Timed Text Working Group Teleconference -- 09 Jan 2014

<trackbot> Date: 09 January 2014

<scribe> scribeNick: nigel

next few months

http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html

nigel: charter says LC for TTML Live in March, TTML2 and IMSC in April
... Want to make sure we have proper transparency of flow from requirements to solution, as highlighted (amongst other issues) by debate on issue-286 in December
... Does anyone want to point at existing working practices for achieving this?

glenn: Wouldn't conclude that lack of resolution on 286 meant it was an improper way to proceed. Actually quite typical for requirements and solutions to get iterated and refined.
... We've never, other than formal requirements capture process in 2003, done this more formally. That's too much at this stage.
... Agree that there are still some questions about the requirement in that particular case.

nigel: Where does the Change Proposal documentation fit into this?
... i.e. the change proposals on the wiki.

glenn: In most of those cases we had a good idea of the requirements.

nigel: propose to collate requirements and functionality etc into CPs in January, then iterate through solution proposals and editing in Feb and March, for LC in April.
... General bugs and issues can be handled ad hoc within that timeframe.

<plh> this looks good to me btw

nigel: Everyone happy with that?

all: no objections

glenn: not unhappy with that.

nigel: in that case let's aim for an agenda on first Feb meeting where we can go through the CPs and push on to solutions and editing.

IANA registration

nigel: made progress since last meeting

mike: Got additional feedback from the IANA expert. Seemed like nitpicking at first but on further investigation IETF did issue new guidelines last year.
... We had a disconnect and hadn't picked from one of the 4 enumerated encoding values that are now required.
... I agree with the proposed language and suggest we accept it and then we can complete the registration process.

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html

mike: offers to circulate this opinion on the reflector.

<plh> +1 to go on with it

nigel: any objections to proceeding with this or want more review time?

all: silent

nigel: we're good to go with this then.

action-88?

<trackbot> action-88 -- Mike Dolan to Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88

plh: need an errata for TTML1. Propose glenn completes this and plh issues the errata with the new appendix.

glenn: entire appendix in errata?

plh: yes, makes it easier to point to.

tmichel: I can process the updated TTML1 into an errata.

plh: yes, publish as a whole section.

tmichel: is this errata normative?

plh: yes, otherwise we'd have to publish a 3rd edition

action-88: glenn to edit, send to tmichel who will publish errata.

<trackbot> Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175..

action-88: Reassigning to Glenn to make the edits as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html

<trackbot> Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175..

Charter

plh: still waiting for feedback on the document licence from the past objectors to an open licence. Expecting this within a week.
... Within 2-3 weeks we should be in a position to send to the AC, unless we get a strong push-back. In that case I'll talk to David and may propose we simply abandon the licence change.

action-248

<trackbot> action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248

plh: haven't done this.

action-253?

<trackbot> action-253 -- Nigel Megitt to Send plh updated wording for the ebu paragraph -- due 2013-12-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/253

close action-253

<trackbot> Closed action-253.

nigel: there were other proposed organisations to add. I propose not adding more as the other suggestions would not add anything concrete.

mike: adding more organisations for which we don't have a point of contact makes it hard for us to fulfil our requirement to contact all of them.
... We can reach out any time we feel like?
... I am the contact for ATSC.

plh: even if we don't get responses from all then we don't have to chase.

nigel: I propose to close off the addition of further external groups at this stage.
... HbbTV was one specific organisation mentioned - as you've said not having them on the charter doesn't prevent us from contacting them.
... has had private conversation with pal re charter section on IMSC
... i.e. in Scope, 1.6
... Wording currently is "Publish a text and an image profile of the Timed Text Markup Language (TTML) appropriate for worldwide subtitling applications, including dialog language translation, content description, captions for deaf and hard of hearing, etc., using TTML Text and Image Profiles for Internet Media Subtitles and Captions as basis."
... I have a concern that this is too consistent with the scope of TTML2 and the part of the workflow that it relates to.
... It's not suitable globally for archive and exchange, but is well suited to distribution.

mike: hesitant to narrow the scope as many organisations are authoring in IMSC and archiving
... Don't see any benefit in carving out archive for the use of this profile.

nigel: want to be inclusive of the core goals rather than exclusive of other parts of the workflow.

mike: IMSC isn't universal but does have widespread coverage.

nigel, mike, pal, glenn: discussion on charter wording covering intended purpose of IMSC, potential inclusion of more universal requirements, need to be sufficiently open in charter definition to avoid having to potentially recharter, and confusion as to the problem with current wording.

scribe: The fact that this concern is raised so late in the process was noted.

nigel: still has some concern that the charter description is too broad but will not raise to the level of objection for now.

tmichel: Has a small issue against the charter. In the previous one there was a deliverable of a mapping between TTML and HTML5+CSS and we had agreed to include that in TTML2 spec.
... We agreed on this but the charter doesn't mention it. Should we specify this or not?

nigel: it is there in Scope.

tmichel: The second issue is related to this. I agreed with plh that it would be very nice to have this mapping in 2014 to align with the release of HTML5.
... My worry is that if it's in TTML2 spec it won't arise this year.

glenn: It could do, in the form of a working draft or LC even. I think we should be flexible on this right now. I'm working on this mapping as we speak and expect it to come along in the next few months.

tmichel: I agree with you that because the mapping is in the scope but not the deliverables we are flexible in how we release it. It could be a note or part of TTML2.
... I agree we can go for this as it stands.

Raised Issues

issue-299?

<trackbot> issue-299 -- dur must be greater than zero -- raised

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/299

glenn: I noticed that some test files had zero durations in them, which highlighted a potential improvement, to require durations>0.
... This raises a backward compatibility issue that TTML1 documents may have zero durations, though you could say it's implied by the SMIL reference.
... We could add a clarifying note to TTML1 as an errata to make this clearer.
... In TTML2 the language can be made normative.

nigel: Any objections to doing this?

all: no objections.

<glenn> ACTION: glenn to add errata note for ttml1 pointing at constraint in SMIL prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text to ttml2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-254 - Add errata note for ttml1 pointing at constraint in smil prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text to ttml2 [on Glenn Adams - due 2014-01-16].

Pending Review Issues

issue-231?

<trackbot> issue-231 -- Individual character rotation -- pending review

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231

nigel: pal raised this - can the solution be confirmed?

pal: has not reviewed it because I didn't know it was there to be reviewed!

<scribe> ACTION: pal to review issue-231 solution [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-255 - Review issue-231 solution [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-01-16].

<glenn> https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my

issue-259?

<trackbot> issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259

issue-259: Glenn: it doesn't always make sense to round up, sometimes round down works better, e.g. zIndex

<trackbot> Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".

issue-259: pal: I will include some specific text proposals.

<trackbot> Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".

pal: IMSC and CFF-TT uses round half up for integer pixel positions in some text, so there's precedence for this.

<scribe> ACTION: pal to review wording on issue-259 proposed solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with existing profile documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Review wording on issue-259 proposed solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with existing profile documents [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-01-16].

Actions pending review

action-141?

<trackbot> action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. -- due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141

issue-162?

<trackbot> issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162

glenn: I had interpreted the title to mean something else because there's already another action to fix this.

actino-225?

action-225?

<trackbot> action-225 -- Glenn Adams to Work with plh to update standalone profile docs for ttml1se -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/225

glenn: Action-141 can be closed when Action-225 is closed.
... or closed now as a duplicate of 225
... I was going to update the standalone doc in place but I should check that there's no backward compatibility issue.

nigel: What's the impact on anyone who occasionally makes use of the current standalone doc?

glenn: their software might break. However the specification is normative not the standalone document. We wouldn't be doing something new to update the standalone document with an occasional impact.
... We can put a comment into the new document to advise those looking at it that it has changed.

action-238?

<trackbot> action-238 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Follow up on issue-295 -- due 2013-12-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/238

pal: would be good to have glenn's input on this one.

action-243?

<trackbot> action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243

<plh> http://cldr.unicode.org/

mike: Proposal in this issue is simply to reference CLDR, and that's insufficient to express the empirical examination of subtitles created worldwide.

pal: The intention is to create the union of CLDR and other characters.

nigel: we discussed this at TPAC with W3C i18n expert and came up with the course of action that has resulted in the current edited draft.

pal: I'm not surprised that CLDR doesn't include all characters useful in subtitling and captioning.
... What this group could consider doing is adding further locale information in the form of characters used for subtitling and captioning.
... (to CLDR)

mike: Maybe we could do this through W3C i18n. We have some information that Unicode has not understood so it would be good to communicate that.

pal: proposes that this be done after working draft.

mike: volunteers to do this.

aob

mike: action-250 closed

close action-250

<trackbot> Closed action-250.

<tmichel> bye all

trackbot, status

- DRAFT -

Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

09 Jan 2014

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