<Jemma> jemma

<Jemma> +jemma

<Jemma> aabb is me

<mattking> agenda:

<mattking> Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the

<mattking> following if you have the opportunity to do so.

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitte

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox

<mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#autocomplete

sorry I am late

<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter

MK: TOPIC: Windows splitter

windowsplitter

MK: The keyboard section, the description seems incomplete

JH: Minimize it to hide one of the panes, variable size is being able to drag left and right to make it bigger or smaller

JN: Keyboard interaction note

MK: I am not sure about control+F6, it has gained some implementation,....
... Where does it come from?

JN: I ahve never seen it implemented

Bir: I have not seen it

MK: There are other editorial stuff too

JN: I am going to file a bug

AA: Why is F6 optional?

MK: Because it is
... In some cases you just tab, but F6 does not go between main content and other sections

JN: If there are alot of links it becomes a big deal

MK: one window or two windows, two areas

JN: It is associated with the one that minimizes, the one it controls, the other one just gets bigger or smaller

MK: Visually it is a line between two windows?

JN: yes

MK: If it has a visible title, would that not be best practices
... I would have put the labelledby language, put in the new region text
... Use visible headings when they are present

AA: Roles, states and properties use .....

MK: What does label text on the splitter mean?

AA: reading definition from spec....

MK: Is there text on the splitter?

JN: There could be
... Normally an image or an icon
... More text is redundant, where it si text or not is not relavent

AA: Label the splitter ...

MK: So whent hey say splitters are expandable and contractable is that ...
... I don't understand how the splitter exapnding, but the window may ...

JN: If you exapnd it you collapse it, vise versa, this is wrong!
... Home and end are not the right controls to do this, I have never seen this
... With a mouse you click on the splitter

BG: If you double click it will expand or collapse, we are both trying to understand how it works

MK: It is not a button...., I don't know how ...., notion of what enter would do is ambigious

JN: Expand it by activating it

MK: Any other you expact to do it with the enter key

JN: It would need to have the aria-expanded state on it

MK: Does it look like a tiny line

JN: vertical or horizontal .... to expand it, I have seen it done differently

MK: Maximize and minimize

JN: You can only get it to its maximize it through dragging, typically you don't make them as big as you can

MK: There are not very many informaitn on the the current size

JN: It is helpful to hide complexity, you can minimize it it takes it out of the model

MK: I have used that

JN: the sizing you can see the stuff you want to see, the only time is during screen sharing and screen shots
... Low vision....

Bir: If something is slightly smaller, or made availabel in menus, if you expand it....

JN: Do we have any conclusions

MK: We should delete the control+f6...

JN: It is optional, there is no down side to doing it, it could be useful
... F6 would be a shortcut

AA: I have had to take it out, if they are already implemented it

JN: Extra stuff is not a problem
... it is not harmful

MK: That is what I am questioning, there are alot of patterns we have not visited yet, will this be a problem with other widgets
... One of the area is navigation among sibling regions

AA: I don't see it causes harm if focus is on the splitter

BG: It only works when focus is on the splitter

JN: F6 is what the browser uses between frames, so that one is quite reasonable
... I am torn, since very few people will do it, ...

MK: Recommended practices, if we do not believe strongly we should take it out, these keys might be more valuable somewhere elese

BG: They could be the basic keystrokes, we could more clearly delineate between basic, best practices....

JN: F6 is a much stronger, we leave them all muddies the waters

MK: It is kind of interesting that F6 is mentioned

JN: I want F6 here, we really need it
... Depends on the application for the other keys

MK: What does F6 do on iOS, nothing on my keyboard
... Totally depends on the keyboard
... Seems stand to have a strongly recommended versus a weakly recommended
... Are there some conditions where the recommendation would be a stronger recommendation? I can't think of any
... If F6 stays optional, then I think we should get rid of the other ones

JN: Yes

BG: yes

MK: The tab key will get you to the splitter
... Note about the context menu for restore

JN: what context menu

MK: There is a note here

<mattking> Note: The group recommends that a splitter "default position restore" option be available in a context menu.

<mattking> note end

MK: Are you recommend that we delete?

JN: I am not opposed

AA: context menu

JN: I can's see people implementing that

MK: Perhaps the not should be deleted

AA: I don't think devs will muck around with the context menu
... Plateform/browser specific

MK: So leave the home and end key in then?

JN: We can leave them
... I have not heard maximize to be a use case

BG: Max and span appropriately ...

JN: Make those optional

BG: I like it, developers are confused with keyboard support

MK: Left and right, up and down ..., is there a bi-directional splitter?

JN: no such thing

MK: I will design one

JN: I would not advise anyone to do that

JS: How would you tell it is 90 degrees..

JN: summarizing

<jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28084

Listbox

<jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox

Bir: It does not mention check..., there no ...

MK: Does option support check?

Bir: Yes

JN: It does

MK: So that is good

JN: It even says checkbox, ... why until now

MK: From an aria stand point there is no checkbox

Bir: Checkable item

JN: whats the defference between checked and selected?

Bir: Single select you can ....

MK: Checkable options are used with the selection model uses SPACE bar
... If you use SHIFT+ARROW then you use select
... Some list boxes only work that way
... Some list boxes you can just use the space bar
... There are some list boxes that support both, never seen one

BG: There are recommended keyboard shortcuts, is it up to the implementer, it is strange no keyboard

AA: Like ALT++DOWN ARROW?

MK: Checkable option thing is not discussed

LW: I am not sure I fully understand the difference

Bir: Selected follows... you can have something checked on single select... a list of 5 options on number 3, option 1 is checked

MK: Selection follows focus model
... I didn't think select should be used in combination with checked

Bir: you may not, but they do work together....

LW: Use case to select things on a list box

MK: It is just another selection model, you don't have to hold down any keys when selecting

LW: Is it a use firendly design pattern?

JN: It really depends on single select or multi-select..
... I have seen both

MK: I have seen it alot, especially like in when your selecting a set of objects in like a file system....

LW: OK yeah

JN: Columns in a databse

MK: I was thinking of more like a tree, but it can be done in a list box

JN: the thing that is confusing me, is what if theck and select are true

MK: We should do one of two things, say there is two different selection models, and recommend people always use select, unless people feel we should also encourage people use checked for some purpose

Bir: Most people will be using aria-select, but we should have partically selected example

MK: We need to change the wording
... I have a basic quesion, if you come to a list box focus should go to the selected item

JN: It should

LW: it should

JN: If there is nothing selected, what should happen, first item?

MK: If it is not selected I am not sure it should be the first item

Bir: it doesn't actually select anything, you have to arrow in

BG: Something I ...

<jamesn> Tab: When recieves focus, move focus to the first item with aria-selected="true". If nothing is selected then move focus to the first item and, optionally, select the item depending on functionality desired.

MK: I would change these when a list is tabbed to..., a list receives focus that ....

JN: Reads an updated working....

MK: Except for the first time..., you are thinking of the multi-select

Bir: Even if it is multi-select you still have to arrow

MK: If one is alrady selected, the selected item is focused
... It one or more items, the first selected option should get focus

AA: That is for multi select

JN: It should be the one the user actually selected, but I am not expecting developers to track that

AA: Unless something ius selected by default, i.e not user action

BG: First one is the safest bet

JG: Carousels are using horizontal list boxes

JN: I hate them

<jamesn> "pain"

MK: It depends on what are in your carousels, if you have mutliple items, pane, then table liet works well, tablist controls rotation

LW: There is work being done on an HTML5 extension to create native elements for creating carousels, tabs etc.

MK: Listbox is not the greatest choice

Bir: Tablist is better

JN: Perhaps LISTBOX needs an orientation
... If people are using it for it

BG: Horizontal select
... I guess you could

Bir: ... horizontal...

MK: Conceptually maybe we should think about it
... The roles and the design patterns is to communicate the interaction pattern, regardless of visual rendering
... Bir: it is horizontal, keyboard only users will not expect to use up and down

JN: Just like with slider, we can do up/down and left/right

MK: Tablist we need to support orientation?

AA: they can be

JN: Carousel

LW: Carousel is a different design pattern

MK: It depends on the carousel...
... In some cases there are panes

Bir: If you orientation on listbox, it will be on a lot of other things

JN: You may or may not, a multi-selctable carousel hurts my brain

MK: I was thinking of something that works like a listbox....,into a menubar...., maybe make a toolbar of checkboxes

JN: Or toggle button

MK: Toolbar full of checkboxes

AA: Put the work optional...

JN: When something is optional people will not do it

MK: The boundary is 7 or more then use a listbox

Bir: I get confused is partial match, thet could be optional
... Should we make that optional, people to type multiple letters

MK: County/city and they all start with country
... Are you going to type Yugo... an then space

JN: Menu will now search text anywhere

MK: Lotus notes does that, one good feature
... Break it into two separate bullets?

Bir: yes

BG: Full screen, incredibly hard to do that

JN: Auto complete pattern

Bir: That was my comment

AA: 50+ us states and you have to type T twice

JN: What about states that start with N
... Can we finish this one off?

MK: More than seven should support first letter navigation

JN: The second bullet point needs editing

MK: I was going to say the same thing

AA: WHat does up and down need eidting

JN: I meant thrid

MK: I have never used SHIFT+SPACE

JN: it is normal...

BG: It is cool

MK: I have never heard of this

JN: You have to be careful

LW: arrow key gets everything in its path

JN: Drop it?

MK: I have never seen it work, but I have not tried it, how does mouse clicking work

AA: I think we should not remove shift+space

BG: i think it is great

MK: Do we need to put an note in about partial selection, then use checkable options, rather than partial select

JN: How can one be partially selected?

MK: Then it becomes a tree

BG: I have seen this on windows apps, we have checkable options, the checkable options support different states, ....

JN: What does it mean to partially select ...

BG: Use space bar to move between states

JN: I still don't get it

BG: describes an interaction....

AA: I see this use pattern in installed

MK: it is not a tree, there could be a set of options..., four different categories of things, .....

rrsagent minutes, drat

rrsagent minutes, draft

<jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28085

<MichaelC> meeting: ARIA APG

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/There are some HTML5 widgets/There is work being done on an HTML5 extension to create native elements for creating carousels, tabs etc./
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: jongund
Inferring Scribes: jongund
Default Present: +1.512.459.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb, LJWatson, annabbott, Jemma, janina, Jon_Gunderson, +1.919.607.aacc, Birkir, Bryan_Garaventa
Present: +1.512.459.aaaa James_Nurthen Matt_King +1.217.244.aabb LJWatson annabbott Jemma janina Jon_Gunderson +1.919.607.aacc Birkir Bryan_Garaventa
Got date from IRC log name: 23 Feb 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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