IRC log of tt on 2014-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:16 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:57:16 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-irc
14:57:18 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:20 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TTML
14:57:20 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:21 [trackbot]: Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:57:21 [trackbot]: Date: 09 January 2014
14:58:26 [frans-EBU]: frans-EBU has joined #tt
14:58:35 [tmichel]: tmichel has joined #tt
14:59:05 [glenn]: zakim, who's on the phone?
14:59:05 [Zakim]: I notice SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has restarted
14:59:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see nigel, glenn
14:59:52 [Zakim]: + +41.22.749.aaaa
15:00:02 [pal]: pal has joined #tt
15:00:18 [Zakim]: +??P10
15:00:18 [mike]: mike has joined #tt
15:00:23 [tmichel]: zakim, ??P10 is me
15:00:23 [Zakim]: +tmichel; got it
15:00:29 [glenn]: zakim, aaaa is frans-EBU
15:00:29 [Zakim]: +frans-EBU; got it
15:00:59 [Zakim]: +Mike
15:02:58 [Zakim]: +pal
15:05:32 [nigel]: chair: nigel
15:05:37 [nigel]: scribeNick: nigel
15:06:51 [plh]: plh has joined #tt
15:07:10 [Zakim]: +Plh
15:07:17 [plh]: zakim, drop plh
15:07:17 [Zakim]: Plh is being disconnected
15:07:18 [Zakim]: -Plh
15:07:21 [Zakim]: +Plh
15:08:17 [nigel]: Topic: next few months
15:08:18 [nigel]: http://www.w3.org/2013/10/timed-text-charter.html
15:08:30 [jdsmith]: jdsmith has joined #tt
15:08:38 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
15:10:27 [nigel]: nigel: charter says LC for TTML Live in March, TTML2 and IMSC in April
15:10:55 [nigel]: nigel: Want to make sure we have proper transparency of flow from requirements to solution, as highlighted (amongst other issues) by debate on issue-286 in December
15:11:52 [nigel]: nigel: Does anyone want to point at existing working practices for achieving this?
15:12:32 [nigel]: glenn: Wouldn't conclude that lack of resolution on 286 meant it was an improper way to proceed. Actually quite typical for requirements and solutions to get iterated and refined.
15:13:11 [nigel]: glenn: We've never, other than formal requirements capture process in 2003, done this more formally. That's too much at this stage.
15:13:28 [nigel]: glenn: Agree that there are still some questions about the requirement in that particular case.
15:13:46 [nigel]: nigel: Where does the Change Proposal documentation fit into this?
15:14:00 [nigel]: ... i.e. the change proposals on the wiki.
15:14:23 [nigel]: glenn: In most of those cases we had a good idea of the requirements.
15:16:52 [nigel]: nigel: propose to collate requirements and functionality etc into CPs in January, then iterate through solution proposals and editing in Feb and March, for LC in April.
15:17:03 [nigel]: ... General bugs and issues can be handled ad hoc within that timeframe.
15:17:15 [plh]: this looks good to me btw
15:17:15 [nigel]: ... Everyone happy with that?
15:17:27 [nigel]: all: no objections
15:17:32 [nigel]: glenn: not unhappy with that.
15:18:30 [nigel]: nigel: in that case let's aim for an agenda on first Feb meeting where we can go through the CPs and push on to solutions and editing.
15:19:05 [nigel]: topic: IANA registration
15:19:13 [nigel]: nigel: made progress since last meeting
15:19:55 [nigel]: mike: Got additional feedback from the IANA expert. Seemed like nitpicking at first but on further investigation IETF did issue new guidelines last year.
15:20:15 [nigel]: ... We had a disconnect and hadn't picked from one of the 4 enumerated encoding values that are now required.
15:20:38 [nigel]: ... I agree with the proposed language and suggest we accept it and then we can complete the registration process.
15:20:50 [nigel]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html
15:21:15 [nigel]: mike: offers to circulate this opinion on the reflector.
15:21:47 [plh]: +1 to go on with it
15:21:59 [nigel]: nigel: any objections to proceeding with this or want more review time?
15:22:03 [nigel]: all: silent
15:22:08 [nigel]: nigel: we're good to go with this then.
15:22:25 [plh]: q+
15:22:39 [nigel]: action-88?
15:22:39 [trackbot]: action-88 -- Mike Dolan to Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175. -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN
15:22:39 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/88
15:23:13 [nigel]: plh: need an errata for TTML1. Propose glenn completes this and plh issues the errata with the new appendix.
15:23:26 [nigel]: glenn: entire appendix in errata?
15:23:36 [nigel]: plh: yes, makes it easier to point to.
15:24:40 [nigel]: tmichel: I can process the updated TTML1 into an errata.
15:24:51 [nigel]: plh: yes, publish as a whole section.
15:25:01 [nigel]: tmichel: is this errata normative?
15:25:14 [nigel]: plh: yes, otherwise we'd have to publish a 3rd edition
15:25:37 [nigel]: action-88: glenn to edit, send to tmichel who will publish errata.
15:25:37 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175..
15:26:28 [nigel]: action-88: Reassigning to Glenn to make the edits as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2014Jan/0000.html
15:26:28 [trackbot]: Notes added to action-88 Make sure the TTML media type is properly registered for Issue-175..
15:27:29 [nigel]: topic: Charter
15:27:55 [nigel]: plh: still waiting for feedback on the document licence from the past objectors to an open licence. Expecting this within a week.
15:28:27 [nigel]: ... Within 2-3 weeks we should be in a position to send to the AC, unless we get a strong push-back. In that case I'll talk to David and may propose we simply abandon the licence change.
15:29:27 [nigel]: action-248
15:29:27 [trackbot]: action-248 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to Add atsc to the ttml charter -- due 2013-12-12 -- OPEN
15:29:28 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/248
15:29:50 [nigel]: plh: haven't done this.
15:29:54 [nigel]: action-253?
15:29:54 [trackbot]: action-253 -- Nigel Megitt to Send plh updated wording for the ebu paragraph -- due 2013-12-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:29:54 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/253
15:30:19 [nigel]: close action-253
15:30:20 [trackbot]: Closed action-253.
15:31:25 [nigel]: nigel: there were other proposed organisations to add. I propose not adding more as the other suggestions would not add anything concrete.
15:32:13 [Zakim]: -frans-EBU
15:32:20 [nigel]: mike: adding more organisations for which we don't have a point of contact makes it hard for us to fulfil our requirement to contact all of them.
15:32:34 [nigel]: ... We can reach out any time we feel like?
15:33:26 [nigel]: mike: I am the contact for ATSC.
15:33:43 [nigel]: plh: even if we don't get responses from all then we don't have to chase.
15:34:09 [nigel]: nigel: I propose to close off the addition of further external groups at this stage.
15:34:50 [nigel]: nigel: HbbTV was one specific organisation mentioned - as you've said not having them on the charter doesn't prevent us from contacting them.
15:35:30 [nigel]: nigel: has had private conversation with pal re charter section on IMSC
15:35:55 [nigel]: ... i.e. in Scope, 1.6
15:36:19 [nigel]: ... Wording currently is "Publish a text and an image profile of the Timed Text Markup Language (TTML) appropriate for worldwide subtitling applications, including dialog language translation, content description, captions for deaf and hard of hearing, etc., using TTML Text and Image Profiles for Internet Media Subtitles and Captions as basis."
15:38:20 [nigel]: nigel: I have a concern that this is too consistent with the scope of TTML2 and the part of the workflow that it relates to.
15:39:49 [nigel]: nigel: It's not suitable globally for archive and exchange, but is well suited to distribution.
15:40:30 [nigel]: mike: hesitant to narrow the scope as many organisations are authoring in IMSC and archiving
15:40:44 [nigel]: ... Don't see any benefit in carving out archive for the use of this profile.
15:42:13 [nigel]: nigel: want to be inclusive of the core goals rather than exclusive of other parts of the workflow.
15:45:11 [nigel]: mike: IMSC isn't universal but does have widespread coverage.
16:05:50 [nigel]: nigel, mike, pal, glenn: discussion on charter wording covering intended purpose of IMSC, potential inclusion of more universal requirements, need to be sufficiently open in charter definition to avoid having to potentially recharter, and confusion as to the problem with current wording.
16:06:06 [nigel]: ... The fact that this concern is raised so late in the process was noted.
16:06:28 [nigel]: nigel: still has some concern that the charter description is too broad but will not raise to the level of objection for now.
16:07:20 [nigel]: tmichel: Has a small issue against the charter. In the previous one there was a deliverable of a mapping between TTML and HTML5+CSS and we had agreed to include that in TTML2 spec.
16:07:54 [nigel]: ... We agreed on this but the charter doesn't mention it. Should we specify this or not?
16:08:36 [nigel]: nigel: it is there in Scope.
16:09:05 [nigel]: tmichel: The second issue is related to this. I agreed with plh that it would be very nice to have this mapping in 2014 to align with the release of HTML5.
16:09:16 [nigel]: ... My worry is that if it's in TTML2 spec it won't arise this year.
16:10:04 [nigel]: glenn: It could do, in the form of a working draft or LC even. I think we should be flexible on this right now. I'm working on this mapping as we speak and expect it to come along in the next few months.
16:10:42 [nigel]: tmichel: I agree with you that because the mapping is in the scope but not the deliverables we are flexible in how we release it. It could be a note or part of TTML2.
16:11:01 [nigel]: ... I agree we can go for this as it stands.
16:11:29 [nigel]: topic: Raised Issues
16:11:44 [nigel]: issue-299?
16:11:44 [trackbot]: issue-299 -- dur must be greater than zero -- raised
16:11:44 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/299
16:13:20 [nigel]: glenn: I noticed that some test files had zero durations in them, which highlighted a potential improvement, to require durations>0.
16:13:44 [nigel]: ... This raises a backward compatibility issue that TTML1 documents may have zero durations, though you could say it's implied by the SMIL reference.
16:14:18 [nigel]: ... We could add a clarifying note to TTML1 as an errata to make this clearer.
16:14:24 [nigel]: ... In TTML2 the language can be made normative.
16:14:38 [nigel]: nigel: Any objections to doing this?
16:14:48 [nigel]: all: no objections.
16:15:37 [glenn]: action: glenn to add errata note for ttml1 pointing at constraint in SMIL prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text to ttml2
16:15:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-254 - Add errata note for ttml1 pointing at constraint in smil prohibiting dur of zero, add normative text to ttml2 [on Glenn Adams - due 2014-01-16].
16:16:00 [nigel]: Topic: Pending Review Issues
16:16:06 [nigel]: issue-231?
16:16:06 [trackbot]: issue-231 -- Individual character rotation -- pending review
16:16:06 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/231
16:17:31 [nigel]: nigel: pal raised this - can the solution be confirmed?
16:17:43 [nigel]: pal: has not reviewed it because I didn't know it was there to be reviewed!
16:18:06 [nigel]: action: pal to review issue-231 solution
16:18:06 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-255 - Review issue-231 solution [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-01-16].
16:19:36 [glenn]: https://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my
16:22:52 [nigel]: issue-259?
16:22:52 [trackbot]: issue-259 -- Define "closest" -- pending review
16:22:52 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/259
16:24:22 [nigel]: issue-259: Glenn: it doesn't always make sense to round up, sometimes round down works better, e.g. zIndex
16:24:22 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".
16:25:30 [nigel]: issue-259: pal: I will include some specific text proposals.
16:25:30 [trackbot]: Notes added to issue-259 Define "closest".
16:27:21 [nigel]: pal: IMSC and CFF-TT uses round half up for integer pixel positions in some text, so there's precedence for this.
16:28:26 [nigel]: action: pal to review wording on issue-259 proposed solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with existing profile documents
16:28:27 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-256 - Review wording on issue-259 proposed solution and suggest alternate wording for consistency with existing profile documents [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-01-16].
16:28:53 [nigel]: Topic: Actions pending review
16:29:04 [nigel]: action-141?
16:29:04 [trackbot]: action-141 -- Nigel Megitt to Call for Action to identify discrepancies in TTML 1.0 on different profiles. -- due 2013-02-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:29:04 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/141
16:30:09 [nigel]: issue-162?
16:30:09 [trackbot]: issue-162 -- update standalone profile documents -- open
16:30:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/162
16:30:43 [nigel]: glenn: I had interpreted the title to mean something else because there's already another action to fix this.
16:31:16 [nigel]: actino-225?
16:31:22 [nigel]: action-225?
16:31:22 [trackbot]: action-225 -- Glenn Adams to Work with plh to update standalone profile docs for ttml1se -- due 2013-10-31 -- OPEN
16:31:22 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/225
16:32:10 [nigel]: glenn: Action-141 can be closed when Action-225 is closed.
16:32:19 [nigel]: ... or closed now as a duplicate of 225
16:33:42 [nigel]: glenn: I was going to update the standalone doc in place but I should check that there's no backward compatibility issue.
16:37:13 [nigel]: nigel: What's the impact on anyone who occasionally makes use of the current standalone doc?
16:37:49 [nigel]: glenn: their software might break. However the specification is normative not the standalone document. We wouldn't be doing something new to update the standalone document with an occasional impact.
16:39:01 [Zakim]: -glenn
16:39:15 [nigel]: glenn: We can put a comment into the new document to advise those looking at it that it has changed.
16:39:53 [nigel]: action-238?
16:39:53 [trackbot]: action-238 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Follow up on issue-295 -- due 2013-12-19 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:39:53 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/238
16:41:12 [nigel]: pal: would be good to have glenn's input on this one.
16:42:00 [nigel]: action-243?
16:42:00 [trackbot]: action-243 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Edit dsinger's proposed wording which captures the intent. -- due 2013-12-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:42:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/243
16:43:34 [plh]: http://cldr.unicode.org/
16:46:24 [nigel]: mike: Proposal in this issue is simply to reference CLDR, and that's insufficient to express the empirical examination of subtitles created worldwide.
16:48:09 [nigel]: pal: The intention is to create the union of CLDR and other characters.
16:49:36 [nigel]: nigel: we discussed this at TPAC with W3C i18n expert and came up with the course of action that has resulted in the current edited draft.
16:49:51 [nigel]: pal: I'm not surprised that CLDR doesn't include all characters useful in subtitling and captioning.
16:50:17 [nigel]: ... What this group could consider doing is adding further locale information in the form of characters used for subtitling and captioning.
16:50:26 [nigel]: ... (to CLDR)
16:51:04 [nigel]: mike: Maybe we could do this through W3C i18n. We have some information that Unicode has not understood so it would be good to communicate that.
16:52:16 [nigel]: pal: proposes that this be done after working draft.
16:52:22 [nigel]: mike: volunteers to do this.
16:54:08 [nigel]: topic: aob
16:54:23 [nigel]: mike: action-250 closed
16:54:45 [nigel]: close action-250
16:54:45 [trackbot]: Closed action-250.
16:55:15 [tmichel]: bye all
16:55:18 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
16:55:21 [Zakim]: -Mike
16:55:22 [nigel]: rrsagent, publish minutes
16:55:22 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:55:22 [Zakim]: -Plh
16:55:32 [Zakim]: -nigel
16:56:20 [Zakim]: -tmichel
16:56:55 [Zakim]: -pal
16:56:56 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:56:56 [Zakim]: Attendees were nigel, glenn, +41.22.749.aaaa, tmichel, frans-EBU, Mike, pal, Plh, [Microsoft]
17:07:16 [nigel]: rrsagent, make minutes public
17:07:16 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', nigel. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:08:20 [nigel]: rrsagent, make logs public
17:08:32 [nigel]: rrsagent, publish minutes
17:08:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:10:19 [nigel]: rrsagent, help
17:11:04 [nigel]: RRSAgent, adminhelp
17:19:08 [nigel]: rrsagent, publish minutes
17:19:08 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:21:48 [nigel]: trackbot, status
17:24:10 [nigel]: rrsagent, make log public
17:24:17 [nigel]: rrsagent, draft minutes
17:24:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/01/09-tt-minutes.html nigel