<Birkir> so me, Birkir, 919 607 27 53

<Birkir> http://irc.w3c.org works .. but if you are on irc already and see this message, you don't need it .. if you are not, you will not see this message .. ;)

<Birkir> Trackbot is a very enthusiastic user .. always on all channels ;)

<trackbot> Sorry, Birkir, I don't understand 'Trackbot is a very enthusiastic user .. always on all channels ;)'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<scribe> scribeNick:jamesn

Discuss meeting time: since ARIA TF meeting is moving to Thursday, the Monday time slot is open. Will it work better than Friday for APG TF?

discussing possible 12.30-2 Eastern on Monday or 1-2.30 Eastern on Monday

<jongund> +1 on monday

<Birkir> I have no preference between Mon or Fri or between 9:30 or 10 pacific, whatever works.

<jongund> I think Jemma is OK with monday too

RESOLUTION: Matt to send email to group to propose new call on Mondays at 1pm Boston Time for 90 minutes starting Dec 15

Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the following if you have the opportunity to do so.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu

JG: would it be possible to create an extra list just for Authoring practices'

MK: I don't have a problem with it being a seperate list
... I like the idea of wider feedback

+1 to that

MK: are not going to make changes until PF changed to APA

<jongund> Ok

MK: want to point out on menus that the title needs to match

<mattking> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26377

JN: lets park that until menubutton

BG: when focus is put into a div with role=menu then down arrow doesn't work
... unless role=application gets put around it
... if you set focus onto something with role=menubar or role=menu when focus is on the role=menubar or role=menu but not when focus to a child menuitem

JN: where do you think the problem lies

<jongund> is it a problem in all browsers?

Bryan: probably an AT problem. Should be checking the container
... particularly for menubars

<Birkir> When focus is shifted to an element with role="menuitem" which is child of menu, application, forms mode is not activated automatically in Jaws. Users has to activate it manually.

Bryan: none of it is conveyed when set focus to menu itemws

MK: It should be clear in the mappings to the accessibility api that these need toi be associated with one another

Bryan: I don't think it is necessary for the APG
... it is correct in the accessibility API

JN: what do we do about these issues?

MK: if we know about issues first priority should be to raise issues with AT vendors
... if we know there is a workaround which causes no harm - but is strictly a workaround. i wonder if we should have a section of notes

Bryan: going to get weird issues and will change all the time

Birkir: working examples - should document on the example

MK: all the examples will be code we devlop and in the APG
... do we want to raise a bug related to this

Bryan: the API maps correctly
... there is a specific difference between items in the menubar and those in role=menu
... AT should actually recognise it. The problem I have is that the menubar role only has 1 specific use in the spec - but if you are only trying to get an AT to say what keys are being used it can apply to any horizontally represented menu
... there is no way to express the orientation like there is for slider

MK: I'm not sure the spec should do this but the APG should
... should not use the word links

the spec says "A type of widget that offers a list of choices to the user.

A menu is often a list of common actions or functions that the user can invoke. The menu role is appropriate when a list of menu items is presented in a manner similar to a menu on a desktop application."

<jongund> I agree we should not use the word "link"

logged https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27526

MK: if you are not aware of the orientation then depending on keystrokes you may know the orientation

Bryan: but it doesn't tell you if you are in the same menu

MK: an AT problem I have noticed is that at least JAWS and NVDA don't announce the name of a menu when you open it.
... when you label a menu - if it gets focussed then the name of the menu doesn't get read
... if you get there from someplace opther than file you wouldn't know if it was the file menu

<Birkir> Sorry guys, have to drop off for another meeting .. will send a few comments on our topics via email .. will see you round next time!

JG: if a menu of links rather than a menu of buttons... is it important to say that these are for navigation vs some sort of functionality on the page

MK: if your links are links you shouldn't really put them in a menu
... the difference between a listbox and menu is that in a listbox all children are options - in a menu they are all menuitems
... would like listview and treeview where whatever is inside a gridcell is still what it is.
... the only container that allows a link to be a link is a list and if you allow keyboard navigation in that then you are going outside the APG

JG: 1 issue i think is that people want to put keyboard support on those pulldown menus

MK: how does the screen reader user know what the interaction model is

JG: what if they support tab and arrow key interaction

Bryan: please don't do that

+1

Bryan: if we just have a list of links can we add arrow keys to move between them'
... this is fine to me
... can have aria-haspopup on the links
... if it is inline it opens up a sub-list

<jongund> can we mute the typing

MK: don't agree that it is fine to have an LI with links which use the arrow keys
... you do have to use the virtual cursor or discover by accident that the arrow keys work in the list
... like a menubar with no children.

Bryan: there is an AT expectation with menus that uit really opens and closes

describing a menu on the page ul w/ role=menu and li w/ role=presentaiton and a with role=menuitem

Bryan: i think it cvhanges the mode of presentation and it doesn't have to
... there were 200 links on the page
... none appeared in the list of links
... couldn't tell any of the lists or sub-lists

JN: sounds like an over the top implemenation

Bryan: see nested lists of links all the time
... as soon as add role=menu on a bunch of stuff it erases the hierarchy
... ask how does doing something make things more accessible

<annabbott> I have to move on to my next call.

MK: must a menu be closeable

JN: yes

MK: I hear from Bryan that he thinks it might need to be

Bryan: if the menu doesn't open it doesn't fire those events
... need role=application on it to switch mode

MK: shouldn't have to as irt is a widget

Bryan: in the wild menubars are static

JN: i don't think it is disallowed though

MK: i've seen it in dialogs
... and didn't see a problem
... were always visible

<we are at the hour>

or past

<jongund> I have to go

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found ScribeNick: jamesn
Inferring Scribes: jamesn
Default Present: +1.512.459.aaaa, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, +1.919.607.aabb, Bryan_Garaventa, Birkir, Ann_Abbott, Jon_Gunderson
Present: +1.512.459.aaaa Matt_King James_Nurthen +1.919.607.aabb Bryan_Garaventa Birkir Ann_Abbott Jon_Gunderson

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 05 Dec 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.