Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 19 February 2015

<scribe> scribeNick: nigel

This Meeting

nigel: Summarises agenda. AOB?

group: no AOB

nigel: Note that on the agenda the timeline for the next TTML2 WD is marked 'AT RISK'.
... One mitigation to that resource-constrained risk would be for other members to contribute.

glenn: That's certainly possible, either by contributing spec ready text or directly in Mercurial.
... It would need some coordination and post processing by me to ensure editorial consistency.

nigel: If anyone's interested in contributing in this way I suggest you contact me and/or Glenn
... offline.

Action Items

action-361?

<trackbot> action-361 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Update liaisons table to include arib -- due 2015-02-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/361

<Frans> apologies for being late Frans

<Frans> (phone problems)

close action-361

<trackbot> Closed action-361.

action-368?

<trackbot> action-368 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update publication timeline diagram -- due 2015-01-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/368

nigel: Thank you Pierre - that's now uploaded to the Publications page.

https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications

pal: I noticed that we moved the FPWD back but not the CR date - is that intentional and realistic?

glenn: I plan to do a second WD.

pal: We seem to have dropped an intermediate WD before CR.
... It's useful for people who plan to comment to understand when is the best time to do so.
... If the March 24th WD is the equivalent to LC then that's useful - it indicates how much work
... needs to be done.

nigel: I see what you mean - also we have an F2F on 9th and 10th April now which we didn't have
... in the calendar before we put this plan together. It would seem odd to prevent ourselves from
... discussing our largest deliverable because we've already gone to a WD for wide review!
... I think we should move the WD for wide review to after our F2F now. Thoughts anyone?

glenn: +1

jdsmith: +1

tmichel: Under the new process the important date is when we move to CR as WDs are quick to
... publish.

nigel: In our experience though the last WD is important because it's when we explicitly seek
... wide review.

pal: So the Mar 24 would be a WD but without seeking wide review, then another one in late April
... or early May for the equivalent to LC?

nigel: Any other constraints on dates for the final WD?

glenn: When we go to CR we have to make sure that there's some material on every feature that
... we want to include in the spec - we can't add any new features after CR without going back
... for wide review again. We can always mark CR features as 'at risk' though.
... I prefer to have the CR version clear. Right now there are two areas that are underspecified:
... 1) the HTML mapping - I've been creating material for that based on my implementation work.
... 2) validation processing - some of the semantics around the newer profiling system.
... More material is needed on conditional expression features and on the media offset semantics
... issue. Those are the ones that come to mind as needing work.

nigel: I propose May 4th for the WD for wide review, for the diagram, for the time being.

action-368: This needs an update again, to move the WD on TTML2 to May 5th/7th.

<trackbot> Notes added to action-368 Update publication timeline diagram.

reopen action-368

<trackbot> Re-opened action-368.

action-369?

<trackbot> action-369 -- Nigel Megitt to Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison -- due 2015-02-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/369

action-369: nigel to update based on responses from last week

<trackbot> Notes added to action-369 Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison.

reopen action-369

<trackbot> Re-opened action-369.

action-373?

<trackbot> action-373 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Consider how to process and make available the dece test criteria provided -- due 2015-02-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/373

nigel: I think pal has added these to the IMSC 1 test suite.

pal: I've started doing this - I wanted to make sure folk were happy with the approach.

<pal> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Tests

<pal> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/narratives/Solekai022_854_29_640x75_MaxSdSubtitle_v7_subtitles/3.html

pal: If you follow this link it shows the expected output - it's a copy/paste from the DECE
... contribution.
... I plan to do that for every single one.

nigel: LGTM

action-373: [meeting 2015-02-19] Pierre has considered how, and the approach looks good.

<trackbot> Notes added to action-373 Consider how to process and make available the dece test criteria provided.

close action-373

<trackbot> Closed action-373.

<scribe> ACTION: pal Complete processing of DECE test criteria as per action-373 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-375 - Complete processing of dece test criteria as per action-373 [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-02-26].

action-374?

<trackbot> action-374 -- Glenn Adams to Confirm f2f location and update wiki and send details to the reflector. -- due 2015-02-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/374

glenn: I just checked at Harrah's and booked - it was $103 per night on Expedia.

nigel: You can book direct on their website too.

glenn: There's a more up to date hotel next door called Linq and there's also the Venetian.
... There are lots of hotels round there.
... The meeting room is at Harrah's though. It's an older hotel so we'll see how it is.

pal: That hotel has two towers, I recommend getting a room in the renovated one. If you want
... somewhere nice I'd recommend the Paris that's next door.
... It's got a good restaurant too.

glenn: For purposes of landmarks, there's a new 550ft ferris wheel just behind Harrah's, so look
... for that if you're lost.

nigel: Thanks for the great tips - might be good to put them on the wiki page!

<glenn> http://www.caesars.com/linq/high-roller.html

nigel: If you're able to attend please add your name to the wiki page. I can create a WBS survey
... but I think the wiki page is probably enough.

close action-374

<trackbot> Closed action-374.

F2F

[as just discussed!]

nigel: If you want any specific agenda items please let me know. The default at the moment
... is to look at IMSC 1 implementation reports and TTML2 next WD in the absence of any other
... requests.

Action Items (continued)

action-365?

<trackbot> action-365 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/365

pal: There's a bunch of other related ones because for CP21 some of
... the issues are still open. Issue-231 for example.
... This is the one where the current TTML2 draft does something differently to what SMPTE
... had suggested. I'm not sure where we ended up. We wanted to inform SMPTE of our current
... plan.

nigel: That was action-369, which I need to update and resend based on last week's conversation.

<scribe> ACTION: nigel update CP21 to check current status of all issues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-376 - Update cp21 to check current status of all issues [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-02-26].

Action-365: [meeting 2015-02-19] See also action-369 and the SMPTE liaison.

<trackbot> Notes added to Action-365 Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229..

IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report

pal: Two issues have been closed, raised by nigel. In the process of doing that I found a number
... of bugs in the test vectors and have also corrected them.

issue-371?

<trackbot> issue-371 -- linePadding test needs to apply the background color to the line areas only -- pending review

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/371

nigel: In this you addressed the issue.

pal: I literally copied the proposed text.

issue-372?

<trackbot> issue-372 -- multiRowAlign test applies style via region -- pending review

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/372

atai: Just a comment on the issues, multiRowAlign especially. There's a difference in the way
... styles apply in EBU-TT-D and IMSC 1. Nonetheless semantically it's still possible to reference
... a style from a region. There's no problem semantically I think. I'm not sure how to deal with
... that in general for IMSC - if it should be allowed to use the ebuttd attribute on region or inline.

glenn: Just a reminder that if the property is not applicable to region then it can still be
... specified on region and participate in region inheritance. If it's not applicable to region
... directly then content will inherit from it.

atai: For multiRowAlign the applicability is the same as for textAlign, in terms of applicability to
... region.

pal: In EBU Tech3380 it isn't clear exactly what multiRowAlign is applicable to. I'd recommend to
... clarify that.
... With linePadding there's specific language about which elements it is applicable to, in contrast
... to multiRowAlign.
... The way I interpreted it is there are two levels of constraint in EBU-TT-D. First, what elements
... the attributes are applicable to, and secondly, on what elements they may be specified.
... IMSC 1 doesn't constrain inline styles in the way that EBU-TT-D does. As I read it you're
... permitted more latitude in IMSC 1 in where you can specify the attributes than in EBU-TT-D.

atai: I agree with that.

pal: What's missing in EBU-TT-D is what elements multiRowAlign is applicable to.

atai: I have to check that it states that it can apply to the same elements as tts:textAlign.
... Regarding the comments from nigel, to be more consistent with what IMSC is doing it would
... be odd not to allow it to be specified like the other style attributes. Nigel's comments re
... EBU-TT-D about not adding styling inline is correct.

nigel: I think if we want to allow the ebutts style attributes in other locations in IMSC 1 then the
... expansion relative to EBU-TT-D needs to be explicitly stated.

glenn: In TTML2 the style attribute must be specified on the span directly for padding and can
... not be inherited.

pal: Maybe, ideally, IMSC 1 should only reference the annexes in EBU Tech3380. Then if the
... annexes could include the constraints on which elements each of those attributes apply
... then it would work perfectly.

atai: At the moment we don't plan any updates other than for big errors.

pal: okay I'll update only IMSC 1 then.

atai: The applicability of those elements is maybe clear to us, but the other issue of where they
... can be specified on content may be different. If we want to allow specification of the attributes
... inline for example then we need to specify that in IMSC 1.

pal: yes.
... If we agree that this is reasonable then I'm happy to clarify that.

<scribe> ACTION: atai2 Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-377 - Capture the ebu-tt-d style attributes issue on imsc 1 and raise an issue [on Andreas Tai - due 2015-02-26].

nigel: We're out of time! Meet again same time next week. Thanks very much everyone. [adjourns meeting]

close issue-371

<trackbot> Closed issue-371.

close issue-372

<trackbot> Closed issue-372.