See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 09 April 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html
<scribe> scribe: matt_king
RS: what is the current status of further discussion?
Janina: Suzanne will come on this call
RS: I would like to see more than 1 company represented
JC: What is Suzanne's view?
Janina: She is strongly in support.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html
RS: any objections to this going
to 1st publicworking draft?
... Important to move this forward
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
Janina: if no objections, I will put out CFC
<janina> +1
<fesch> +1
<joanie> +1
<LJWatson> +1
JN: Still concerned about role
multiplication
... And being confused for those not in publishing
RS: Separate module so not everyone has to consume
JN: Concerned about some of the
names, e.g., title
... Might be generally useful but wouldn't want to casll it
title
RS: Also have similar concern
JN: Abstract is another role that is not sensible
JC: I object to that one as
well.
... should work these issues out before public working
draft.
... Pull out the ones that are less solid
RS: Or just put issue under them
JC: Rather not put them out if they have issues
RS: Is there a list of those that are contentious?
JC: In a quick glance I found several that are problematic
JN: For abstract, we could either change name or remove all abstract roles
JC: We could change in 1.1, but could be major point of confusion
RS: Surprised at that level of confusion over that role.
JC: people publishing epubs
understand that role without issue.
... General web developers are instructed in the spec not to
use abstract roles so having a role named abstract will be
confusing to them.
<LJWatson> +1 to JC.
<clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/dpub.html#role_definitions
<clown> +1 to JC
Janina: not sure I agree that we have to have only one definition per term
Joanie: There will not be prefixes, right?
RS: yes
Joanie: These roles will show up in non-dpub content, right?
RS: publishing industry very clear they do not want name-spaced roles
Joanie: If I am making web app as non-publsiher, anything stopping me from using them?
RS: browser would have to support them
JC: rendering engine is same for browser and reader
RS: James are you wanting to lay in front of the publishing industry on the name space issue?
JC: I have objected every chance
I have had; was not in room when decision was made.
... I wouldn't characterize as laying down in front of them,
but I have big concerns
RS: They wanted hyphens but I didn't want that
JC: They were willing to have
hyphens but not as a prefix separator?
... that doesn't make sense
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
JC: Enumerated what he thought DPUB objections were to name space prefixes
<richardschwerdtfeger> dpub-footnote
RS: they do not want to do that either
MK: instead of prefixes, could we just make some of the role names longer? eg, docabstract instead of abstract?
RS: perhaps
JC: Recommend starting with names
more like dpub-abstract, then later
... if we think the role is generally useful, we could
integrate into main aria spec as the same role definition but
diff name, e.g., dpub-abstract might map to summary.
RS: do we need to strip the contentious roles from the working draft
JC: Either that or very clear editorial notes
RS: Recommend we do not yet do
working draft
... we need to define the issues first
JC: another way is no hyphen, e.g., dpubabstract, dpubchapter
Janina: James, can you join a call with them?
RS: not good time; 8 am thursday for James
JC: my scheudle is very challenging right now, even making these calls is difficult
<asurkov> joanie, I didn’t really think about naming
RS/JC: working out schedule
Settling on noon central on Wed, apr 22
for DPUB and James on same call.
Janina: holding 1st working draft up for that call?
RS: yes
... I am not sure we should take 1st wd that seriously, but
definitely need to log issues.
JC: 1st public wd is like first call for implementation; very important.
MC: Will sned out code the day before.
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0109.html
Joanie: Last week conclusion
thought we were close to text ready
... would update and just ask for review then we would
merge
action-1349?
<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
<richardschwerdtfeger> Use aria-labelledby
<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use aria-label
<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the associated label element
<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the placeholder attribute
<richardschwerdtfeger> Otherwise use the title attribute
<richardschwerdtfeger> If none of the above yield a usable text string there is no accessible
<richardschwerdtfeger> name
RS: we will have to talk about placeholder in name calc
Joanie: yes, but that is independent of the spec text
<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0060.html
Joanie: reading spec text
<joanie> action-1349
<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
RS: like the shorter, simpler text regarding empty strings.
JC: +`1
<joanie> Option 1 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text
<joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string."
Joanie: pasting in 2 options for the text.
<joanie> Option 2 is: "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text
<joanie> at any time the control's Value is the empty string., including when the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."
<jcraig> #1 is my preference. and if the extra clarity is required, add it add a separate (non-normative) editorial note
<richardschwerdtfeger> Any objection to adopting Option 1?
CS: like option 1 better.
Joseph: how about an option 3?
Option 1 + an example that includes part of option 2.
Janina: Would it be a separate note?
Joseph: thinking it would just be a separate sentence.
<clown> "Authors SHOULD present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text at any time the control's Value is the empty string. This includes cases where the control first receives focus, and when users remove a previously entered value."
JC: keep the normative sentence shorter.
<jcraig> +1
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
<fesch> +1
CS: like any of them.
RESOLUTION: use option 3.
<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0112.html
<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0113.html
Joanie: Reading/describing 2
different example of placeholder use
... Proposal, use Joseph's example but have 2 version, one
before and one after user input
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention we could add the script
CS: Should have note pointing people to html placeholder
<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to agree with what joanie just said.
JC: We see lots of use of custom placeholder because authors do not like dbrowser animations
rs: in interest of moving fwd, people OK with Joanie updating spec
Joanie: I like Joseph's example, and I wil wrap it up.
RS: I will be at html working
group f2f
... should we have meeting next week?
... next meeting in 2 weeks?
... no meeting next week then.
RESOLUTION: next meeting on Apr 23
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Mozilla/DPUB/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: mattking Found Scribe: matt_king Default Present: +1.416.848.aaaa, Fred_Esch, janina, Matt_King, LJWatson, Michael_Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Alexander_Surkov, Joanmarie_Diggs Present: +1.416.848.aaaa Fred_Esch janina Matt_King LJWatson Michael_Cooper Rich_Schwerdtfeger Alexander_Surkov Joanmarie_Diggs Found Date: 09 Apr 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/09-aria-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]