See also: IRC log
No CHAP7 TF meeting on 9-Dec, next meeting on 16-Dec.
RESOLUTION: Chaals to implement Fantasai's proposal, but not have the Note/Rec track discussion separate from the explanation of the difference
RESOLUTION: fantasai joins chaals as co-editor of the Process Document
RESOLUTION: Close issue-54 as there was no consensus for changing Recommendation to Standard, acknowledging it will be raised again.
Ongoing issue in the hand of the editor.
RESOLUTION: Close issue-50 as the resolution of issue-51 will cover the concern of issue-50. Steve Zilles took the action to get in touch with Art Barstow (who raised issue-50) to convince him that combining LC and CR is efficient.
There is consensus to drop "single" in "single signal". The sense of the TF is to encourage meaningful status section messages in the specs.
Usage of "normative" needs clarification. Steve Zilles took the action to contact Ian Jacobs and ask if he knows any reason why Art's suggestions are not worth doing.
Next CHAP7 TF meeting on 16-Dec. Goal would be to have a new draft chapter 7 by mid to late January 2014.
<scribe> scribe: Coralie
<scribe> scribenick: koalie
<koaliie> Previous (2013-11-25)
<trackbot> Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 02 December 2013
SteveZ: there's at least a half hour of the AB
agenda (9-Dec) that is a summary of the CHAP7 Tf
... So I propose to not hold a CHAP7 TF meeting next week
... thoughts?
Jeff: Lot of input especially in the last few
days
... also need to factor in the vacation time in December
RESOLUTION: No CHAP7 call on 9-Dec, next call on 16-Dec.
SteveZ: the 16th would be the last phone call we can effectively hold
Jeff: I'll already be on vacation, FYI
... Maybe I can join, maybe I'll reply in e-mail
[fantasai joins]
SteveZ: Chaals, update on where the next draft
is?
... and secondly, thoughts on full process with chapter 7 in it?
chaals: Next draft so far has some typos
fixed...
... I need to rename LCCR
... then need to look at resolutions
SteveZ: Can we get an updated draft prior to 9-Dec AB teleconference?
chaals: Yes
SteveZ: I'm looking for the issue around
restructuring of table of content
... maybe it wasn't raised as an issue
issue-59
<trackbot> issue-59 -- The 24-Oct-2013 Draft of Ch7 has some organizational issues and readability suffers -- raised
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/59
chaals: I disagreed only with trying to separate
rec track and note track
... in practice they entertwine
... when I first suggested we introduce notes, I think it makes sense to
explain notes
fantasai: There are documents which are meant to
be published as notes
... and others which end up published as notes
... For me they are distinct
... It would help to make that clear
chaals: I think we agree
... There are things that are on the note track, others on rec track that end
up on the note track, etc.
... I don't disagree with the substance
... I prefer one section over two, to do part of the explanation
SteveZ: We can talk about next steps and describe one is the note track
fantasai: We should be clear about what it takes to go to note. Boxes around "next steps" makes sense to me.
chaals: I think we agree fundamentally. I can implement your proposal modulo not keeping them separated.
<chaals> [proposed resolution: Chaals should implement Fantasai's proposal, but not have the Note/Rec track discussion separate from the explanation of the difference]
RESOLUTION: Chaals to implement Fantasai's proposal, but not have the Note/Rec track discussion separate from the explanation of the difference
<Ralph> reopen issue-59
<trackbot> Re-opened issue-59.
fantasai: Someone in that thread said I should be
an editor of the process
... so if you want me there, let me know
chaasls: Do you want to edit the process?
fantasai: Yes
SteveZ: Any objection, chaals, to having fantasai as co-editor?
chaals: No
SteveZ: Any objection?
[none]
RESOLUTION: fantasai joins chaals as co-editor of the Process Document
[fantasai's first request is to re-indent everything]
[chaals and fantasai will talk offline]
Ralph: Please, collaborate in such a way to make source diffs readable
issue-54?
<trackbot> issue-54 -- Change Recommendation to Standard -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/54
<Ralph> Ralph would be happy to close issue-54 as "not at this time"
Chaals: my personal preference is to kill it, but I can easily live with it as "raised"
Jeff: There aren't a multitude of solutions.
... My understdanding is there is more pushback than support
fantasai: There are people who feel strongly about changing, I'd suggest to defer for now
chaals: what fantasai said
Jeff: I don't understand why we're leaving it
open
... there was no consensus for changing it
SteveZ: I wanted to close it on procedural ground
that it's too big a change at this stage
... implementing it seemed too difficult a task to take on
... I tend to agree with fantasai this is something we should ask the AB
about
Mike: We can't finish if we can not resolve simple yes/no issues
SteveZ: This isn't the case.
... Quick strawpoll:
... those who wish to close the issue
Mike: close
... it can be brought up again
... we are not near consensus on it yet
<chaals> [close it...]
<jeff> [close it]
fantasai: I think it's fine to close, but I think it's going to come up again
Ralph: I'm not in favour of making a change at
this time,
... nor in living it in raised state
... I support to close it
... or mark it as "postpone"
Jeff: Close it, as I wrote in IRC.
RESOLUTION: Close issue-54 as there was no consensus for changing Recommendation to Standard, acknowledging it will be raised again.
close issue-54
<trackbot> Closed issue-54.
issue-51?
<trackbot> issue-51 -- What to do with the Status section? -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/51
SteveZ: I believe this is in the hand of the
editor
... by separate email chaals agreed to take the action to implement
issue-51
chaals: Correct.
Ralph: Now that fantasai is an editor, maybe she wants to draft some text.
chaals: I'll shift the issue as "pending review" when there is something to review.
issue-50?
<trackbot> issue-50 -- If LC and CR are combined, Director's Calls can be excessive overhead -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/50
SteveZ: I'd propose to close when issue-51 is closed.
chaals: It may or may not involve a Director's call. I think we already resolved this.
SteveZ: It was my belief that this was a
misunderstanding of how the new process was intended to work
... any objection to closing issue-50?
Jeff: I don't object to closing issue-50, but I
think there is a larger issue at play here
... which is that Art doesn't believe combining LC and CR is efficient
... quite the opposite
... does someone need to sit down with Art and getting him on board?
SteveZ: I'm willing to do that.
Jeff: Thank you.
chaals: Art is happy to raise issues and I'm
happy to talk to him. I agree, we need to answer the questions. +1 to someone
talking to Art.
... Art is going to keep raising questions. And we need to answer till he runs
out of questions
<scribe> ACTION: SteveZ to get in touch with Art about issue-50 and check assessment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/02-w3process-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Get in touch with art about issue-50 and check assessment [on Steve Zilles - due 2013-12-09].
SteveZ: My proposal it to close issue-50 in
favour of issue-51
... since that's the one that will deal with the details that should do
that
... Does anyone object?
[no objection]
close issue-50
<trackbot> Closed issue-50.
<Ralph> issue-50: SteveZ believes the resolution of issue-51 will cover the concern of issue-50
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-50 If LC and CR are combined, Director's Calls can be excessive overhead.
RESOLUTION: Close issue-50 as the resolution of
issue-51 will cover the concern of issue-50. Steve Zilles will get in touch
with Art (who raised issue-50) to convince him that combining LC and CR is
efficient.
issue-52?
<trackbot> issue-52 -- How is satisfying “widely reviewed” encouraged/ensured? -- open
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/52
SteveZ: I was to draft some text...
fantasai: I wrote on that issue as well as a few
others just now
... We need best practices in some cases. I don't think that having a single
label is the best, the new process gives you flexibility
... depending on what you're looking at, you're looking at different levels of
"complete"
... and what is it that is complete, the design? etc. So a single label won't
work.
chaals: I agree with fantasai
<Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to tend to agree with Elika
Ralph: I too agree with fantasai
... it's too soon to propose a single label
... I continue to look forward to reading a new proposal from fantasai on how
to do that
SteveZ: I understand what fantasai said
... maybe with her help, I can go back to David Singer (who raised the
issue)
... as label depends on audience.
Ralph: I'm hoping that your draft text for best practices will include bits on fine-grain
<Ralph> Ralph: I think an overall label of "completeness" may be unnecessary if Fantasai produces the best practices I hope she will write on how editors document the state of specific sections of the document
SteveZ: The one thing I see missing is the point
that some groups only want to review once when it's done,
... How do we signal, how do we get to those groups?
... recognising that "done" may be different from one group to another.
Mike: I think it's a cultural change that we have
to make.
... If you want to make an impact on a spec, you have to review earlier.
SteveZ: I think we're still in the process of debugging the horizontal process review.
Ralph: I'm sympathetic to Mike's concerns, but I
interpret the problem differently.
... When editors document the status of specific sections, the aggregation
suggests a state of the whole document.
... If all the sections about which a reviewer cares are documented as "done"
while other sections are documented as not quite done, they can do their
review
... The magic for me lies in better documentation of individual pieces of a
document.
... It will still be the case that some will start their review too late.
... I don't think Mike's problem is solvable with an overall status bit.
Mike: Yes. These reviews have to be encouraged
earlier in the process.
... It's a good thing to have a label to encourage wide review
SteveZ: Besides a page for editors, we need a
page for reviewers, to understand how to do this, and point from every spec
... How to use the signals within a document.
... We need to do a document for both editors, and reviewers.
... I guess we need to leave this issue open until we see a draft from
fantasai
... But there is consensus to drop "single" in "single signal"
... Objection?
Mike: What would replace "single"?
SteveZ: Marking each section with a status
Mike: I'd agree.
issue-52: SteveZ: There is consensus to drop "single" in "single signal"
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-52 How is satisfying “widely reviewed” encouraged/ensured?.
SteveZ: [reads from Art's issue raising] "To
facilitate the reach and accessibility of this document (especially for
non-English speakers) I think the term `normative` - when not used as a
qualifier for "reference" i.e. "normative reference" - should be eliminated (or
if it really can't be eliminated then define it)."
... He suggests to change "non-normative section" into "informative section",
which makes sense to me.
... The terminology isn't used as it should be
Ralph: I think he's making a different point
... the word "normative" is problematic and we should restrict its use to
"normative reference"
... and he proposes alternatives for all the cases when we use "normative" in
a different context.
... I'm not opposed to the suggestion
SteveZ: Some of the corrections seemed
worthwhile.
... His second suggestion is to "Define "normative reference" and point to the
new policy."
Jeff: Could someone do some archeology on why we used that phrase in the first place?
SteveZ: I can send a note to Ian saying Art suggested the following changes, do you know any reason why they are not worth doing?
<scribe> ACTION: SteveZ to write to Ian about issue-70 and if he knows any reason why Art's suggestions are not worth doing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/12/02-w3process-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Write to ian about issue-70 and if he knows any reason why art's suggestions are not worth doing [on Steve Zilles - due 2013-12-09].
issue-70: see SteveZ's action-24
<trackbot> Notes added to issue-70 Usage of "normative" needs clarification.
<Ralph> [for example, now that Art calls my attention to it the sentence "A W3C Recommendation is a specification or set of normative guidelines ..." seems to be saying something important and the word "normative" appears to be carrying a lot of weight. I support investigating whether there is a more clear way to say the important point here.]
Stevez: [agrees with Jeff] Goal would be to have a new draft chapter 7 by mid to late January 2014
Jeff: Looking at calendar, at the early March AB f2f, we need to look at a new draft.
SteveZ: Next meeting: 16-Dec
... Thanks all.