Chatlog 2012-03-14

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14:56:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-irc
14:56:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:56:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:56:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:47 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:47 <trackbot> Date: 14 March 2012
14:56:55 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:31 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
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14:57:45 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me
14:57:45 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
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14:58:05 <Zakim> +sandro
14:58:13 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
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14:59:22 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
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15:01:48 <AZ> zakim, aacc is me
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15:02:35 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud, AlexHall, Guus, AZ
15:02:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, pchampin, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1, sandro, ericP
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15:03:28 <pchampin> stuck in my previous meeting, can not dial in for the moment, sorry
15:03:46 <Zakim> +??P41
15:03:53 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P41 is me
15:03:56 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:04:57 <Zakim> +EricP
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15:05:48 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:05:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:06:31 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:06:39 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:06:39 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:06:45 <danbri> regrets from me; on a trip
15:07:09 <AlexHall> i'll scribe.
15:07:34 <AlexHall> scribe: alexhall
15:07:45 <AlexHall> topic: Admin
15:08:30 <AlexHall> guus: PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon
15:08:31 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
15:08:39 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:08:39 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:08:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:08:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:08:43 <AlexHall> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 7 Mar telecon
15:09:52 <AlexHall> topic: Action Item review
15:10:04 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:10:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
15:10:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted)
15:10:57 <AlexHall> sandro: nobody here has open action item
15:11:37 <AlexHall> ... (aside from guus and sandro, and these aren't done).
15:11:39 <Zakim> +cgreer
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15:12:02 <AlexHall> guus: reminder, 1 hour earlier for europeans next week, then back to regular schedule
15:12:05 <AlexHall> topic: Turtle
15:12:37 <ericP>  ISSUE-67: \xxxx escaping in prefixed names
15:12:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-67 \xxxx escaping in prefixed names notes added
15:13:16 <AlexHall> guus: would like to close issue 67 before moving on
15:13:38 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes 
15:13:49 <AlexHall> eric: text has been committed to hg
15:13:52 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:14:18 <AlexHall> ... believe this text addresses that by saying \uxxxx is a numeric escape, and that these are allowed in IRIs but not in other places
15:14:59 <AndyS> Strings?
15:15:04 <AlexHall> guus: add link to minutes where we discussed this in the issue notes, close the issue
15:16:26 <AlexHall> gavin: we do allow numeric escapes in strings, this disagrees with the text
15:17:16 <AlexHall> eric: history is that richard didn't want escapes in prefix names, claimed it needlessly complicated things
15:17:18 <AlexHall> q+
15:17:22 <AndyS> SPARQL allows \u in strings (and local parts for that matter).  Must keep strings.
15:18:08 <AlexHall> ... thought we agreed to eliminate escapes from prefix names to align with SPARQL
15:18:33 <AlexHall> andy: unicode numeric escapes allowed in IRIs, strings, local part of prefix names in SPARQL
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15:19:06 <Guus> q?
15:19:35 <AlexHall> ... they are needed in IRIs and strings to account for N-Triples
15:19:43 <Guus> ack AlexHall
15:20:27 <gavinc> AlexHall: I thought the original disagreement was to allow numeric escapes in prefix names. I thought we agreed not to do that, but allow the reserved char escapes.
15:21:41 <AndyS> As of today's grammar update \u is not permitted in SPARQL local names.
15:21:52 <gavinc> AlexHall: I thought we'd agreed that numeric escapes should not be allowed in local names
15:22:42 <AlexHall> andy: preference is to allow numeric escapes in IRIs and strings for SPARQL
15:22:54 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar
15:23:54 <AlexHall> sandro: are qnames/prefixed names allowed in n-triples?
15:24:21 <AlexHall> gavin: no, they are not, but part of the grammar is in there as bnode labels
15:24:59 <AlexHall> ... use cases for having numeric escapes in IRI/string literals is to support people with ASCII-only editors
15:25:30 <AlexHall> ... and to support existing documents to be used unchanged
15:26:35 <sandro> I'm surprised to see \\ is not a reserved character escape sequence.
15:26:52 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:27:10 <PatH> Apologies for lateness, dialling in ASAP.
15:27:32 <AlexHall> alexhall: the turtle grammar does not match the sparql grammar for prefixed names
15:27:37 <sandro> PatH, no worries, we just talking about character escaping in Turtle at the moment.
15:28:10 <PatH> Oh then I might just go back to bed...
15:28:28 <sandro> +0 either way is fine with me
15:28:32 <AlexHall> guus: think we've talked enough about this, can we go ahead and make a proposal?
15:28:40 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Names
15:28:49 <sandro> PatH, I think we're almost done, the'll we'll be ready to argue with you.
15:28:52 <sandro> +0 either way is fine with me
15:28:58 <ericP> +0 want consensus
15:29:19 <gavinc> +1 for text agreeing with grammar
15:29:59 <AlexHall> RESOLVED: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes should be reflected in the grammar. Eg, remove \u escaping from Prefixed Local Name
15:30:34 <gavinc> ACTION gavinc to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names
15:30:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - gavinc
15:30:40 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names
15:30:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
15:31:18 <Zakim> +PatH
15:31:21 <AlexHall> guus: moving on to issue 74, that seemed to be mostly editorial?
15:31:37 <AlexHall> eric: yes, andy gavin and i talked and came to consensus
15:31:38 <AndyS> I changed SPARQL draft today.  (Please check.)
15:31:44 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to update issue 74 with new escaping rules
15:31:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-151 - Update issue 74 with new escaping rules [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
15:31:59 <AlexHall> guus: next issue...
15:32:48 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names
15:32:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Create new issue for :'s in the local part of prefix names [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
15:32:57 <sandro> ericP, the link you want now works:  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-03-14#resolution_1
15:33:36 <AlexHall> guus: revisiting issue from last week (n-triples)
15:33:49 <AlexHall> ... andy proposed a way forward last week
15:34:09 <AlexHall> gavin: most of this proposal is reflected in the current editors draft, so i like it
15:34:32 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/c43ac715dde2/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-triples 
15:34:49 <AlexHall> guus: would like comment from the oracle people. have they had a chance to review it?
15:34:54 <Zakim> +??P5
15:35:19 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:35:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see ScottB, gavinc, AndyS, sandro, Arnaud (muted), AlexHall, Guus, AZ, SteveH, EricP, zwu2 (muted), MacTed (muted), cgreer, LeeF, PatH, ??P5
15:35:21 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
15:35:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, cgreer, zwu2, LeeF, AlexHall, Arnaud, SteveH, AZ, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, Guus, ScottB, danbri, AndyS_, yvesr, NickH, trackbot, mdmdm, manu, manu1,
15:35:22 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
15:35:24 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
15:35:48 <PatH> zakim, mute me.
15:35:50 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:36:01 <AlexHall> zwu2: have been busy with customers, no chance to review it
15:36:21 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:36:38 <AlexHall> ACTION: zhe to review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it.
15:36:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Review Andy's email from last week re N-Triples and comment on it. [on Zhe Wu - due 2012-03-21].
15:36:49 <zwu2> thanks guus
15:37:10 <AlexHall> guus: let's look at planning for Turtle LC
15:37:23 <pchampin> what's the deadline?
15:37:33 <AlexHall> ... andy indicated willingness to review Turtle draft for last call. any other volunteers?
15:38:08 <AlexHall> guus: editors, what is a reasonable deadline for reviewers?
15:38:43 <AlexHall> eric: Trying to think of changes. There's removal of \u escapes from prefix names
15:39:02 <AlexHall> gavin: change to reference ourselves for n-triples definition
15:39:21 <AlexHall> ... change grammar to reflect text per today's resolution
15:39:27 <Zakim> +??P7
15:39:39 <AlexHall> ... editorial changes that Andy collected in an email
15:39:46 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
15:39:46 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:40:01 <AlexHall> ... do we need issues for all of these?
15:40:33 <AlexHall> eric: think we can edit as needed to address these items before review, once it's reviewed we need wg consensus
15:40:42 <PatH> what?
15:40:52 <AlexHall> gavin: another issue is case-insensitivity of boolean true/false
15:40:59 <PatH> ah.
15:41:10 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false
15:41:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Figure out what happened with case-independent true/false [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
15:41:18 <AlexHall> guus: don't see this noted anywhere, need to track it
15:41:53 <AlexHall> gavin: can somebody confirm that we've covered all feedback from comments mailing list?
15:42:19 <AlexHall> guus: i think we have tracked all that, we can go back and verify in parallel with group review
15:42:40 <AlexHall> gavin: what are we writing changes relative to?
15:42:57 <AlexHall> guus: since no previous standard, use original wg note as a reference point
15:43:13 <AlexHall> eric: did we decide that true/false are case-insensitive?
15:43:37 <AlexHall> gavin: sparql says that they are case insensitive, but grammar isn't
15:43:59 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:44:01 <PatH> sound of head exploding?
15:44:18 <ericP> sound of infinite recursion?
15:44:25 <PatH> lol
15:44:37 <AlexHall> guus: i'm happy with anything you guys agree on
15:45:02 <AndyS> skype bug is attempting to take over all my machine
15:45:20 <AlexHall> gavin: trying to agree on grammar keyword, but in either case they will map to canonical (lower-case) "true" or "false" for the actual literal value
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15:45:35 <AlexHall> eric: correct
15:46:12 <AlexHall> guus: is 2 weeks realistic for a review?
15:46:35 <AlexHall> gavin: 2 weeks should be ok
15:46:59 <AlexHall> guus: have draft available in 2 weeks, then give reviewers another 2 weeks to respond after that
15:47:14 <AlexHall> ... sound ok to editors?
15:47:23 <ericP> AndyS1, would you prefer that the keywords were case-sensitive or insensitive?
15:48:14 <pchampin> ok, count me in as a reviewer
15:49:12 <AlexHall> guus: let's make this our tentative schedule. mar 28 draft available, discuss reviews at apr 11 telecon
15:50:05 <AlexHall> ... andy and pierre-antoine, would be best if reviews available by apr 9
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15:50:23 <AndyS> Not sure it's a big deal - compatibility for SPARQL is insensitive but not sure it happens in the wild much (indeed even using true/false at all)
15:50:35 <AlexHall> ACTION: gavin to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28
15:50:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-03-21].
15:50:48 <AlexHall> ACTION: eric to prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28
15:50:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Prepare Turtle LC draft by March 28 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-03-21].
15:51:03 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
15:51:05 <AlexHall> ACTION: andy to review Turtle LC draft by April 9
15:51:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-157 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-03-21].
15:51:52 <AlexHall> ... discuss testing approach in the coming weeks
15:52:05 <AlexHall> ... hope to have document published by end of april
15:52:19 <AlexHall> ACTION: pchampin to review Turtle LC draft by April 9
15:52:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-158 - Review Turtle LC draft by April 9 [on Pierre-Antoine Champin - due 2012-03-21].
15:53:03 <Guus>  
15:53:06 <AlexHall> guus: SPARQL wg coordination -- think we're ok on this
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15:53:26 <Zakim> -EricP
15:53:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:53:37 <AlexHall> topic: named graphs semantics
15:53:43 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.
15:53:43 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:53:47 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:53:47 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:53:54 <AlexHall> zakim, mute AndyS
15:53:55 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
15:54:07 <PatH> im getting bad sound here.
15:54:34 <Zakim> +??P38
15:54:40 <AlexHall> guus: pat sent out note on contexts, can we take a few minutes to ask clarification questions?
15:54:43 <PatH> sound ok now
15:55:19 <AlexHall> ... in the 3 cases, particularly case 2 where dataset has time of context
15:55:52 <AlexHall> ... my reply was that this is orthogonal to case 3. is this correct?
15:55:57 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P38 is me
15:55:57 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:56:43 <AlexHall> pat: they can't coexist casually. if you think of the 4th column IRI as a label in a graph store, in case 3 the IRI denotes the graph, in case 2 the IRI denotes the context
15:57:28 <PatH> i forgive you already
15:57:30 <AlexHall> guus: other questions about this?
15:57:47 <AlexHall> ... if not, would like to give pat the floor to discuss latest message
15:58:13 <AZ> Pat's last long email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0086.html
15:58:40 <AlexHall> pat: the latest email was a sort of epiphany about this whole thing -- whether the scope of IRI labels should be local to a graph or global to the web, etc.
15:59:00 <AlexHall> ... both sides seem blindingly obvious to their proponents
15:59:22 <AlexHall> ... think of RDF as have always been a context logic all along, where the context was implicit
15:59:40 <AlexHall> ... i.e. there was a global RDF context but we never actually acknowledged it
15:59:57 <AZ> q+
16:00:25 <AlexHall> ... suggest that we make this explicit in RDF, with the assumption that if a context is not explicitly named it's assumed to be the global RDF context
16:00:44 <AlexHall> ... allows authors to fix their data in a hierarchy of contexts
16:01:02 <AlexHall> ... this suits the cyc approach, which has been doing this for a while
16:01:14 <zwu2> I like the idea of importing another context
16:01:29 <AlexHall> ... also works well with owl:imports, sort of importing another context
16:02:02 <AlexHall> ... can add this machinery to RDF by modifying the semantics and syntax, with datasets as the syntax
16:02:21 <AlexHall> ... allow people to grow this global network of contexts
16:02:54 <AlexHall> ... supports andy's notion of islands and allows people to explicitly link their islands to participate in other contexts
16:03:12 <Guus> q+
16:03:13 <AlexHall> ... seems to give us a good story to tell on how it all links together
16:03:28 <AlexHall> ... and is an extension of the current RDF, not a modification of it
16:04:26 <AlexHall> az: pat, you say we could integrate in RDF semantics the notion of context. couldn't we just keep RDF as it is, a context-less logic & data model, and define another contextual data model
16:04:52 <AlexHall> ... people would explicitly opt into it if they don't want the context-less RDF
16:05:13 <sandro> q?
16:05:32 <AlexHall> pat: yes, we could do that. would like to give people a way to publish data in a context and provide the machinery for people to explicitly declare their context
16:05:55 <AlexHall> ... could certainly be done in two layers as you say
16:06:38 <AlexHall> az: if it's all one layer and you publish something in a context, don't you run into issues of contexts of contexts, quints, etc?
16:06:52 <AlexHall> pat: had the same worry, but there's a way to stop that from happening.
16:07:34 <AZ> ack AZ
16:08:01 <AlexHall> guus: if i look at your trig, everything except the first line is the same as what others have suggested
16:08:12 <AlexHall> ... but what's the point of the rdf:DatasetMeta in the first line?
16:08:14 <Guus> ack Guus
16:09:06 <AlexHall> pat: the IRI identifies a context. an IRI can both name something but also reference a context.
16:09:37 <Arnaud> did he just say "meta context"??
16:09:37 <Zakim> +EricP
16:09:38 <AlexHall> ... rdf:DatasetMeta is a special IRI that allows us to denote the actual context, and refer to it in other places as the actual context
16:09:48 <AZ> this makes sense to me
16:10:27 <AlexHall> ... addresses the issue where people want to use the 4th column as a context but have it denote something else (a person, etc)
16:10:43 <AlexHall> sandro: so far this sounds encouraging. a lot more details to work out.
16:11:03 <AlexHall> guus: yes, many more details. would like to work out some examples.
16:11:42 <AlexHall> sandro: the term that you use for importing something, is this actually asserting something to be true?
16:12:07 <AlexHall> ... can you use this to make statements about the truth of the stuff in a context?
16:12:09 <LeeF> consistent
16:12:12 <LeeF> ?
16:12:19 <zwu2> compatible contexts?
16:12:34 <AlexHall> pat: i think of this more as an endorsement or agreement.
16:13:08 <Arnaud>  re: meta context, I hope we're only talking about one level of context
16:13:23 <AlexHall> ... phrasing it in terms of absolute truth is a bit misleading. seems like you want to claim that something is globally true, which seems counter to the point of all this
16:13:42 <Guus> q?\
16:13:49 <AlexHall> sandro: but if i'm in a context and i say something is true, the truth of that can't be any stronger than my own context
16:14:11 <AlexHall> pat: exactly. we want to avoid the perception that we're trying to state something as globally true.
16:14:54 <AlexHall> sandro: what about the school of thought that if you're using a URI, you're accepting the document named by that URI? is that OK to do here?
16:15:27 <AlexHall> pat: I'm aware of that convention. but it often doesn't work. you could think of it as an implicit version of what i'm trying to make explicit here.
16:16:05 <AlexHall> ... you could encourage as good practice that if you use a URI, you're accepting as true the contexts mentioned by that document.
16:16:35 <AlexHall> guus: at the end of the telecon time. would like to see more email conversation on this, especially about how it relates to the example use cases.
16:17:03 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:17:24 <zwu2> bye
16:17:28 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:17:29 <AlexHall> ... adjourned.
16:17:29 <Zakim> -ScottB
16:17:31 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:17:36 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:38 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:17:38 <Zakim> -sandro
16:17:39 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:17:42 <Zakim> -AZ
16:17:43 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:17:45 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:17:45 <Zakim> -??P5
16:17:59 <Zakim> -Guus
16:18:07 <AlexHall> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:18:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/14-rdf-wg-minutes.html AlexHall
16:18:19 <AlexHall> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:18:31 <Zakim> -NickH
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