W3C

- DRAFT -

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

05 Sep 2013

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Jan, kford, +1.609.734.aaaa, [Microsoft]
Regrets
-Kim
Chair
Jim Kelly
Scribe
allanj

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 05 September 2013

<scribe> scribe: allanj

F2F Recap

we rock, got lots done

js: need clean/done document by 9/12 for publishing

Resolution: No Changes after Sept 12.

js: reports from folks who did things

kp: reworked the stems for SC

see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0056.html

kp: spreadsheet http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/att-0054/SC_Stems_proposed_changes_from_20130829.xlsx

jr: +1 to kim, we are on the same page

discussion of Provide focus choice.

gl: too broad

js: doesn't match intent of SC

related to 1.8.10

jr: issue with global volume

these changes are not normative we can smith during last call

jr: global volume is 1.5.1

ja: take discussion to the list.

Resolution: Accept proposal for Stem reworking, exceptions noted. discussion on list

<kford> Here is a review of P1. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0057.html

kf: issue with 1.1.3 note

Note: At level A, the user agent can specify that an alternative content or placeholder replace the non-text content. At level AA success criterion 1.1.3 requires that the user can specify one format or placeholder to be used. At level AAA success criterion 1.1.5 requires that the user can specify a cascade order of types of alternative content to be used.

jr: would be fine if we dropped this note, just meta information

js: might go in resources

jr: or in intent

Resolution: remove note in 1.1.3

kf: 1.2.1 issues

jr: there is an open action from f2f to reword

kf: screenreaders do what we want. if link image they show file name, don't discourage that.

<jeanne> Master document for today's meeting <- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html

jr: right, AT does right thing, don't want authoring tools etc doing the wrong thing.

gl: cites mobile and vision issues for turning off images, if no alt, user has no idea about where link goes...

ja: cites animated gif Link with no alt, browser should do something to give info to user with no AT

kf: 1.9 source view -- many sources, not clear
... page source is different from rendered source
... generally it is the rendered source that is most important

js: put in intent. messing with the SC will take lots of time.

ja: +1 to intent

generated source vs original source

gl: inspecting tools give you generated source

<jeanne> I'm ok with clarifying it as a note

developers toolbar http://chrispederick.com/work/web-developer/firefox/ (dom source and page source

<scribe> ACTION: greg to reword 1.9.2 for both sources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-884 - Reword 1.9.2 for both sources [on Greg Lowney - due 2013-09-12].

Action Item Review

js: those open in tracker

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open

<jeanne> action-827 defintion of levels - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html#intro-conf-levels

<jeanne> closed action-831

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to move Appendix E to wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-885 - Move appendix e to wiki page [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-12].

close action-836

<trackbot> Closed action-836.

<jeanne> close action-856

<trackbot> Closed action-856.

<jeanne> close action-870

<trackbot> Closed action-870.

<jeanne> close action-855

<trackbot> Closed action-855.

Glossary Review - Reminder to read the Glossary before the meeting

<jeanne> close action-880

<trackbot> Closed action-880.

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html#glossary

eh: review of glossary http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0059.html
... most editorial

kp: did a quick review looks ok

proposal:

text alternatives for non-text content: Text that is either (a) programmatically associated with non-text content or (b) referred to by such text. Sometimes both kinds of text alternatives occur together. For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives – one of each kind: (a) a short text description that is programmatically associated with the chart (e.g., alt text) and (b) a description in...

scribe: the paragraph that is referred to by the short text description.”

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#alt-time-based-mediadef

eh: def of alternatives for time based media issue

jr: took def from ATAG

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#captionsdef

jr: we define alternatives for time based media more broadly than WCAG.

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#def-Alternative-Content

eh: ok with ATAG def. withdraw concern that it doesn't match WCAG

js: like proposal

jr: only programmatic text is machine readable

gl: started a proposal for this definition. in progress.
... either associated directly (alt, longdesc) or indirectly (labelledby, describedby)

eh: may have misunderstood the intent
... wasn't clear that both direct and indirect are programmatically available

<Jan> From WCAG: text alternative Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content or referred to from text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. Programmatically associated text is text whose location can be programmatically determined from the non-text content. Example: An image of a chart is described in text in the paragraph after the chart. The short text...

<Jan> ...alternative for the chart indicates that a description follows. Note: Refer to Understanding Text Alternatives for more information.

jr: WCAG does not assume machine readability, UAAG does (recognized)

eh: needs to be clearer.

<Jan> Importantly, from the perspective of authoring tools, alternative content may or may not be:

<Jan> #def-Associated-Alternative-Contentprogrammatically associated: Alternative content whose location and purpose can be programmatically determined from the original content for which it is serving as an alternative. For example, a paragraph might serve as a text alternative for an image, but it is only programmatically associated if this relationship is properly encoded (e.g., by...

<Jan> ..."aria-labeledby").

jr: this might make it more clear if we use above language (change referent to user agent)
... this term must be things that are machine readable (programatically associated)

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#def-Alternative-Content

Importantly, from the perspective of user agents, alternative content may or may not be programmatically associated: Alternative content whose location and purpose can be programmatically determined from the original content for which it is serving as an alternative. For example, a paragraph might serve as a text alternative for an image, but it is only programmatically associated if this...

scribe: relationship is properly encoded (e.g., by."aria-describedby")

<Jan> text alternatives for non-text content: Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives: a description in the paragraph after the chart and a short text alternative for the chart indicating in words that a description follows.

ja: +1 to new def

gl: issues
... a description in para after chart...is not an alternative unless tagged.

jr: will add aria-describedby

<Jan> text alternatives for non-text content: Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content....+ Greg's text.

<Greg> alternative content: this should include a category for text alternatives for text content, such as is provided by HTML's ABBR element.(ABBR is an example in Appendix E.)

gl: definition is too narrow. doesn't cover <abbr title=foo>

<Greg> "For example, an image of a chart might have two text alternatives: a description in the paragraph after the chart, as long as the two are linked by a method such as ARIA describedby, or..."

kp: need something different for examples or sub bulleted items in the definitions
... bullets confusing (separating sub def from examples)
... seems to be an extra level of bullets in the implementing document, would make it easier to read

<Jan> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130905/MasterUAAG20130905.html

<scribe> ACTION: allanj to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.

<scribe> ACTION: jallan to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-886 - Rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [on Jim Allan - due 2013-09-12].

alternative for text content

rrsagent make minutes

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: allanj to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: greg to reword 1.9.2 for both sources [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to rewrite definition of alternative content - include bullet for <abbr title=foo>, change sentence for text-alternatives for non-text content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to move Appendix E to wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html#action02]
 
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Succeeded: s/choise/choice/
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Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: allanj
Default Present: Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Jan, kford, +1.609.734.aaaa, [Microsoft]
Present: Jim_Allan Jeanne Greg_Lowney Kim_Patch Jan kford +1.609.734.aaaa [Microsoft]

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Kim)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ -Kim

Regrets: -Kim
Found Date: 05 Sep 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/09/05-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: allanj greg jallan jeanne

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