See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 12 September 2014
<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
<AnnaBelle> \me Yeah. Will miss you guys!
Shawn: This is ready for complete
and thorough review. Use GitHub if you re comformatble with
that. or email or wiki.
... anyone have discussion of that?
Kevin: Very open for any comments, suggestions, etc
Shawn: So everyone add to to-do
Shadi: We got just a couple of
comments, thanks to those of you who got people to use it, we
got quite a few comments. Most are not yet implemented
... I have tried to make clear those items that have been
discussed and that are scheduled for implementation. We need to
discuss three comments. Link from agenda to the wiki to find
those comments
... let's look at second comment,
<shawn> borders & shading https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments#borders
<shadi> http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/audit/scope
Shadi: OK Let's look at first comment, "borders and shading." If you look at the input area, Wilco has done one round of emphasis so now we should consider if this is good.
Shawn: The areas look kind of
3-D. I am used to the background with shading but the field
itself being entirely white.
... the gradient gives it a look of a button.
Paul: None of the visual aspects of this has come up in my testing with others. In fact I got very good feedback on the overall look.
Shadi: Typically the editable aspect would be white to indicate that it can be filled
Wayne: I don't think it is the color, but the gradient
Shawn: You could have a darker border with the text box area being white
Shadi: The text area is so large
that we wanted to indicate that focus is within the text box
regardless of zoom
... are you then suggesting making borders larger and darker.
Wilco?
Wilco: I don't see any problem.
Paul: I have a question about when focus comes into the filed, could the border not change color
Shadi: It is the way it works now with this one.
Wayne: I like how it is now
Paul: I do too, but the color change in the border can be more obvious
Wilco: Changing the background color will have an impact on more than this aspect.
Paul: The light background color
was requested for an app we built at CSUN as an alternative to
plain white which is too bright for some visual
disabilites
... it is a subtle change but makes a great deal of
difference
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/
<metzessive> Sorry Sharron. I just saw this. It was me.
Shadi: The very faint horizontal
border will suffer the most. If we can change that would it wok
to make the background darker?
... one thing I notice on the tutorials is this very thin and
unobtrusive red line at the top. Might that be useful?
Shawn: The report tool has no W3C logo so branding?
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say browser color setting
Shadi: It has W3C colors
Shawn: I was checking to see if this would accept my own application of color, not found it yet, but wanted to agree with Paul's comment about bright white
<shawn> Paul's example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014JulSep/0067.html
AnnaBelle: We need to make note of the fact that we don't have clear connection to W3C. I had mentioned it before but wanted to reintroduce the fact.
<metzessive> metzessive is Jon
Shadi: I am hearing that there is a preference for a slightly shaded page background. That will allow us to have the input field become white and could darken and strengthen the borders. Will come back to the gradient question.
<paulschantz> It's a subtle change, but it really makes a big difference (our app had a white background at first).
<shawn> +1
Shadi: will add slightly darker
background, field inputs white, stronger borders if
needed.
... and about gradients, Wilco do you want to keep them?
Wilco: Yes I really really like them.
Shadi: Shawn, will this address yourconcern even if we keep the gradient?
Shawn: Yes I beleive with those other additions it should be OK
Shadi: Great, we will try that and is there anything else on this?
<shawn> floating save https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments#floatingsave
Shadi: Next question is about the
fact that the "Save" button is at the very top.
... as you make your way through the application, you must
scroll back up to the nav bar to Save as you collect data. A
suggestion has been to have a floating "Save"
<metzessive> Entire menu
<yatil> +1
Jon: Or float the entire menu
<kevin> +1 to perhaps, maybe it being a good idea
<metzessive> +1 from me, and the people who tested
Shadi: That would have the beenfit of having key reources handy
<paulschantz> good point, wayne
Shadi: so that no matter where you are in the process the top nav will be at teh top of your screen
<metzessive> when you say "floated" you actually mean "fixed" right?
Wayne: Big problem for magnifcation
Wilco: We can set it only for certain size screen - we can address that
<metzessive> What about a visibility when the focus shifts back up on the page? Like what happens in Android UI?
Shadi: The entire code of this is online and they are using a branch of this tool in Wilco's organization. So we know it is possible to configure the Auto-save
Wilco: and it is already in there ifyou know how to use it
Wayne: At 200% the top bar takes
up about you are losing a lot of screen space
... about 1/6 of the screen and since we only have 50 words on
a screen that is huge
<paulschantz> wayne are you using text only or page zoom?
<metzessive> +1 to talk about menu bar
<metzessive> oops q+
Wayne: So we need to really think about how to float and where the break points will be
Jon: When you say floating, do you mean fixed on the top? Is it possible to note when zoom is activated and get rid of icons etc to alleviate the situation? One observation that was made is the length of time it takes to use the tool. The fixed nav would be a good mediation of that.
<Wayne> I will do screen shots.
Jon: See the Android UI as you shift focus down, the navigation disappears, but if you move focus up, the nav becomes visible to the user
Shadi: I understand but I dislike that function personally. Never know when/how it shows and can be confusing
Jon: I will send some links for possible solutions
Shadi: We are running to the end of Wilco's time so we need to determine what is absolutely needed in this version.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to mention close & open nav at top?
<metzessive> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1713771/how-to-detect-page-zoom-level-in-all-modern-browsers
Shawn: Brainstorm - if we have it always visible, could it inlcude a collapse option?
Shadi: Good idea but new feature...Wilco what is the effort?
Wilco: I am experimenting with the idea of float, need to consider screen height but if we inlcude a collapse that may not be an issue
Shadi: So to minimize the function, there are icons needed, placement questions, etc so I am sensing that this may be considerably more work.
Wilco: Yes it will take considerable work
Shadi: Several applications do
contain this sort of thing but it is something that needs
thinking, planning, testing
... we are likely to have a Control+S for some browsers but
what if we don't have the fixed nav here?
Shawn: I am afraid it is significant
<metzessive> I agree with Shawn
<metzessive> yes
<metzessive> i am
<paulschantz> how quickly are you iterating? I ask only half in jest
Jon: When you first see the page, you see the Save or hear it only once with a screen reader. Many of these testing will be doen in between other projects and people don't like to spend more time than they must. Having the save more available by far outweighs the investment
Paul: I would not want to hold up the release but could it come a few weeks down the road?
Shadi: No we have no resources for further iteration, we need to get as far down the road as we can. We are past the time of funding for this but are stretching Wilco's time to make this one the best possible
Paul: It is in GitHub, we could fork it
Wayne: Why not have a save button by each input like on the wiki
Shawn: Maybe on every Guideline level?
Shadi: Will people think that is a localized save?
Shawn: Possibly
Wayne: Vertical scrolling is not as significant as horizontal scrolling but nevertheless is significant in terms of time
<shawn> subtopic: Results for the entire sample
Shadi: Staying on Step 4, the
Audit the Sample, it is supposed to be flexible. Some will
evaluate page by page, some will provide reports only on the
sample level, not detail on every page. This is meant to
support all approaches.
... if you want to evaluate on a page-by-page level, the
labeling may not be as clear. There is a need to make it clear
that the tool will only report what you put in, that there are
functions hidden throughout the tool, and that results are
customizable.
Shawn: Making sure that people will understand that they may just make a determination for all of the sample, but some will be judging page by page. The result is reported for the full sample and later after having looked at all of them, would make the determination for the whole sample.
Shadi: Step 4 is the most complex
because it has so many various ways it might be used. When you
are first here...there is SC to evaluate, there are Principles,
Guidelines and expandble functions. At the SClevel, the expand
is a button on the left hand side
... is that clear?
... if you go to Step 3 and add a couple of pages, then go to
Step 4 and will ahve pages loaded
... I worry that "Show Results for Individual Pages" may not be
clear and you must know that before you choose that option you
are expected to choose those individual pages
Sharron: I agree that the instruction must be made more clear
Shawn: Show Results for Selected Pages?
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to suggest higlighting
Kevin: That button only becomes useful and purposeful when you have selected something, maybe disble the button until you have chosen individual pages to look at
Wilco: perhaps it wuld be clearer if we make the "Select Sample" to "Choose or Create" sample.
Shadi: Independently of that. Say we had a better name for that...
Shawn: What about Kevin's idea of only making it visible when pages are slected
Shadi: If the button is not visible how would you find that function, how would you know you could display info for slected pages?
Shawn: We may need to have help text...one or two lines that tell you what you can do here.
Wayne: Every other control is
more of a combo box, why not align with other controls?
... Just because there are only two selections is this not the
same function and could you not make it more of a toggle?
Shadi: Wilco can tell me if there is an option to do something like "Show All"
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to talk about tutorial
Wayne: To specify only certain pages in this presentation of it, is confusing
Kevin: Having an intro/help text is often done with a popup mini-tutorial that gives you an overview of the function that is available
Shadi: These have been good
ideas, thanks for sharing your thoughts, Wilco and I will take
this back and see what we can and cannot do.
... there were a few submitted comments that did not entirely
make sense to me and I will follow up off line
Wayne: I am sending more screen shots. I think it is remarkable that this application is fully operable at 400%
Shadi: Anything else on this page?
<metzessive> My testers really REALLY liked exporting the document
Shawn: Jon, can you summarize and submit your results with your testers?
Jon: I have a very small sample, but they think the ability to export was extremely helpful. Not much detailed feedback but the length of time to do the testing was more than expected.
Shadi: We have hopes that in future we will be able to add automated test results and have it integrated into the final report
<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
Shawn: We had a comment come in about the text alternatives on the Tables Concept page. I think it is too much to read the email, but Eric will walk us through what is the issue
Eric: The comment was that the small table images have incorrect alt text. For example, the basic tables icon says "Typically you have one row or column..." Some have no alt text because the text that follows is sufficient to describe. The comment was that the approach is inconsistant
Shawn: If you don't understand the issue, notice that the table image in the first one, Basic Tables is rendered as follows:
Eric: The image is not visually where it is in the code. So the alt text in the first one specifies more about the basic tables. It is not only describing the image but is trying to communicate the same info in the flow of how a screen reader would read it.
Sharron: What is the exact objection?
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to comment on the comment
Eric: That the alt text does not completely describe the image and the inconsistancy of sometimes using empty alt when the inline text is deemed to be sufficient
<Wayne> +1 for Kevin's comment
Kevin: I read the comment. It is not clear why the objection exists. It comes across that it is technically incorrect but it does not make clear what problem it might cause an actual user.
<Wayne> The alternative text is "equally" effective
<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2014Sep/0006.html
Shawn: Let's try to figure this
out so it does not go for another week. Please take a reading
break so we can figure this out.
... There is a technical objection that the presentation does
not exactly match how we decribe an approach in the images
tutorial. However, there does not seem to be an example of a
user who would miss information. That makes it difficult to
know how to address the comment.
<metzessive> Is there a TL;DR version?
Shadi: This may be an objection to a percieved bias that WAI optimizes for screen reader users.
<Jan> I have to get on another call - have a great weekend everyone.
Shawn: However the main reason for having the icons was for users with low vision and/or dyslexia and that use case would not be dependent on the text alternative in any case.
Jon: Is the complaint that we have alt text on images that should not have alt text?
Shawn: No I think the complaint is of the fact that the alt text does not precisely describe the iamge but rather is meant to facilitate general understanding of the intent of the image and is further meant to fit into the flow of the accompanying paragraph.
Jon: We (people with cognitive disabilities that affect the ability to process information simultaneously) may be looking at images on the screen, I expect the alt text to describe the image, not to provide context. I think visually. When I talk, I translate your words into pictures, and my pictures into text.
Shawn: So you look at alt text for images?
Jon: Yes, all the time. Sometimes as a translation device to help me understand the realtion to your words and my images. It can clarify a bit more about what you are talking about.
Shadi: OK the first alt text will
read "Typically will have one header..."
... so is this a case of reverse information for those who do
not use screen readers? Are users of alt text getting more
information that those who only see the icon. It may be seen as
a decorative image by sighted users.
<Zakim> EricE, you wanted to highlight iconic use of icons
Eric: The thing with the images is that there use iconic and therefore we may not need to provide as much informaiton as we do.
Shawn: So what is the proposed change?
<paulschantz> I do not see a clear request for change in Olaf's email
Eric: The text is also iconic, it presents what was my intention of choosing that icon.
Shadi: If that was the intent, it should be the same to all
Shawn: Info in alt text is more than what is in image
Eric: Alt text tells the same basic information as what is in the image from my POV
Wayne: If I cannot percieve an icon, the alternative text that I want usually is what is the function of the icon, a plain description of the visuals is often insufficient. Second is that whatever you decide is the purpose of an iconic image, it may not be meeting the task.
<metzessive> i believe that we should use alt text to explain what the image is.
Shawn: Where is everyone else on this issue?
<kevin> +1 metzessive
Shawn: Eric do you understand why there may be an objection?
Eric: Yes
<metzessive> -1 that these are decorative.
Shadi: So my opinion is that the icon information is provided inline and that the image should have empty alt
<Wayne> +1
Kevin: I am not quite sure that providing empty alt text meets the need described by Jon
Shawn: So what is your counterproposal?
Jon: They are not decorative. 1st is to explain what's going on in the grey vs white boxes. You want to explain what is going on there. If we did not need to talk about it it would be decorative.
Shawn: The words that accompany the icons, the paragraph text is what would be a description of the boxes, would it be repeated?
Jon: I don't think it is wrong to repeat text as alt and as text. When I look at alt text I want a quick overview of what is going on.
Shawn: Can anyone stay on the
call over time?
... For those that have to leave, review Forms Tutorial
Paul: In the context of this page, they are largely decorative and should probably just say "icon representing..."
Wayne: I misunderstood Jon, I change my vote and I like Jon's idea - a lot
Shawn: So you are in favor of getting the redundant information
Wayne: Not redundant so much as repeated
Sharron: I am not in favor of repeating the same alt text as the onscreen text
<metzessive> Sure. It could also be "an example of a basic table", but it could be better IMO if it clarified what was happening.
<metzessive> What about "example of basic table with a row of headers"? Short, to the point?
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decorative/#decorative-image-as-part-of-a-text-link
Shadi: Some have empty alt when the information onscreen is sufficient. We can move the rest into the parapgraph. The question really is whether the icons are illustrative or merely decorative. The reason the comment said it was contradictory is that we are not consistent with each other, we don't describe what they look like, what is the meaning of the white vs shading aspects of the icon. So
there was never an intent for this to be an informative image
Eric: Empty alt would be my preference and putting any additional info in the paragraph
Shawn: What are your thoughts about empty alt being the solution overall?
Jon: Well, you do not have to use the very same text as in the paragraph. Could use: "example of basic table with a row of headers"? and such as a short, to the point explanation of what the icon is meant to illustrate
Sharron: +1 I am OK with this
Wayne: Table for a week
Sharron: For what purpose?
Shawn: It is a challenge at this point we do not have a solution that will be accepted as the clear right answer for everyone.
Wayne: In this instance, both needs can be met. Jon and I will exchange emails. Our goal will be to find the alt text that can fill the needs and not contradict the intent of the tutorial.
<metzessive> agreed with being short and succinct
Shawn: To meet our expectations the alt will have to be very very short and succinct
Shadi: Send it to the list as soon as you have suggestions so others can weigh in
Shawn: For next week what is our action
Sharron: Leave as is until we have a solution
Shawn: We look forward to input
and will continue to brainstorm.
... Shadi, Eric can you send the email for the Forms review and
the type of review? Thanks all, until next week.
trackbot, end meeting
<shawn> Shawn: Any alt-text increases cognitive load for users who must read alt-text
<yatil> s/<figure><img><figcaption> Example for a basic table </figcaption></figure> ???/
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Kevin/Paul/ Succeeded: s/Wayn/Wayne/ Succeeded: s/Wilcon/Wilco/ Succeeded: s/hep/help/ Succeeded: s/and/at/ Succeeded: s/age/page/ Succeeded: s/me the same as/the same basic information as/ Succeeded: s/ojection/objection/ WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/<figure><img><figcaption> Example for a basic table </figcaption></figure> ???/ Succeeded: s/Hi sorry I have to go.// Succeeded: s/bye// Succeeded: s/Take care.// Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Default Present: Shadi, +1.615.417.aaaa, EricE, Shawn, +1.512.731.aabb, kevin, +1.202.276.aacc, AnnaBelle, +1.562.256.aadd, Wayne, Jan, Sharron, PaulSchantz, Wilco, metzessive Present: Shadi +1.615.417.aaaa EricE Shawn +1.512.731.aabb kevin +1.202.276.aacc AnnaBelle +1.562.256.aadd Wayne Jan Sharron PaulSchantz Wilco metzessive Found Date: 12 Sep 2014 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]