W3C

- DRAFT -

Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

04 Dec 2012

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, Jacob_Rossi, Rick_Byers, Asir_Vedamuthu, Scott_González, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Brubeck
Regrets
Chair
Art
Scribe
Art, Rick

Contents


<ArtB> Scribe: Art

<ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB

Date: 4 December 2012

<smaug> hmm, is it possible to teach Zakim to bind certain nick always to the right person

<smaug> mbrubeck: ping

Getting started

AB: need a scribe (cheat sheet <http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings#Meeting_Scribes>)

RB: I can take it today but want someone else to help in the future

AB: thanks Rick

<scribe> ScribeNick: rbyers

<ArtB> Scribe+ Rick

Jacob: we should rotate scribe according the bugs

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0077.html

announcements?

CfC to publish first public working draft

Art: proposal is to go ahead and publish it
... but Jacob is free to update the doc, eg. to reflect any decisions made today
... any objections?

None

<ArtB> RESOLUTION: the group agrees to publish a FPWD of Pointer Events

<ArtB> ACTION: Jacob prepare a FPWD and notify Art when it is ready (see http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/SpecEditing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-6 - Prepare a FPWD and notify Art when it is ready (see http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/SpecEditing) [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-11].

Art: guess is doc will be published a week from today, or ... <missed>
... last date to publish this year is Dec 13

Jacob: is there a CfC period?

Art: No, resolution is good enough for you to start

Jacob: Think I can get it in sometime this week

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow send Transition Request for FPWD of Pointer Events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Send Transition Request for FPWD of Pointer Events [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-11].

bugs

Jacob: for new bugs, suggest we wait for some discussion on the list

bug 20107 - Pointer events should indicate stylus eraser/inversion

<ArtB> —> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107

Jacob: current spec doesn't expose erase, valid feedback.
... default guess: another value for the button property

Rick: how is the button identified?

Jacob: suggest we use the identifier from the USB HID

<jrossi2> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#chorded-button-interactions

Jacob: suggest appending to this table a button #5%
... will send mail with suggested button name
... if everyone agrees, will change the spec

Bug 20108 - Extend pointer events to support raw trackpad data

<ArtB> —> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20108

correction

Bug 20108 - Clarify pointer capture behavior

Jacob: what's missing from the spec are some additional things IE10 does for the capture APIs:
... see bug for details
... #1 - should it be possible to capture when buttons=0?

Olli: may need other mechanism for UA to release pointer capture
... gecko is fairly strict in it's set capture implementation
... probably more so than IE

Jacob: sounds like we need some allowances for UAs to choose to release capture at other times

Olli: Agree

Jacob: in IE10, it also differs between Win7 and Win8
... I will think through some spec text to give more freedom
... to clarify, IE10 only has preview on Win7 that doesn't support pointer events.
... #4 from bug: pointer events aren't dispatched to elements not in the document
... believe this is consistent with most types of events

Rick: touch events is very different - always capture to the node where they started, even once removed from the document

Jacob: prefer not to allow events for detached element

Rick: agree

Jacob: #5: compat mouse events are also redirected to captured element
... to be consistent with where pointer events
... hearing no opposition, should we add them?

Olli: should we limited capturing to a single document?

Jacob: I have looked into those multi-iframe scenarios.
... you're not going to get access to the dom, but you will get co-ordinate data
... agree we need to be very careful.
... if we come up with a specific issue, we can open a bug to add a restrictioon

Olli: ok

RESOLUTION: Will add the additional pointer capture conditions to the spec

20109 - Permitted values for pressure https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20109

<ArtB> —> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0018.html

<jrossi2> http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/Hut1_12v2.pdf

Jacob: Input APIs in Windows are largely designed around this USB spec
... defines two different ways of looking at pressure, as discussed on the list
... uses both relative (0..127) and absolute (physical units) forms of pressure
... get the point that a more capable pen should be able to provide higher than normal values
... think we should either keep it as is, or switch to physical units

Olli: clear we can't report some random value that has no meaning

Rick: probably only conforming behavior on Android is to truncate above 1.0

Jacob: want the property to be interoperable and mean the same thing

<Asir> sorry I got dropped and reconnected

Rick: key question is if we have only one anchor, should we anchor against the maximum value or some subjective indication of 'norma' pressure

Jacob: related issue: how to report no support for pressure
... currently we report 0

Matt: would be nice for applicatons to have one code path for pressure sensitive and non-pressure sensitive devices
... using 0 means the app must handle the two cases seperately

Jacob: we want this to be device agnostic - don't want to become a device properties spec

Jacob/Matt/Rick: agree we should simulate reasonable pressure

Jacob: in particular, if device does not support pressure, value should be 0 when not in active button state, and 1 when it is

RESOLUTION: if device does not support pressure, value should be 0 when not in active button state, and 1 when it is

Jacob: OK, what about max vs. normal?

Art: could rely on implementation feedback

Rick: evidence for using 'normal' is not strong

RESOLUTION: Keep pressure range as speced, but listen for implementation feedback

shepazu: Can emulate pressure via surface area
... should we account for this?

Jacob: a UA could do this, and web site wouldn't notice. So would be hard to call this not compliant

shepazu: should we mention this as a note?

Jacob: don't want to go too far in specifying device behavior here

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow add doug's use case about varying touch pressure to v.next list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Add doug's use case about varying touch pressure to v.next list [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-11].

20111 - Define compatibility mapping for touch events https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20111

Art: any objections to touch-events mapping being done in webevents WG instead of pointer events wG?

None

RESOLUTION: Touch-event mapping is out of scope for pointer events WG, will be handled by web events WG instead

<ArtB> ACTION: barstow work with Doug and Rick on defining Touch Events mapping in the Web Events WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Work with Doug and Rick on defining Touch Events mapping in the Web Events WG [on Arthur Barstow - due 2012-12-11].

20112 - pointerenter and pointerleave events https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20112

Jacob: no opposition to adding to the spec, assuming it's the same definition as for mouse

Art: any objections?

RESOLUTION: Add pointeenter and pointerleave to spec using the same model as mouseenter and mouseleave

Art: extend to 90 minutes?

Rick: Jacob: hope/expect we won't have 90 minutes worth of bugs to discuss

Doug: would have conflict

Jacob: suggest we leave as is for at least December, and if we're building up a backlog we can revisit in new year
... if we're active on the mailing list then we can cover more there

Pointer Events and Click; thread <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0072.html>

Art: seems to have resolved, follow-up on list

any other business

Art: will have meeting next week, Doug will chair

Rick: I may not be able to make it next week

Doug: I will keep track
... and let the list know if there's a meeting next week

Jacob: what do we need to do to get Matt permission to help edit the PE spec?

Art: all members already have permission

Jacob: OK, I'll work with Matt to make him an editor

np Art, a few more times and I may start to get better at it ;-)

<ArtB> rbyers - you are doing a GREAT job!

<ArtB> Scribe: Rick

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: barstow add doug's use case about varying touch pressure to v.next list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: barstow send Transition Request for FPWD of Pointer Events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: barstow work with Doug and Rick on defining Touch Events mapping in the Web Events WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob prepare a FPWD and notify Art when it is ready (see http://www.w3.org/wiki/Webapps/SpecEditing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2012-12-04 17:07:25 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

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Found Scribe: Art
Found ScribeNick: ArtB
Found ScribeNick: rbyers
Found Scribe: Rick
Scribes: Art, Rick
ScribeNicks: ArtB, rbyers
Default Present: +1.717.578.aaaa, +1.770.402.aabb, Matt_Brubeck, Art_Barstow, Olli_Pettay, [Microsoft], +1.519.513.aacc, Doug_Schepers
Present: Art_Barstow Olli_Pettay Jacob_Rossi Rick_Byers Asir_Vedamuthu Scott_González Doug_Schepers Matt_Brubeck
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0077.html
Found Date: 04 Dec 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/12/04-pointerevents-minutes.html
People with action items: about add barstow case doug jacob pressure s touch use varying

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