31 Oct 2012

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<karen_> Introductions: Ivan Herman, W3C is moderating

<scribe> ScribeNick: fantasai

Ivan: This is not just about electronic books, although we are starting with that
... The background of all this is that sometime last wintertime, W3C started a number of what we call 'Headlight" projects, looking at various areas of industry or other activities to see whether there are areas where W3C sees potential for cooperation

<karen_> Markus Gylling, ePub overview

<karen_> Thierry Michel, W3C

Ivan: The digital publishing came out of this experience
... We had a feeling that there's an area here that we would like to address somehow
... B/c headlight project, it's about the future

<karen_> Ivan: Unsure if this will become a separate activity

<karen_> ...at W3C

Ivan: It's only future that will tell whether this will become an activity within W3C, or whether we decide that there is nothing to do here
... One thing that we hit very early on, is that digital publishing is very vague term
... Want to define the focus to make things more concrete
... We came up with an arbitrary focus areas
... Production workflow, journals + magazines, electronic books, scientific publishing, and metadata
... Production workflow, not even sure the name is really good, but is about everything that happens in the backend
... At some point in time, the author produces a manuscript, mostly in word
... but other formats
... That was what publishers told me they did
... At the end of the process, they produce a book in various formats
... There is a complicated and specialized workflow there, with tools
... Today it's dominated by XML pipelines
... This is really changing area, where ppl want to look at other things
... effect of HTML5 is there as well
... whole area there
... Electronic books is another area
... Various types of books, not just novels, although today this is what dominates the ebook market
... You can have childrens books, interactive books, and evencomplex multimedia publications
... Very popular today. People reading books on many devices, on transit, etc.
... Huge discussions on business models and DRM
... Journals and magazines have similarties to electornic books, but has differences
... Very dynamic -- published frequently, rapidly
... Social web becoming more improtant to this
... The business model is different than for electronic books
... There is another contact with another headlight there, advertising
... And searching is important, esp. for journals
... Scientific publication is another area
... Lots of commonalities
... What it means is changing
... Previously just paper
... Now data, algorithms, etc.
... Also has a social aspect, because of peer review etc.
... Another area, whether we can handle that or not, I don't know
... Important role for scientists for specialized tools
... e.g. Google Scholar
... Also part of this publication environment
... Also metadata, needed everywhere, for cataloging and search
... An electronic book can carry all its metadata in it
... Previously library had to manualy catalog into various systems
... This area involves both publishers and librarians
... So these are the areas we came up with
... Plan is to organize various workshops in this area
... figure out issues that are utually of interest
... All these users are major users of W3C technology
... WGs can expect feedback from these groups
... One thing I must emphasize here is that W3C doesn't intend to replace other organizations, industry consortia, that already exist
... We want to work with them
... E.g. EPUB is done by IDPF, and workshop in NYC is co-organized with them
... For magazines and journals, there's IPTC
... etc.

<karen_> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/

Ivan: The plan is to have a workshap on eletronic books
... Current plans are to have a workshop on the workflow area in 2013
... Electronic books is well-advanced
... Workflows, much more in brainstorming phase
... So no idea where or when, probably somewhere in Europe but not decided
... If things go well, and feedback goes well, we may attack other areas in 2014
... This is a new area for all of us
... have to learn a lot

Ivan hands over to Markus Gylling

mgylling: So, we're going to try to avoid making this whole session presentations, so try to run quickly
... Ivan mentioned IDPF
... Non-profit trade and standards organization
... approx 400 members from 30+ countries
... Our main target is EPUB format
... which we are developing and promoting as the one or only open format for digital books available today
... One tagline we use is "Where digital publishing meets the Open Web"
... The intent of EPUB is not to define something that deviates from the open web platform, but rather work towards getting digital publishg towards the sweet spot
... where we use as much of the open web platform as possible
... EPUB has bene around since 2000
... Organization has developed from developing only format for interchange, to also providing format for consumption
... started with Adobe, B&N, etc.
... Other industries now supporting EPUB as primary format
... So, EPUB3 is latest version of the EPUB standard, 3rd standard
... done exactly 1 year ago
... 3 major goals
... 1st is to update/modernize ourselves
... EPUB 2 was based on subset of XHTML1.1 and CSS2
... EPUB3 uses HTML5 and profile of CSS3
... Other major goals were a11y and i18n
... put a lot of effor tto making sure that EPUB 3 can serve these
... DAISY Consortium has merged with IDPF to make sure that books can be accessible
... wrt i18n, included things like vertical writing, important for zh and ja
... Here is a graph of the layout of an EPUB book
... there's a zip container
... There's content files, SVG, etc.
... Also a lot of overarching metadata
... We have package file that lists global metadata
... order of contetn in reading order
... defined spots for digital signatures, encryption, etc.
... does not define a DRM format itself, but books can include one
... We can also do media overlays, using SMIL
... which allows document-wide synchronization of audio and text
... you can use it for audio books and text
... that's the overview

John?: What do you mean by hooks for DRM?

mgylling: The encryption of XML5 is commonly used by most common implementations of EPUB [...]
... huge interop issue, because users who purchase from one system can't use their book in a different system
... many players think we should not do DRM at all, go towards other solutions
... There's an ongoing discusison in IDPF wrt what to do to solve this

John: In the video space, the new ISo-MPEG common encryption .. allows multiple DRMs

mgylling: There's multiple solutions. One called UltraViolet

ivan: Let's say a few words wrt workshop itself

?: Where can we get more information on how EPUB fits together?

mgylling: You want an introduction to EPUB?

O'Reilly: What is EPUB 3

mgylling: freely-available intro to EPUB
... also idpf.org

<glazou> Thierry Michel, W3C

Thierry: Say a few words about upcoming workshop
... We are currently investigating into digital publishing; first step will be that workshop
... This workshop will happen in NYC, 11-12 February 2013
... because lots of publishers hosted in that city
... Workshop will be hosted by o"reilly
... In order to ease the venue and attendence, we co-located with Tools of Change publishign conference (TOC) also organized by O'Reilly
... also organized in partnership with Book Industry Study Grou (BISG), maintain standards and best practices for books
... and IDPF
... Goal of this workshop is that currently there's lots of format, not only EPUB3, but bunch of various formats
... Some are proprietary, some are open, some are proprietary extensions to open formats
... This really breaks the interoperability and headache for consumers
... Think there's a place for W3c to help here
... As W3C did for Web, has role here to lead ebook publishing to full potential
... Great opportunity to bring major players together
... We'll have 3 co-chairs, and will have expertise from BISG, IDPF/DAISY, W3C

Thierry describes various other attendies

Thierry: Large variety of potential topics
... roganized them into 3 different areas: production, presentation, distribution
... within production, first issue is standardization and relation with current and future W3C standards

<stearns> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/topics.html

Thierry: 2nd topic is about layout
... today, ebooks is not only publication of novels, but goes beyond that with publication of more complex layout
... Not only adaptive, but also fixed layout
... next topic will be a11y, fallbacks
... voice control, text-to-speech, media overlay
... device descriptions for processing ebooks on server, media queries for ex
... color management, widget definitions
... we're seeing proprietary widgets, we'd like to standardize
... for distribution, as Ivan mentioned, we believe DRM is the issue
... It brings overburden to consumers
... So there are different types of DRM: open DRM, social DRM, etc.
... packaging is osmething to discuss
... also related to packaging like in webapps
... Also ISBN numbers, versioning, etc.
... I'll let you have a look at the potential, possible other topics
... Who should participate? Obviously anyone involved in ebooks

<stearns> participation URL : http://www.w3.org/2012/08/electronic-books/expected.html

Thierry: To participate as an individual or organization, you must submit a position paper
... Show your perspective and your viewpoint, including concrete examples of your suggestions
... Can expres your interest today, whether plan to submit paper or show a demo
... Dec 10 is deadline for position papers

<rigo> I wonder if someone from http://www.w3.org/community/odrl/ is here

Thierry: By january 15, we will send acceptance, registration instructions, etc.
... Registration by Feb 1st, it's free for invited participants
... If you want to learn more, visit our call for participation page or mailing list team-electronic-books-chairs@w3.org

r12a: Called out a11y, but not i18n, why?

<stearns> (it's in the "other topics" list)

Thierry: We thought about i18n, but was removed... could be there, it's been removed because we tried to focus on main topics

Ivan: The way we thought is that we would probably plan for a separate workshop, probably somewhere in Asia, to really concentrate on that
... A lot of issues are there: i18n, fonts, writing modes, etc.
... If things happen the way we dream, then there will be a second workshop

r12a: I would ask then that you mention i18n and your intentions at this workshop

Ivan: We had whole series of topics we were looking at, had to give some a higher priority
... Which doesn't mean we will refuse anything not in those
... We tried to put some priorities on issues, like DRM, that permeates all the industry, but it's not an exclusive list
... But we have to shorten the list a bit

?: Comment on versioning -- there's another session at 1:30 wrt change tracking

?: Wrt multiple versions of documents and changes and sharing them

?: Is this within the scope of your workshop?

mgylling: Wrt pub, versioning is not on the top of the list of problems publishiers want solved today
... but possibility that it is a topic
... EPUB has a rudimentary but functioning versioning system today

TV Ramen: Want to connect dots between produciton workflow and a11y

tv: DAISY and IDPF have done a great job integrating a11y wrt navigating the content
... Solves that part of the problem, but if you go back ...
... There's this concern, this assumption that EPUB3 is just going to be accessible because it's accessible
... There's a risk here, b/c if you look at the workflow that Ivan describes
... EPUB is viewed as a delivery format
... But at the end of the day, how accessible that book is going to be is not just due to the navigability of the format, but by the quality of the book
... They have to make a conscious effort to take the high-level structure and ocnstructs in their XML workflow and push that into the EPUB
... Just because it's EPUB, does not make it accessible

Ivan: ... I didn't realize that before
... This has to be part of the workflow workshop

tv: I keep say this is because when we were young and bright-eyed, we believed that HTML wold just work for a blind person
... And we were disappointed
... I view each EPUB book as a mini-website
... Enormous opportunity there
... But want to make sure we don't say that it's EPUB, it will work
... We need to make an effort for it to work, give publishers the right tools, so that it will work
... If you don't, you will end up with web of today, which is a mess.

mgylling: Yes. Will note that IDPF has been working on this problem
... We have a checklist for content accessibility that will be available within a month
... Allow publishers to learn and to rate their content wrt a11y

??: I think it's wonderful that EPUB is a mini website, but problem is it's min-Web-island

??: It can't interact with the Web, and Web can't interact with it

??: Would like W3C to be involved in augmenting EPUB's work

??: How do you hook an EPUB into portable annotations?

??: Want to interact with online bibliographies, or other forms of metadata

??: Interaction of web island and the rest of the web,

??: That makes this really interesting

mgylling: Agree with what you said, and ??? CG working on that

<rigo> ?? was David Wood, chair of the RDF WG

mgylling: When it comes to linking -- there's no restriction of linking out from EPUB to the Web
... Some retailers restrict, but we can't control that
... Where we need more work, we need inter-EPUB linking
... EPUB doens't have an address
... We tried to solve for EPUB3, but it's extremely complicated so didn't happen

<Zakim> rigo, you wanted to ask about long term archiving

rigo: My main concern is to addres long-term archiving
... We're talking about books. There are books 2000 years old
... How do we imagine that people in 2000 years can read our ebooks?
... My concern is that nothing the industry makes money out of
... it's a public policy concern
... In an environment like this, the commercial considreations prevail, which is normal
... How do we create a strategy that makes publishers care about hits

??: I'm wondering if we can engage the Internet Archive

janina: 2 comments if I may
... Want to tag onto TV Raman's comments about making sure end result really is accessible -- just because HTML not guaranteed it's accessible
... But not just that, need to make sure accessibility is in the entire process
... in the tools in the process
... Authors need accessibility too
... wrt making sure content is still readable in 2000 years, think we have a responsibility for that
... Maybe at some point, DRM expires, maybe put unencrypted in a Library of Congress osmewhere
... There are also accessibility concerns wrt i18n as well
... Kids who learn a foreign language, need to that to be presented in an accessible way
... Several intersections here

glazou: I would like to comment wrt archiving
... We have a few issues there
... Keeping a format for 2000 years is not about keeping the data, but also keeping the readers
... We keep [...] in SGML for 60 years; it's mandatory in this country
... ...
... Internet Archive is not a wealthy organization. We can't depend on them
... Second point is our personal libraries
... We distribute them to our friends, to our children
... when we die, they pass on to next generation
... All this seems to be completely forgotten in electronic books
... industry needs to think about htis
... electronic books cannot be entirely successful if it only replaces the text but does not integrate with also the social habits around books

<r12a> vint cerf is currently studying how to preserve applications along with data for the next 1000 years

fsasaki: Topic of getting metadata which is already in another format, e.g. XML or CMS, getting that out into HTML5-based EPUB format is an area .. a11y and optimization
... We will also touch on this topic ....

<glazou> I would also love to preserve vint cerf himself for the next millenium, r12a ...

fsasaki: standardization .. how to make sure .. HTLM5 content

<bert_> (Keeping the data, keeping the software & hardware, and keeping the cultural context of the time so that future people can understand the meaning...)

fsasaki: please join us at 4 o'clock wrt that

Ivan thanks everyone for participation

and closes the meeting

Meeting closed.

<fsasaki> for the record: we wil discuss topic of getting metadata out of XML or other formats into HTML5 in the multilingual web session 4 p.m. today, if you are interested please join

<karen_> rragent, make minutes

<fsasaki> for the record: 45 people in the session (counted)

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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