See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 14 March 2012
<pchampin> stuck in my previous meeting, can not dial in for the moment, sorry
<danbri> regrets from me; on a trip
i'll scribe.
<scribe> scribe: alexhall
guus: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon
RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon
<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
sandro: nobody here has open
action item
... (aside from guus and sandro, and these aren't done).
guus: reminder, 1 hour earlier for europeans next week, then back to regular schedule
<ericP> ISSUE-67: \xxxx escaping in prefixed names
<trackbot> ISSUE-67 \xxxx escaping in prefixed names notes added
guus: would like to close issue 67 before moving on
<gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
eric: text has been committed to
hg
... believe this text addresses that by saying \uxxxx is a
numeric escape, and that these are allowed in IRIs but not in
other places
<AndyS> Strings?
guus: add link to minutes where we discussed this in the issue notes, close the issue
gavin: we do allow numeric escapes in strings, this disagrees with the text
eric: history is that richard didn't want escapes in prefix names, claimed it needlessly complicated things
<AndyS> SPARQL allows \u in strings (and local parts for that matter). Must keep strings.
eric: thought we agreed to eliminate escapes from prefix names to align with SPARQL
andy: unicode numeric escapes
allowed in IRIs, strings, local part of prefix names in
SPARQL
... they are needed in IRIs and strings to account for
N-Triples
<gavinc> AlexHall: I thought the original disagreement was to allow numeric escapes in prefix names. I thought we agreed not to do that, but allow the reserved char escapes.
<AndyS> As of today's grammar update \u is not permitted in SPARQL local names.
<gavinc> AlexHall: I thought we'd agreed that numeric escapes should not be allowed in local names
andy: preference is to allow numeric escapes in IRIs and strings for SPARQL
<gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar
sandro: are qnames/prefixed names allowed in n-triples?
gavin: no, they are not, but part
of the grammar is in there as bnode labels
... use cases for having numeric escapes in IRI/string literals
is to support people with ASCII-only editors
... and to support existing documents to be used unchanged
<sandro> I'm surprised to see \\ is not a reserved character escape sequence.
<PatH> Apologies for lateness, dialling in ASAP.
alexhall: the turtle grammar does not match the sparql grammar for prefixed names
<sandro> PatH, no worries, we just talking about character escaping in Turtle at the moment.
<PatH> Oh then I might just go back to bed...
<sandro> +0 either way is fine with me
guus: think we've talked enough about this, can we go ahead and make a proposal?
<gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Names
<sandro> PatH, I think we're almost done, the'll we'll be ready to argue with you.
<sandro> +0 either way is fine with me
<ericP> +0 want consensus
<gavinc> +1 for text agreeing with grammar
RESOLVED01: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Name
<gavinc> ACTION gavinc to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - gavinc
<gavinc> ACTION Gavin to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names
<trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
guus: moving on to issue 74, that seemed to be mostly editorial?
eric: yes, andy gavin and i talked and came to consensus
<AndyS> I changed SPARQL draft today. (Please check.)
<gavinc> ACTION Gavin to update issue 74 with new escaping rules
<trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Update issue 74 with new escaping rules [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
guus: next issue...
<gavinc> ACTION Gavin Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names
<trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
<sandro> ericP, the link you want now works: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-03-14#resolution_1
guus: revisiting issue from last
week (n-triples)
... andy proposed a way forward last week
gavin: most of this proposal is reflected in the current editors draft, so i like it
<gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/c43ac715dde2/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-triples
guus: would like comment from the oracle people. have they had a chance to review it?
zwu2: have been busy with customers, no chance to review it
<scribe> ACTION: zhe to review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it. [on Zhe Wu - due 2012-03-21].
<zwu2> thanks guus
guus: let's look at planning for Turtle LC
<pchampin> what's the deadline?
guus: andy indicated willingness
to review Turtle draft for last call. any other
volunteers?
... editors, what is a reasonable deadline for reviewers?
eric: Trying to think of changes. There's removal of \u escapes from prefix names
gavin: change to reference
ourselves for n-triples definition
... change grammar to reflect text per today's resolution
... editorial changes that Andy collected in an email
... do we need issues for all of these?
eric: think we can edit as needed to address these items before review, once it's reviewed we need wg consensus
<PatH> what?
gavin: another issue is case-insensitivity of boolean true/false
<PatH> ah.
<gavinc> ACTION Gavin Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false
<trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
guus: don't see this noted anywhere, need to track it
gavin: can somebody confirm that we've covered all feedback from comments mailing list?
guus: i think we have tracked all that, we can go back and verify in parallel with group review
gavin: what are we writing changes relative to?
guus: since no previous standard, use original wg note as a reference point
eric: did we decide that true/false are case-insensitive?
gavin: sparql says that they are case insensitive, but grammar isn't
<PatH> sound of head exploding?
<ericP> sound of infinite recursion?
<PatH> lol
guus: i'm happy with anything you guys agree on
<AndyS> skype bug is attempting to take over all my machine
gavin: trying to agree on grammar keyword, but in either case they will map to canonical (lower-case) "true" or "false" for the actual literal value
eric: correct
guus: is 2 weeks realistic for a review?
gavin: 2 weeks should be ok
guus: have draft available in 2
weeks, then give reviewers another 2 weeks to respond after
that
... sound ok to editors?
<ericP> AndyS1, would you prefer that the keywords were case-sensitive or insensitive?
<pchampin> ok, count me in as a reviewer
guus: let's make this our
tentative schedule. mar 28 draft available, discuss reviews at
apr 11 telecon
... andy and pierre-antoine, would be best if reviews available
by apr 9
<AndyS> Not sure it's a big deal - compatibility for SPARQL is insensitive but not sure it happens in the wild much (indeed even using true/false at all)
<scribe> ACTION: gavin to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
<scribe> ACTION: eric to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-03-21].
<scribe> ACTION: andy to review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-157 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-03-21].
01ACTION: pchampin to review Turtle LC draft by April 9
scribe: discuss testing approach
in the coming weeks
... hope to have document published by end of april
<scribe> ACTION: pchampin to review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Pierre-Antoine Champin - due 2012-03-21].
guus: SPARQL wg coordination -- think we're ok on this
<PatH> im getting bad sound here.
guus: pat sent out note on contexts, can we take a few minutes to ask clarification questions?
<PatH> sound ok now
guus: in the 3 cases,
particularly case 2 where dataset has time of context
... my reply was that this is orthogonal to case 3. is this
correct?
pat: they can't coexist casually. if you think of the 4th column IRI as a label in a graph store, in case 3 the IRI denotes the graph, in case 2 the IRI denotes the context
<PatH> i forgive you already
guus: other questions about
this?
... if not, would like to give pat the floor to discuss latest
message
<AZ> Pat's last long email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0086.html
pat: the latest email was a sort
of epiphany about this whole thing -- whether the scope of IRI
labels should be local to a graph or global to the web,
etc.
... both sides seem blindingly obvious to their
proponents
... think of RDF as have always been a context logic all along,
where the context was implicit
... i.e. there was a global RDF context but we never actually
acknowledged it
... suggest that we make this explicit in RDF, with the
assumption that if a context is not explicitly named it's
assumed to be the global RDF context
... allows authors to fix their data in a hierarchy of
contexts
... this suits the cyc approach, which has been doing this for
a while
<zwu2> I like the idea of importing another context
pat: also works well with
owl:imports, sort of importing another context
... can add this machinery to RDF by modifying the semantics
and syntax, with datasets as the syntax
... allow people to grow this global network of contexts
... supports andy's notion of islands and allows people to
explicitly link their islands to participate in other
contexts
... seems to give us a good story to tell on how it all links
together
... and is an extension of the current RDF, not a modification
of it
az: pat, you say we could
integrate in RDF semantics the notion of context. couldn't we
just keep RDF as it is, a context-less logic & data model,
and define another contextual data model
... people would explicitly opt into it if they don't want the
context-less RDF
pat: yes, we could do that. would
like to give people a way to publish data in a context and
provide the machinery for people to explicitly declare their
context
... could certainly be done in two layers as you say
az: if it's all one layer and you publish something in a context, don't you run into issues of contexts of contexts, quints, etc?
pat: had the same worry, but there's a way to stop that from happening.
guus: if i look at your trig,
everything except the first line is the same as what others
have suggested
... but what's the point of the rdf:DatasetMeta in the first
line?
pat: the IRI identifies a context. an IRI can both name something but also reference a context.
<Arnaud> did he just say "meta context"??
pat: rdf:DatasetMeta is a special IRI that allows us to denote the actual context, and refer to it in other places as the actual context
<AZ> this makes sense to me
pat: addresses the issue where people want to use the 4th column as a context but have it denote something else (a person, etc)
sandro: so far this sounds encouraging. a lot more details to work out.
guus: yes, many more details. would like to work out some examples.
sandro: the term that you use for
importing something, is this actually asserting something to be
true?
... can you use this to make statements about the truth of the
stuff in a context?
<LeeF> consistent
<LeeF> ?
<zwu2> compatible contexts?
pat: i think of this more as an endorsement or agreement.
<Arnaud> re: meta context, I hope we're only talking about one level of context
pat: phrasing it in terms of absolute truth is a bit misleading. seems like you want to claim that something is globally true, which seems counter to the point of all this
sandro: but if i'm in a context and i say something is true, the truth of that can't be any stronger than my own context
pat: exactly. we want to avoid the perception that we're trying to state something as globally true.
sandro: what about the school of thought that if you're using a URI, you're accepting the document named by that URI? is that OK to do here?
pat: I'm aware of that
convention. but it often doesn't work. you could think of it as
an implicit version of what i'm trying to make explicit
here.
... you could encourage as good practice that if you use a URI,
you're accepting as true the contexts mentioned by that
document.
guus: at the end of the telecon time. would like to see more email conversation on this, especially about how it relates to the example use cases.
<zwu2> bye
guus: adjourned.
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