In review of the Tables Tutorials the group was generally pleased with how the icons have evolved. Suggestions were made for possilbe alternatives to positioning, link status, number of icons for each example, bulleted text and more. On the question of linked icons, it was agreed that there should be no linking to internal page content, but rather to the general background and overview of each table type. Eric quickly mocked up examples for all to see and it was agreed to make clickables icons, floated left, with only one example of each type, and no bullets.
Consideration was given to the question of the opening language being "too scary" for those who are not coders. Several said that, well, in fact it IS for coders and don't want to try to make the language so simple it is no longer useful to primary audience. All agreed that language could be clarified and somewhat simplified without being dumbed down. Goal is to be useful to primary users while being less intimidating to users of CMS who may not be coders. Discussion of series of large chain link images with "Permalink" designation in alt text led to conclusion that first the large images were distracting and second the term permalink may be confusing to many. Eric will work on alternative visual presentation and wording. The Tutorials cover page emphasis was to be copy edited with an emphasis on the goal of these materials to help make the web "more accessible to all users."
The group agreed to recommend to Indie-UI the use of the term "use case" throughout and that they NOT use scenario. Most availability for co-meeting with WCAG-WG was May 30. Shawn reminded everyone to stay alert to comments on the wiki and to complete the questionnaire.
Shawn: Thanks to Wayne, Vicki and AnnaBelle for completing the survey
<shawn> tables concepts page https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
<shawn> issues: images of tables https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/66
<paulschantz> the little table icons look much better than I thought they would!
Shawn: First of all, thanks Eric for adding those thumbnail images to ilustrate the concepts. Previously the narrative was in bulleted form with the illustrations below. Here the illustrations have replaced the bullets and there is an image to demonstrate the concept behind each table type
...so the question now is what do we think of the different ways of illustrating these table types
AnnaBelle: And a third option would be to float images to the right rather than the left.
Shawn: Would the list then become bulleted?
AnnaBelle: I think it is a separate question but yes, I like bulleted list. So if I ruled the universe I would bring back the bullets and float the images to the right.
Paul: I like the idea of floating them to the right. I was sceptical of the thumbnails but I think they look really good.
<Jan> +1 float to the right and agree the the images do look great
Bim: My concern is the fact that at present the image is part of the link. If it floats to the right, it will hide something or breakup the side by side relationship and so it will no longer be able to be one link
Eric: I agree with these comments, but there are some things about increasing the clickable area by wrapping the link around the image that is also useful. We would then have only the linked text and the right-floated image may no longer be as closely associated.
Sharron: Is it OK for the image to be just an illustration and not linked?
Eric: I think visitors will expect it to be linked.
Jan: Yes, especially for cognitive disabilities
Shawn: They don't look clickable to m but if we make it look more so, it could be useful
... let's consider the question of having more than one illustration
... for example Simple Tables - would not have BOTH a column header and row header, so is one with both an irregular table?
... so now a Simple Table is if you have a row header OR a column header
... a question is that especially for the Complex Irregular, do we want more than one illustration here, maybe three to show a range of covered situations?
AnnaBelle: I relate to that part of the page as a place to quickly click through and would not expect the variety of what I will find when I get there. You will expect to look around to find the fit in any case.
... so becasue you would not expect to have an exact map to your complex situation within the iconography, we should not need to put all the possiiblities as icons.
Shawn: So if you have one column header, you won't find it in Simple Tables you will have to find it in Complex Irregular
AnnaBelle: Based on how it looks, it should move to Simple Tables
Sharron: +1
Wayne: +1
Shawn: But each is meant to address how you need to mark it up rather than how it appears
<Vicki> +1
Shawn: so if we adhere to this organization, we can point to the fact that the one column header example will be found later on
Wayne: Why?
<yatil> "Due to how some assistive technology works, it is needed to use the scope attribute if there is only one column of headers." - Link
Bim: NVDA works with FF, but no other and JAWS works with none of them. So all of them need scope attribute when there is just one column of headers
Wayne: So my question is how long to change how we code due to AT deficits rather than WCAG requirement?
Bim: I don't see how the AT could process it differently
Eric: That is right, and helps explain why visual icons do not quite inlcude all options. The top row of any table will be processed by default as the header. It is explained in the example and we can emphasize it more.
... I also wanted to mention that the examples are very good if they are read one after the other but we don't expect people to read it like that.
Shawn: So no one is advocating that we would jump internally to a specific table type. They will still have to read background. Did we agree that we will make the point on the simple table page that if you are looking for an example with only one column of headers, you will find it within the Complex Iregular page?
Eric: OK I am fine with that.
Shawn: Now, what iamges shall we have on the main page to illustate these optins?
... one proposal is to leave one image for each and float them right. Challenge of that is the breaking up of the link.
... another option is to leave them on the left
... third is to have for both simple and irregular, to provide multiple icons
<Bim> +1 to unlinked icons of each example.
AnnaBelle: If we have multiple images, people may expect them to link to the specific table
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/69 -> Recorded Issue: Link to first example from simple tables
Shawn: Except most people did not expect them to be clickable in any case
Sharron: I think if separated out like that people will be more likely to expect them to be clickable
Shawn: At AccessU this year, the people who attended the EasyChecks were newbies and quite wary of pointy brackets. With that in mind, let's think about how the table tutorial starts
... so do we think there will be people coming here who use authoring tools who may need concepts explained but will not be comfortable with code.
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/index2/
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/index3/
<Jan> After seeing all of the samples, my preference is on the left with a clickable image.
Wayne: With 3 icons, it becomes visually confusing, the original one is best
AnnaBelle: My preference is to float to the right but with the constraints of it being clickable, the left would make more sense.
Paul: My preference is a coin toss between left and right, either/both over the beneath
Jan: Preference to the left
<paulschantz> +1 to left and linkable
<yatil> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/tables/index4/
Bim: left
Shawn: Strongly preferred the images beneath. Trying to process the images while reading the text is confusing.
... much clearer beneath
Eric: I like the left aligned the most. It makes sense, make the connection clear, adheres to convention.
Wayne: This is a very well done page that wraps nicely. When images are on the right you might never see it
... When you put an image on a line that is magnified you are creating many Page downs to navigate
<Vicki> I'd go for the left alignment of the image.
Shawn: Separate the illustrations a bit more so it supplements rather than breaking it up. Conceptually you would be able to process
<yatil> http://note.io/1jlMjat
AnnaBelle: I find the way they are currently arranged on the left is distracting and does not make sense. I don't like spacing between images in left float currently
Wayne: This is the first advanced thing on web accessiiblity that enlarges correctly . I would like us not to mess that up.
Shawn: How would it be messed up?
Wayne: The indent
Shawn: So we would have to be sure that whatever we do does not mess that up.
Paul: It is confusing. You have an icon and then you have a bullet and then you have text. It is as though you have double list markers
<Wayne> +1
Jan: I agree, it does not look right to me
<Wayne> drop the disks, keep the indent
<Vicki> millipeed legs
Shawn: Want these published in May. There is a slight chance depending on how WCAG review goes, it may be pushed out. But would like to do everything we can to do that.
<yatil> http://note.io/1jlNAOW
Shawn: Wayne's idea is the original one with hanging indents
<Wayne> the voice
Bim: Without the bullets, it looks much better and maintains the integrity of the left indent.
AnnaBelle: I like it very much too without the bullets, but the text spacing needs to be improved
... More space between the images
Jan: I like this too, it looks good if the spacing is fixed
Shawn: I will accept the compromise. I miss having more than one but this makes it much easier to process
<Wayne> +1
Bim: It strikes people as being a simple image, and may cause them to say hmm, why is that there?
... the one that LOOKS simple as the icon and could lead people to the complex page
Shawn: So one issue is how to address that one table and the other is how to encompass all the possiiblities
Eric: These are only symbols and maybe we will need to make that clear somehow.
Sharron: Are we saying that we will add text to explain that? I don't think that is wise
Eric: No I am not saying to add text explanation
Shawn: The idea of adding the image was to help people tell where to go but not to be comprehensive. More of a guideline/way finding aide. So now I am concerend that if there is only one image, it could lead people down the wrong path.
Wayne: This is why I actually prefer the one image. I find that when you throw out too many ideas, concepts, examples, etc it can overwhlem. You can easily provide just one too many things and people get confused
Shawn: If we do not have multiples, \
Wayne: This could be like the image of the xy axis that will trigger a bunch of related images. So having one is perfect (at least for me)
<paulschantz> I completely agree with Wayne on this
Shawn: But if we don't have a more comprehensive list of representative examples more likely to lead people down a wrong path and we maybe should remove the images altogether?
<Jan> +1 wayne - one is the loneliest number, but it works here.
Wayne: My answer to the removal of images would be no. Having a picture is nice and maybe we want to reinformce it in other ways. Using it for guidance when they return. Not married to it however
AnnaBelle: I love the images, we need to keep them.
Shawn: anyone object? No? OK
Sub-topic: Is the intro too scary? Do we need to think about new users or tools users who won't be coders?
Wayne: I found a place to put in a sort of a warning to new users.
... this is not for newbies. In the last sentence make clear that this is for coders
Shawn: But if I use a CMS and place content, don't you think this can be useful to understand table content?
<yatil> https://github.com/w3c/wai-tutorials/issues/70 -> Issue recorded: Tables Concepts: Add intendation to the list
Wayne: If using a tool, you are likely to need to know about how the tool works underneath but this may not be the place.
AnnaBelle: I would like to reduce the grade level of the text to make the text more freindly and inviting, especially the first paragraph. Needs copyediting
Shawn: We say the tutorials are introductions so we need to think about others than coders
Paul: I do not think it is too complex. It is in fact a complex multidimensional array of data presentation. There is complexity here.
Jan: You are looking at a table tutorial because you are trying to create one in HTML
Eric: I know it is meant for people who create web sites, it is not meant for people who have not been familiar with HTML at all.
<paulschantz> make it as simple as it needs to be, and no simpler
Eric: more likely that they will get more rather than less complex.
<Zakim> Bim, you wanted to ask about icons used in CMS
Eric: we need to tackle the more complex issues. The comment about CMS it may be more useful to them to investigate the capcity of their CMS to support.
<AnnaBelle> For first sentence here's an alternative: "Data tables need special HTML markup that shows the difference between header and data cells and also ties the two together. "
Sharron:Agree that it is a complex issue, but the language can still be clarified and somewhat simplified without being dumbed down. It will be useful to primary users and less intimidating to users of CMS who may not be coders.
<yatil> +1 Sharron
<shawn> +1
Bim: Not much experience with CMS but those I have used generally use icons to create headers. Are we worrying about something that is not a scary thing since they will only need to know how to use the tools
Shawn: So let's leave the issue open so that we understand that we need to provide *some* support for the CMS users even if they are not our primary audience, they must be recognized and provide some guidance where they might find the support they do need.
<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2014AprJun/0032.html
Shawn: Next to the headings is an icon that looks like a chain. Sylvie asks what does it mean "link to this section of the page?"
<shawn> As I expressed previously, I think these images are confusing for people who don't know them and add visual complexity. I agree that permalinks are useful for some people, so it would be good to indicate them in a way that has less potential for confusion.
Shawn: I had said earlier that I think the icons are visually distracting and the alt is not clear to those who may not know it.
Shadi: (by email) How about using the term "permalink" to (1) disambiguate what this image is, and (2) teach people what a permalink is. For example:
- "Permalink - marks the address of this section of the document"
Bim: Very selfish but it gets very wearying to hear the same thing again and again throughout the text. At what point do I stop listening to the explanation and hear the actual heading text?
... it is what I would call page noise.
<Wayne> +1
Paul: Keep the permalinks and though I see where Shadi is coming from to provide some guidance. Is this the kind of convention we would want to use elsewhere on the WAI pages?
Eric: We added the sentence that people would not know what it is - the icon or the term Permalink. There is no easy way to expand that convention.
Paul: In the context of the tutorials, it is useful and people will want to use it.
Shawn: Can people stay 15 more minuutes?
<Wayne> +15
<Sylvie> Can stay 15 minutes longer
<AnnaBelle> Can stay 15 more mins
<Jan> can stay
Eric: I can basically do what Shadi proposes as an aria-described by to hide it from screen readers
Shawn: In table concepts page, we do use a list of technologies used in this tutorial. Can we add Permalink to this list of technologies and informs people who may not have encountered it before. Define it there
AnnaBelle: I *really* like that idea. Or what about a table of contents page with the permalinks listed?
Shawn: Those are a couple of ideas
Wayne: The multi column table of contents is the bain of my life because when reduced to one column it is awful.
Shawn: No it is a list of maybe three
... any other thoughts on how to handle Permalinks?
Wayne: Can we look at the idea you proposed to inlcude in technologies covered in this tutorial?
Eric: Not sure we want to introduce another layer of navigation...remember we already have two
<paulschantz> list of permalinks is an interesting idea, but it adds noise
Shawn: Having visual image at the end of each heading is distracting and I really don't like it. I do however like having the link itself, jsut not the visual icon.
... A section to the right that says: In this section. You would get an overview of what's on the page as well as the permalink
... so on concpets page, there are three. There would be some advantage to having this listed. It's useful for those who may be skimming to find their specific issue as well as providing the overall orientation.
Paul: Adding noise with the ToC but need the permalinks
... to the right addresses your concern, but I like having it so that if I find something I want to share, it is right there.
Wayne: When a screen reader finds it, does it create disruption of the sentence?
Shawn: Yes, it is now, but we have agreed that we will reduce the alt text to simply say "Permalink" Then the question is for those who have not seen it, what is a Permalink?
... so we will probably not solve it today, but where are people at this time?
<paulschantz> would it be terrible if we did both?
<yatil> where it is or on the right hand is my preferred location at the moment. Smaller is fine for me, too.
Sharron: I like the right hand menu idea, maybe reduce the size of the icon?
Eric: On the right hand portion of the page is probably the best thing to do
... can reduce the size, could remove it from the heading.
<Wayne> Suggestion: Have someone go over the minutes, collect the issues and we can each vote to prioritize. Then Eric fixes the high priority items. and just have eric do them
Shawn: Can you summarize the issues and submit for group proposal?
Bim: Reducing to alt="Permalink" would be good but maybe in the intro say "The tutorials use permalinks" with an example of the icon.
<Jan> +1 to Bim's comments on describing the permalink and reducing the alt to "permalink"
<Sylvie> +1 to Bim's comments on describing the permalink and reducing the alt to "permalink"
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/IndieUI_Requirements_Review#.22use_cases.22_versus_.22scenarios.22
<shawn> EOWG suggests calling these "use cases" throughout, and not "scenarios". We can provide rationale if needed.
<Sylvie> abstain
<Wayne> +1
<AnnaBelle> +1
<Jan> +1
<yatil> +1
+1
<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WCAG_review#Techniques_for_Specific_Technologies
Shawn: We have suggested that because we suggest techniques to improve accessiiblity, using those will not make it accessible to all users.
... wanted to check 2 things. Would it be possible to join on the European holiday for Eric and Sylvie and/or would Jun 6 work for others?
<yatil> Not available on the 30th. - completely offline that weekend
<shawn> https://w3c.github.io/wai-tutorials/
<Jan> Are we helping web sites reach people, or designers and developers reach people?
<Jan> Web sites are the tool we use
AnnaBelle: It is mostly copyediting thoughts that I have. "We designed these tutorials to help websites to reach the widest possible audience and make the web a better place at the same time." It is not the websites that are helped but the people who make the web sites
... would say more about "help people create websites..."
Shawn: And I have mixed feeling about making the web better at the same time
Sharron: +1
<Jan> yeah ... the "web a better place" is a bit too kumbaya
Shawn: What about work better for people with disabilities
<yatil> "Welcome to the web accessibility tutorials. We designed these tutorials to help people create websites that reach the widest possible audience."
<Jan> how about more accessible to all users?
<Bim> +1 to Jan's suggestion
<Sylvie> +1 to Jan's suggestion as well.
<AnnaBelle> Eric - possible alternative sentence "We've designed these tutorials to help people create websites that reach the widest possible audience."
Shawn: Thanks everyone for staying extra. We are trying to work on this as much as possible. Please stay in touch, watch the GitHub and the wiki, make comments,
... thanks again and feel free to make suggestions.
<Jan> bye everyone!
Shawn: GitHub, email, wiki. Have a great weekend.