See also: IRC log
<Luc> are you back?
<trackbot> Date: 12 January 2012
<jun> Yes! Glad to be back! First week back at work!
<Luc> only a few thousand messages to catch up with ;-)
<jun> @luc: thanks
<jun> @luc, yep:)
<satya> I can scribe
<pgroth> Scribe: Daniel
<pgroth> Scribe Daniel Garijo
although I have a bad sound quality today :(
Paul: as usual, vote on the minutes of last week
<pgroth> Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-01-05
<pgroth> Accepted Minutes January 5 2012
Paul: review of actions
... 1) Action on Paul to write a blog on overview
... about the PROV activities
Paul: Luc had an action item to
write a blog post with the diffs
... Satya had an action to look at a number of issues
Satya: I have been working on it
Paul: please sign on the f2f page
so I can make the appropriate arrangements
... we need scribes
Paul: gk tried to address a
number of issues
... made a review and a bunch of editorial clarifications
Paul: question about xml
examples. Do we want them? where should they come in?
... ??? suggested pingback to know when the provenance has been recorded
Paul: paul has to still to review the changes to see if completely agrees with it
Paul: update on issues in
... most of the issues have been raised/resolved.
Luc: we have to group the issues.
105 is still open.
... will follow up a response
<satya> @Luc, yes I am now reviewing the updates in DM and will respond to these issues soon
Luc: tomorrow morning will start another pass on the document to prepare it for review by the next telecon
<Luc> @satya, thanks
Luc: please satya review the pending issues
paul: are this already in your action?
Luc: no. That action is from several weeks ago
<AndroUser> the "vacant" conference bridge is fighting me
paul: satya, replace the action with a new one.
<pgroth> ACTION: Satya to address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/12-prov-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Address issues in http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.01.05#prov-dm [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-01-19].
<satya> Meeting minutes from last PROV-O call: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2012-01-09
satya: dgarijo has created a list
of issues, and we have been resolving them
... still have 3 main bullets to complete the list.
... we have been recording the changes to make in the doc
... some issues have been raised.
<Luc> can you indicate what requires discussion with dm?
satya: you'll see the changes to the html doc soon (next telecon)
Luc: can you identify what are the issues to be discused within dm?
<satya> Meeting minutes PROV_O: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology_Meeting_2011-12-29
satya: some concerns about making wasStartedBy and wasEndedBy subclasses of wasAssociatedWith
Stephan: some classes seem to be modeling things with different semantics. Also actedOnBehalfOf
luc: some of the issues could be
raised as issues against prov-o
... none of the editors will be at f2f
<khalidbelhajjame> I ll be there
<tlebo> I'll be calling in to F2F2.
satya: some of the authors are going to attend: Daniel, Stian, Khalid
<AndroUser> not tim?
paul: so, in summary, you will be raising issues against dm soon.
jcheney: I've been updating
... answered some emails
... diference between the 3 level and 2 level ???
jcheney: what the alternatives are about this issue
luc: this could be raised as an issue against the semantics
jcheney: will do that
satya: Ithink the distinction between entities and real world entities is very important
<stian> +1 to satua
satya: the real world things have no relevance in our context
<Paolo> @satya: not relevant for the language, but important distinction for the semantics!
<Paolo> so "things" are not part of the description, but we are talking about the semantics here, i.e., the interpretaion of the language constructs
luc: From the beggining we made a distinction between the record and the real world thing. Thus it is part of dm
<satya> @Paolo: In our context that is any computer science application - there are no real world things
@satya: what about the provenance of Mona Lisa? That is a real world thing..
Paolo: we're not talking about provenance within a specific system.
<stian> @dharijo no, you are talking about a characterisaton
<satya> @Daniel: No, the "Mona Lisa" in any application is a representation/abstraction of the real world thing - the real world thing is never part of any computer science application
paul: maybe we can pick this at the end of the call
<stian> is it the painting? the model?
@stian, satya: ok
<stian> (have to go now)
luc: will try to catch up with the tracker.
jcheney: we have to identify
where are we going to find this at the time of the f2f (next 2
... alternate of, specialization of semantics.
paul: when do you like people to read the document?
jcheney: people can look at it now and provide feedback
<Paolo> sorry I have to go...
<satya> I will review
pgroth: paul, satya are volunteers.
tlebo: I haven't had a chance to answer all the people yet
tlebo: if anibody has something right now it will be ok
khalid: how entities are
differentiated in different accounts
... it's more a practical point of view.
tim: TRIG syntax is a bit
confusing in those examples.
... how can we have this scoped entities without the dcterms:identifiers.
khalid: so you think there could be problems having different entities scoped in different accounts
<satya> @Tim: +1, also having scoped identifiers (aka URI) is contrary to RDF semantics and global scope of URIs
khalid: how do I identify an entity across different accounts.
Tim. the same URI is mentioned in both named graphs.
scribe: there is no requirement that the inner accounts have to be mentioned in the outer accounts
paul: are you having problems with ids in dm?
tim: maybe I'm misreading ids in dm
luc: your interpretation is
... I'm not sure that we have the same understanding of record
tim: in the rdf world a reocrd is a triple or an rdf graph.
<satya> @Luc, what are the columns of these tables - Entity, Agent, wasGeneratedBy?
luc: that would be rooted in a
... if we have an entity Luc in Boston type person type entity, everything would be rooted from that.
MacTed: a record in my mind is a single row in a database. In the rdf world is a triple
luc: a record in dm is a set of triples in the rdf context
<zednik> noun |ˈrekərd|
<zednik> 1 a thing constituting a piece of evidence about the past, esp. an account of an act or occurrence kept in writing or some other permanent form: identification was made through dental records | a record of meter readings.
MacTed: so you're changing the
understanding of record that is different in many areas.
... I keep going in circles
... the common terms are not used according to their common meanings.
luc: I disagree
... nobody has suggested an alternative to this terms
<zednik> database terminology is not common term usage
satya: if an entity is mapped to a table, what would be the columns of the table?
luc: activity, sart, end,
<tlebo> it's sounding like "expression" _was_ a better term (the original "record"). What motivated the rename?
luc: satya, how are you suggesting to express that?
<MacTed> :LucInBoston :wasWearing :whiteShirt
satya: Luc in Boston is an entity
<tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white"])
satya: discussion about the Luc in Boston entity.
<Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color "white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])
<Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="white", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])
satya: I was trying to understand what an entity record mean. Luc in Boston has type person would be an entity record
Luc: I've extended what tim just
... you would map this to a series of triples
... entity record seems to map to a set of triples
satya: this is an example of relational db to rdf
luc: I'm not reinventing the world
luc: I've posted the diagram of the document. That is how it would be recorded in a relational world
satya: it is an assertion about luc in boston. It is an important distinction to make
<tlebo> I'm wondering what motivation we had to rename "expression" to "record".
<tlebo> +1 to satya pointing out the confusion of identifying the record or the characterized thing
<tlebo> @luc, thanks.
luc: I'd like to explain what paulo and paul have been discussing. There are some inconsistencies in dm and we're trying to resolve them.
<tlebo> luc: too much "language association" and was inappropriate.
<MacTed> so, "entity record" is a collection of (one or more) assertions about an entity...
<MacTed> (and an "entity record" is an entity in its own right, with assertions about it, etc.)
<MacTed> some of the assertions about the "entity record" comprise the provenance of that record
luc: every record has an id
<GK> +1 to Satya too (the "record" is artifact of ASN; shouldn't have representation in RDF translation)
satya: no, every entity has an id
<GK> What Luc is now describing is artifact of "the relational view" i.e. an implementation detail for *some* implementations.
paul: let luc describe the problem, and we try to solve it offline
luc: coming back what satya was
... luc in boston in my view is not the key of the record.
@tlebo: thanks, sorry.
<Luc> entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])
<Luc> entity id + account id = natural key for entity record
<satya> exactly - so luc_in_boston is key for Entity "Luc in Boston"
scribe: luc in boston could have different color of tshirts, but it would be the same entity
<satya> not the record
<tlebo> luc: white and black shirt on same :luc_in_boston
<satya> @Luc, then we need a distinct identifier for the record itself
<Luc> entity_reocrd_id001: entity(:luc_in_boston, [:shirt_color="black", :name="Luc", :type="Person"])
scribe: an approach to this is to have an entity record Id that would be the key for that record. Now I would need an extra column
<satya> @Luc: ok
scribe: if we do that, that's
<GK> @satya - isn't the record its own identifier?
scribe: we can simplify a lot of the text
<tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Monday, [shirt_color="black", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])
<MacTed> "Named Graph" :-)
<tlebo> entity(:luc_in_boston_on_Tuesday, [shirt_color="white", location=Boston, name="luc", specializationOf=:luc_in_boston_in_July])
<Luc> entity id + account id = natural key for entity record
scribe: but from the rdf perspective may not be nice. It would imply new ids
<satya> @Luc: the natural key for entity record is something different from key for entity
<tlebo> @luc, but that throws the benefits of URIs out the window (and violates AWWW)
<satya> @GK: I didn't understand
<GK> I think we are trying to turn ASn "records" into implementation artifacts, when they are explicitly an *abstract* syntax for talking about provenance assertions.
<MacTed> G-box would give the ontology of the accounts (i.e., the schema of the "entity records")
<MacTed> G-snaps would be the account ("entity record") instances
<MacTed> G-texts are the serializations of those instances
paul: the issue is clear.
tim: trying to respond to Luc about naming the resource within the account.
luc: luc in Boston is the name of the entity.
MacTed: so the entity could have
1 million URIs, identifiers, names
... and be referring to the same thing
<GK> Why does ASN use URIs anyway?
MacTed: problem on discovering other descriptions of the same entity the first time that I'm going to describe it. How do I know that there are others?
luc: the uri luc in boston is not
enough to identify the records
... that is why you need to know which account belongs to
<tlebo> @luc, then you mistakenly named luc in account 2.
<Luc> @tlebo, why?
<tlebo> @luc, you knew that they are different, but named them the same thing.
satya: adding the acocunt id + the record does not make it an ? entity record?
<Luc> @tlebo, no, it's intentional, I am giving two hypothesis about what luc did
luc: raising issues might be the best thing
<pgroth> trackbot, end telecon
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