IRC log of ac163 on 2014-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-irc
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-irc
19:15:38 [Angel]
zakim, this is AC breakout
19:15:38 [Zakim]
sorry, Angel, I do not see a conference named 'AC breakout' in progress or scheduled at this time
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19:16:02 [Tomohiro]
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19:16:09 [Angel]
Meeting: AC break out - Build Mobile Experience
19:16:29 [Angel]
Chair: Hong Liu from China Mobile
19:16:33 [Angel]
Scirbe: Angel
19:16:44 [Angel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:16:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
19:16:54 [Angel]
rrsagent, make log public
19:17:12 [Angel]
Liu Hong: W3C has been successful in web standards today
19:17:33 [Angel]
...and it needs more work on user experience on mobile
19:18:01 [Angel]
...in this break our session, I would like to dicusss with you how we could imvprove that
19:18:35 [Angel]
...we can start with the difference between mobile devices and the fixed devices
19:19:03 [jeanne]
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19:19:13 [Angel]
...let's find the list of possible reqirements for improvement
19:19:38 [Angel]
...1st, the difference between mobile devices and desktop computers
19:20:13 [Angel]
...my point views, the first screen of mobile devices is smaller than the desktop computers
19:20:46 [Angel]
J: the accessibility experience is different on a mobile device than on the desktop computer
19:21:15 [Angel]
@: /join &w3c
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19:21:35 [Angel]
Tomohiro: @@
19:21:57 [Angel]
s/J/Jeanne
19:22:42 [Angel]
RayD: some webpages adapts to the contects in the way you can not read it
19:23:19 [Angel]
HongLiu: mobile devices are closer to our human bodies, we carry them all day long
19:24:08 [Angel]
Arnaud: some certain percentage people carried them phones with them 24 hours
19:24:34 [Angel]
Chunming Hu: when I use apps on the phone, I think more about the traffic it uses
19:25:10 [Angel]
s/traffic it uses/ traffic costs
19:25:16 [Arnaud]
s/some certain percentage people/the vast majority of people (80-90%)/
19:25:37 [Angel]
Ruinan: tablets and smart watches should be taken into consideration too
19:25:59 [Angel]
Jeanne: the offline usage too
19:26:36 [Angel]
Arnaud: when you dont have network connection, the user experience can be very bad
19:26:41 [chunming]
[offline usage experience is equally important]
19:28:08 [chunming]
[if we have several mobile devices, say, phone, pad, and watch, we may need a kind of interconnection, and smooth transfer of content between difference screen/devices.
19:28:15 [Angel]
RayD: when you lose the network connection, you can not access the web page you downloaded before, that's bad
19:28:48 [Angel]
HongLiu: I'm new to W3C, I relay on you to brief me the current work done by W3C to improve these
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19:29:09 [Angel]
RayD: some webpages are designed to adapt for mobile devices
19:29:54 [Angel]
Jeanne: the responsive design is one option for that
19:30:38 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/mobilweb
19:32:10 [Angel]
Mohammed:it is from the mobile web initiative, some guidelines there; this is a bit confusing since different groups focusing the same things
19:33:06 [Angel]
ChunmingHu: what about the 2nd screen WG?
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19:33:22 [Angel]
Mohammed: not usre if it is for the mobile devices
19:33:46 [kawada]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/Mobile/Work
19:34:30 [Angel]
HongLiu: when we try to reivew the video streaming, we find it difficult to transcode
19:34:50 [chunming]
s/review/view
19:35:08 [jeanne]
Quarterly Report on all the W3C work pertaining to mobile <- http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
19:35:12 [Angel]
Mohammed: if you want to stream your content to the mobile deivces, it is not the devices but the resources that works
19:36:05 [Angel]
s/works/matters
19:36:30 [Angel]
Jeanne: there is a quaterly report on the progress of W3C's work on mobile
19:37:07 [chunming]
also a chinese version news: http://www.chinaw3c.org/archives/502/
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19:37:10 [Angel]
... suggest you to read it
19:38:11 [chunming]
media source extension
19:38:41 [Angel]
DongYoung: about the adapting streaming, so media resources extention can help
19:39:05 [Angel]
HongLiu: so we get back to the obstacles of daily use of mobile devices´╝îwhy you prefer native apps than web apps
19:39:14 [Angel]
Ruinan: sometimes web apps can be slow
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19:39:53 [Angel]
ChunmingHu: offline experience is not good, as mentioned
19:40:10 [Dong-Young_]
s/so media resources/media source extensions (MSE)/
19:40:34 [Angel]
SHinitrou: web app has limited features
19:41:10 [Angel]
...native apps have features that web apps dont have. I dont know which features the web has
19:41:55 [Angel]
Mohammed: in the mobile group, W3C is trying to indentify the difference between the web app and native app
19:42:16 [Angel]
HongLiu: we do thing the combination of web app and native app can be the best solution for today
19:42:25 [Angel]
...from the user point of view
19:42:43 [Angel]
...we dont what to adapt to different devices and platforms
19:43:31 [Angel]
Arnaud: I would like to set up a prefernece on my browser to avoid @@
19:43:46 [Angel]
...that's something should be designed by the browser vendors
19:44:01 [Angel]
Mohammed: should focusing the topcis that can be worked
19:44:18 [Angel]
s/@@/ annoying the Ads
19:44:32 [Angel]
s/@@/annoying ads
19:45:17 [Arnaud]
actually I said to avoid advertisement for native apps
19:45:27 [Angel]
Jeanne: touch experience id different that mouse experience, there is not hover
19:45:28 [Arnaud]
but it can be extended to ads in general
19:45:54 [Angel]
s/id/is
19:46:55 [Angel]
HongLiu: now we work on the requirements for improvement
19:47:18 [Angel]
...1st.for the adaption of the web page
19:48:43 [Angel]
RayD: W3C should be more proactive to provide options for developers
19:49:03 [Angel]
Dong-Young: there was mobile ok validator for web content that can help
19:49:16 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
19:49:31 [Angel]
Jeanne: there are mobile best practices
19:49:33 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/Mobile/mobile-web-app-state/
19:49:48 [Angel]
RayD: to what extend do we know if the developers are paying attention to it?
19:50:06 [jeanne]
Mobile OK checker -> http://validator.w3.org/mobile/
19:50:10 [mdadas]
related to difference between native and web apps : http://www.w3.org/wiki/Closing_the_gap_with_native
19:50:11 [Angel]
HongLiu: anything the browsers can do to make the web pages dispalyed in a better way
19:51:05 [kawada]
mobile ok is a little bit old -- not for smart phones.
19:51:34 [Angel]
... a few years ago, the web pages were not displyed well on mobile devices, some browsers did something to improve the display on the mobile devices, e.g.UCweb
19:51:55 [Angel]
Ruinan: they transcode the webpage for mobile devices
19:52:17 [Angel]
HongLiu: do we need to standardize them?
19:52:42 [Angel]
RayD: should the burden be on HTML or on the browser?
19:53:59 [Angel]
Chunming: one of the approach is to ask the page developer to have the responsive design to think of the mobile device, another approach is to find some simple rules, e.g. JS libarary, and embed them to the page
19:54:23 [Angel]
...some of the browsers are doing the similar job so find the rules do to the transcode
19:54:32 [Angel]
...there is not a standard on this
19:55:24 [Angel]
HongLiu: for most app break when connection lose, do we have any solution or efforts on that from W3C?
19:55:39 [Angel]
rrsagent,draft minutes
19:55:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
19:56:30 [Angel]
@@@: service worker might be an option in terms of @@@
19:57:26 [Ruinan]
s/@@@/kawada
19:57:33 [Angel]
HongLiu: do we have any documents define the best practices?
19:57:47 [Angel]
...if we do, we can have the info available for the develpers
19:57:52 [Angel]
Jeanne: yes, we do
19:58:04 [chunming]
the mobile web best practice
19:58:34 [Angel]
RayD: does it address the behavior of the browser or the authors?
19:58:42 [Angel]
Jeanne: for the authors
19:59:17 [kawada]
The item 2 is I think being discussed as "Offline" in web & mobile IG. https://github.com/w3c-webmob/offline
19:59:34 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/uaag.php
19:59:46 [chunming]
i found a group note on offline web applications, http://dev.w3.org/html5/offline-webapps/
19:59:59 [chunming]
but i am not sure if what happened after that.
20:00:00 [Angel]
HongLiu: the best practices can also be shared with web app developers
20:00:28 [jeanne]
User AGent Accessibility Guidelines addresses accessibility of browsers
20:00:28 [Angel]
...some of the web apps do not work well when netword connection loses
20:02:14 [Angel]
HongLiu: we have different proforamces for wep apps and, since the OS is not open to the developers.
20:02:19 [wuwei]
is there a repository about online-webapps?
20:02:33 [Angel]
Jeff: we have some web and mobile activity in W3C
20:02:38 [chunming]
i know there's some W3C work on Web Cache, in which, the programmer will define which part of the web application could be cached, and which part should not. this should be the approach W3C has done to improve the offline experiences.
20:02:39 [Angel]
...web & Mobile IG
20:03:11 [Angel]
Jeff: it would be sensible to bring these to the IG
20:03:21 [Angel]
...to see if they have addressed that
20:03:28 [Angel]
...if not, maybe a CG to solve it?
20:04:34 [Angel]
Kawada: Natasha from GSMA wants people to work on TF on @@
20:05:10 [Angel]
Muhammed: good idea to bring these ideas to the related groups
20:05:16 [Angel]
HongLiu: agreed
20:05:19 [chunming]
W3C CR for application cache: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/browsers.html#appcache
20:05:29 [Angel]
...the reason we meet here is to try to find the work that can help them
20:05:39 [Angel]
...we do list some new issues here, e.g. mobile ads
20:06:19 [Angel]
...mobile ads can be a big market. but sometimes they can be annoying to the uers, due to the small screen or other facts
20:06:58 [Angel]
... Arnaud just proposed to have a preference on the browsers to avoid this king of annoying experience
20:07:25 [Angel]
... on PCs, we do have hover support, on mobile devices, we do not have that
20:07:47 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui
20:08:25 [Angel]
Jeanne: the indie-Ui WG of W3C is working on that
20:08:53 [mdadas]
Web Mobile IG has a github https://github.com/w3c-webmob
20:10:41 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/TR/indie-ui-events/
20:10:45 [Angel]
ChunmingHu: indie_UI is trying to extract events and make the physical events linked to the screw events
20:11:16 [Angel]
Jeanne: pointer event might also relate to it
20:11:59 [Angel]
HongLiu: to sum up this session
20:12:27 [chunming]
s/screw/high level semantic
20:12:43 [Angel]
...we have defined some different requirements for better user experience on the mobile devices,
20:12:45 [jeanne]
Pointer Events -> http://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/
20:13:07 [Angel]
...we do have a review what W3C has done to improve the mobile user experience
20:13:24 [Angel]
... and found W3C have a IG called web&mobile IG
20:13:24 [chunming]
but I am not sure if IndieUI could solve the problem of "lack of hover support"
20:13:49 [Angel]
Jeanne: dont think it came from the IG but W3C staff
20:14:16 [Angel]
HongLiu: we try to describe the personal usage of mobile devices, e.g. the use of web app and web TV
20:14:39 [Angel]
...5 or 6 problems have been indentified by the iG
20:14:50 [Angel]
...need to take a closer look of the work of this IG
20:15:01 [Angel]
...there are a few new topics we can contricbute to the IG
20:15:37 [Angel]
...including page reformating for old web pages
20:16:12 [chunming]
+1 to transcode on the old pages to adapt displaying pages on mobile devices
20:18:11 [Angel]
...mobile ads should be taken into consideration too
20:18:38 [Angel]
Jeanne: the mobile accessibility TF working on creating new techniques for mobile accessibility
20:18:53 [Angel]
RayD: any certificaiton program?
20:19:22 [Angel]
... groups come up with guidelines, certificaiton?
20:19:35 [Angel]
...companies with products can use that
20:19:59 [Angel]
Muhammed: maybe mobile checker for webpages
20:20:45 [Angel]
...is it the overall rule of W3C to certify that?
20:21:16 [Angel]
...maybe this should be dicussed with the ac
20:21:37 [Angel]
HongLiu: do we have the workshop on web&mobile?
20:21:56 [jeanne]
Mobile Accessibility Task Force -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/
20:22:11 [Angel]
RadD: there was one a few years ago
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Kawada: there was one in GSMA, Natasha organized that one, called workshop for telecommunicaiton for @@
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20:23:38 [Angel]
Muhammed: this IG is not come from a workshop. years ago, the core mobile IG started to talk about mobile and the web. the core component for HTML5 to be used on the mobile devices
20:23:56 [Angel]
...and this IG comes from that CG
20:24:20 [Angel]
s/core mobile IG/ core mobile CG
20:24:32 [Angel]
RayD: there was a workshop in 2006
20:24:48 [Angel]
Wendy: we have been approached to do a workshop on mobile web privacy
20:25:06 [Angel]
...I would be interested to know if any one this room is interested in that workshop?
20:25:36 [kawada]
GSMA W3C Workshop on Prioritising Web Developments for the Telecommunications' Industry , was held last March in London GSMA.
20:26:22 [jeanne]
Jeanne: The W3C courses recently offered a course in Responsive Design -> http://www.w3devcampus.com/responsive-web-design-w3c/
20:27:01 [jeanne]
s/Jeanne: dont think it came from the IG but W3C staff//
20:27:06 [Angel]
Muhammed: how do we decide if we should organize a workshop?
20:27:14 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:27:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html jeanne
20:27:15 [Angel]
Wendy: it needs W3M discussion
20:27:26 [Angel]
...to see if it worths the efforts
20:27:35 [Angel]
... if so, we set up the PC
20:27:41 [Angel]
...can call for participaiton
20:28:24 [Angel]
HongLiu: I think mobile privacy is important
20:28:55 [Angel]
...mobile operators are realizing that privacy is a important topic for them
20:29:12 [Angel]
...so we will take a closer look of what W3C has done on that
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20:30:10 [Angel]
HongLiu: can we send this requirements/proposal to AC?
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20:30:24 [Angel]
RayD: just send the proposal in the minutes to the team
20:31:27 [Angel]
Angel: HongLiu, maybe CHina Mobile can sponsor a workshop on mobile experience :-)
20:31:53 [Angel]
Wendy: from W3C, we need to find some team members to help with the organizaiton
20:32:13 [Angel]
RayD: I have the page of the last workshop for mobile
20:33:43 [rayd]
http://www.w3.org/2003/08/Workshops/archive past workshops
20:34:13 [Angel]
rrsagent, draft the minutes
20:34:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/10-ac163-minutes.html Angel
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