HongLiu: : W3C has been successful with web standards today

HongLiu: and it needs more work on user experience on mobile devices
... in this break our session, I would like to dicusss with you how we could improve that with W3C
... we can start with the difference experiences between mobile devices and the desktop devices
... let's find the list of possible reqirements for improvement
... 1st, the difference between mobile devices and desktop computers
... my point views, the first screen of mobile devices is smaller than the desktop computers

Jeanne: the accessibility experience is different on a mobile device than on a desktop computer

Tomohiro: annoying ads

RayD: some webpages adapt to the contents in the way you can not read it

HongLiu: mobile devices are closer to our human bodies, we carry them all day long

Arnaud: the vast majority of people (80-90%) carried them phones with them 24 hours

Chunming: when I use apps on the phone, I think more about the traffic costs

Ruinan: tablets and smart watches should be taken into consideration too

Jeanne: the offline usage too

Arnaud: when you dont have network connection, the user experience of web apps on mobile devices can be bad

<chunming> [offline usage experience is equally important]

<chunming> [if we have several mobile devices, say, phone, pad, and watch, we may need a kind of interconnection, and smooth transfer of content between difference screen/devices.

RayD: when you lose the network connection, you might not be able to access to the web page you downloaded before

HongLiu: I'm new to W3C, I relay on you to brief me with the current work done by W3C to improve these problems

RayD: some webpages are designed to adapt for mobile devices, some are not

Jeanne: the responsive design is one option for that

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/mobilweb

Mohammed: it is from the mobile web initiative, some guidelines there; this is a bit confusing since different groups focusing the same things

ChunmingHu: what about the 2nd screen WG?

Mohammed: not usre if it is for the mobile devices

<kawada> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work

HongLiu: when we try to reivew the video streaming, we find it difficult to transcode the pages

<jeanne> Quarterly Report on all the W3C work pertaining to mobile <- http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/

Mohammed: if you want to stream your content to the mobile deivces, it is not the devices but the contents that matter

Jeanne: there is a quaterly report on the progress of W3C's work on mobile

<chunming> also a chinese version news: http://www.chinaw3c.org/archives/502/

Jeanne: suggest you to read it

<chunming> media source extension

DongYoung: about the adapting streaming, media source extensions (MSE) extention can help

HongLiu: so we get back to the obstacles of daily use of mobile devices，why you prefer native apps over web apps

Ruinan: sometimes web apps can be slow

ChunmingHu: offline experience is not good, as mentioned

Shinitrou: web app has limited features
... native apps have features that web apps dont have. I dont know which features the web has

Mohammed: in the mobile group, W3C is trying to indentify the difference between the web app and native app

HongLiu: we think the combination of web app and native app can be the best solution for today
... from the user point of view
... we dont want to adapt to different devices and platforms

Arnaud: I would like to set up a prefernece on my browser avoid annoying advertisement for native apps

Mohammed: should focusing the topcis that can be worked

<Arnaud> actually I said to avoid

Jeanne: touch experience is different that mouse experience, there is no hover

<Arnaud> but it can be extended to ads in general

HongLiu: now we work on the requirements for improvement
... 1st.for the adaption of the web page

RayD: W3C should be more proactive to provide options for developers

Dong-Young: there was MobileOk validator for web content that can help

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/

Jeanne: there are mobile best practices

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/

RayD: to what extend do we know if the developers are paying attention to it?

<jeanne> Mobile OK checker -> http://validator.w3.org/mobile/

<mdadas> related to difference between native and web apps : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Closing_the_gap_with_native

HongLiu: anything the browsers can do to make the web pages dispalyed in a better way

<kawada> mobile ok is a little bit old -- not for smart phones.

HongLiu: a few years ago, the web pages were not displyed well on mobile devices, some browsers did something to improve the display on the mobile devices, e.g.UCweb

Ruinan: they transcode the webpage for mobile devices

HongLiu: do we need to standardize them?

RayD: should the burden be on HTML or on the browser?

Chunming: one of the approach is to ask the page developer to have the responsive design to think of the mobile device, another approach is to find some simple rules, e.g. JS library, and embed them to the page
... some of the browsers are doing the similar job to find the rules do to the transcode
... there is not a standard on this

HongLiu: for most app break when connection lose, do we have any solution or efforts on that from W3C?

@@@: service worker might be an option in terms of kawada

HongLiu: do we have any documents define the best practices?
... if we do, we can have the info available for the develpers

Jeanne: yes, we do

<chunming> the mobile web best practice

RayD: does it address the behavior of the browser or the authors?

Jeanne: for the authors

<kawada> The item 2 is I think being discussed as "Offline" in web & mobile IG. https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/uaag.php

<chunming> i found a group note on offline web applications, http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/

<chunming> but i am not sure if what happened after that.

HongLiu: the best practices can also be shared with web app developers

<jeanne> User AGent Accessibility Guidelines addresses accessibility of browsers

HongLiu: some of the web apps do not work well when network connection is down
.

<wuwei> is there a repository about online-webapps?

Jeff: we have some web&mobile activity in W3C

<chunming> i know there's some W3C work on Web Cache, in which, the programmer will define which part of the web application could be cached, and which part should not. this should be the approach W3C has done to improve the offline experiences.

Jeff: web & Mobile IG
... it would be sensible to bring these to the IG
... to see if they have addressed that
... if not, maybe set up a CG to solve it?

Kawada: Natasha from GSMA wants people to work on TF on @@

Muhammed: good idea to bring these requirements to the related groups

HongLiu: agreed

<chunming> W3C CR for application cache: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/browsers.html#appcache

HongLiu: the reason we meet here is to try to find the work that can help them
... we do list some new issues here, e.g. ads on mobile devices
... mobile ads can be a big market. but sometimes they can be annoying to the uers, due to the small screen or other facts particular to the mobile devices
... Arnaud just proposed to have a preference on the browsers to avoid this kind of annoying experience
... on PCs, we have hover support, on mobile devices, we do not have that

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui

Jeanne: the indie-Ui WG of W3C is working on that

<mdadas> Web Mobile IG has a github https://github.com/w3c-webmob

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-events/

ChunmingHu: indie_UI is trying to extract events and make the physical events linked to the high level semantic events

Jeanne: pointer event might also relate to it

HongLiu: to sum up this session
... we have defined some different requirements for better user experience on the mobile devices,

<jeanne> Pointer Events -> http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/

HongLiu: we do have a review what W3C has done to improve the mobile user experience
... and found W3C have a IG called web&mobile IG

<chunming> but I am not sure if IndieUI could solve the problem of "lack of hover support"

HongLiu: we try to describe the personal usage of mobile devices, e.g. the use of web app and web TV
... 5 or 6 problems have been indentified by the iG
... need to take a closer look of the work of this IG
... there are a few new topics we can contricbute to the IG
... including page reformating for old web pages

<chunming> +1 to transcode on the old pages to adapt displaying pages on mobile devices

HongLiu: mobile ads should be taken into consideration too

Jeanne: the mobile accessibility TF working on creating new techniques for mobile accessibility

RayD: any certificaiton program?
... groups come up with guidelines, certificaiton?
... companies with products can use that

Muhammed: maybe mobileOk checker for webpages
... is it the overall rule of W3C to certify that?
... maybe this should be dicussed with the ac

HongLiu: do we have the workshop on web&mobile?

<jeanne> Mobile Accessibility Task Force -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/

RadD: there was one a few years ago

Kawada: there was one in GSMA, Natasha organized that one, called workshop for telecommunicaiton for @@

Muhammed: this IG is not come from a workshop. years ago, the core mobile CG started to talk about mobile and the web. the core component for HTML5 to be used on the mobile devices
... and this IG comes from that CG

RayD: there was a workshop in 2006

Wendy: we have been approached to do a workshop on mobile web privacy
... I would be interested to know if any one this room is interested in that workshop?

<kawada> GSMA W3C Workshop on Prioritising Web Developments for the Telecommunications' Industry , was held last March in London GSMA.

<jeanne> Jeanne: The W3C courses recently offered a course in Responsive Design -> http://www.w3devcampus.com/responsive-web-design-w3c/

Muhammed: how do we decide if we should organize a workshop?

Wendy: it needs W3M discussion
... to see if it worths the efforts
... if so, we set up the PC
... can call for participaiton

HongLiu: I think mobile privacy is important
... mobile operators are realizing that privacy is a important topic for them
... so we will take a closer look of what W3C has done on that
... can we send this requirements/proposal to AC?

RayD: just send the proposal in the minutes to the team

Angel: HongLiu, maybe China Mobile can sponsor a workshop on mobile experience improvement :-)

Wendy: from W3C, we need to find some team members to help with the organizaiton

RayD: I have the page of the last workshop for mobile

<rayd> http://www.w3.org/2003/08/Workshops/archive past workshops

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Possibly Present: Angel Arnaud Chunming ChunmingHu Dans_ Dong-Young DongYoung HongLiu Jeanne Jeff Kawada Mohammed Muhammed RadD RayD Ruinan SHinitrou Scirbe Tomohiro Wendy mdadas terada wseltzer wuwei wwu
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Got date from IRC log name: 10 Jun 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report