17:55:49 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 17:55:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-irc 17:56:07 zakim, this will be 92473 17:56:07 ok, LJWatson; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 17:56:23 Meeting: ARIA APG teleconf 17:56:35 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 17:58:51 WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started 17:58:57 + +1.512.459.aaaa 17:59:43 annabbott has joined #aria-apg 18:00:23 +[IPcaller] 18:00:48 rrsagent, make minutes 18:00:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson 18:01:21 jamesn has joined #aria-apg 18:01:27 +James_Nurthen 18:01:31 +Matt_King 18:02:10 rrsagent, make minutes 18:02:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 18:02:20 Jemma has joined #aria-apg 18:02:34 mattking has joined #aria-apg 18:03:13 rrsagent, make log world 18:03:14 + +1.217.244.aabb 18:03:22 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 18:03:22 +LJWatson; got it 18:03:24 rrsagent, make minutes 18:03:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn 18:03:35 zakim, who is on the phone? 18:03:35 On the phone I see +1.512.459.aaaa, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb 18:03:37 zakim, who is on the call? 18:03:38 On the phone I see +1.512.459.aaaa, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb 18:03:42 +??P6 18:03:43 jemma 18:04:33 zakim, aaaa is Ann Abbott 18:04:33 I don't understand 'aaaa is Ann Abbott', annabbott 18:04:57 +jemma 18:04:59 zakim, aaaa is me 18:05:00 +annabbott; got it 18:05:05 aabb is me 18:05:08 janina has joined #aria-apg 18:05:17 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:05:17 On the phone I see annabbott, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb, ??P6 18:05:23 zakim, aabb is Jemma 18:05:23 +Jemma; got it 18:05:28 zakim, ??P6 is me 18:05:28 +janina; got it 18:07:00 agenda: 18:07:01 Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the 18:07:03 following if you have the opportunity to do so. 18:07:04 Agenda+ windowsplitter 18:07:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitte 18:07:07 Agenda+ Listbox 18:07:09 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox 18:07:10 Agenda+ autocomplete 18:07:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#autocomplete 18:08:19 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:08:42 +Jon_Gunderson 18:08:49 sorry I am late 18:09:35 zakim, who's here? 18:09:35 On the phone I see annabbott, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, Jemma, janina, Jon_Gunderson 18:09:37 On IRC I see jongund, janina, mattking, Jemma, jamesn, annabbott, RRSAgent, Zakim, LJWatson, MichaelC, trackbot 18:09:52 rrsagent, make minutes 18:09:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html janina 18:10:23 + +1.919.607.aacc 18:10:40 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter 18:10:43 MK: TOPIC: Windows splitter 18:10:51 zakim, take up item 1 18:10:51 agendum 1. "windowsplitter" taken up [from mattking] 18:11:00 zakim, aacc is Birkir 18:11:00 +Birkir; got it 18:11:30 Birkir has joined #aria-apg 18:11:37 MK: The keyboard section, the description seems incomplete 18:13:00 JH: Minimize it to hide one of the panes, variable size is being able to drag left and right to make it bigger or smaller 18:13:12 JN: Keyboard interaction note 18:13:41 MK: I am not sure about control+F6, it has gained some implementation,.... 18:13:50 MK: Where does it come from? 18:13:59 JN: I ahve never seen it implemented 18:14:24 Bir: I have not seen it 18:14:38 MK: There are other editorial stuff too 18:14:46 JN: I am going to file a bug 18:14:56 AA: Why is F6 optional? 18:15:01 MK: Because it is 18:15:27 MK: In some cases you just tab, but F6 does not go between main content and other sections 18:15:43 JN: If there are alot of links it becomes a big deal 18:15:54 MK: one window or two windows, two areas 18:16:26 JN: It is associated with the one that minimizes, the one it controls, the other one just gets bigger or smaller 18:16:44 MK: Visually it is a line between two windows? 18:16:49 JN: yes 18:16:50 +Bryan_Garaventa 18:17:14 MK: If it has a visible title, would that not be best practices 18:17:59 MK: I would have put the labelledby language, put in the new region text 18:18:14 MK: Use visible headings when they are present 18:18:14 bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg 18:18:25 AA: Roles, states and properties use ..... 18:18:43 MK: What does label text on the splitter mean? 18:18:52 zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa 18:18:52 ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa 18:19:01 AA: reading definition from spec.... 18:19:11 MK: Is there text on the splitter? 18:19:17 JN: There could be 18:19:26 JN: Normally an image or an icon 18:19:50 JN: More text is redundant, where it si text or not is not relavent 18:19:56 AA: Label the splitter ... 18:20:27 MK: So whent hey say splitters are expandable and contractable is that ... 18:21:10 MK: I don't understand how the splitter exapnding, but the window may ... 18:21:32 JN: If you exapnd it you collapse it, vise versa, this is wrong! 18:21:48 JN: Home and end are not the right controls to do this, I have never seen this 18:22:03 JN: With a mouse you click on the splitter 18:22:26 BG: If you double click it will expand or collapse, we are both trying to understand how it works 18:22:56 MK: It is not a button...., I don't know how ...., notion of what enter would do is ambigious 18:23:12 JN: Expand it by activating it 18:23:34 MK: Any other you expact to do it with the enter key 18:23:48 JN: It would need to have the aria-expanded state on it 18:23:56 MK: Does it look like a tiny line 18:24:21 JN: vertical or horizontal .... to expand it, I have seen it done differently 18:24:30 MK: Maximize and minimize 18:25:20 JN: You can only get it to its maximize it through dragging, typically you don't make them as big as you can 18:26:24 MK: There are not very many informaitn on the the current size 18:27:18 JN: It is helpful to hide complexity, you can minimize it it takes it out of the model 18:27:26 MK: I have used that 18:27:58 JN: the sizing you can see the stuff you want to see, the only time is during screen sharing and screen shots 18:28:05 JN: Low vision.... 18:28:47 Bir: If something is slightly smaller, or made availabel in menus, if you expand it.... 18:28:57 JN: Do we have any conclusions 18:29:10 MK: We should delete the control+f6... 18:29:39 JN: It is optional, there is no down side to doing it, it could be useful 18:29:55 JN: F6 would be a shortcut 18:30:08 AA: I have had to take it out, if they are already implemented it 18:30:21 JN: Extra stuff is not a problem 18:30:33 JN: it is not harmful 18:31:03 MK: That is what I am questioning, there are alot of patterns we have not visited yet, will this be a problem with other widgets 18:31:34 MK: One of the area is navigation among sibling regions 18:31:51 AA: I don't see it causes harm if focus is on the splitter 18:32:12 BG: It only works when focus is on the splitter 18:32:35 JN: F6 is what the browser uses between frames, so that one is quite reasonable 18:33:02 JN: I am torn, since very few people will do it, ... 18:33:46 MK: Recommended practices, if we do not believe strongly we should take it out, these keys might be more valuable somewhere elese 18:34:26 BG: They could be the basic keystrokes, we could more clearly delineate between basic, best practices.... 18:34:47 JN: F6 is a much stronger, we leave them all muddies the waters 18:35:18 MK: It is kind of interesting that F6 is mentioned 18:35:31 JN: I want F6 here, we really need it 18:35:44 JN: Depends on the application for the other keys 18:36:06 MK: What does F6 do on iOS, nothing on my keyboard 18:36:22 MK: Totally depends on the keyboard 18:36:55 MK: Seems stand to have a strongly recommended versus a weakly recommended 18:37:30 MK: Are there some conditions where the recommendation would be a stronger recommendation? I can't think of any 18:37:50 MK: If F6 stays optional, then I think we should get rid of the other ones 18:37:56 JN: Yes 18:38:02 BG: yes 18:38:16 MK:The tab key will get you to the splitter 18:38:27 MK: Note about the context menu for restore 18:38:32 JN: what context menu 18:38:38 MK: There is a note here 18:38:57 Note: The group recommends that a splitter "default position restore" option be available in a context menu. 18:38:59 note end 18:39:42 MK: Are you recommend that we delete? 18:39:49 JN: I am not opposed 18:39:54 AA: context menu 18:40:03 JN: I can's see people implementing that 18:40:18 MK: Perhaps the not should be deleted 18:40:37 AA: I don't think devs will muck around with the context menu 18:40:48 AA: Plateform/browser specific 18:41:02 MK: So leave the home and end key in then? 18:41:07 JN: We can leave them 18:42:08 JN: I have not heard maximize to be a use case 18:42:22 BG: Max and span appropriately ... 18:42:30 JN: Make those optional 18:42:45 BG: I like it, developers are confused with keyboard support 18:43:12 MK: Left and right, up and down ..., is there a bi-directional splitter? 18:43:18 JN: no such thing 18:43:22 MK: I will design one 18:43:35 JN: I would not advise anyone to do that 18:43:50 JS: How would you tell it is 90 degrees.. 18:44:15 JN: summarizing 18:45:08 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28084 18:45:23 TOPIC: Listbox 18:45:51 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Listbox 18:46:35 LJWatson has joined #aria-apg 18:47:15 Bir: It does not mention check..., there no ... 18:47:36 MK:Does option support check? 18:47:40 Bir: Yes 18:47:46 JN: It does 18:47:53 MK: So that is good 18:48:25 JN: It even says checkbox, ... why until now 18:48:40 MK: From an aria stand point there is no checkbox 18:48:54 Bir: Checkable item 18:49:12 JN: whats the defference between checked and selected? 18:49:46 Bir: Single select you can .... 18:50:05 MK: Checkable options are used with the selection model uses SPACE bar 18:50:19 MK: If you use SHIFT+ARROW then you use select 18:50:43 MK: Some list boxes only work that way 18:50:58 MK: Some list boxes you can just use the space bar 18:51:15 MK: There are some list boxes that support both, never seen one 18:51:51 BG: There are recommended keyboard shortcuts, is it up to the implementer, it is strange no keyboard 18:52:01 AA: Like ALT++DOWN ARROW? 18:52:19 MK: Checkable option thing is not discussed 18:52:34 LW: I am not sure I fully understand the difference 18:53:40 Bir: Selected follows... you can have something checked on single select... a list of 5 options on number 3, option 1 is checked 18:53:53 MK: Selection follows focus model 18:54:26 MK: I didn't think select should be used in combination with checked 18:54:46 Bir: you may not, but they do work together.... 18:54:56 LW: Use case to select things on a list box 18:55:18 MK: It is just another selection model, you don't have to hold down any keys when selecting 18:55:33 LW: Is it a use firendly design pattern? 18:55:52 JN: It really depends on single select or multi-select.. 18:56:08 JN: I have seen both 18:56:43 MK: I have seen it alot, especially like in when your selecting a set of objects in like a file system.... 18:56:50 LW: OK yeah 18:56:59 JN: Columns in a databse 18:57:17 MK: I was thinking of more like a tree, but it can be done in a list box 18:57:48 JN: the thing that is confusing me, is what if theck and select are true 18:58:52 MK: We should do one of two things, say there is two different selection models, and recommend people always use select, unless people feel we should also encourage people use checked for some purpose 18:59:35 Bir: Most people will be using aria-select, but we should have partically selected example 18:59:42 MK: We need to change the wording 19:00:11 MK: I have a basic quesion, if you come to a list box focus should go to the selected item 19:00:16 JN: It should 19:00:19 LW: it should 19:00:46 JN: If there is nothing selected, what should happen, first item? 19:02:07 MK: If it is not selected I am not sure it should be the first item 19:02:33 Bir: it doesn't actually select anything, you have to arrow in 19:02:48 BG: Something I ... 19:03:28 Tab: When recieves focus, move focus to the first item with aria-selected="true". If nothing is selected then move focus to the first item and, optionally, select the item depending on functionality desired. 19:03:35 MK: I would change these when a list is tabbed to..., a list receives focus that .... 19:03:49 JN: Reads an updated working.... 19:04:12 MK: Except for the first time..., you are thinking of the multi-select 19:04:35 Bir: Even if it is multi-select you still have to arrow 19:04:53 MK: If one is alrady selected, the selected item is focused 19:05:16 MK: It one or more items, the first selected option should get focus 19:05:31 AA: That is for multi select 19:06:03 JN: It should be the one the user actually selected, but I am not expecting developers to track that 19:06:20 AA: Unless something ius selected by default, i.e not user action 19:06:35 BG: First one is the safest bet 19:07:36 JG: Carousels are using horizontal list boxes 19:07:43 JN: I hate them 19:08:10 "pain" 19:08:26 MK: It depends on what are in your carousels, if you have mutliple items, pane, then table liet works well, tablist controls rotation 19:08:38 LW: There are some HTML5 widgets 19:08:56 MK: Listbox is not the greatest choice 19:09:10 Bir: Tablist is better 19:09:28 s/There are some HTML5 widgets/There is work being done on an HTML5 extension to create native elements for creating carousels, tabs etc./ 19:09:31 JN: Perhaps LISTBOX needs an orientation 19:09:37 JN: If people are using it for it 19:09:54 BG: Horizontal select 19:10:03 BG: I guess you could 19:10:13 Bir: ... horizontal... 19:10:26 MK: Conceptually maybe we should think about it 19:11:02 MK: The roles and the design patterns is to communicate the interaction pattern, regardless of visual rendering 19:12:06 MK: Bir: it is horizontal, keyboard only users will not expect to use up and down 19:12:26 JN: Just like with slider, we can do up/down and left/right 19:12:48 MK: Tablist we need to support orientation? 19:12:54 AA: they can be 19:13:04 JN: Carousel 19:13:17 LW: Carousel is a different design pattern 19:13:37 MK: It depends on the carousel... 19:13:50 MK: In some cases there are panes 19:14:15 Bir: If you orientation on listbox, it will be on a lot of other things 19:14:39 JN: You may or may not, a multi-selctable carousel hurts my brain 19:15:17 MK: I was thinking of something that works like a listbox....,into a menubar...., maybe make a toolbar of checkboxes 19:15:24 JN: Or toggle button 19:15:42 MK: Toolbar full of checkboxes 19:16:09 AA: Put the work optional... 19:16:31 JN: When something is optional people will not do it 19:17:31 MK: The boundary is 7 or more then use a listbox 19:17:58 Bir: I get confused is partial match, thet could be optional 19:18:30 Bir: Should we make that optional, people to type multiple letters 19:18:46 MK: County/city and they all start with country 19:19:03 MK: Are you going to type Yugo... an then space 19:19:23 JN: Menu will now search text anywhere 19:19:35 MK: Lotus notes does that, one good feature 19:20:41 MK: Break it into two separate bullets? 19:20:44 Bir: yes 19:21:00 BG: Full screen, incredibly hard to do that 19:21:10 JN: Auto complete pattern 19:21:14 Bir: That was my comment 19:21:32 AA: 50+ us states and you have to type T twice 19:21:51 JN: What about states that start with N 19:22:13 JN: Can we finish this one off? 19:22:38 MK: More than seven should support first letter navigation 19:23:04 JN: The second bullet point needs editing 19:23:16 MK: I was going to say the same thing 19:23:25 AA: WHat does up and down need eidting 19:23:31 JN: I meant thrid 19:23:51 MK: I have never used SHIFT+SPACE 19:24:04 JN: it is normal... 19:24:09 BG: It is cool 19:24:16 MK: I have never heard of this 19:24:36 JN: You have to be careful 19:24:47 LW: arrow key gets everything in its path 19:25:02 JN: Drop it? 19:25:29 MK: I have never seen it work, but I have not tried it, how does mouse clicking work 19:25:48 AA: I think we should not remove shift+space 19:25:54 BG: i think it is great 19:26:34 MK: Do we need to put an note in about partial selection, then use checkable options, rather than partial select 19:26:48 JN: How can one be partially selected? 19:26:59 MK: Then it becomes a tree 19:27:40 BG: I have seen this on windows apps, we have checkable options, the checkable options support different states, .... 19:27:57 JN: What does it mean to partially select ... 19:28:06 BG: Use space bar to move between states 19:28:13 JN: I still don't get it 19:28:38 BG: describes an interaction.... 19:30:03 AA: I see this use pattern in installed 19:30:45 MK: it is not a tree, there could be a set of options..., four different categories of things, ..... 19:30:52 -Jemma 19:30:56 rrsagent minutes, drat 19:31:00 rrsagent minutes, draft 19:31:12 rrsagent, minutes draft 19:31:12 I'm logging. I don't understand 'minutes draft', jongund. Try /msg RRSAgent help 19:31:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:31:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html jongund 19:34:30 -Jon_Gunderson 19:34:56 -LJWatson 19:35:00 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28085 19:35:09 -janina 19:35:13 -James_Nurthen 19:35:14 -Birkir 19:35:16 -Matt_King 19:35:18 -Bryan_Garaventa 19:35:48 -annabbott 19:35:49 WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended 19:35:49 Attendees were +1.512.459.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Matt_King, +1.217.244.aabb, LJWatson, annabbott, Jemma, janina, Jon_Gunderson, +1.919.607.aacc, Birkir, Bryan_Garaventa 20:19:03 mattking has joined #aria-apg 23:09:41 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 23:09:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-irc 23:09:45 rrsagent, make log world 23:09:49 rrsagent, make minutes 23:09:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html MichaelC 23:11:45 meeting: ARIA APG 23:11:55 chair: Matt_King 23:11:57 rrsagent, make minutes 23:11:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-aria-apg-minutes.html MichaelC 23:12:00 rrsagent, bye 23:12:00 I see no action items