Participants are encouraged to complete their individual action items and contribute to group work, including that listed under "Actions for all EOWG" in the Announcements section of the EOWG home page. New action items from this meeting are listed at the end.
For most of this week's meeting we discussed the Accessibility Responsibility Breakdown (ARB) that Denis put in the WAI-Engage wiki. All expressed appreciation for the value of the work. Concern was expressed about organizing by Levels - because some Level AA and AAA are very important for some people, and some are very easy to do. We discussed some ways to organize the tables that place less emphasis on the Level (A, AA, AAA). Sharron and Denis took actions to update the wiki.
Next was discussion of the public reception of the WAI-Engage Community Group. Sharron reported on a meeting with Chair Jennison Assuncion from which there were three main points:
The RDWG Symposium Design is available for comment and contribution. Liam will discuss with Shawn & Shadi.
Finally, Shawn noted that we might not meet on May 18, so it is particularly important to spend time on EOWG work this week so the May 11 meeting is most productive. She reminded everyone to check their individual action items; work on "Actions for all EOWG" in the Announcements section of the EOWG home page; and update your Availability for Upcoming EOWG Teleconferences.
Shawn: Denis, can you bring us up to date on the ARB and the other work you have done?
Denis: Sure, based on roles and responsibilities I see in my work with companies and agencies, I broke down the roles in a typical production chain and assigned specific Success Criteria (SC) to each one.
... that way, everyone has a responsibility for accessibility and the goals are integrated into the entire production cycle.
... the second part is a set of checkpoints for each role. The analysis page includes that breakdown. My thought is that we may reorganize this for people who are not technical.
... each role will have SC and techniques assigned to them. This morning I would like input about the organizational structure. I would like your input about the direction and if it is good or should be changed.
Shawn: Any questions about what this is? To clarify, the decription is an exact transcription of the SC and the benefits is an extraction.
Denis: Yes, that is correct. The idea is to take Techniques next and rewrite in plainer language.
Shawn: Do you have a sense of how the mapping of SC to roles minimizes the volume of information that each role will ahve to think about?
Denis: Yes, I am getting that idea. What I am doing next is to bring it all together since it is now in different places.
... so forexample 3.2.1, the Techniques and failures that are there, I can check which one is relevant for each role. For techniques that are available, the goal is to ensure that each one is mentioned or assigned at least once.
... So for example, giving user notice before opening new window, would be relevant for analysts, designers as well as coders.
... the general idea is to make sure that each of the SC is addressed.
Shawn: I'll be particularly interested to see how much is filtered out based on roles.
... how many of the techniques do I NOT need to look at?
Denis: It is an exercise I have wanted to do for a long time. We will disagree about which ones go in which role and I have no stake in how they are assigned.
... but the powerful thing is that everyone has a stake and it makes a big difference .
Shadi: I find this very interesting and exciting. If I can get a bit more context, Shawn. Is this being discussed in WAI-Engage and what is the relationship to EO?
Denis: It is in WAI-Engage, but there is no real activity there, which is another question. My first idea was to develop within EO but when we started WAI-Engage, we decided it would be a great project and allow input from developers and designers that are not in EO.
... I don't have the credentials to say I am an expert programmer, but this will allow the experts practioners to weigh in.
Shadi: So what then is the relationship to EO?
Shawn: We started it in EO and will bring in back most likely, but wanted to open it for general input.
... when we get to a point that we have more participation, we can promote it.
Shadi: I am in WAI-Engage and would have no notification that it is an open project for comment or participation.
Shawn: One question is how this fits with other EO work. We have considered filtering by role in the past. In order to do that, we would need the definition of what the roles are and what is required for each. This work clearly contributes to that. So then we need to think aobut what is the interface to get to this?
... static web pages? In the Analyst page for example, there are 9 relevant SCs but for most there are many more. Will we need an expand-collapse or other more interactive interface?
... is it still a useful exercise to make these static pages for now and do the interactive mark-up later?
Sharron: Yes, static interface for the purpose of review and comment
<AndrewA> +1 to static page
Shadi: Overall comment, not a critique but we need a lot more thinking about different kinds of projects and the way techniques might breakdown. It is a bit misleading to encourage people to believe that they do not need to look at so much. I can imagine that 1.1.1 would apply more broadly across roles when you have multilingual sites, for example
... I am just offering a caution about not oversimplifying and perhaps add notes about what else you may want to look at or what else might apply depending on your role and how your perspective might change depending on roles.
... there is likely to be quite a blur, not just on which ones apply but also HOW each one relates to each SC.
Denis: It has never occured when I have used this in a real world setting that people take this as written in stone. They redefine the roles and use them as adapted to their own environment.
... it is possible that within a specific project it will be changed. We need the wording to guide people and explain that this is a broad guideline and not meant to be an exact blueprint.
... the fundamental idea is to give people a way to approach accessibility by focussing on their role.
Liam: The concern that different people will come at it from individual perspectives is not necessary, IMO. This is brilliant and can be extremely useful. What is missing is the idea that however one SC is distributed, there should be one role that "owns" and champions each one.
Liam: the disclaimer will be very easy to write. The idea that it is general and if a role is missing, those items will have to be parceled out.
Shadi: I agree that it is a great document, but you are experts and in the hands of experts this will be very useful. My concern is misleading people who are new to this.
Sharron:agree that we need to be clear in our guidance, but should not be extrmely be difficult. The value and improtance outweighs that concern in my opinion.
Sharron: it is a great way to introduce the whole team to accessibility and should be helpful rather than discouraging with the cuationary language.
<AndrewA> Canadian Govt - http://alpha.gcwwwtemplates.tbs-sct.ircan.gc.ca/theme-gcwu-fegc/accessRespBreakdo wn-eng.html
Andrew: We have been working with this idea and it helps demystify the SC. Have found it is useful to develop primary and secondary responsibility to each particular aspect.
... we have found they get their heads around accessibility much more easily.
Shawn: OK, so we are creating these roles, and assigning a primary "owner" for each one. Would that be useful to do now or go back and add later?
<AndrewA> also been talking with Lisa Herrod (http://scenarioseven.com.au/) who is also working on roles breakdowns
Denis: I want to do it now and would be tempted to add an overview of the SC base on the table that Andrew linked to.
Shawn: Once you get that done, should we send an explicit message to WAI-Engage asking questions about these 11 roles. A questions like "Are these a complete set of roles, etc" to encourage discussion.
Denis: I would love to have that discussion and encourage people who fill those roles to contribute.
... we could possibly break down the development role into front end, back end , user experience, etc.
... I am having some thoughts about where to put quality control. I have not found a way to include it. My thought is that there is a check list for QA at every level of the production life cycle.
... so that at every level of QA, accessibility is one of the sign-off points.
Shawn: As soon as you are comfortable, send a couple of general and maybe some very specific questions asking for input.
... to WAI-Engage. Some will comment on parts rather than being able to review the entire document.
Sharron: Maybe we can help?
Denis: I am comfortable with others doing outreach and if someone has time to do that it will be very helpful.
... People may have the impression that this is a polished work which is exactly not true. It has reached a certain level of maturity but I need to be challenged on some of it. People may take and use it, customize for thier own environement but not provide feedback.
... I would so much like to get input from people who are working in that role.
Sharron: Wanted to check in if others of us started the conversation, if that is OK?
Denis: I have seen the document in action and know that it is useful. But comments will only make it better.
<scribe> ACTION: Sharron to post specific outreach and questions to the WAI-Engage group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05 /04-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about separating by levels
Shawn: Separating by levels of compliance A, AA, AAA
... it is a primary organizational priciple here, is it useful?
Denis: I did it by Level because I have never worked with anyone who uses AAA, so it seemed to make sense.
... we do not openly claim a level but in fact, we work to Level AA with a couple of items from AAA
Andrew: In Australia, we use AA as well but include some aspects of AAA depending on the project. Once benefit is to allow people ease of entry and understanding that they do not need to meet all 61 but can start with maybe half a dozen.
Shawn: A minor point is that color/contrast for example looking at them together makes more sense. Another point however is that we should be strongly encouraging people to meet A and AA and also to do the easy parts of AAA. Separating them out makes it easy to simply dismiss even the easy parts of AAA.
Sharron: What is the alternative?
Shawn: Organize by principle or Guideline
<shawn> highlight by level?
Denis: If we look at different ways to see these things, there are many interesting ways to look at.
... once we have more complete data, we can determine how to create the filter and customize in different aspects.
Shawn: May want to be able to filter by levels rather than having Levels be THE organizing structure.
Sharron: Yes that makes sense
Denis: Is your concern that people will only do Level A?
Shawn: Well, if I am a person for whom AAA items are very important, it feels discriminatory.
Denis: My perspective is one from the organizational aspect. But of course from EO perspective we should be advocating for full inclusion.
... OK now I realize that we need to structure to reflect EO philosophy.
Shawn: It is nice to have things grouped. How about for the static version, we organize by POUR principle and have the Level in a column.
Denis: You want me to change that the data is broken down by principle rather than Level?
Andrew: I like the principles as an organiztional structure.
Shawn: I am fine with having Level be the first or second column, but must consider screen reader order.
Denis: Most important thing is to provide the various roles with a place to start and enter the SC and focus on the items that are relevant to their own work. As people who perform this role engage with this, it will be refined.
Sharron: So you will do the Analysis table and we will use it as a template?
Denis: Yes, and you can provide support as the data is compiled by me.
Andrew: It would be nice to group related (easy) AAA near the AA SC so people can see how easy to meet AAA in some cases.
... As we are thinking on how to restructure the table, can we also add some rationale about why the particular role should take interest or prime responsibility?
Shawn: We should be clear about the difference between direct language from the SC and what is added, interpreted language
Denis: It will be a long battle to get this done so that everyone is comfortable with the language.
<scribe> ACTION: Denis to make template of analysis table. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05 /04-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Shawn: And should reach out to Lisa Herrod
... Looking at the Main page of the ARB. Thought about number of SC and wondered how to make it more useful. Organizing by Principle would allow us to list the number of SC related to each.
... thanks TONS, Denis.
Shawn: Don't know how useful to have discussion now as opposed to waiting for Jennison.
Sharron: I sent note about early discussion this week. Could discuss the points he raised.
Shawn: The points were lack of participation in people signing up; lack of activity among those who did sign up; and option for a re-launch.
... perception of bureaucracy and trouble signing.
Andrew: It might help to say "You will go throguh these multi-stage steps"
Shawn: I agree that it must be explained. When you get to the group there's a big sign up for this group button and THEN you find out that you need to create an account.
... so I think if we make more messaging (what Jennison called a re-launch)
... and address the agreement that you have to sign. Some aspects are to let people know what is, why. Maybe make a two part, one with the legalese and one with a summary.
Sharron: I can put some language on the main page of the wiki.
... need some guidance
Shawn: Would you be willing, Andrew to reply and say that it not welcoming and encouraging to join community groups?
... Sharron, if you can start something in the wiki, let me know.
... next is the lack of participation among those who are signed on. That is much of what we spoke about today and these outreach efforts may be helpful. Don't want to duplicate posting to WAI interest group list, although don't want to cross post as a common thing.
... now have three up there - ARB, Promoting web accessibility, and Virtual AccessCamp.
Andrew: Promoting Web Accessibility seems like a great place to post Global accessibility day.
Shawn: It is blank right now, let's try to get people to post something.
Andrew: With context? who they are and where they used this?
Shawn: Yes, people should get credit for their contributions.
... Sylvie or Liam, can you put a couple of items. Tips and tricks, something to seed and help the conversation bloom.
Liam: May I suggest a "have you forgotten your password" link on the sign-in form as well?
Shawn: On main page, we have Virtual Access Camp which is big, broad and unclear. Maybe switch the order?
Andrew: Promoting first, everyone potentially has something to contribute, then ARB, then Virtual AccessCamp
Denis: Leonie Watson and I have been speaking for a while about doing the access-a-thon and may relate to Virtual Access Camp
...the idea is to have 24 hours of accessiiblity presentations online around the world. We will miss Global Accessibility Awareness day this year bu maybe next. Wither her permission I will bring it to the Virtual AccessCamp.
Shawn: Comments by email please
... Shadi do you have someone lined up to do the work or do we still need a designer?
Shadi: Yes, we still need someone.
Liam: Delivery date?
Shadi: Within the next week or two
... will have drafts, have about a month to work on design.
Shawn: Update them please
Shawn: May not meet on the 18th so next weeks meeting is important. please plan to send time on EOWG work next week.
... adjourn, thanks all good weekend
<dboudreau> bye all, sharron i'll try to send you an email this afternoon
[NEW] ACTION: Denis to make template of analysis table. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05 /04-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Sharron to post specific outreach and questions to the WAI-Engage group [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/05 /04-eo-minutes.html#action01]
ACTION for ALL: Update your Availability for Upcoming EOWG Teleconferences
[End of minutes]