IRC log of ac163 on 2014-06-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-irc
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-irc
- 19:15:38 [Angel]
- zakim, this is AC breakout
- 19:15:38 [Zakim]
- sorry, Angel, I do not see a conference named 'AC breakout' in progress or scheduled at this time
- 19:15:40 [rayd]
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- 19:16:02 [Tomohiro]
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- Meeting: AC break out - Build Mobile Experience
- 19:16:29 [Angel]
- Chair: Hong Liu from China Mobile
- 19:16:33 [Angel]
- Scirbe: Angel
- 19:16:44 [Angel]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:16:44 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
- 19:16:54 [Angel]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 19:17:12 [Angel]
- Liu Hong: W3C has been successful in web standards today
- 19:17:33 [Angel]
- ...and it needs more work on user experience on mobile
- 19:18:01 [Angel]
- ...in this break our session, I would like to dicusss with you how we could imvprove that
- 19:18:35 [Angel]
- ...we can start with the difference between mobile devices and the fixed devices
- 19:19:03 [jeanne]
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- 19:19:13 [Angel]
- ...let's find the list of possible reqirements for improvement
- 19:19:38 [Angel]
- ...1st, the difference between mobile devices and desktop computers
- 19:20:13 [Angel]
- ...my point views, the first screen of mobile devices is smaller than the desktop computers
- 19:20:46 [Angel]
- J: the accessibility experience is different on a mobile device than on the desktop computer
- 19:21:15 [Angel]
- @: /join &w3c
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- 19:21:35 [Angel]
- Tomohiro: @@
- 19:21:57 [Angel]
- s/J/Jeanne
- 19:22:42 [Angel]
- RayD: some webpages adapts to the contects in the way you can not read it
- 19:23:19 [Angel]
- HongLiu: mobile devices are closer to our human bodies, we carry them all day long
- 19:24:08 [Angel]
- Arnaud: some certain percentage people carried them phones with them 24 hours
- 19:24:34 [Angel]
- Chunming Hu: when I use apps on the phone, I think more about the traffic it uses
- 19:25:10 [Angel]
- s/traffic it uses/ traffic costs
- 19:25:16 [Arnaud]
- s/some certain percentage people/the vast majority of people (80-90%)/
- 19:25:37 [Angel]
- Ruinan: tablets and smart watches should be taken into consideration too
- 19:25:59 [Angel]
- Jeanne: the offline usage too
- 19:26:36 [Angel]
- Arnaud: when you dont have network connection, the user experience can be very bad
- 19:26:41 [chunming]
- [offline usage experience is equally important]
- 19:28:08 [chunming]
- [if we have several mobile devices, say, phone, pad, and watch, we may need a kind of interconnection, and smooth transfer of content between difference screen/devices.
- 19:28:15 [Angel]
- RayD: when you lose the network connection, you can not access the web page you downloaded before, that's bad
- 19:28:48 [Angel]
- HongLiu: I'm new to W3C, I relay on you to brief me the current work done by W3C to improve these
- 19:28:50 [wuwei]
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- 19:29:09 [Angel]
- RayD: some webpages are designed to adapt for mobile devices
- 19:29:54 [Angel]
- Jeanne: the responsive design is one option for that
- 19:30:38 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/mobilweb
- 19:32:10 [Angel]
- Mohammed:it is from the mobile web initiative, some guidelines there; this is a bit confusing since different groups focusing the same things
- 19:33:06 [Angel]
- ChunmingHu: what about the 2nd screen WG?
- 19:33:13 [kawada]
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- 19:33:22 [Angel]
- Mohammed: not usre if it is for the mobile devices
- 19:33:46 [kawada]
- http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work
- 19:34:30 [Angel]
- HongLiu: when we try to reivew the video streaming, we find it difficult to transcode
- 19:34:50 [chunming]
- s/review/view
- 19:35:08 [jeanne]
- Quarterly Report on all the W3C work pertaining to mobile <- http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
- 19:35:12 [Angel]
- Mohammed: if you want to stream your content to the mobile deivces, it is not the devices but the resources that works
- 19:36:05 [Angel]
- s/works/matters
- 19:36:30 [Angel]
- Jeanne: there is a quaterly report on the progress of W3C's work on mobile
- 19:37:07 [chunming]
- also a chinese version news: http://www.chinaw3c.org/archives/502/
- 19:37:10 [terada]
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- 19:37:10 [Angel]
- ... suggest you to read it
- 19:38:11 [chunming]
- media source extension
- 19:38:41 [Angel]
- DongYoung: about the adapting streaming, so media resources extention can help
- 19:39:05 [Angel]
- HongLiu: so we get back to the obstacles of daily use of mobile devices，why you prefer native apps than web apps
- 19:39:14 [Angel]
- Ruinan: sometimes web apps can be slow
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- 19:39:53 [Angel]
- ChunmingHu: offline experience is not good, as mentioned
- 19:40:10 [Dong-Young_]
- s/so media resources/media source extensions (MSE)/
- 19:40:34 [Angel]
- SHinitrou: web app has limited features
- 19:41:10 [Angel]
- ...native apps have features that web apps dont have. I dont know which features the web has
- 19:41:55 [Angel]
- Mohammed: in the mobile group, W3C is trying to indentify the difference between the web app and native app
- 19:42:16 [Angel]
- HongLiu: we do thing the combination of web app and native app can be the best solution for today
- 19:42:25 [Angel]
- ...from the user point of view
- 19:42:43 [Angel]
- ...we dont what to adapt to different devices and platforms
- 19:43:31 [Angel]
- Arnaud: I would like to set up a prefernece on my browser to avoid @@
- 19:43:46 [Angel]
- ...that's something should be designed by the browser vendors
- 19:44:01 [Angel]
- Mohammed: should focusing the topcis that can be worked
- 19:44:18 [Angel]
- s/@@/ annoying the Ads
- 19:44:32 [Angel]
- s/@@/annoying ads
- 19:45:17 [Arnaud]
- actually I said to avoid advertisement for native apps
- 19:45:27 [Angel]
- Jeanne: touch experience id different that mouse experience, there is not hover
- 19:45:28 [Arnaud]
- but it can be extended to ads in general
- 19:45:54 [Angel]
- s/id/is
- 19:46:55 [Angel]
- HongLiu: now we work on the requirements for improvement
- 19:47:18 [Angel]
- ...1st.for the adaption of the web page
- 19:48:43 [Angel]
- RayD: W3C should be more proactive to provide options for developers
- 19:49:03 [Angel]
- Dong-Young: there was mobile ok validator for web content that can help
- 19:49:16 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
- 19:49:31 [Angel]
- Jeanne: there are mobile best practices
- 19:49:33 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
- 19:49:48 [Angel]
- RayD: to what extend do we know if the developers are paying attention to it?
- 19:50:06 [jeanne]
- Mobile OK checker -> http://validator.w3.org/mobile/
- 19:50:10 [mdadas]
- related to difference between native and web apps : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Closing_the_gap_with_native
- 19:50:11 [Angel]
- HongLiu: anything the browsers can do to make the web pages dispalyed in a better way
- 19:51:05 [kawada]
- mobile ok is a little bit old -- not for smart phones.
- 19:51:34 [Angel]
- ... a few years ago, the web pages were not displyed well on mobile devices, some browsers did something to improve the display on the mobile devices, e.g.UCweb
- 19:51:55 [Angel]
- Ruinan: they transcode the webpage for mobile devices
- 19:52:17 [Angel]
- HongLiu: do we need to standardize them?
- 19:52:42 [Angel]
- RayD: should the burden be on HTML or on the browser?
- 19:53:59 [Angel]
- Chunming: one of the approach is to ask the page developer to have the responsive design to think of the mobile device, another approach is to find some simple rules, e.g. JS libarary, and embed them to the page
- 19:54:23 [Angel]
- ...some of the browsers are doing the similar job so find the rules do to the transcode
- 19:54:32 [Angel]
- ...there is not a standard on this
- 19:55:24 [Angel]
- HongLiu: for most app break when connection lose, do we have any solution or efforts on that from W3C?
- 19:55:39 [Angel]
- rrsagent,draft minutes
- 19:55:39 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
- 19:56:30 [Angel]
- @@@: service worker might be an option in terms of @@@
- 19:57:26 [Ruinan]
- s/@@@/kawada
- 19:57:33 [Angel]
- HongLiu: do we have any documents define the best practices?
- 19:57:47 [Angel]
- ...if we do, we can have the info available for the develpers
- 19:57:52 [Angel]
- Jeanne: yes, we do
- 19:58:04 [chunming]
- the mobile web best practice
- 19:58:34 [Angel]
- RayD: does it address the behavior of the browser or the authors?
- 19:58:42 [Angel]
- Jeanne: for the authors
- 19:59:17 [kawada]
- The item 2 is I think being discussed as "Offline" in web & mobile IG. https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline
- 19:59:34 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/uaag.php
- 19:59:46 [chunming]
- i found a group note on offline web applications, http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/
- 19:59:59 [chunming]
- but i am not sure if what happened after that.
- 20:00:00 [Angel]
- HongLiu: the best practices can also be shared with web app developers
- 20:00:28 [jeanne]
- User AGent Accessibility Guidelines addresses accessibility of browsers
- 20:00:28 [Angel]
- ...some of the web apps do not work well when netword connection loses
- 20:02:14 [Angel]
- HongLiu: we have different proforamces for wep apps and, since the OS is not open to the developers.
- 20:02:19 [wuwei]
- is there a repository about online-webapps?
- 20:02:33 [Angel]
- Jeff: we have some web and mobile activity in W3C
- 20:02:38 [chunming]
- i know there's some W3C work on Web Cache, in which, the programmer will define which part of the web application could be cached, and which part should not. this should be the approach W3C has done to improve the offline experiences.
- 20:02:39 [Angel]
- ...web & Mobile IG
- 20:03:11 [Angel]
- Jeff: it would be sensible to bring these to the IG
- 20:03:21 [Angel]
- ...to see if they have addressed that
- 20:03:28 [Angel]
- ...if not, maybe a CG to solve it?
- 20:04:34 [Angel]
- Kawada: Natasha from GSMA wants people to work on TF on @@
- 20:05:10 [Angel]
- Muhammed: good idea to bring these ideas to the related groups
- 20:05:16 [Angel]
- HongLiu: agreed
- 20:05:19 [chunming]
- W3C CR for application cache: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/browsers.html#appcache
- 20:05:29 [Angel]
- ...the reason we meet here is to try to find the work that can help them
- 20:05:39 [Angel]
- ...we do list some new issues here, e.g. mobile ads
- 20:06:19 [Angel]
- ...mobile ads can be a big market. but sometimes they can be annoying to the uers, due to the small screen or other facts
- 20:06:58 [Angel]
- ... Arnaud just proposed to have a preference on the browsers to avoid this king of annoying experience
- 20:07:25 [Angel]
- ... on PCs, we do have hover support, on mobile devices, we do not have that
- 20:07:47 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui
- 20:08:25 [Angel]
- Jeanne: the indie-Ui WG of W3C is working on that
- 20:08:53 [mdadas]
- Web Mobile IG has a github https://github.com/w3c-webmob
- 20:10:41 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-events/
- 20:10:45 [Angel]
- ChunmingHu: indie_UI is trying to extract events and make the physical events linked to the screw events
- 20:11:16 [Angel]
- Jeanne: pointer event might also relate to it
- 20:11:59 [Angel]
- HongLiu: to sum up this session
- 20:12:27 [chunming]
- s/screw/high level semantic
- 20:12:43 [Angel]
- ...we have defined some different requirements for better user experience on the mobile devices,
- 20:12:45 [jeanne]
- Pointer Events -> http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/
- 20:13:07 [Angel]
- ...we do have a review what W3C has done to improve the mobile user experience
- 20:13:24 [Angel]
- ... and found W3C have a IG called web&mobile IG
- 20:13:24 [chunming]
- but I am not sure if IndieUI could solve the problem of "lack of hover support"
- 20:13:49 [Angel]
- Jeanne: dont think it came from the IG but W3C staff
- 20:14:16 [Angel]
- HongLiu: we try to describe the personal usage of mobile devices, e.g. the use of web app and web TV
- 20:14:39 [Angel]
- ...5 or 6 problems have been indentified by the iG
- 20:14:50 [Angel]
- ...need to take a closer look of the work of this IG
- 20:15:01 [Angel]
- ...there are a few new topics we can contricbute to the IG
- 20:15:37 [Angel]
- ...including page reformating for old web pages
- 20:16:12 [chunming]
- +1 to transcode on the old pages to adapt displaying pages on mobile devices
- 20:18:11 [Angel]
- ...mobile ads should be taken into consideration too
- 20:18:38 [Angel]
- Jeanne: the mobile accessibility TF working on creating new techniques for mobile accessibility
- 20:18:53 [Angel]
- RayD: any certificaiton program?
- 20:19:22 [Angel]
- ... groups come up with guidelines, certificaiton?
- 20:19:35 [Angel]
- ...companies with products can use that
- 20:19:59 [Angel]
- Muhammed: maybe mobile checker for webpages
- 20:20:45 [Angel]
- ...is it the overall rule of W3C to certify that?
- 20:21:16 [Angel]
- ...maybe this should be dicussed with the ac
- 20:21:37 [Angel]
- HongLiu: do we have the workshop on web&mobile?
- 20:21:56 [jeanne]
- Mobile Accessibility Task Force -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/
- 20:22:11 [Angel]
- RadD: there was one a few years ago
- 20:22:12 [Dans_]
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- Kawada: there was one in GSMA, Natasha organized that one, called workshop for telecommunicaiton for @@
- 20:23:01 [wwu]
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- 20:23:38 [Angel]
- Muhammed: this IG is not come from a workshop. years ago, the core mobile IG started to talk about mobile and the web. the core component for HTML5 to be used on the mobile devices
- 20:23:56 [Angel]
- ...and this IG comes from that CG
- 20:24:20 [Angel]
- s/core mobile IG/ core mobile CG
- 20:24:32 [Angel]
- RayD: there was a workshop in 2006
- 20:24:48 [Angel]
- Wendy: we have been approached to do a workshop on mobile web privacy
- 20:25:06 [Angel]
- ...I would be interested to know if any one this room is interested in that workshop?
- 20:25:36 [kawada]
- GSMA W3C Workshop on Prioritising Web Developments for the Telecommunications' Industry , was held last March in London GSMA.
- 20:26:22 [jeanne]
- Jeanne: The W3C courses recently offered a course in Responsive Design -> http://www.w3devcampus.com/responsive-web-design-w3c/
- 20:27:01 [jeanne]
- s/Jeanne: dont think it came from the IG but W3C staff//
- 20:27:06 [Angel]
- Muhammed: how do we decide if we should organize a workshop?
- 20:27:14 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 20:27:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html jeanne
- 20:27:15 [Angel]
- Wendy: it needs W3M discussion
- 20:27:26 [Angel]
- ...to see if it worths the efforts
- 20:27:35 [Angel]
- ... if so, we set up the PC
- 20:27:41 [Angel]
- ...can call for participaiton
- 20:28:24 [Angel]
- HongLiu: I think mobile privacy is important
- 20:28:55 [Angel]
- ...mobile operators are realizing that privacy is a important topic for them
- 20:29:12 [Angel]
- ...so we will take a closer look of what W3C has done on that
- 20:29:36 [wseltzer]
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- 20:30:10 [Angel]
- HongLiu: can we send this requirements/proposal to AC?
- 20:30:21 [Dans_]
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- 20:30:24 [Angel]
- RayD: just send the proposal in the minutes to the team
- 20:31:27 [Angel]
- Angel: HongLiu, maybe CHina Mobile can sponsor a workshop on mobile experience :-)
- 20:31:53 [Angel]
- Wendy: from W3C, we need to find some team members to help with the organizaiton
- 20:32:13 [Angel]
- RayD: I have the page of the last workshop for mobile
- 20:33:43 [rayd]
- http://www.w3.org/2003/08/Workshops/archive past workshops
- 20:34:13 [Angel]
- rrsagent, draft the minutes
- 20:34:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
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