and more manageable

Shawn: My first thought is that it would take a lot of space for the example on the other hand it could be a compelling example. Maybe if we don't even try to make it readable. Could have good before and after with white space and proximity that also illustrates that.

Kevin: To avoid making it readable, could use lines to indicate content.

Shawn: Would want to show more than headings, want to include white space.

Kevin: It would be fairly quick and easy, I think there is value in examples, so I will go for it.

RESOLUTION: Draft example for use headings and spacing
... Leave required feild example, leave test question example, leave both before and after examples, tweak color choice to be less attention-grabbing and more aligned with known colors that cause barriers.

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/69

SubTopic: Veiwport sizes

Shawn: Two issues, whether the tip was needed and what to put in Learn More

Kevin: Not to remove the tip but whether to refer to any SC

Shawn: Then it needs to be worked in collaboration with Mobile TF?

Kevin: maybe but this is not normative work so it is not really a problem that has no reference to any SC

Shawn: Given the time, let's get input from technical perspective and come back to it.

SubTopic: Tip on alt text

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/78

Shawn: There is more support for leaving the tip, Eric thinks it doesn't belong here but can live with it.

Lydia: Even though it is not part of a designer responsibility, they should be aware and understand the concept and understand the significance of having alt text for images.

Shawn: Do we want to explain a bit more about the fact that they are passing alt text along to a developer?

<Vicki> +1

Sharron: It seems strange to me now that we are putting this into a role in which the designer has no real responsibility.

<shawn> Shawn: designer is the one who knows best the purpose of the image for the content. developer is just coding

<Vicki> +1 Shawn

<Lydia> +1 Shawn

Vicki: The designer knows the purpose of the image and so it is important for the designer to have an understanding of this. People often don't have the divisions between designer/developer. So because of the importance of the place of graphics on the web, this is important.

Kevin: It is not a Tip for a designer but a tip for designing (more general) Providing tips for an activity, not a role. I wonder when we start mentioning and referencing how content is used will we be talking more about coding and that may not be relelvant here.

Lydia: I have been in a role where I have had to train people to do and why it is important to have alt text for images.

Shawn: Can we have consensus that we do have the tip?

Shadi: Last week when we discussed this, the suggestion was to have a tip that is specifically tweaked to the action of designing. This seems exactly the same tip we would put in Writing or Content Authoring...

<shawn> [ Shawn's point was not that it might be missed, but that the designer is the best to write it... (although maybe authoring is better)]

Shadi: people seem to want to have it because it might be missed and it is important. My concern is rising aobut the relevance of this in this context. Can we not align the tip more closely to the designing activity. What is the priority of this related to the other tips.

Shawn: We can ask, is the writing task or the designing task the best place for this?

<shawn> http://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/writing.html

Shadi: In the design process, this would be a template, a placeholder or decorative. It is at the content part of the process that a meaningful image would be added. The author might ask the designer to create an image in which case, the author is the one giving meaning to the image.

Shawn: looking at writing, we can simplify by leaving the reference to alt text here.

Vicki: I am not at all comfortable with that. I can understand that the author has some responsibility. If we do not refer within the Design, we are leaving out something very important.

Shadi: Do you think this is an issue within design that most people would identify with?

Vicki: there is the option to outsource design, but there are also situations where the user interface design and template creation crosses different roles and activities.
... there are logos, icons, and other broader situations that require understanding.

Shadi: The aspect of buttons, logos, icons are good ones but I do not see that addressed here in the design Tip.

<shawn> [ Shawn now leaning to having it in the writing only -- which focuses on content & information, instead of visual ]

<shawn> sharron: OK with having a reference?

Shawn: in the Learn More section of the Design section might be the place to contextualize and make explicit mention and point to images tutorial

Sharron: I move toward having a separate tip but make it quite short and more of an awareness rather than action tip

Shadi: If this tip is more tweeked to the aspects of buttons, icons, logo...making the designer more aware of those considerations
... check in with Kevin and Eric

Shawn: I had previously submitted examples like the ones in EasyChecks of magnifying glass. or the BAD example of the CityLights logo

Shadi: yes that would make more sense.

Vicki: I would like that

<Vicki> +1 yay

RESOLUTION: Short tip, related to design considerations, succinct and focused

<shawn> https://github.com/w3c/wai-quick-start/issues/71

Subtopic: New tip on users controlling movement

Shawn: Initial thoughts?

<Howard> +1 to include it

<Sharron> +1 +1

<Vicki> +1 (simple version)

<shadi> +0.3141592653589793238462643383279502884197...

<Vicki> already too many

<shadi> +1 to rating!

Shawn: Thanks everyone for your attention to all this detail. We will do a big picture look and rate the tips for priority. We'd like for the next one on Writing, first look at overall tips, do we have the right priorities, etc...

Work for next week

Shawn: Step 1 is to look at tips that are there, any that need to be deleted or added and then rate them in priority.
... make sense?
... I continue to think this will be one of our most useful resources. Thanks for all your input

QuickRef v 8

<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/8

Shawn: Would like to get agreement on major things so Eric can keep moving forward. Minor tweaks are not an issue now but consider the major directional momentum. Layout, columns, position of filter options, etc?

<yatil> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35532/EOWG-7July2015/results#xq4

Eric: The survey results so far indicate there is wide support for continuing along this route. So speak up with any objections because I am really looking forward to getting into development of this resource.

Shawn: Rather than going though each of the sections, shall we just look at the points made?

Eric: We have checkboxes to choose levels, etc, there was a comment about the heading of the SC and coloring of it
... if anyone has strong opinion, I am happy to discuss
... comment to add more white space and I will look into that.

<shawn> 'status notifaction bar" https://github.com/w3c/wai-wcag-quickref/issues/18

Eric: status notification bar, I had some progress bar animation. I did not mean to make you dizzy, Vicki. The change was quick and there were timing suggestions and have added a 1 second fade. Will add same animation for other filtering options.

<Vicki> txs yatil

Brent: In FF it will not show the flash/fade more than twice unless I reload the page.

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say (after others comment) and to say reset -> clear not read and to say Gv hat

Brent: I like this solution better than the progess bar. Thanks Kevin for bringing it up and good job addressing it , Eric

<shadi> just "clear"?

Shawn: The reset button should not be red. Why reset rather than clear filters?
... The main thing is from the previous QuickRef, one of the big concerns was if someone is given a link to this with filters applied, it is important that they understand what is NOT shown.
... previously there was a list of what was hidden. Can we balance this against the need for not being intrusive but also making sure that people understand that they have filtered out some infomraiton. Also, consider what happens when this gets printed.
... on the printed version we add an even more clear notice of the fact that some is filtered out.

Shadi: The notification bar sits on tp and is always present. it is quite difficult to miss. We can work on what to put within it. Even for printing CSS would allow us to pring this on each page.

<shawn> +1 for introduction info somehow -- maybe collapseable or linked to or something

<Lydia> I need to leave. I'll review the meeting notes. Have a great day!

Eric: I am not really convinced that we need a lot of text on there. It would change the nature of the tool and not be as appraent that it is customizable. Maybe an overlay on first access but I prefer to make it more modern. There is no longer the need for so much explanatory text.

Shadi: we need something, even if hidden. Some text will be needed I think.

Shawn: Historically there were fairly strong reasons for including the text. We can revisit the rationale and I think some of it is still relevant and should check with EO and probably WCAG as well. Thanks Eric for the fine work it is looking awesome. We have a resolution to go forward with this design direction. I will send another survey around as a last chance.
... anything else for now? Thanks all for good work, I appreciate how we work together as a group.

Shadi: The Showcase TF?

Shawn: We have lost several people can we table until next week?

Shadi: Sure. let's do that?

trackbot, end meeting

<Vicki> -Vicki

<shawn> rrsgent, draft minutes