IRC log of tt on 2015-02-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:32 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:58:32 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-irc
14:58:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:58:34 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tt
14:58:36 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TTML
14:58:36 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:37 [trackbot]: Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:58:37 [trackbot]: Date: 19 February 2015
14:59:11 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
14:59:18 [Zakim]: + +1.720.897.aaaa
14:59:36 [glenn_]: zakim, aaaa is me
14:59:36 [Zakim]: +glenn_; got it
14:59:44 [Zakim]: +nigel
15:01:48 [atai]: atai has joined #tt
15:02:02 [tmichel]: tmichel has joined #tt
15:02:30 [nigel]: Present: glenn, nigel
15:02:32 [pal]: pal has joined #tt
15:02:38 [Zakim]: +??P19
15:02:46 [tmichel]: zakim, ??P19 is me
15:02:46 [Zakim]: +tmichel; got it
15:02:54 [nigel]: Present+ tmichel
15:03:21 [Zakim]: +Andreas
15:03:43 [nigel]: Present+ Andreas
15:03:59 [nigel]: Chair: nigel
15:04:01 [nigel]: scribeNick: nigel
15:04:01 [Zakim]: +jdsmith
15:04:03 [jdsmith]: jdsmith has joined #tt
15:04:09 [nigel]: Present+ jdsmith
15:04:22 [nigel]: Topic: This Meeting
15:04:49 [Zakim]: + +1.650.458.aabb
15:05:06 [pal]: zakim, i am aabb
15:05:06 [Zakim]: +pal; got it
15:05:16 [nigel]: Present+ pal
15:05:45 [nigel]: nigel: Summarises agenda. AOB?
15:06:08 [nigel]: group: no AOB
15:09:25 [glenn]: i'm still connected to zakim, but not hearing anyone
15:09:47 [glenn]: going to hang up and redial
15:09:53 [Zakim]: -glenn_
15:10:08 [nigel]: s/i'm still connected to zakim, but not hearing anyone/
15:10:14 [nigel]: s/going to hang up and redial/
15:11:11 [Zakim]: +glenn_
15:12:15 [glenn]: zakim, glenn_ is glenn
15:12:15 [Zakim]: +glenn; got it
15:12:46 [nigel]: nigel: Note that on the agenda the timeline for the next TTML2 WD is marked 'AT RISK'.
15:13:01 [nigel]: ... One mitigation to that resource-constrained risk would be for other members to contribute.
15:13:17 [nigel]: glenn: That's certainly possible, either by contributing spec ready text or directly in Mercurial.
15:13:32 [nigel]: ... It would need some coordination and post processing by me to ensure editorial consistency.
15:13:48 [nigel]: nigel: If anyone's interested in contributing in this way I suggest you contact me and/or Glenn
15:13:52 [nigel]: ... offline.
15:14:19 [nigel]: Topic: Action Items
15:14:32 [Frans]: Frans has joined #tt
15:14:45 [nigel]: action-361?
15:14:46 [trackbot]: action-361 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Update liaisons table to include arib -- due 2015-02-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:14:46 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/361
15:15:10 [Zakim]: + +41.22.717.aacc
15:15:17 [nigel]: zakim, aacc is Frans
15:15:17 [Zakim]: +Frans; got it
15:15:18 [Frans]: apologies for being late Frans
15:15:23 [Zakim]: -Frans
15:15:26 [nigel]: Present+ Frans
15:15:40 [Zakim]: + +41.22.717.aadd
15:15:43 [Frans]: (phone problems)
15:15:48 [nigel]: zakim, aadd is Frans
15:15:48 [Zakim]: +Frans; got it
15:16:09 [nigel]: close action-361
15:16:09 [trackbot]: Closed action-361.
15:16:14 [nigel]: action-368?
15:16:14 [trackbot]: action-368 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update publication timeline diagram -- due 2015-01-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:16:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/368
15:16:36 [nigel]: nigel: Thank you Pierre - that's now uploaded to the Publications page.
15:16:54 [nigel]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications
15:17:17 [nigel]: pal: I noticed that we moved the FPWD back but not the CR date - is that intentional and realistic?
15:17:24 [nigel]: glenn: I plan to do a second WD.
15:21:35 [nigel]: pal: We seem to have dropped an intermediate WD before CR.
15:22:13 [nigel]: ... It's useful for people who plan to comment to understand when is the best time to do so.
15:23:53 [nigel]: ... If the March 24th WD is the equivalent to LC then that's useful - it indicates how much work
15:23:55 [nigel]: ... needs to be done.
15:25:59 [nigel]: nigel: I see what you mean - also we have an F2F on 9th and 10th April now which we didn't have
15:26:14 [nigel]: ... in the calendar before we put this plan together. It would seem odd to prevent ourselves from
15:26:27 [nigel]: ... discussing our largest deliverable because we've already gone to a WD for wide review!
15:27:21 [nigel]: ... I think we should move the WD for wide review to after our F2F now. Thoughts anyone?
15:27:29 [nigel]: glenn: +!
15:27:32 [nigel]: s/!/1
15:27:40 [nigel]: jdsmith: +1
15:28:01 [nigel]: tmichel: Under the new process the important date is when we move to CR as WDs are quick to
15:28:18 [nigel]: ... publish.
15:28:30 [nigel]: nigel: In our experience though the last WD is important because it's when we explicitly go for
15:28:33 [nigel]: ... wide review.
15:28:52 [nigel]: pal: So the Mar 24 would be a WD but without seeking wide review, then another one in late April
15:29:02 [nigel]: ... or early May for the equivalent to LC?
15:29:43 [nigel]: nigel: Any other constraints on dates for the final WD?
15:30:24 [nigel]: glenn: When we go to CR we have to make sure that there's some material on every feature that
15:30:50 [nigel]: ... we want to include in the spec - we can't add any new features after CR without going back
15:31:03 [nigel]: ... for wide review again. We can always mark CR features as 'at risk' though.
15:31:24 [nigel]: ... I prefer to have the CR version clear. Right now there are two areas that are underspecified:
15:31:40 [nigel]: ... 1) the HTML mapping - I've been creating material for that based on my implementation work.
15:32:02 [nigel]: ... 2) validation processing - some of the semantics around the newer profiling system.
15:32:16 [nigel]: ... More material is needed on conditional expression features and on the media offset semantics
15:32:43 [nigel]: ... issue. Those are the ones that come to mind as needing work.
15:35:17 [nigel]: nigel: I propose May 4th for the WD for wide review, for the diagram, for the time being.
15:36:44 [nigel]: action-368: This needs an update again, to move the WD on TTML2 to May 5th/7th.
15:36:44 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-368 Update publication timeline diagram.
15:36:48 [nigel]: reopen action-368
15:36:48 [trackbot]: Re-opened action-368.
15:36:57 [nigel]: action-369?
15:36:57 [trackbot]: action-369 -- Nigel Megitt to Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison -- due 2015-02-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:36:57 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/369
15:37:39 [nigel]: action-369: nigel to update based on responses from last week
15:37:39 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-369 Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison.
15:37:44 [nigel]: reopen action-369
15:37:44 [trackbot]: Re-opened action-369.
15:37:54 [nigel]: action-373?
15:37:54 [trackbot]: action-373 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Consider how to process and make available the dece test criteria provided -- due 2015-02-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:37:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/373
15:38:16 [nigel]: nigel: I think pal has added these to the IMSC 1 test suite.
15:38:27 [nigel]: pal: I've started doing this - I wanted to make sure folk were happy with the approach.
15:38:36 [pal]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Tests
15:38:57 [pal]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/narratives/Solekai022_854_29_640x75_MaxSdSubtitle_v7_subtitles/3.html
15:39:28 [nigel]: pal: If you follow this link it shows the expected output - it's a copy/paste from the DECE
15:39:33 [nigel]: ... contribution.
15:39:46 [nigel]: pal: I plan to do that for every single one.
15:39:50 [nigel]: nigel: LGTM
15:40:55 [nigel]: action-373: [meeting 2015-02-19] Pierre has considered how, and the approach looks good.
15:40:55 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-373 Consider how to process and make available the dece test criteria provided.
15:40:58 [nigel]: close action-373
15:40:58 [trackbot]: Closed action-373.
15:41:16 [nigel]: Action: pal Complete processing of DECE test criteria as per action-373
15:41:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-375 - Complete processing of dece test criteria as per action-373 [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-02-26].
15:41:25 [nigel]: action-374?
15:41:25 [trackbot]: action-374 -- Glenn Adams to Confirm f2f location and update wiki and send details to the reflector. -- due 2015-02-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:41:25 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/374
15:42:09 [nigel]: glenn: I just checked at Harrah's and booked - it was $103 per night on Expedia.
15:42:15 [nigel]: nigel: You can book direct on their website too.
15:42:34 [nigel]: glenn: There's a more up to date hotel next door called Linq and there's also the Venetian.
15:42:40 [nigel]: ... There are lots of hotels round there.
15:43:01 [nigel]: ... The meeting room is at Harrah's though. It's an older hotel so we'll see how it is.
15:43:27 [nigel]: pal: That hotel has two towers, I recommend getting a room in the renovated one. If you want
15:43:35 [nigel]: ... somewhere nice I'd recommend the Paris that's next door.
15:43:43 [nigel]: ... It's got a good restaurant too.
15:44:06 [nigel]: glenn: For purposes of landmarks, there's a new 500ft ferris wheel just behind Harrah's, so look
15:44:09 [nigel]: ... for that if you're lost.
15:44:26 [nigel]: nigel: Thanks for the great tips - might be good to put them on the wiki page!
15:44:36 [nigel]: s/500/550
15:45:24 [glenn]: http://www.caesars.com/linq/high-roller.html
15:45:27 [nigel]: nigel: If you're able to attend please add your name to the wiki page. I can create a WBS survey
15:45:32 [nigel]: ... but I think the wiki page is probably enough.
15:45:37 [nigel]: close action-374
15:45:37 [trackbot]: Closed action-374.
15:45:41 [nigel]: Topic: F2F
15:45:47 [nigel]: [as just discussed!]
15:46:16 [nigel]: nigel: If you want any specific agenda items please let me know. The default at the moment
15:46:32 [nigel]: ... is to look at IMSC 1 implementation reports and TTML2 next WD in the absence of any other
15:46:34 [nigel]: ... requests.
15:47:41 [nigel]: Topic: Action Items (continued)
15:47:52 [nigel]: action-365?
15:47:52 [trackbot]: action-365 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
15:47:52 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/365
15:48:48 [nigel]: pal: There's a bunch of other related ones that are related to that because for CP21 some of
15:49:06 [nigel]: ... the issues are still open. Issue-231 for example.
15:49:17 [nigel]: ... This is the one where the current TTML2 draft does something differently to what SMPTE
15:49:35 [nigel]: ... had suggested. I'm not sure where we ended up. We wanted to inform SMPTE of our current
15:49:44 [nigel]: ... plan.
15:50:02 [nigel]: nigel: That was action-369, which I need to update and resend based on last week's conversation.
15:50:28 [nigel]: Action: nigel update CP21 to check current status of all issues
15:50:29 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-376 - Update cp21 to check current status of all issues [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-02-26].
15:52:13 [nigel]: Action-365: [meeting 2015-02-19] See also action-369 and the SMPTE liaison.
15:52:14 [trackbot]: Notes added to Action-365 Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229..
15:52:49 [nigel]: Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
15:53:02 [nigel]: pal: Two issues have been closed, raised by nigel. In the process of doing that I found a number
15:53:09 [nigel]: ... of bugs in the test vectors and have also corrected them.
15:53:15 [nigel]: issue-371?
15:53:15 [trackbot]: issue-371 -- linePadding test needs to apply the background color to the line areas only -- pending review
15:53:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/371
15:53:37 [nigel]: nigel: In this you addressed the issue.
15:53:42 [nigel]: pal: I literally copied the proposed text.
15:55:02 [nigel]: issue-372?
15:55:02 [trackbot]: issue-372 -- multiRowAlign test applies style via region -- pending review
15:55:02 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/372
15:55:11 [nigel]: atai: Just a comment on the issues, multiRowAlign especially. There's a difference in the way
15:55:39 [nigel]: ... styles apply in EBU-TT-D and IMSC 1. Nonetheless semantically it's still possible to reference
15:55:52 [nigel]: ... a style from a region. There's no problem semantically I think. I'm not sure how to deal with
15:56:09 [nigel]: ... that in general for IMSC - if it should be allowed to use the ebuttd attribute on region or inline.
15:56:28 [nigel]: glenn: Just a reminder that if the property is not applicable to region then it can still be
15:56:41 [nigel]: ... specified on region and participate in region inheritance. If it's not applicable to region
15:56:55 [nigel]: ... directly then content will inherit from it.
15:57:21 [nigel]: atai: For multiRowAlign the applicability is the same as for textAlign, in terms of applicability to
15:57:23 [nigel]: ... region.
15:57:43 [nigel]: pal: In EBU Tech3380 it isn't clear exactly what multiRowAlign is applicable to. I'd recommend to
15:57:45 [nigel]: ... clarify that.
15:58:12 [nigel]: pal: With linePadding there's specific language about which elements it is applicable to, in contrast
15:58:15 [nigel]: ... to multiRowAlign.
15:58:37 [nigel]: ... The way I interpreted it is there are two levels of constraint in EBU-TT-D. First, what elements
15:58:55 [nigel]: ... the attributes are applicable to, and secondly, on what elements they may be specified.
15:59:08 [nigel]: ... IMSC 1 doesn't constrain inline styles in the way that EBU-TT-D does. As I read it you're
15:59:24 [nigel]: ... permitted more latitude in IMSC 1 in where you can specify the attributes than in EBU-TT-D.
15:59:28 [nigel]: atai: I agree with that.
15:59:42 [nigel]: pal: What's missing in EBU-TT-D is what elements multiRowAlign is applicable to.
16:00:02 [nigel]: atai: I have to check that it states that it can apply to the same elements as tts:textAlign.
16:00:17 [nigel]: ... Regarding the comments from nigel, to be more consistent with what IMSC is doing it would
16:00:40 [nigel]: ... be odd not to allow it to be specified like the other style attributes. Nigel's comments re
16:01:45 [nigel]: ... EBU-TT-D about not adding styling inline is correct.
16:02:09 [nigel]: nigel: I think if we want to allow the ebutts style attributes in other locations in IMSC 1 then the
16:02:15 [Zakim]: -jdsmith
16:02:19 [nigel]: ... expansion relative to EBU-TT-D needs to be explicitly stated.
16:02:42 [nigel]: glenn: In TTML2 the style attribute must be specified on the span directly for padding and can
16:02:44 [nigel]: ... not be inherited.
16:03:17 [nigel]: pal: Maybe, ideally, IMSC 1 should only reference the annexes in EBU Tech3380. Then if the
16:03:32 [nigel]: ... annexes could include the constraints on which elements each of those attributes apply
16:03:39 [nigel]: ... then it would work perfectly.
16:03:52 [nigel]: atai: At the moment we don't plan any updates other than for big errors.
16:03:58 [nigel]: pal: okay I'll update only IMSC 1 then.
16:04:19 [nigel]: atai: The applicability of those elements is maybe clear to us, but the other issue of where they
16:04:43 [nigel]: ... can be specified on content may be different. If we want to allow specification of the attributes
16:04:56 [nigel]: ... inline for example then we need to specify that in IMSC 1.
16:04:58 [nigel]: pal: yes.
16:05:16 [nigel]: ... If we agree that this is reasonable then I'm happy to clarify that.
16:05:57 [nigel]: Action: atai Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue
16:05:57 [trackbot]: Error finding 'atai'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users>.
16:06:13 [nigel]: Action: atai2 Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue
16:06:13 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-377 - Capture the ebu-tt-d style attributes issue on imsc 1 and raise an issue [on Andreas Tai - due 2015-02-26].
16:06:41 [Zakim]: -Frans
16:06:42 [Zakim]: -Andreas
16:06:42 [Zakim]: -pal
16:06:48 [Zakim]: -glenn
16:06:55 [nigel]: nigel: We're out of time! Meet again same time next week. Thanks very much everyone. [adjourns meeting]
16:07:03 [Zakim]: -nigel
16:07:34 [nigel]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:07:37 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:07:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:10:44 [nigel]: s/explicitly go for/explicitly seek
16:13:18 [nigel]: s/other related ones that are related to that because/other related ones because
16:14:25 [nigel]: close issue-371
16:14:25 [trackbot]: Closed issue-371.
16:14:28 [nigel]: close issue-372
16:14:28 [trackbot]: Closed issue-372.
16:16:46 [nigel]: s|ACTION: atai Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html#action03]|
16:16:57 [nigel]: s|Error finding 'atai'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/users>.|
16:17:06 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:17:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:18:13 [nigel]: s|Action: atai Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue|
16:18:14 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:18:14 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:19:38 [nigel]: ScribeOptions -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:19:39 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:19:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:20:34 [nigel]: s|ScribeOptions -final -noEmbedDiagnostics|
16:20:40 [nigel]: ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:20:42 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:20:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:21:57 [nigel]: s/s|ACTION: atai Capture the EBU-TT-D style attributes issue on IMSC 1 and raise an issue [recorded in /
16:22:23 [nigel]: s|http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html#action03]|
16:22:28 [nigel]: s/|/
16:22:31 [nigel]: rrsagent, generate minutes
16:22:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:05:01 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, tmichel, in SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM
17:05:02 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
17:05:02 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.720.897.aaaa, nigel, tmichel, Andreas, jdsmith, +1.650.458.aabb, pal, glenn, +41.22.717.aacc, Frans, +41.22.717.aadd
17:16:25 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #tt