W3C

- DRAFT -

mlw-lt f2f

24 Jan 2013

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Arle, tadej, Jirka, DaveLewis, Marcis, Ankit, leroy, Yves, mdelolmo, pnietoca, Karl, swalter, truedesheim, dF, christian(remote 11-12), felix, Milan
Regrets
Chair
felix
Scribe
fsasaki, dF, daveL

Contents


<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0123.html

issue-113

<fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0123.html

<fsasaki> ACTION: arle to do copy-edtiing on the spec - due 1 april [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-422 - do copy-edtiing on the spec [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-04-01].

<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to to edits for issue-113 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - To edits for issue-113 [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].

<fsasaki> "Information (e.g. "translate this") captured by ITS markup (e.g. its:translate='yes') always pertains to one or more XML or HTML nodes (primarily element and attribute nodes). "

<fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki

<pnietoca> I found another typo

<pnietoca> on section 5.8 the paragraph before example 26

<pnietoca> says: On any given node, the information provided by this mechanism is a space-separated list of the accumulated references found "it" the annotatorsRef attributes declared in the enclosing elements and sorted by data category identifiers. For each data category, the IRI part is the one of the inner-most "declarartion".

<pnietoca> found "it" the annotatorsRef > it should be in

<pnietoca> declarartion should be declaration

<Arle> I just raised an issue for what you found: https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/114

<Arle> ACTION: Arle to fix section 8.9 note: "since the extra training resources does not justify the improvement in the output." -> "since the extra training resources do not justify the improvement in the output." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Fix section 8.9 note: "since the extra training resources does not justify the improvement in the output." -> "since the extra training resources do not justify the improvement in the output." [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-01-31].

https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/blob/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html/domain1htmlrules.xml

<scribe> ACTION: ankit to change test suite for domain in HTML https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/tree/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html , that is have "keywords" instead of "description" in the HTML and rules files [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Change test suite for domain in HTML https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/tree/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html , that is have "keywords" instead of "description" in the HTML and rules files [on Ankit Srivastava - due 2013-01-31].

<Yves_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0158.html

<pnietoca> thanks Arle

rome + xml prague prep

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-multilingualweb-lt/2013Jan/0000.html

<Arle> Arle: I will be submitting new templates for the posters. They had been A1 size, but we are going for A0. Links will be sent out soon.

<scribe> ACTION: arle to create an indicator for poster relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-426 - Create an indicator for poster relations [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-01-31].

<scribe> ACTION: felix to nudge people for a first poster draft - 28 february [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-427 - Nudge people for a first poster draft - 28 february [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].

disambiguation and terminology again

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-comments/2013Jan/0163.html

<scribe> scribe: fsasaki

<dF> scribe: dF

Tadej: showing slides
... seems there is a way that would not compromise ITS 1.0 term
... several different attributes, now with two categories
... simultaneous annotations on multiple granularity levels are not possible
... currecntly, fragment is in relationship with a URI
... but term is flag
... Scenario A
... term remains flag, but becomes a new granularity within disambiguation.

Issues: ... multiple annotations still not possible

Felix: clarification, this should be possible through concatenated values

Tadej: Ugly but doable as an excercise..

Marcis: we discussed that

Tadej: did not seem a good idea

Another suggestion leading to B

scribe: granularitoes make sense indepenedently
... terminology is just one level
... having a set of attributes for every level
... lots of new attributes
... BUT everything can be done simultaneously and independently
... multivalues seemed to require black magic to implement, gets ugly fast
... decided to keep cardinality at 1

Scenario B

scribe: Keep terminology, drop granularity
... encode the levels stright in attributes

Felix: clarification, separate data category identifier for each level?

Tadej: basically, yes, oterwise we would need subcategories
... but the same pattern is always repeated, this should be good for adoption
... it would be just a refactoring job

swalter: danger of semantic contradictions
... but it id not the formats issue to try and prevent this

Tadej: we were trying to avoid the host of the different attributes by introducing glanurity

Yves: is it a single data category, or four?

Tadej: technically they are different from the modelling point of view, but they have same pattern, so can be grouped
... but they are independent in a sence and can go standalone..

Felix: What about implementation commitments? Do we enforce implementing all four, if one committs for one?

tadej: all it seems, but it is not requesting too much as they really are the same mechanism

<Arle> (Off topic, but poster templates are here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/223919/lt-web/RomeWorkshop/PosterTemplateA0.pptx [PowerPoint] and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/223919/lt-web/RomeWorkshop/PosterTemplateA0.pdf [PDF].)

tadej: they do not have different behaviors

Felix: are Christian's concerns addressed with this?
... the starting point was wondering about the relationship between term and disambiguation

<fsasaki> tadej: we would simply rename things, but not break the model of term

<fsasaki> felix: how does scneario b relate to terminology?

<fsasaki> tadej: terminolgoy already conforms to the pattern of scenario b, that is why we said we keep it as is

<fsasaki> dave: we could not touch terminology at all

<fsasaki> .. the use cases that we want could all be done in disambiguation

<fsasaki> .. so we keep terminology but say that we can do everything now in disambiguation

<fsasaki> tadej: if there is a know term, would you use termInfoRef or disambigXxxRef?

<fsasaki> .. the relationships in disambiguation is in one pattern

<fsasaki> .. and term already follows the pattern already

<fsasaki> .. how to handle that in terms of data categories is a differetent aspect

<daveL> scribe: daveL

christian: core of my point related to different levels of attribute for different annotaiton, ontology, lexical etc
... confirms that the proposal related to different data categories for these different levels

tadej: one exception to common pattern in entity class ref beign part of entity class

christian: to be satisfied, is what do we do with the current class of terminology
... would suggest giving guidance by deprecating term through best practice advice

felix: why would we deprecate the term option

christian: meant depricating the current data term category

felix: thing to proposal is that term is already following the pattern the proposed pattern, so it wouldn't changed

tadej: suggested options are having term as a disambig option or as keep term as it is for this

dave: could have both and as christian suggests give guideance on which oen to adopt of how to transation from term to term in disambiugate

tadej: having both raises the issue that term could say 'yes' while disambig term option sa no, how should this be handled

stephan: could be addressed at a schematron validation level

felix: asks for input from implementors, but no strong perferences forthcoming

tadej: note that this approach results in lots of new attribute
... also propose a catch all 'keyword' for things that don't fit into the defined categories
... some fragement of text that is important for someone

christian: its good to consider support additional classes of analysis, but this isn't part of the comment to date

felix: summarise, we don't have examples, spec text and commitment to implement for this proposal
... this requires some considerable effort before we are in a position to gt consensus
... asks do the proposers have time to work on this to get it mature enough to even ask on consensus

Christian: allocating time for me is difficult

felix: as chair we really need to see this topic advance before we can ask concensus. It really needed by next week or two.
... in order to hit a last call draft end february

Christian: does this proposal address the hiearchical NER issue raised by colleagues in India

tadej: this is orthogonal, so ti doesn't solve problem

stephan: can we agree on name, an acronym is really useful

felix: can people complete work in the time

yves: sceptical that this can be done in time given the amount of time and work involved in disambig to date
... suggest that we go forward with other comments related to dismabig anyway, so these are not held up by looking at this proposal

dF: this would be a definite substantive change requiring a frther last call

felix: there are other that are borderline

action item and issue review

<fsasaki> issue-67: DECISION-DETAILS: substantive borderline change

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-67 Change definition of regular expression for allowed characters.

<fsasaki> issue-68: DECISION-DETAILS: under discussion

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-68 Disambiguation (and term).

<fsasaki> issue-71: DECISION-DETAILS: resolution to be clarified

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-71 Section 5.8 (annotatorsRef).

<fsasaki> issue-72: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-72 Section 8.12 (Provenance Data Category).

<fsasaki> issue-73: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-73 NIF comments.

<fsasaki> issue-73: DECISION-DETAILS: follow-up needed

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-73 NIF comments.

<fsasaki> issue-72: DECISION-DETAILS: clarification

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-72 Section 8.12 (Provenance Data Category).

<fsasaki> issue-102: DECISION-DETAILS: borderline substantive

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-102 I18N-ISSUE-242: Clarify case-insensitive match for domains [ITS-20].

<fsasaki> issue-110: DECISION-DETAILS: borderline substantive

<trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-110 change to langRule: precedence of xml:lang and lang.

<fsasaki> close action-36

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-36 Ongoing social media outreach of mlw.

<fsasaki> action-215?

<trackbot> ACTION-215 -- David Filip to generate a sample of testing involving XLIFF -- due 2013-02-04 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/215

<fsasaki> close action-309

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-309 pick up disambiguation granuliartiy best practices topic later.

<fsasaki> covered by ongoing disambig+term discussion

<fsasaki> close actoin-342

<fsasaki> close action-342

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-342 create mt confidence score example as described in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/29-mlw-lt-irc#T14-50-33.

<fsasaki> above not needed anymore

<fsasaki> close action-352

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-352 Prepare status report on Task 5.1.

<fsasaki> close action-353

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-353 Prepare status report on Task 5.2.

<fsasaki> close action-354

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-354 provide input about wp1.

<fsasaki> above done or tracked by felix

<fsasaki> close action-374

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-374 Distribute action items to define these tests and to provide guideance of how to formulate these tests against rcf2119 table.

<fsasaki> close action-376

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-376 Pull this material on best practice together onto wiki for people to comment on.

<fsasaki> not needed for BP work now, covered with new tracker product https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/9

<fsasaki> close action-384

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-384 Make agenda proposal for Prague meeting about the XML prague day.

<fsasaki> close action-386

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-386 Contact original commenter and see whether Yves additions to comment are what was meant there.

<fsasaki> above done

<fsasaki> close action-387

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-387 Contact original commenter about real need of timestamp.

<fsasaki> above done

<fsasaki> close action-388

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-388 Come back to chase and kevin about discussion of issue-71 http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-mlw-lt-irc#T08-34-49.

<fsasaki> above done

<fsasaki> close action-402

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-402 Fix text and algo for domain case mapping.

<fsasaki> above done, including test cases

<fsasaki> close action-403

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-403 Check availability of Berlin on 17–18 June for face-to-face meeting..

<fsasaki> close action-406

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-406 Resize templates for posters from A1 to A0..

<fsasaki> close action-409

<trackbot> Closed ACTION-409 Follow up with Richard and Norbert on issue-92 and issue-103..

<fsasaki> borderline "another last call cases": issue-63, issue-67

<fsasaki> issue-71

<trackbot> ISSUE-71 -- Section 5.8 (annotatorsRef) -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/71

<fsasaki> issue-102

<trackbot> ISSUE-102 -- I18N-ISSUE-242: Clarify case-insensitive match for domains [ITS-20] -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/102

<fsasaki> issue-110

<trackbot> ISSUE-110 -- change to langRule: precedence of xml:lang and lang -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/110

<fsasaki> and, in addition:

<fsasaki> issue-68

<trackbot> ISSUE-68 -- Disambiguation (and term) -- open

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/68

<fsasaki> daveF: quite a number of borderline, so we might need another last call, let's check with the mgmt

<fsasaki> felix: two unknowns: ruby and directionality related comments

<fsasaki> daveF: even if we went to antother LC, I wouldn't change term and dissambiugation

<fsasaki> felix: worried about implementation committments for terminology and dissambig

<fsasaki> marcis: we have three for both terminology and disambiguation

<fsasaki> daveF: clean solution would require 4 categories

<fsasaki> marcis: and at the end it would be dropped

<fsasaki> felix: I don't see consensus on how to move forward

<fsasaki> .. let's see what the next weeks bring

BP publications

<fsasaki> discussing where to publish BP documents - TR space, via i18n WG, via ITS IG

meeting schedule

<fsasaki> f2f in bled and dublin confirmed

<Arle> Send any presentations missing from http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/2012-annual-report/presentations.html to Arle

<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to come back to links to implemenations - due 28 Feburary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-428 - come back to links to implemenations [on Felix Sasaki - due 1970-01-01].

final event ideas

<fsasaki> yves: would be difficiutl to gather same crowd we have in rome 6 months later in europe

<fsasaki> .. there are events at the end of the year in the states, e.g. Uncode / locworld etc. wich we could target

<fsasaki> .. so we could try to do something as a group

<fsasaki> .. use that as a complement to the european outreach we will do in Rome

<fsasaki> unicode conf. is 21-13 october

best practices

<fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/9

<fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/products/8

<fsasaki> xliff - ITS relation

<fsasaki> disambiguation vs. term (depending on current discussion)

<fsasaki> mapping to provenance - dave

<fsasaki> xliff vs. ITS - dave, david, yves

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/XLIFF_Mapping

<fsasaki> localization quality issue / rating related BP - arle, this summer, related to QTLaunchpad

<fsasaki> how to use (populate & consume) mt-confidence and domain - ankit

<fsasaki> above would include about m4loc

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary

<fsasaki> how to use storage size - stephan

<fsasaki> high level summary based on http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Use_cases_-_high_level_summary - felix

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables

<fsasaki> co-ordinate EU reports http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Deliverables with BP documents

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2008/12/its-extensions

<fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check xliff ITS mapping namespace hosting in w3c [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-429 - Check xliff ITS mapping namespace hosting in w3c [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-01-31].

<fsasaki> use of term - stephan, tadej and marcis. Depends on how we proceed with term vs. disambiguation issue

disambiguation again

<fsasaki> tadej: need to clarify: do we need granularity at all?

<fsasaki> .. if not, we don't need to merge disambiguation and terminonlogy

<fsasaki> .. will ask that question on the list

<fsasaki> thanks to all for the meeting, adjourned!

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: ankit to change test suite for domain in HTML https://github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/tree/master/its2.0/inputdata/domain/html , that is have "keywords" instead of "description" in the HTML and rules files [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: arle to create an indicator for poster relations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: arle to do copy-edtiing on the spec - due 1 april [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Arle to fix section 8.9 note: "since the extra training resources does not justify the improvement in the output." -> "since the extra training resources do not justify the improvement in the output." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to check xliff ITS mapping namespace hosting in w3c [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to come back to links to implemenations - due 28 Feburary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to nudge people for a first poster draft - 28 february [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: felix to to edits for issue-113 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action02]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.137 (CVS log)
$Date: 2013-01-27 19:40:15 $