17:34:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:34:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-irc
17:34:14 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:34:36 <jamesn> zakim, this is is WAI_PF
17:34:36 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not see a conference named 'is WAI_PF' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:34:45 <Birkir> so me, Birkir, 919 607 27 53
17:35:05 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:35:05 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I don't know what conference this is
17:35:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, jamesn, mattking, Birkir, MichaelC, trackbot
17:35:31 <jamesn> zakim, list conferences
17:35:31 <Zakim> I see WAI_PF()12:30PM, Team_(html-a11y-media)21:10Z active
17:35:32 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are T&S_Track(editors)12:00PM, W3C_DOCS()12:00PM
17:35:34 <Birkir> http://irc.w3c.org works .. but if you are on irc already and see this message, you don't need it .. if you are not, you will not see this message .. ;)
17:35:55 <jamesn> zakim, this is WAI_PF
17:35:55 <Zakim> ok, jamesn; that matches WAI_PF()12:30PM
17:36:06 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:36:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.512.459.aaaa, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, +1.919.607.aabb, Bryan_Garaventa
17:36:20 <jamesn> zakim, aabb is Birkir
17:36:20 <Zakim> +Birkir; got it
17:37:06 <Birkir> Trackbot is a very enthusiastic user .. always on all channels ;)
17:37:06 <trackbot> Sorry, Birkir, I don't understand 'Trackbot is a very enthusiastic user .. always on all channels ;)'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
17:37:57 <jamesn> zakim, aaaa is Ann_Abbott
17:37:57 <Zakim> +Ann_Abbott; got it
17:38:19 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
17:38:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ann_Abbott, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, Birkir, Bryan_Garaventa
17:38:20 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
17:39:18 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:41:33 <jamesn> agenda+ Discuss meeting time: since ARIA TF meeting is moving to Thursday, the Monday time slot is open. Will it work better than Friday for APG TF?
17:41:43 <jamesn> agenda+ Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the following if you have the opportunity to do so.
17:42:06 <jamesn> agenda+ A. Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu
17:42:16 <jamesn> agenda+ B. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton
17:42:20 <jamesn> agenda+ C. Popup Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#popupmenu
17:45:15 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
17:50:25 <jamesn> scribeNick:jamesn
17:50:36 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
17:50:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Discuss meeting time: since ARIA TF meeting is moving to Thursday, the Monday time slot is open. Will it work better than Friday for APG TF?" taken up [from jamesn]
17:54:06 <jamesn> discussing possible 12.30-2 Eastern on Monday or 1-2.30 Eastern on Monday
17:54:16 <jongund> +1 on monday
17:54:27 <Birkir> I have no preference between Mon or Fri or between 9:30 or 10 pacific, whatever works.
17:54:52 <jamesn> zakim, who is making noise?
17:55:05 <Zakim> jamesn, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: James_Nurthen (7%), Jon_Gunderson (57%)
17:58:25 <jongund> I think Jemma is OK with monday too
17:59:18 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: Matt to send email to group to propose new call on Mondays at 1pm Boston Time for 90 minutes starting Dec 15
17:59:23 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:59:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Continue walk-through of existing design patterns in current editor's draft. Please pre-read the following if you have the opportunity to do so." taken up [from jamesn]
17:59:57 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu
18:00:24 <jamesn> JG: would it be possible to create an extra list just for Authoring practices'
18:00:49 <jamesn> MK: I don't have a problem with it being a seperate list
18:01:00 <jamesn> MK: I like the idea of wider feedback
18:01:05 <jamesn> +1 to that
18:02:22 <jamesn> MK: are not going to make changes until PF changed to APA
18:03:13 <jongund> Ok
18:04:13 <jamesn> MK: want to point out on menus that the title needs to match
18:04:30 <mattking> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26377
18:06:36 <jamesn> JN: lets park that until menubutton
18:07:58 <jamesn> BG: when focus is put into a div with role=menu then down arrow doesn't work
18:08:17 <jamesn> BG: unless role=application gets put around it
18:09:52 <jamesn> BG: if you set focus onto something with role=menubar or role=menu when focus is on the role=menubar or role=menu but not when focus to a child menuitem
18:12:12 <jamesn> JN: where do you think the problem lies
18:12:19 <jongund> is it a problem in all browsers?
18:12:23 <jamesn> Bryan: probably an AT problem. Should be checking the container
18:12:40 <jamesn> Bryan: particularly for menubars
18:12:47 <Birkir> When focus is shifted to an element with role="menuitem" which is child of menu, application, forms mode is not activated automatically in Jaws. Users has to activate it manually.
18:13:05 <jamesn> Bryan: none of it is conveyed when set focus to menu itemws
18:16:58 <jamesn> MK: It should be clear in the mappings to the accessibility api that these need toi be associated with one another
18:17:10 <jamesn> Bryan: I don't think it is necessary for the APG
18:17:33 <jamesn> Bryan: it is correct in the accessibility API
18:19:31 <jamesn> JN: what do we do about these issues?
18:19:50 <jamesn> MK: if we know about issues first priority should be to raise issues with AT vendors
18:20:30 <jamesn> MK: if we know there is a workaround which causes no harm - but is strictly a workaround. i wonder if we should have a section of notes
18:20:46 <jamesn> Bryan: going to get weird issues and will change all the time
18:22:23 <jamesn> Birkir: working examples - should document on the example
18:22:50 <jamesn> MK: all the examples will be code we devlop and in the APG
18:25:03 <jamesn> MK: do we want to raise a bug related to this
18:25:32 <jamesn> Bryan: the API maps correctly
18:25:56 <jamesn> Bryan: there is a specific difference between items in the menubar and those in role=menu
18:27:19 <jamesn> Bryan: AT should actually recognise it. The problem I have is that the menubar role only has 1 specific use in the spec - but if you are only trying to get an AT to say what keys are being used it can apply to any horizontally represented menu
18:27:37 <jamesn> Bryan: there is no way to express the orientation like there is for slider
18:29:06 <jamesn> MK: I'm not sure the spec should do this but the APG should
18:29:46 <jamesn> MK: should not use the word links
18:30:53 <jamesn> the spec says "A type of widget that offers a list of choices to the user.
18:30:53 <jamesn> A menu is often a list of common actions or functions that the user can invoke. The menu role is appropriate when a list of menu items is presented in a manner similar to a menu on a desktop application."
18:31:08 <jongund> I agree we should not use the word "link"
18:32:32 <jamesn> logged https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27526
18:36:36 <jongund> q+
18:38:00 <jamesn> MK: if you are not aware of the orientation then depending on keystrokes you may know the orientation
18:38:13 <jamesn> Bryan: but it doesn't tell you if you are in the same menu
18:38:43 <jamesn> MK: an AT problem I have noticed is that at least JAWS and NVDA don't announce the name of a menu when you open it.
18:39:01 <jamesn> MK: when you label a menu - if it gets focussed then the name of the menu doesn't get read
18:39:24 <jamesn> MK: if you get there from someplace opther than file you wouldn't know if it was the file menu
18:40:13 <Birkir> Sorry guys, have to drop off for another meeting .. will send a few comments on our topics via email .. will see you round next time!
18:40:13 <jamesn> ack Jon
18:40:23 <Zakim> -Birkir
18:40:57 <jamesn> JG: if a menu of links rather than a menu of buttons... is it important to say that these are for navigation vs some sort of functionality on the page
18:41:12 <jamesn> MK: if your links are links you shouldn't really put them in a menu
18:41:47 <jamesn> MK: the difference between a listbox and menu is that in a listbox all children are options - in a menu they are all menuitems
18:42:10 <jamesn> MK: would like listview and treeview where whatever is inside a gridcell is still what it is.
18:44:43 <jamesn> MK: the only container that allows a link to be a link is a list and if you allow keyboard navigation in that then you are going outside the APG
18:45:33 <jamesn> JG: 1 issue i think is that people want to put keyboard support on those pulldown menus
18:45:47 <jamesn> MK: how does the screen reader user know what the interaction model is
18:46:02 <jamesn> JG: what if they support tab and arrow key interaction
18:46:11 <jamesn> Bryan: please don't do that
18:46:17 <jamesn> +1
18:46:58 <jamesn> Bryan: if we just have a list of links can we add arrow keys to move between them'
18:47:07 <jamesn> Bryan: this is fine to me
18:47:18 <jamesn> Bryan: can have aria-haspopup on the links
18:47:45 <jamesn> Bryan: if it is inline it opens up a sub-list
18:48:26 <jongund> can we mute the typing
18:48:44 <jamesn> MK: don't agree that it is fine to have an LI with links which use the arrow keys
18:49:19 <jamesn> MK: you do have to use the virtual cursor or discover by accident that the arrow keys work in the list
18:50:43 <jamesn> MK: like a menubar with no children.
18:53:01 <jamesn> Bryan: there is an AT expectation with menus that uit really opens and closes
18:55:40 <jamesn> describing a menu on the page ul w/ role=menu and li w/ role=presentaiton and a with role=menuitem
18:56:23 <jamesn> Bryan: i think it cvhanges the mode of presentation and it doesn't have to
18:56:43 <jamesn> Bryan: there were 200 links on the page
18:56:45 <jamesn> Bryan: none appeared in the list of links
18:56:59 <jamesn> Bryan: couldn't tell any of the lists or sub-lists
18:57:37 <jamesn> JN: sounds like an over the top implemenation
18:57:48 <jamesn> Bryan: see nested lists of links all the time
18:58:32 <jamesn> Bryan: as soon as add role=menu on a bunch of stuff it erases the hierarchy
18:59:31 <jamesn> Bryan: ask how does doing something make things more accessible
19:01:27 <annabbott> I have to move on to my next call.
19:01:36 <jamesn> MK: must a menu be closeable
19:01:42 <jamesn> JN: yes
19:01:47 <Zakim> -Ann_Abbott
19:01:59 <jamesn> MK: I hear from Bryan that he thinks it might need to be
19:02:13 <jamesn> Bryan: if the menu doesn't open it doesn't fire those events
19:02:43 <jamesn> Bryan: need role=application on it to switch mode
19:02:47 <jamesn> MK: shouldn't have to as irt is a widget
19:02:59 <jamesn> Bryan: in the wild menubars are static
19:03:22 <jamesn> JN: i don't think it is disallowed though
19:03:33 <jamesn> MK: i've seen it in dialogs
19:03:43 <jamesn> MK: and didn't see a problem
19:03:54 <jamesn> MK: were always visible
19:04:04 <jamesn> <we are at the hour>
19:04:12 <jamesn> or past
19:06:43 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:06:47 <jongund> I have to go
19:06:48 <jamesn> zakim, please part
19:06:48 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.512.459.aaaa, Matt_King, James_Nurthen, +1.919.607.aabb, Bryan_Garaventa, Birkir, Ann_Abbott, Jon_Gunderson
19:06:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:06:53 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:08:10 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
19:08:12 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:08:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:08:26 <jamesn> Meeting: APG Taskforce
19:08:28 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:19:45 <jongund> jongund has left #aria-apg
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