IRC log of eo on 2014-09-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:26:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:26:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-irc
12:26:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:26:22 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #eo
12:26:24 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3694
12:26:24 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
12:26:25 [trackbot]
Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
12:26:25 [trackbot]
Date: 12 September 2014
12:26:30 [Sharron]
Chair: Shawn
12:26:37 [Sharron]
Scribe: Sharron
12:27:10 [shadi]
zakim, call shadi-617
12:27:10 [Zakim]
ok, shadi; the call is being made
12:27:11 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:27:12 [Zakim]
+Shadi
12:27:27 [Wilco]
Wilco has joined #eo
12:28:29 [metzessive]
metzessive has joined #eo
12:28:41 [AnnaBelle]
AnnaBelle has joined #eo
12:28:42 [yatil]
yatil has joined #eo
12:28:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.615.417.aaaa
12:29:10 [yatil]
zakim, call EricE-Skype
12:29:10 [Zakim]
ok, yatil; the call is being made
12:29:12 [Zakim]
+EricE
12:29:13 [Zakim]
+Shawn
12:29:28 [yatil]
zakim, nick yatil is EricE
12:29:28 [Zakim]
ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
12:29:31 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
12:29:31 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
12:29:34 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.731.aabb
12:29:44 [Zakim]
+??P3
12:29:53 [kevin]
zakim, ??P3 is me
12:29:53 [Zakim]
+kevin; got it
12:29:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.276.aacc
12:30:03 [AnnaBelle]
zakim, aaaa is me
12:30:03 [Zakim]
+AnnaBelle; got it
12:30:16 [metzessive]
zakim, aacc is Jon
12:30:16 [Zakim]
+Jon; got it
12:30:23 [AnnaBelle]
\me Yeah. Will miss you guys!
12:30:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.562.256.aadd
12:31:16 [paulschantz]
paulschantz has joined #eo
12:31:44 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
12:31:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, AnnaBelle, Shawn, EricE (muted), +1.512.731.aabb, kevin, Jon, +1.562.256.aadd
12:32:02 [shawn]
zakim, aadd is Wayne
12:32:02 [Zakim]
+Wayne; got it
12:32:13 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:32:30 [shawn]
zakim, aabb is Jan
12:32:30 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
12:32:47 [Sharron]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Sharron
12:32:47 [Zakim]
+Sharron; got it
12:33:06 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
12:33:06 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
12:33:23 [Wayne]
Wayne has joined #eo
12:33:32 [Zakim]
+PaulSchantz
12:33:53 [Sharron]
Topic: Implementing Web Accessibility
12:34:35 [Sharron]
Shawn: This is ready for complete and thorough review. Use GitHub if you re comformatble with that. or email or wiki.
12:34:50 [Sharron]
...anyone have discussion of that?
12:35:28 [Sharron]
Kevin: Very open for any comments, suggestions, etc
12:35:40 [Sharron]
Shawn: So everyone add to to-do
12:35:52 [Sharron]
Topic: WCAG-EM Report Tool
12:36:36 [Sharron]
Shadi: We got just a couple of comments, thanks to those of you who got people to use it, we got quite a few comments. Most are not yet implemented
12:36:44 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
12:36:44 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
12:37:19 [kevin]
zakim, mute me
12:37:19 [Zakim]
kevin should now be muted
12:37:58 [Sharron]
Shadi: I have tried to make clear those items that have been discussed and that are scheduled for implementation. We need to discuss three comments. Link from agenda to the wiki to find those comments
12:38:17 [Sharron]
...let's look at second comment,
12:38:21 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
12:38:21 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
12:38:51 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:39:12 [shawn]
zakim, IPcaller is Wilco
12:39:12 [Zakim]
+Wilco; got it
12:39:26 [shawn]
borders & shading https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments#borders
12:39:30 [shadi]
http://w3c.github.io/wcag-em-report-tool/dist/#/audit/scope
12:39:49 [Jan]
Jan has joined #eo
12:41:09 [Sharron]
Shadi: OK Let's look at first comment, "borders and shading." If you look at the input area, Wilco has done one round of emphasis so now we should consider if this is good.
12:42:04 [Sharron]
Shawn: The areas look kind of 3-D. I am used to the background with shading but the field itself being entirely white.
12:42:17 [Sharron]
...the gradient gives it a look of a button.
12:43:07 [Sharron]
Kevin: None of the visual aspects of this has come up in my testing with others. In fact I got very good feedback on the overall look.
12:43:57 [Sharron]
Shadi: Typically the editable aspect would be white to indicate that it can be filled
12:44:24 [Sharron]
Wayne: I don't think it is the color, but the gradient
12:44:32 [Sharron]
s/Kevin/Paul
12:44:57 [Sharron]
Shawn: You could have a darker border with the text box area being white
12:45:46 [Sharron]
Shadi: The text area is so large that we wanted to indicate that focus is within the text box regardless of zoom
12:46:10 [Sharron]
...are you then suggesting making borders larger and darker. Wilco?
12:46:21 [Sharron]
Wilco: I don't see any problem.
12:47:07 [Sharron]
Paul: I have a question about when focus comes into the filed, could the border not change color
12:47:24 [Sharron]
Shadi: It is the way it works now with this one.
12:47:32 [Sharron]
Wayne: I like how it is now
12:47:53 [Sharron]
Paul: I do too, but the color change in the border can be more obvious
12:48:44 [Sharron]
Wilco: Changing the background color will have an impact on more than this aspect.
12:49:40 [Sharron]
Paul: The light background color was requested for an app we built at CSUN as an alternative to plain white which is too bright for some visual disabilites
12:50:09 [Sharron]
...it is a subtle change but makes a great deal of difference
12:50:33 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/
12:51:05 [metzessive]
Sorry Sharron. I just saw this. It was me.
12:51:52 [shawn]
q+ to say browser color setting
12:52:54 [Sharron]
Shadi: The very faint horizontal border will suffer the most. If we can change that would it wok to make the background darker?
12:53:33 [Sharron]
...one thing I notice on the tutorials is this very thin and unobtrusive red line at the top. Might that be useful?
12:53:57 [Sharron]
Shawn: The report tool has no W3C logo so branding?
12:54:01 [AnnaBelle]
q+
12:54:05 [shawn]
ack me
12:54:05 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to say browser color setting
12:54:06 [Sharron]
Shadi: It has W3C colors
12:55:07 [Sharron]
Shawn:I was checking to see if this would accept my own application of color, not found it yet, but wanted to agree with Paul's comment about bright white
12:55:15 [shawn]
Paul's example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014JulSep/0067.html
12:56:03 [Sharron]
AnnaBelle: We need to make note of the fact that we don't have clear connection to W3C. I had mentioned it before but wanted to reintroduce the fact.
12:57:04 [metzessive]
Zakim, mute me
12:57:04 [Zakim]
sorry, metzessive, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:57:13 [metzessive]
metzessive is Jon
12:57:18 [Sharron]
Shadi: I am hearing that there is a preference for a slightly shaded page background. That will allow us to have the input field become white and could darken and strengthen the borders. Will come back to the gradient question.
12:57:33 [paulschantz]
It's a subtle change, but it really makes a big difference (our app had a white background at first).
12:57:38 [metzessive]
zakim, Jon is metzessive
12:57:38 [Zakim]
+metzessive; got it
12:57:43 [metzessive]
zakim, mute me
12:57:43 [Zakim]
metzessive should now be muted
12:57:49 [shawn]
+1
12:57:54 [Sharron]
...will add slightly darker background, field inputs white, stronger borders if needed.
12:58:18 [Sharron]
...and about gradients, Wilco do you want to keep them?
12:58:29 [Sharron]
Wilco: Yes I really really like them.
12:59:06 [Sharron]
Shadi: Shawn, will this address yourconcern even if we keep the gradient?
12:59:24 [Sharron]
Shawn: Yes I beleive with those other additions it should be OK
13:00:06 [Sharron]
Shadi: Great, we will try that and is there anything else on this?
13:00:08 [shawn]
floating save https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG-EM_Report_Tool_Comments#floatingsave
13:00:48 [Sharron]
Shadi: Next question is about the fact that the "Save" button is at the very top.
13:02:08 [Sharron]
...as you make your way through the application, you must scroll back up to the nav bar to Save as you collect data. A suggestion has been to have a floating "Save"
13:02:24 [metzessive]
Entire menu
13:02:32 [yatil]
+1
13:02:41 [Sharron]
Jon: Or float the entire menu
13:03:04 [kevin]
+1 to perhaps, maybe it being a good idea
13:03:05 [metzessive]
+1 from me, and the people who tested
13:03:19 [Sharron]
Shadi: That would have the beenfit of having key reources handy
13:03:56 [paulschantz]
good point, wayne
13:04:12 [Sharron]
...so that no matter where you are in the process the top nav will be at teh top of your screen
13:04:17 [metzessive]
when you say "floated" you actually mean "fixed" right?
13:04:28 [Sharron]
Wayn: Big problem for magnifcation
13:04:48 [Sharron]
Wilco: We can set it only for certain size screen - we can address that
13:04:50 [shawn]
q+
13:04:53 [shawn]
q- a
13:05:03 [kevin]
s/Wayn/Wayne
13:05:35 [metzessive]
What about a visibility when the focus shifts back up on the page? Like what happens in Android UI?
13:05:59 [shawn]
q+ to ask about top menu items on first page
13:06:09 [Sharron]
Shadi: The entire code of this is online and they are using a branch of this tool in Wilco's organization. So we know it is possible to configure the Auto-save
13:06:26 [Sharron]
Wilco: and it is already in there ifyou know how to use it
13:07:36 [Sharron]
Wayne: At 200% the top bar takes up about you are losing a lot of screen space
13:07:52 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
13:07:52 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
13:08:44 [Sharron]
Wayne: about 1/6 of the screen and since we only have 50 words on a screen that is huge
13:08:55 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
13:08:55 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
13:09:26 [metzessive]
Zakim, unmute me
13:09:26 [Zakim]
metzessive should no longer be muted
13:09:32 [paulschantz]
wayne are you using text only or page zoom?
13:09:49 [metzessive]
+1 to talk about menu bar
13:10:00 [metzessive]
oops q+
13:10:03 [Sharron]
Wayne: So we need to really think about how to float and where the break points will be
13:10:06 [metzessive]
q+
13:10:21 [shawn]
q-
13:10:27 [shawn]
ack m
13:12:17 [Sharron]
Jon: When you say floating, do you mean fixed on the top? Is it possible to note when zoom is activated and get rid of icons etc to alleviate the situation? One observation that was made is the length of time it takes to use the tool. The fixed nav would be a good mediation of that.
13:12:20 [Wayne]
I will do screen shots.
13:12:22 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
13:12:22 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
13:13:27 [Sharron]
Jon: See the Android UI as you shift focus down, the navigation disappears, but if you move focus up, the nav becomes visible to the user
13:14:11 [Sharron]
Shadi: I understand but I dislike that function personally. Never know when/how it shows and can be confusing
13:14:17 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
13:14:17 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
13:14:40 [shawn]
q+ to mention close & open nav at top?
13:14:52 [Sharron]
Jon: I will send some links for possible solutions
13:15:25 [Sharron]
Shadi: We are running to the end of Wilco's time so we need to determine what is absolutely needed in this version.
13:15:30 [shawn]
ack me
13:15:30 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to mention close & open nav at top?
13:15:48 [metzessive]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1713771/how-to-detect-page-zoom-level-in-all-modern-browsers
13:16:11 [Sharron]
Shawn: Brainstorm - if we have it always visible, could it inlcude a collapse option?
13:16:38 [Sharron]
Shadi: Good idea but new feature...Wilcon what is the effort?
13:17:12 [shawn]
s/Wilcon/Wilco
13:17:39 [Sharron]
Wilco: I am experimenting with the idea of float, need to consider screen height but if we inlcude a collapse that may not be an issue
13:18:15 [Sharron]
Shadi: So to minimize the function, there are icons needed, placement questions, etc so I am sensing that this may be considerably more work.
13:18:28 [Sharron]
Wilco: Yes it will take considerable work
13:19:14 [Sharron]
Shadi: Several applications do contain this sort of thing but it is something that needs thinking, planning, testing
13:19:57 [Sharron]
...we are likely to have a Control+S for some browsers but what if we don't have the fixed nav here?
13:20:15 [Sharron]
Shawn: I am afraid it is significant
13:20:21 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
13:20:21 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
13:20:24 [metzessive]
I agree with Shawn
13:20:30 [metzessive]
yes
13:20:38 [metzessive]
i am
13:21:07 [paulschantz]
how quickly are you iterating? I ask only half in jest
13:21:39 [paulschantz]
q+
13:22:25 [Sharron]
Jon: When you first see the page, you see the Save or hear it only once with a screen reader. Many of these testing will be doen in between other projects and people don't like to spend more time than they must. Having the save more available by far outweighs the investment
13:22:26 [shawn]
ack p
13:22:34 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
13:22:34 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
13:23:01 [Sharron]
Paul: I would not want to hold up the release but could it come a few weeks down the road?
13:23:51 [Sharron]
Shadi: No we have no resources for further iteration, we need to get as far down the road as we can. We are past the time of funding for this but are stretching Wilco's time to make this one the best possible
13:24:07 [Sharron]
Paul: It is in GitHub, we could fork it
13:24:53 [Sharron]
Wayne: Why not have a save button by each input like on the wiki
13:25:10 [Sharron]
Shawn: Maybe on every Guideline level?
13:25:23 [Sharron]
Shadi: Will people think that is a localized save?
13:25:30 [Sharron]
Shawn:Possibly
13:26:23 [Sharron]
Wayne: Vertical scrolling is not as significant as horizontal scrolling but nevertheless is significant in terms of time
13:26:56 [shawn]
subtopic: Results for the entire sample
13:27:57 [Sharron]
Shadi: Staying on Step 4, the Audit the Sample, it is supposed to be flexible. Some will evaluate page by page, some will provide reports only on the sample level, not detail on every page. This is meant to support all approaches.
13:29:43 [metzessive]
Zakim, mute me
13:29:43 [Zakim]
metzessive should now be muted
13:30:04 [Sharron]
...if you want to evaluate on a page-by-page level, the labeling may not be as clear. There is a need to make it clear that the tool will only report what you put in, that there are functions hidden throughout the tool, and that results are customizable.
13:31:33 [Sharron]
Shawn: Making sure that people will understand that they may just make a determination for all of the sample, but some will be judging page by page. The result is reported for the full sample and later after having looked at all of them, would make the determination for the whole sample.
13:33:06 [Sharron]
Shadi: Step 4 is the most complex because it has so many various ways it might be used. When you are first here...there is SC to evaluate, there are Principles, Guidelines and expandble functions. At the SClevel, the expand is a button on the left hand side
13:33:22 [Sharron]
...is that clear?
13:34:13 [Sharron]
...if you go to Step 3 and add a couple of pages, then go to Step 4 and will ahve pages loaded
13:35:03 [Sharron]
...I worry that "Show Results for Individual Pages" may not be clear and you must know that before you choose that option you are expected to choose those individual pages
13:35:22 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
13:35:22 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
13:36:09 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
13:36:09 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
13:36:28 [Sharron]
Sharron: I agree that the instruction must be made more clear
13:36:47 [kevin]
q+ to suggest higlighting
13:36:48 [Sharron]
Shawn: Show Results for Selected Pages?
13:37:07 [kevin]
ack me
13:37:08 [shawn]
ack k
13:37:09 [Zakim]
kevin, you wanted to suggest higlighting
13:37:33 [Wilco]
q+
13:38:17 [kevin]
zakim, mute me
13:38:17 [Zakim]
kevin should now be muted
13:38:25 [Sharron]
Kevin: That button only becomes useful and purposeful when you have selected something, maybe disble the button until you have chosen individual pages to look at
13:38:34 [shawn]
ack w
13:39:09 [Sharron]
Wilco: perhaps it wuld be clearer if we make the "Select Sample" to "Choose or Create" sample.
13:40:20 [Sharron]
Shadi: Independently of that. Say we had a better name for that...
13:40:44 [Sharron]
Shawn: What about Kevin's idea of only making it visible when pages are slected
13:41:32 [Sharron]
Shadi: If the button is not visible how would you find that function, how would you know you could display info for slected pages?
13:42:02 [Sharron]
Shawn: We may need to have hep text...one or two lines that tell you what you can do here.
13:42:05 [kevin]
q+ to talk about tutorial
13:42:10 [Sharron]
s/hep/help
13:42:57 [Sharron]
Wayne: Every other control is more of a combo box, why not align with other controls?
13:43:48 [Sharron]
...Just because there are only two selections is this not the same function and could you not make it more of a toggle?
13:44:46 [Sharron]
Shadi: Wilco can tell me if there is an option to do something like "Show All"
13:45:13 [kevin]
ack me
13:45:14 [Zakim]
kevin, you wanted to talk about tutorial
13:45:16 [Sharron]
Wayne: To specify only certain pages in this presentation of it, is confusing
13:46:19 [Sharron]
Kevin: Having an intro/help text is often done with a popup mini-tutorial that gives you an overview of the function that is available
13:46:51 [kevin]
zakim, mute me
13:46:51 [Zakim]
kevin should now be muted
13:48:06 [Sharron]
Shadi: These have been good ideas, thanks for sharing your thoughts, Wilco and I will take this back and see what we can and cannot do.
13:48:59 [Sharron]
...there were a few submitted comments that did not entirely make sense to me and I will follow up off line
13:49:25 [Sharron]
Wayne: I am sending more screen shots. I think it is remarkable that this application is fully operable and 400%
13:49:36 [Sharron]
s/and/at
13:50:29 [Sharron]
Shadi: Anything else on this age?
13:50:34 [Sharron]
s/age/page
13:50:36 [metzessive]
My testers really REALLY liked exporting the document
13:51:04 [metzessive]
Zakim, unmute me
13:51:04 [Zakim]
metzessive should no longer be muted
13:51:04 [Sharron]
Shawn: Jon, can you summarize and submit your results with your testers?
13:52:23 [Sharron]
Jon: I have a very small sample, but they think the ability to export was extremely helpful. Not much detailed feedback but the length of time to do the testing was more than expected.
13:53:04 [shawn]
zakim, who is noisey?
13:53:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, shawn.
13:53:11 [shawn]
zakim, who is making noise?
13:53:12 [metzessive]
Zakim, mute me
13:53:12 [Zakim]
metzessive should now be muted
13:53:18 [Sharron]
Shadi: We have hopes that in future we will be able to add automated test results and have it integrated into the final report
13:53:23 [Zakim]
shawn, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Shawn (12%), Shadi (66%)
13:53:31 [Sharron]
Topic: Tutorials
13:53:58 [Zakim]
-Wilco
13:54:22 [shawn]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
13:54:36 [Sharron]
Shawn: We had a comment come in about the text alternatives on the Tables Concept page. I think it is too much to read the email, but Eric will walk us through what is the issue
13:54:38 [yatil]
ack me
13:56:58 [Sharron]
Eric: The comment was that the small table images have incorrect alt text. For example, the basic tables icon says "Typically you have one row or column..." Some have no alt text because the text that follows is sufficient to describe. The comment was that the approach is inconsistant
13:58:17 [Sharron]
Shawn: If you don't understand the issue, notice that the table image in the first one, Basic Tables is rendered as follows:
13:59:32 [Sharron]
Eric: The image is not visually where it is in the code. So the alt text in the first one specifies more about the basic tables. It is not only describing the image but is trying to communicate the same info in the flow of how a screen reader would read it.
13:59:43 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
13:59:43 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
14:00:15 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me?
14:00:15 [Zakim]
sorry, Sharron, I do not know which phone connection belongs to me?
14:00:23 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
14:00:23 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
14:00:31 [kevin]
ack me
14:00:43 [Sharron]
Sharron: What is the exact objection?
14:01:00 [kevin]
q+ to comment on the comment
14:01:13 [kevin]
ack me
14:01:14 [Zakim]
kevin, you wanted to comment on the comment
14:01:17 [Sharron]
Eric: That the alt text does not completely describe the image and the inconsistancy of sometimes using empty alt when the inline text is deemed to be sufficient
14:01:58 [kevin]
zakim, mute me
14:01:58 [Zakim]
kevin should now be muted
14:02:01 [Wayne]
+1 for Kevin's comment
14:02:15 [Sharron]
Kevin: I read the comment. It is not clear why the objection exists. It comes across that it is technically incorrect but it does not make clear what problem it might cause an actual user.
14:02:50 [Wayne]
The alternative text is "equally" effective
14:02:54 [shawn]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2014Sep/0006.html
14:03:08 [Sharron]
Shawn: Let's try to figure this out so it does not go for another week. Please take a reading break so we can figure this out.
14:07:32 [shadi]
q+
14:07:52 [shadi]
ack me
14:08:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: There is a technical objection that the presentation does not exactly match how we decribe an approach in the images tutorial. However, there does not seem to be an example of a user who would miss information. That makes it difficult to know how to address the comment.
14:08:21 [Zakim]
-Jan
14:08:29 [yatil]
q+
14:08:30 [metzessive]
Is there a TL;DR version?
14:08:46 [Sharron]
Shadi: This may be an objection to a percieved bias that WAI optimizes for screen reader users.
14:09:00 [Jan]
I have to get on another call - have a great weekend everyone.
14:09:23 [yatil]
ack me
14:09:24 [metzessive]
q+
14:09:31 [metzessive]
zakim, unmute me
14:09:31 [Zakim]
metzessive should no longer be muted
14:09:42 [shadi]
q+
14:09:48 [shawn]
ack j
14:09:58 [yatil]
ack me
14:10:02 [yatil]
ack metz
14:10:05 [Sharron]
Shawn: However the main reason for having the icons was for users with low vision and/or dyslexia and that use case would not be dependent on the text alternative in any case.
14:10:44 [Sharron]
Jon: Is the complaint that we have alt text on images that should not have alt text?
14:11:01 [yatil]
q+ to highlight iconic use of icons
14:12:24 [Sharron]
Shawn: No I think the complaint is of the fact that the alt text does not precisely describe the iamge but rather is meant to facilitate general understanding of the intent of the image and is further meant to fit into the flow of the accompanying paragraph.
14:14:59 [Sharron]
Jon: We (people with cognitive disabilities that affect the ability to process information simultaneously) may be looking at images on the screen, I expect the alt text to describe the image, not to provide context. I think visually. When I talk, I translate your words into pictures, and my pictures into text.
14:15:08 [Sharron]
Shawn: So you look at alt text for images?
14:15:16 [Wayne]
q+
14:15:51 [shawn]
ack sh
14:15:53 [shadi]
ack me
14:15:57 [Sharron]
Jon: Yes, all the time. Sometimes as a translation device to help me understand the realtion to your words and my images. It can clarify a bit more about what you are talking about.
14:16:50 [Sharron]
Shadi: OK the first alt text will read "Typically will have one header..."
14:17:58 [Sharron]
...so is this a case of reverse information for those who do not use screen readers? Are users of alt text getting more information that those who only see the icon. It may be seen as a decorative image by sighted users.
14:18:15 [shawn]
ack e
14:18:15 [Zakim]
EricE, you wanted to highlight iconic use of icons
14:18:56 [Sharron]
Eric: The thing with the images is that there use iconic and therefore we may not need to provide as much informaiton as we do.
14:19:05 [Sharron]
Shawn: So what is the proposed change?
14:19:28 [paulschantz]
I do not see a clear request for change in Olaf's email
14:19:30 [Sharron]
Eric: The text is also iconic, it presents what was my intention of choosing that icon.
14:19:59 [Sharron]
Shadi: If that was the intent, it should be the same to all
14:20:10 [Sharron]
Shawn: Info in alt text is more than what is in image
14:20:21 [shawn]
ack w
14:20:33 [Sharron]
Eric: Alt text tells me the same as what is in the image from my POV
14:21:36 [yatil]
s/me the same as/the same basic information as/
14:22:40 [Sharron]
Wayne: If I cannot percieve an icon, the alternative text that I want usually is what is the function of the icon, a plain description of the visuals is often insufficient. Second is that whatever you decide is the purpose of an iconic image, it may not be meeting the task.
14:23:06 [metzessive]
i believe that we should use alt text to explain what the image is.
14:23:53 [shadi]
q+
14:23:54 [Sharron]
Shawn: Where is everyone else on this issue?
14:24:01 [kevin]
+1 metzessive
14:24:31 [Sharron]
...Eric do you understand why there may be an ojection?
14:24:36 [Sharron]
Eric: Yes
14:24:42 [metzessive]
-1 that these are decorative.
14:24:49 [yatil]
s/ojection/objection
14:25:17 [Sharron]
Shadi: So my opinion is that the icon information is provided inline and that the image should have empty alt
14:25:22 [Wayne]
+1
14:25:42 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
14:25:42 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
14:26:01 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
14:26:01 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
14:26:17 [kevin]
ack me
14:26:50 [Sharron]
Kevin: I am not quite sure that providing empty alt text meets the need described by Jon
14:27:01 [Sharron]
Shawn: So what is your counterproposal?
14:27:16 [paulschantz]
q+
14:27:37 [shadi]
q-
14:28:25 [Wayne]
q+
14:28:31 [Sharron]
Jon: They are not decorative. 1st is to explain what's going on in the grey vs white boxes. You want to explain what is going on there. If we did not need to talk about it it would be decorative.
14:29:23 [Sharron]
Shawn: The words that accompany the icons, the paragraph text is what would be a description of the boxes, would it be repeated?
14:30:20 [Sharron]
Jon: I don't think it is wrong to repeat text as alt and as text. When I look at alt text I want a quick overview of what is going on.
14:30:25 [shawn]
q?
14:30:31 [Sharron]
Shawn: Can anyone stay on the call over time?
14:30:38 [shawn]
ack p
14:30:57 [Sharron]
Shawn: For those that have to leave, review Forms Tutorial
14:31:00 [Zakim]
-AnnaBelle
14:31:35 [Sharron]
Paul: In the context of this page, they are largely decorative and should probably just say "icon representing..."
14:31:40 [shawn]
ack w
14:32:05 [Sharron]
Wayne: I misunderstood Jon, I change my vote and I like Jon's idea - a lot
14:32:31 [Sharron]
Shawn: So you are in favor of getting the redundant information
14:32:47 [Sharron]
Wayne: Not redundant so much as repeated
14:32:47 [Zakim]
-PaulSchantz
14:33:06 [Sharron]
Sharron: I am not in favor of repeating the same alt text as the onscreen text
14:33:21 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:33:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, EricE, kevin, metzessive, Wayne, Sharron (muted)
14:33:23 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
14:33:24 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
14:34:37 [metzessive]
Sure. It could also be "an example of a basic table", but it could be better IMO if it clarified what was happening.
14:34:39 [Sharron]
zakim, mute me
14:34:39 [Zakim]
Sharron should now be muted
14:36:17 [metzessive]
What about "example of basic table with a row of headers"? Short, to the point?
14:36:45 [shadi]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decorative/#decorative-image-as-part-of-a-text-link
14:38:25 [Sharron]
Shadi: Some have empty alt when the information onscreen is sufficient. We can move the rest into the parapgraph. The question really is whether the icons are illustrative or merely decorative. The reason the comment said it was contradictory is that we are not consistent with each other, we don't describe what they look like, what is the meaning of the white vs shading aspects of the icon. So
14:38:25 [Sharron]
there was never an intent for this to be an informative image
14:39:23 [Sharron]
Eric: Empty alt would be my preference and putting any additional info in the paragraph
14:40:20 [Sharron]
Shawn: What are your thoughts about empty alt being the solution overall?
14:41:33 [Sharron]
Jon: Well, you do not have to use the very same text as in the paragraph. Could use: "example of basic table with a row of headers"? and such as a short, to the point explanation of what the icon is meant to illustrate
14:41:56 [Sharron]
Sharron: +1 I am OK with this
14:42:23 [Sharron]
zakim, unmute me
14:42:23 [Zakim]
Sharron should no longer be muted
14:42:48 [Sharron]
Wayne: Table for a week
14:43:04 [Sharron]
Sharron: For what purpose?
14:44:16 [Sharron]
Shawn: It is a challenge at this point we do not have a solution that will be accepted as the clear right answer for everyone.
14:45:03 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:45:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, EricE, kevin, metzessive, Wayne, Sharron
14:46:45 [Sharron]
Wayne: In this instance, both needs can be met. Jon and I will exchange emails. Our goal will be to find the alt text that can fill the needs and not contradict the intent of the tutorial.
14:47:13 [metzessive]
agreed with being short and succinct
14:47:31 [Sharron]
Shawn: To meet our expectations the alt will have to be very very short and succinct
14:48:14 [Sharron]
Shadi: Send it to the list as soon as you have suggestions so others can weigh in
14:49:03 [Sharron]
Shawn: For next week what is our action
14:49:40 [Sharron]
Sharron: Leave as is until we have a solution
14:51:37 [Sharron]
Shawn: We look forward to input and will continue to brainstorm.
14:52:12 [Zakim]
-Shadi
14:52:17 [Zakim]
-kevin
14:52:23 [Sharron]
...Shadi, Eric can you send the email for the Forms review and the type of review? Thanks all, until next week.
14:52:43 [Sharron]
trackbot, end meeting
14:52:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
14:52:43 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, +1.615.417.aaaa, EricE, Shawn, +1.512.731.aabb, kevin, +1.202.276.aacc, AnnaBelle, +1.562.256.aadd, Wayne, Jan, Sharron,
14:52:46 [Zakim]
... PaulSchantz, Wilco, metzessive
14:52:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:52:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes.html trackbot
14:52:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
14:52:52 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
15:01:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #eo
15:01:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-irc
15:02:06 [metzessive]
Hi sorry I have to go.
15:02:08 [metzessive]
Take care.
15:02:09 [shawn]
Shawn: Any alt-text increases cognitive load for users who must read alt-text
15:02:11 [metzessive]
bye
15:02:16 [Zakim]
-metzessive
15:02:30 [Zakim]
-EricE
15:02:48 [Zakim]
-Wayne
15:02:49 [Zakim]
WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
15:02:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Shadi, +1.615.417.aaaa, EricE, Shawn, +1.512.731.aabb, kevin, +1.202.276.aacc, AnnaBelle, +1.562.256.aadd, Wayne, Jan, Sharron, PaulSchantz, Wilco, metzessive
15:02:57 [yatil]
s/<figure><img><figcaption> Example for a basic table </figcaption></figure> ???/
15:03:35 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes.html shawn
15:04:32 [shawn]
s/Hi sorry I have to go.//
15:04:40 [shawn]
s/bye//
15:04:56 [shawn]
s/Take care.//
15:04:59 [shawn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/12-eo-minutes.html shawn
16:59:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #eo