<trackbot> Date: 23 August 2012

<ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

<scribe> scribenick: cabanier

SVG2 status

heycam: we were planning on publishing last tuesday but there were some issue
... we tried again on thursday but we had some issues with Chris' color changes. I waiting to hear back from him and we'll probably publish on tuesday
... because we have inline svg and we have mathml
... we needed to change the format of the doc to HTML5 which took a bit of time

cabanier: so we're using mathml?

heycam: I converted a couple of formulas of the painting formulas and some of of the path stuff
... I'm using mathjax
... to provide fallback.
... and around 6 months ago it was decided that mathml was OK
... are you having trouble?

tav: I tried it today and it took me around 20 min

heycam: let me know if you have issues and I'll help you

Lucerne F2F reminder

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Switzerland_2012/Agenda_proposals

ed: there's a page for attending and for proposals

heycam: I think only cyril hasn't replied

SVG Accessibility Gap Analysis

<ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/OF38278C69.E13ACB0C-ON86257A5E.006A2B07-86257A5E.006B7B8B@us.ibm.com

<richardschwerdtfe> Rich

heycam: can I reformat it as text and send it to the list

rich: sure

doug: that will make it easier to search the archives

<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Aug/0105.html

rich: the first part is just about the technology of what happens in the browser
... looking at SVG, we have the gap analysis

<shepazu> (it might be useful to also look at this http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html-aapi-20110414/ )

rich: the reason for the role attribute is to give the system information

(rich: going over the reason we need accessibility in SVG)

rich: we have no keyboard navigation
... the structure of SVG doesn't map to platform accessibility
... the grouping element can be repurposed for that reason
... you can assign semantics to it
... the first svg document alludes that we can do this with the <g> element
... svg rendering don't follow system settings such as high contrast
... does high contrast tie in with the developers?

<heycam> I wonder whether the CSS system colour keywords in conjunction with default colours is sufficient for high constrast support.

rich: panning and zooming inside of a SVG rendering is important too
... do we do something with animations
... we heard that they are being removed?

heycam: no. Brian is working on something new

rich: we want to look into how to make these accessibility
... we should introduce 'role' on elements
... the role attribute on safari and webkit on svg is mapped to the accessibility API
... we could develop more states to ARIA and apply them to SVG
... MS and ??? would like tabindex applied to SVG so you can have keyboard navigation
... do we want to provide the ability to zoom into content that is not visible

doug: what is the behavior of fragment id with zooming and panning?
... the user might not want to zoom in on the bounding box.
... we've talked about the idea of adding tab index to SVG but SVG already has one that is better

<ed> an example of tabbing between nodes in an svg, with panning: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/interact-focus-203-t.svg

<ed> works in opera

rich: so you want both models?

doug: yeah

<ed> (testcase is from the SVG 1.2T testsuite)

rich: that sounds fine. I have to look into again
... but there doesn't seem opposition to adding tab index

heycam: yes, we should have keyboard navigation. Even outside the accessibility use case

ed: do we just want tab behavior or 4/8 way navigation too?
... I'd prefer that whatever we had in tiny keeps working

heycam: we should look into the model

ed: yes, it should be possible to make it work. It makes sense to have it in SVG if it works in HTML

heycam: weren't they going to be added to CSS?

doug: tantek decided not to add the navigation keyword to CSS UI 3 but I don't know why
... tab index is not sufficient for a lot of scenarios. We would have to define how those work together
... for arrow key navigation, the keyword are: up/right/etc
... those are directional navigation elements

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments -- see items 97, 98, 99 -- that covers the navigation properties and HTML's tabindex

doug: you need an algorihtmic way to find out what 'up' means

heycam: item 99 is similar to tabindex, 97 covers nav

rich: so it's resolved to do this feature?

heycam: yes

rich: who is going to do the spec work?

heycam: nobody has signed up for it

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#specifyingnavigation

doug: here's what we have so far
... the only conflict is nav-next and nav-prev
... I will take a look if there's a conflict with tab index. It's an interest of mine

<scribe> ACTION: shepazu is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3341 - Is going to look into conflicts between the model of tab index and navigation [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-30].

doug: I see they're attributes but not properties. We need to talk to the CSS people about that

rich: I''m willing to take an action for the aria and the role attribute

heycam: we already have role in tiny

<ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#RoleAttribute

tav: please provide examples because I tried to do it in the past and there's no documentation out there

doug: I have some!

tav: those are the only ones...

doug: I dropped in a document. This contains a table that has all the ally api's
... I found it really useful

rich: yes, everyone needs to understand what we're doing

resolution: define Role and ARIA states and property attributes in SVG

doug: we want to do the same as HTML did it

rich: we feel that the industry hasn't done enough for accessibility
... with flash going away, we want to look into SVG

heycam: what did flash do?

rich: it doesn't deal with table structure. You can have a group or a panel. The evens are hardcoded to the windows platform

<shepazu> example of SVG table with ARIA http://schepers.cc/svg/accessibility/table.svg

rich: it has no knowledge about rich text.
... they don't have structure content
... it was not that great and Adobe is not investigating it any more
... limited windows support. They wanted to add richer accessibility support but it's not happening

<Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to discuss system colors

doug: what did you mean with system colors?

rich: desktop applications can respond to going to high contrast mode

<shepazu> CSS 3 system colors deprecated http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#css-system

rich: we could add an API for that so the application is notified

doug: I think there's an opportunity for doing this in CSS
... like with a media query
... not just for ally, but various lighting conditions
... or for people that are color blind
... using media queries we can have the document be styled differently

<birtles> CSS luminance media queries http://fremycompany.com/BG/2012/Ambient-light-sensors-and-CSS-Media-Queries-971/ (doesn't support the red-green red-blue thing though)

doug: then designers can provide an alternate representation

tav: do you think designers will do this?

doug: I think there will be aftermarket people will do this redesigns
... designers don't want to do the high contrast page because it doesn't look good

ed: I like Brian's doc

rich: we should go to the CSS WG for the media queries?

all: yes

<scribe> ACTION: richardschwerdtfe to write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3342 - Write up a proposal for role and aria states and properties integration [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2012-08-30].

rich: panning and zooming is something that Kelvin wants
... it would be nice to pan and zoom portions
... of an SVG document

kelvin: you could describe a rectangle to do pan and zoom
... it's not an SVG thing. I'm not sure how the WG can influence this. The Adobe viewer had

ed: it's supported in some other viewers. Not sure if it's well documented in the respective UA's docs how it works

rich: can we put this in the spec?

heycam: it's still in the spec but it hasn't gotten widespread implementation

doug: in the past people wanted to limit the scope that we can influence the UI

<ed> s/it's supported in some other viewers/ctrl+dragging inside an svg for panning, alt+click / shift+alt+click for zooming in and out is supported in some other viewers/

doug: Opera has the zoom slider
... we can try to say that they need to implement some sort of zoom and pan

kelvin: with accessibility we can say that we need it which might force them to add it

rich: should we strengthen the language?

doug: Kelvin, would you want to write up what we need from pan and zoom? so we can feedback from browser vendors

kelvin: yes, I will reread the spec and write something up

<scribe> ACTION: kelvin to write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3343 - Write requirement for zoom and pan for accessibility [on Kelvin Lawrence - due 2012-08-30].

CSS4 <image> as value for <paint>

<ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/FBBDBDBC-F3CD-404E-AFC1-0369A75DAA89@adobe.com

ed: why was this for css4 images and not 3?

cabanier: isn't 3 already in LC? Tab is working on version 4

heycam: so, the element() is in CSS4

cabanier: maybe put it on the agenda again next week

<ed> ed: css3-images is in CR

cabanier: wasn't there also a decision to push off element()
... maybe it was the one that referred to other html chunk

ed: we
... we'll put it on the agenda for next week

<color-profile> element

ed: chris isn't here

heycam: we already decided to remove the font element
... there is no advantage to be able to specify as an element as well as a CSS @ rule

cabanier: that sounds reasonable

heycam: and it wasn't widely implemented

ed: is this tagging the image with a profile?

<ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/color.html#ColorProfileElement

cabanier: it's there so you can give it a link to an ICC profile and give it a name

heycam: and then you can reference the name of the color profile in the paint
... it makes sense just to have the @ rule

ed: I can't think of a reason to have it

heycam: it's just as easy to get to an @ rule through the DOM

resolution: remove the <color-profile> element from the spec

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to remove <color-profile> element from the spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3344 - Remove <color-profile> element from the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-08-30].

ed: any other topics?

heycam: there are some things on the mailing list but we can do that later

nikos: weren't there things that we want Erik's input on?

heycam: one of the items was clipping on filters: before/after/both

nikos: we didn't decide

ed: we discussed it a lot. the current version of the spec picks one of the ways and we discussed doing auto for drop shadows etc

heycam: we have margins too.

ed: we took them out but re-added them for shaders
... I have to look into it again

heycam: dirk should be here to drive the discussion

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07

heycam: this is the discussion

<ed> ACTION: ed to respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3345 - Respond to the filter issues raised in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/09-svg-minutes.html#item07 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-08-30].

<heycam> http://www.w3.org/2012/08/16-svg-minutes.html#item04

ed: I will read these offline and respond

<ed> trackbot, end telcon

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/rule/role/
Succeeded: s/ well documented/ well documented in the respective UA's docs how it works/
WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/it's supported in some other viewers/ctrl+dragging inside an svg for panning, alt+click / shift+alt+click for zooming in and out is supported in some other viewers/
Succeeded: s/the topic next/the agenda for next/
Succeeded: s/I will respond to both offline/I will read these offline and respond/
Found ScribeNick: cabanier
Inferring Scribes: cabanier
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, heycam, Kelvin, Rich, cabanier, Tav, ed, nikos, birtles
Present: Doug_Schepers heycam Kelvin Rich cabanier Tav ed nikos birtles
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JulSep/0167.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 23 Aug 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/23-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ed going heycam is kelvin richardschwerdtfe shepazu

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