RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 14 March 2012

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, Dan Brickley, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Lee Feigenbaum, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Alex Hall
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon link
  2. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Name link
Topics
14:56:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-irc

14:56:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:56:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:56:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:47 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:47 <trackbot> Date: 14 March 2012
14:57:31 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:57:32 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aaaa

14:57:39 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

14:57:45 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aaaa is me

14:57:45 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

14:58:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:58:05 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

14:58:13 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

14:58:13 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

14:59:22 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

14:59:22 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it

15:00:03 <Zakim> +Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud

15:00:44 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:00:52 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

15:00:52 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:01:37 <Zakim> + +1.213.271.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.213.271.aacc

15:01:48 <AZ> zakim, aacc is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, aacc is me

15:01:52 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:02:35 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud, AlexHall, Guus, AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud, AlexHall, Guus, AZ

15:02:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, pchampin, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, pchampin, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1, sandro, ericP

15:03:28 <pchampin> stuck in my previous meeting, can not dial in for the moment, sorry

Pierre-Antoine Champin: stuck in my previous meeting, can not dial in for the moment, sorry

15:03:46 <Zakim> +??P41

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41

15:03:53 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P41 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P41 is me

15:03:56 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:04:57 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:05:48 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:05:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

15:06:31 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:06:39 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:06:39 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:06:45 <danbri> regrets from me; on a trip

Dan Brickley: regrets from me; on a trip

15:07:09 <AlexHall> i'll scribe.

Alex Hall: i'll scribe.

15:07:34 <AlexHall> scribe: alexhall

(Scribe set to Alex Hall)

15:07:45 <AlexHall> topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:08:30 <AlexHall> guus: PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon

Guus Schreiber: PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon

15:08:31 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink]

15:08:39 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me

15:08:39 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:08:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:08:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:08:43 <AlexHall> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon

RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon

15:09:52 <AlexHall> topic: Action Item review

2. Action Item review

15:10:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:10:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

15:10:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted)

15:10:57 <AlexHall> sandro: nobody here has open action item

Sandro Hawke: nobody here has open action item

15:11:37 <AlexHall> ... (aside from guus and sandro, and these aren't done).

... (aside from guus and sandro, and these aren't done).

15:11:39 <Zakim> +cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer

15:12:02 <AlexHall> guus: reminder, 1 hour earlier for europeans next week, then back to regular schedule

Guus Schreiber: reminder, 1 hour earlier for europeans next week, then back to regular schedule

15:12:05 <AlexHall> topic: Turtle

3. Turtle

15:12:37 <ericP>  ISSUE-67: \xxxx escaping in prefixed names

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ISSUE-67: \xxxx escaping in prefixed names

15:12:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 \xxxx escaping in prefixed names notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-67 \xxxx escaping in prefixed names notes added

15:13:16 <AlexHall> guus: would like to close issue 67 before moving on

Guus Schreiber: would like to close ISSUE-67 before moving on

15:13:38 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes

Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes

15:13:49 <AlexHall> eric: text has been committed to hg

Eric Prud'hommeaux: text has been committed to hg

15:13:52 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:14:18 <AlexHall> ... believe this text addresses that by saying \uxxxx is a numeric escape, and that these are allowed in IRIs but not in other places

... believe this text addresses that by saying \uxxxx is a numeric escape, and that these are allowed in IRIs but not in other places

15:14:59 <AndyS> Strings?

Andy Seaborne: Strings?

15:15:04 <AlexHall> guus: add link to minutes where we discussed this in the issue notes, close the issue

Guus Schreiber: add link to minutes where we discussed this in the issue notes, close the issue

15:16:26 <AlexHall> gavin: we do allow numeric escapes in strings, this disagrees with the text

Gavin Carothers: we do allow numeric escapes in strings, this disagrees with the text

15:17:16 <AlexHall> eric: history is that richard didn't want escapes in prefix names, claimed it needlessly complicated things

Eric Prud'hommeaux: history is that richard didn't want escapes in prefix names, claimed it needlessly complicated things

15:17:18 <AlexHall> q+

q+

15:17:22 <AndyS> SPARQL allows \u in strings (and local parts for that matter).  Must keep strings.

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL allows \u in strings (and local parts for that matter). Must keep strings.

15:18:08 <AlexHall> ... thought we agreed to eliminate escapes from prefix names to align with SPARQL

... thought we agreed to eliminate escapes from prefix names to align with SPARQL

15:18:33 <AlexHall> andy: unicode numeric escapes allowed in IRIs, strings, local part of prefix names in SPARQL

Andy Seaborne: unicode numeric escapes allowed in IRIs, strings, local part of prefix names in SPARQL

15:19:06 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:19:35 <AlexHall> ... they are needed in IRIs and strings to account for N-Triples

... they are needed in IRIs and strings to account for N-Triples

15:19:43 <Guus> ack AlexHall

Guus Schreiber: ack AlexHall

15:20:27 <gavinc> AlexHall: I thought the original disagreement was to allow numeric escapes in prefix names. I thought we agreed not to do that, but allow the reserved char escapes.

Alex Hall: I thought the original disagreement was to allow numeric escapes in prefix names. I thought we agreed not to do that, but allow the reserved char escapes. [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

15:21:41 <AndyS> As of today's grammar update \u is not permitted in SPARQL local names.

Andy Seaborne: As of today's grammar update \u is not permitted in SPARQL local names.

15:21:52 <gavinc> AlexHall: I thought we'd agreed that numeric escapes should not be allowed in local names

Alex Hall: I thought we'd agreed that numeric escapes should not be allowed in local names [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

15:22:42 <AlexHall> andy: preference is to allow numeric escapes in IRIs and strings for SPARQL

Andy Seaborne: preference is to allow numeric escapes in IRIs and strings for SPARQL

15:22:54 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar

PROPOSED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar

15:23:54 <AlexHall> sandro: are qnames/prefixed names allowed in n-triples?

Sandro Hawke: are qnames/prefixed names allowed in n-triples?

15:24:21 <AlexHall> gavin: no, they are not, but part of the grammar is in there as bnode labels

Gavin Carothers: no, they are not, but part of the grammar is in there as bnode labels

15:24:59 <AlexHall> ... use cases for having numeric escapes in IRI/string literals is to support people with ASCII-only editors

... use cases for having numeric escapes in IRI/string literals is to support people with ASCII-only editors

15:25:30 <AlexHall> ... and to support existing documents to be used unchanged

... and to support existing documents to be used unchanged

15:26:35 <sandro> I'm surprised to see \\ is not a reserved character escape sequence.

Sandro Hawke: I'm surprised to see \\ is not a reserved character escape sequence.

15:27:10 <PatH> Apologies for lateness, dialling in ASAP.

Patrick Hayes: Apologies for lateness, dialling in ASAP.

15:27:32 <AlexHall> alexhall: the turtle grammar does not match the sparql grammar for prefixed names

Alex Hall: the turtle grammar does not match the sparql grammar for prefixed names

15:27:37 <sandro> PatH, no worries, we just talking about character escaping in Turtle at the moment.

Sandro Hawke: PatH, no worries, we just talking about character escaping in Turtle at the moment.

15:28:10 <PatH> Oh then I might just go back to bed...

Patrick Hayes: Oh then I might just go back to bed...

15:28:28 <sandro> +0 either way is fine with me

Sandro Hawke: +0 either way is fine with me

15:28:32 <AlexHall> guus: think we've talked enough about this, can we go ahead and make a proposal?

Guus Schreiber: think we've talked enough about this, can we go ahead and make a proposal?

15:28:40 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Names

PROPOSED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Names

15:28:49 <sandro> PatH, I think we're almost done, the'll we'll be ready to argue with you.

Sandro Hawke: PatH, I think we're almost done, the'll we'll be ready to argue with you.

15:28:52 <sandro> +0 either way is fine with me

Sandro Hawke: +0 either way is fine with me

15:28:58 <ericP> +0 want consensus

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +0 want consensus

15:29:19 <gavinc> +1 for text agreeing with grammar

Gavin Carothers: +1 for text agreeing with grammar

15:29:59 <AlexHall> RESOLVED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Name

RESOLVED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Name

15:30:34 <gavinc> ACTION gavinc to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names

Gavin Carothers: ACTION gavinc to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names

15:30:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - gavinc

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - gavinc

15:30:40 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names

Gavin Carothers: ACTION Gavin to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names

15:30:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-150 - Fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

15:31:18 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:31:21 <AlexHall> guus: moving on to issue 74, that seemed to be mostly editorial?

Guus Schreiber: moving on to ISSUE-74, that seemed to be mostly editorial?

15:31:37 <AlexHall> eric: yes, andy gavin and i talked and came to consensus

Eric Prud'hommeaux: yes, andy gavin and i talked and came to consensus

15:31:38 <AndyS> I changed SPARQL draft today.  (Please check.)

Andy Seaborne: I changed SPARQL draft today. (Please check.)

15:31:44 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to update issue 74 with new escaping rules

Gavin Carothers: ACTION Gavin to update ISSUE-74 with new escaping rules

15:31:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Update issue 74 with new escaping rules [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-151 - Update ISSUE-74 with new escaping rules [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

15:31:59 <AlexHall> guus: next issue...

Guus Schreiber: next issue...

15:32:48 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names

Gavin Carothers: ACTION Gavin Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names

15:32:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-152 - Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

15:32:57 <sandro> ericP, the link you want now works:  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-03-14#resolution_1

Sandro Hawke: ericP, the link you want now works: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-03-14#resolution_1

15:33:36 <AlexHall> guus: revisiting issue from last week (n-triples)

Guus Schreiber: revisiting issue from last week (n-triples)

15:33:49 <AlexHall> ... andy proposed a way forward last week

... andy proposed a way forward last week

15:34:09 <AlexHall> gavin: most of this proposal is reflected in the current editors draft, so i like it

Gavin Carothers: most of this proposal is reflected in the current editors draft, so i like it

15:34:32 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/c43ac715dde2/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-triples

Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/c43ac715dde2/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-triples

15:34:49 <AlexHall> guus: would like comment from the oracle people. have they had a chance to review it?

Guus Schreiber: would like comment from the oracle people. have they had a chance to review it?

15:34:54 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:35:19 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:35:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted), cgreer, LeeF, PatH, ??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted), cgreer, LeeF, PatH, ??P5

15:35:21 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

15:35:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, cgreer, zwu2, LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, pfps, cgreer, zwu2, LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1,

15:35:22 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

15:35:24 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted

15:35:48 <PatH> zakim, mute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me.

15:35:50 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

15:36:01 <AlexHall> zwu2: have been busy with customers, no chance to review it

Zhe Wu: have been busy with customers, no chance to review it

15:36:38 <AlexHall> ACTION: zhe to review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it.

ACTION: zhe to review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it.

15:36:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it. [on Zhe Wu - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-153 - Review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it. [on Zhe Wu - due 2012-03-21].

15:36:49 <zwu2> thanks guus

Zhe Wu: thanks guus

15:37:10 <AlexHall> guus: let's look at planning for Turtle LC

Guus Schreiber: let's look at planning for Turtle LC

15:37:23 <pchampin> what's the deadline?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: what's the deadline?

15:37:33 <AlexHall> ... andy indicated willingness to review Turtle draft for last call. any other volunteers?

... andy indicated willingness to review Turtle draft for last call. any other volunteers?

15:38:08 <AlexHall> guus: editors, what is a reasonable deadline for reviewers?

Guus Schreiber: editors, what is a reasonable deadline for reviewers?

15:38:43 <AlexHall> eric: Trying to think of changes. There's removal of \u escapes from prefix names

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Trying to think of changes. There's removal of \u escapes from prefix names

15:39:02 <AlexHall> gavin: change to reference ourselves for n-triples definition

Gavin Carothers: change to reference ourselves for n-triples definition

15:39:21 <AlexHall> ... change grammar to reflect text per today's resolution

... change grammar to reflect text per today's resolution

15:39:27 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:39:39 <AlexHall> ... editorial changes that Andy collected in an email

... editorial changes that Andy collected in an email

15:39:46 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

15:39:46 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

15:40:01 <AlexHall> ... do we need issues for all of these?

... do we need issues for all of these?

15:40:33 <AlexHall> eric: think we can edit as needed to address these items before review, once it's reviewed we need wg consensus

Eric Prud'hommeaux: think we can edit as needed to address these items before review, once it's reviewed we need wg consensus

15:40:42 <PatH> what?

Patrick Hayes: what?

15:40:52 <AlexHall> gavin: another issue is case-insensitivity of boolean true/false

Gavin Carothers: another issue is case-insensitivity of boolean true/false

15:40:59 <PatH> ah.

Patrick Hayes: ah.

15:41:10 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false

Gavin Carothers: ACTION Gavin Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false

15:41:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-154 - Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

15:41:18 <AlexHall> guus: don't see this noted anywhere, need to track it

Guus Schreiber: don't see this noted anywhere, need to track it

15:41:53 <AlexHall> gavin: can somebody confirm that we've covered all feedback from comments mailing list?

Gavin Carothers: can somebody confirm that we've covered all feedback from comments mailing list?

15:42:19 <AlexHall> guus: i think we have tracked all that, we can go back and verify in parallel with group review

Guus Schreiber: i think we have tracked all that, we can go back and verify in parallel with group review

15:42:40 <AlexHall> gavin: what are we writing changes relative to?

Gavin Carothers: what are we writing changes relative to?

15:42:57 <AlexHall> guus: since no previous standard, use original wg note as a reference point

Guus Schreiber: since no previous standard, use original wg note as a reference point

15:43:13 <AlexHall> eric: did we decide that true/false are case-insensitive?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: did we decide that true/false are case-insensitive?

15:43:37 <AlexHall> gavin: sparql says that they are case insensitive, but grammar isn't

Gavin Carothers: sparql says that they are case insensitive, but grammar isn't

15:43:59 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:44:01 <PatH> sound of head exploding?

Patrick Hayes: sound of head exploding?

15:44:18 <ericP> sound of infinite recursion?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sound of infinite recursion?

15:44:25 <PatH> lol

Patrick Hayes: lol

15:44:37 <AlexHall> guus: i'm happy with anything you guys agree on

Guus Schreiber: i'm happy with anything you guys agree on

15:45:02 <AndyS> skype bug is attempting to take over all my machine

Andy Seaborne: skype bug is attempting to take over all my machine

15:45:20 <AlexHall> gavin: trying to agree on grammar keyword, but in either case they will map to canonical (lower-case) "true" or "false" for the actual literal value

Gavin Carothers: trying to agree on grammar keyword, but in either case they will map to canonical (lower-case) "true" or "false" for the actual literal value

15:45:35 <AlexHall> eric: correct

Eric Prud'hommeaux: correct

15:46:12 <AlexHall> guus: is 2 weeks realistic for a review?

Guus Schreiber: is 2 weeks realistic for a review?

15:46:35 <AlexHall> gavin: 2 weeks should be ok

Gavin Carothers: 2 weeks should be ok

15:46:59 <AlexHall> guus: have draft available in 2 weeks, then give reviewers another 2 weeks to respond after that

Guus Schreiber: have draft available in 2 weeks, then give reviewers another 2 weeks to respond after that

15:47:14 <AlexHall> ... sound ok to editors?

... sound ok to editors?

15:47:23 <ericP> AndyS1, would you prefer that the keywords were case-sensitive or insensitive?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS1, would you prefer that the keywords were case-sensitive or insensitive?

15:48:14 <pchampin> ok, count me in as a reviewer

Pierre-Antoine Champin: ok, count me in as a reviewer

15:49:12 <AlexHall> guus: let's make this our tentative schedule. mar 28 draft available, discuss reviews at apr 11 telecon

Guus Schreiber: let's make this our tentative schedule. mar 28 draft available, discuss reviews at apr 11 telecon

15:50:05 <AlexHall> ... andy and pierre-antoine, would be best if reviews available by apr 9

... andy and pierre-antoine, would be best if reviews available by apr 9

15:50:23 <AndyS> Not sure it's a big deal - compatibility for SPARQL is insensitive but not sure it happens in the wild much (indeed even using true/false at all)

Andy Seaborne: Not sure it's a big deal - compatibility for SPARQL is insensitive but not sure it happens in the wild much (indeed even using true/false at all)

15:50:35 <AlexHall> ACTION: gavin to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28

ACTION: gavin to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28

15:50:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-155 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].

15:50:48 <AlexHall> ACTION: eric to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28

ACTION: eric to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28

15:50:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-156 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-03-21].

15:51:05 <AlexHall> ACTION: andy to review Turtle LC draft by April 9

ACTION: andy to review Turtle LC draft by April 9

15:51:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-157 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-157 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-03-21].

15:51:52 <AlexHall> ... discuss testing approach in the coming weeks

... discuss testing approach in the coming weeks

15:52:05 <AlexHall> ... hope to have document published by end of april

... hope to have document published by end of april

15:52:19 <AlexHall> ACTION: pchampin to review Turtle LC draft by April 9

ACTION: pchampin to review Turtle LC draft by April 9

15:52:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Pierre-Antoine Champin - due 2012-03-21].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-158 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Pierre-Antoine Champin - due 2012-03-21].

15:53:03 <Guus>

Guus Schreiber:

15:53:06 <AlexHall> guus: SPARQL wg coordination -- think we're ok on this

Guus Schreiber: SPARQL wg coordination -- think we're ok on this

15:53:26 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:53:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:53:37 <AlexHall> topic: named graphs semantics

4. named graphs semantics

15:53:43 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me.

15:53:43 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

15:53:47 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:53:47 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:53:54 <AlexHall> zakim, mute AndyS

zakim, mute AndyS

15:53:55 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted

15:54:07 <PatH> im getting bad sound here.

Patrick Hayes: im getting bad sound here.

15:54:34 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:54:40 <AlexHall> guus: pat sent out note on contexts, can we take a few minutes to ask clarification questions?

Guus Schreiber: pat sent out note on contexts, can we take a few minutes to ask clarification questions?

15:54:43 <PatH> sound ok now

Patrick Hayes: sound ok now

15:55:19 <AlexHall> ... in the 3 cases, particularly case 2 where dataset has time of context

... in the 3 cases, particularly case 2 where dataset has time of context

15:55:52 <AlexHall> ... my reply was that this is orthogonal to case 3. is this correct?

... my reply was that this is orthogonal to case 3. is this correct?

15:55:57 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P38 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P38 is me

15:55:57 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:56:43 <AlexHall> pat: they can't coexist casually. if you think of the 4th column IRI as a label in a graph store, in case 3 the IRI denotes the graph, in case 2 the IRI denotes the context

Patrick Hayes: they can't coexist casually. if you think of the 4th column IRI as a label in a graph store, in case 3 the IRI denotes the graph, in case 2 the IRI denotes the context

15:57:28 <PatH> i forgive you already

Patrick Hayes: i forgive you already

15:57:30 <AlexHall> guus: other questions about this?

Guus Schreiber: other questions about this?

15:57:47 <AlexHall> ... if not, would like to give pat the floor to discuss latest message

... if not, would like to give pat the floor to discuss latest message

15:58:13 <AZ> Pat's last long email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0086.html

Antoine Zimmermann: Pat's last long email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0086.html

15:58:40 <AlexHall> pat: the latest email was a sort of epiphany about this whole thing -- whether the scope of IRI labels should be local to a graph or global to the web, etc.

Patrick Hayes: the latest email was a sort of epiphany about this whole thing -- whether the scope of IRI labels should be local to a graph or global to the web, etc.

15:59:00 <AlexHall> ... both sides seem blindingly obvious to their proponents

... both sides seem blindingly obvious to their proponents

15:59:22 <AlexHall> ... think of RDF as have always been a context logic all along, where the context was implicit

... think of RDF as have always been a context logic all along, where the context was implicit

15:59:40 <AlexHall> ... i.e. there was a global RDF context but we never actually acknowledged it

... i.e. there was a global RDF context but we never actually acknowledged it

15:59:57 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

16:00:25 <AlexHall> ... suggest that we make this explicit in RDF, with the assumption that if a context is not explicitly named it's assumed to be the global RDF context

... suggest that we make this explicit in RDF, with the assumption that if a context is not explicitly named it's assumed to be the global RDF context

16:00:44 <AlexHall> ... allows authors to fix their data in a hierarchy of contexts

... allows authors to fix their data in a hierarchy of contexts

16:01:02 <AlexHall> ... this suits the cyc approach, which has been doing this for a while

... this suits the cyc approach, which has been doing this for a while

16:01:14 <zwu2> I like the idea of importing another context

Zhe Wu: I like the idea of importing another context

16:01:29 <AlexHall> ... also works well with owl:imports, sort of importing another context

... also works well with owl:imports, sort of importing another context

16:02:02 <AlexHall> ... can add this machinery to RDF by modifying the semantics and syntax, with datasets as the syntax

... can add this machinery to RDF by modifying the semantics and syntax, with datasets as the syntax

16:02:21 <AlexHall> ... allow people to grow this global network of contexts

... allow people to grow this global network of contexts

16:02:54 <AlexHall> ... supports andy's notion of islands and allows people to explicitly link their islands to participate in other contexts

... supports andy's notion of islands and allows people to explicitly link their islands to participate in other contexts

16:03:12 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:03:13 <AlexHall> ... seems to give us a good story to tell on how it all links together

... seems to give us a good story to tell on how it all links together

16:03:28 <AlexHall> ... and is an extension of the current RDF, not a modification of it

... and is an extension of the current RDF, not a modification of it

16:04:26 <AlexHall> az: pat, you say we could integrate in RDF semantics the notion of context. couldn't we just keep RDF as it is, a context-less logic & data model, and define another contextual data model

Antoine Zimmermann: pat, you say we could integrate in RDF semantics the notion of context. couldn't we just keep RDF as it is, a context-less logic & data model, and define another contextual data model

16:04:52 <AlexHall> ... people would explicitly opt into it if they don't want the context-less RDF

... people would explicitly opt into it if they don't want the context-less RDF

16:05:13 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:05:32 <AlexHall> pat: yes, we could do that. would like to give people a way to publish data in a context and provide the machinery for people to explicitly declare their context

Patrick Hayes: yes, we could do that. would like to give people a way to publish data in a context and provide the machinery for people to explicitly declare their context

16:05:55 <AlexHall> ... could certainly be done in two layers as you say

... could certainly be done in two layers as you say

16:06:38 <AlexHall> az: if it's all one layer and you publish something in a context, don't you run into issues of contexts of contexts, quints, etc?

Antoine Zimmermann: if it's all one layer and you publish something in a context, don't you run into issues of contexts of contexts, quints, etc?

16:06:52 <AlexHall> pat: had the same worry, but there's a way to stop that from happening.

Patrick Hayes: had the same worry, but there's a way to stop that from happening.

16:07:34 <AZ> ack AZ

Antoine Zimmermann: ack AZ

16:08:01 <AlexHall> guus: if i look at your trig, everything except the first line is the same as what others have suggested

Guus Schreiber: if i look at your trig, everything except the first line is the same as what others have suggested

16:08:12 <AlexHall> ... but what's the point of the rdf:DatasetMeta in the first line?

... but what's the point of the rdf:DatasetMeta in the first line?

16:08:14 <Guus> ack Guus

Guus Schreiber: ack Guus

16:09:06 <AlexHall> pat: the IRI identifies a context. an IRI can both name something but also reference a context.

Patrick Hayes: the IRI identifies a context. an IRI can both name something but also reference a context.

16:09:37 <Arnaud> did he just say "meta context"??

Arnaud Le Hors: did he just say "meta context"??

16:09:37 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:09:38 <AlexHall> ... rdf:DatasetMeta is a special IRI that allows us to denote the actual context, and refer to it in other places as the actual context

... rdf:DatasetMeta is a special IRI that allows us to denote the actual context, and refer to it in other places as the actual context

16:09:48 <AZ> this makes sense to me

Antoine Zimmermann: this makes sense to me

16:10:27 <AlexHall> ... addresses the issue where people want to use the 4th column as a context but have it denote something else (a person, etc)

... addresses the issue where people want to use the 4th column as a context but have it denote something else (a person, etc)

16:10:43 <AlexHall> sandro: so far this sounds encouraging. a lot more details to work out.

Sandro Hawke: so far this sounds encouraging. a lot more details to work out.

16:11:03 <AlexHall> guus: yes, many more details. would like to work out some examples.

Guus Schreiber: yes, many more details. would like to work out some examples.

16:11:42 <AlexHall> sandro: the term that you use for importing something, is this actually asserting something to be true?

Sandro Hawke: the term that you use for importing something, is this actually asserting something to be true?

16:12:07 <AlexHall> ... can you use this to make statements about the truth of the stuff in a context?

... can you use this to make statements about the truth of the stuff in a context?

16:12:09 <LeeF> consistent

Lee Feigenbaum: consistent

16:12:12 <LeeF> ?

Lee Feigenbaum: ?

16:12:19 <zwu2> compatible contexts?

Zhe Wu: compatible contexts?

16:12:34 <AlexHall> pat: i think of this more as an endorsement or agreement.

Patrick Hayes: i think of this more as an endorsement or agreement.

16:13:08 <Arnaud>  re: meta context, I hope we're only talking about one level of context

Arnaud Le Hors: re: meta context, I hope we're only talking about one level of context

16:13:23 <AlexHall> ... phrasing it in terms of absolute truth is a bit misleading. seems like you want to claim that something is globally true, which seems counter to the point of all this

... phrasing it in terms of absolute truth is a bit misleading. seems like you want to claim that something is globally true, which seems counter to the point of all this

16:13:42 <Guus> q?\

Guus Schreiber: q?\

16:13:49 <AlexHall> sandro: but if i'm in a context and i say something is true, the truth of that can't be any stronger than my own context

Sandro Hawke: but if i'm in a context and i say something is true, the truth of that can't be any stronger than my own context

16:14:11 <AlexHall> pat: exactly. we want to avoid the perception that we're trying to state something as globally true.

Patrick Hayes: exactly. we want to avoid the perception that we're trying to state something as globally true.

16:14:54 <AlexHall> sandro: what about the school of thought that if you're using a URI, you're accepting the document named by that URI? is that OK to do here?

Sandro Hawke: what about the school of thought that if you're using a URI, you're accepting the document named by that URI? is that OK to do here?

16:15:27 <AlexHall> pat: I'm aware of that convention. but it often doesn't work. you could think of it as an implicit version of what i'm trying to make explicit here.

Patrick Hayes: I'm aware of that convention. but it often doesn't work. you could think of it as an implicit version of what i'm trying to make explicit here.

16:16:05 <AlexHall> ... you could encourage as good practice that if you use a URI, you're accepting as true the contexts mentioned by that document.

... you could encourage as good practice that if you use a URI, you're accepting as true the contexts mentioned by that document.

16:16:35 <AlexHall> guus: at the end of the telecon time. would like to see more email conversation on this, especially about how it relates to the example use cases.

Guus Schreiber: at the end of the telecon time. would like to see more email conversation on this, especially about how it relates to the example use cases.

16:17:03 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:17:24 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

16:17:28 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:17:29 <AlexHall> ... adjourned.

... adjourned.

16:17:29 <Zakim> -ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB

16:17:31 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:17:36 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:17:38 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:17:38 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

16:17:39 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:17:42 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:17:43 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:17:45 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

16:17:45 <Zakim> -??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5

16:17:59 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

16:18:07 <AlexHall> RRSAgent, draft minutes

RRSAgent, draft minutes

16:18:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html AlexHall

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html AlexHall

16:18:19 <AlexHall> RRSAgent, make logs public

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:18:31 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH



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This revision (#3) generated 2012-03-14 16:31:25 UTC by 'alexhall', comments: None