EOWG Minutes 31 Oct - 1 Nov 2011 Face-to-Face


Resource Promotion

We discussed the range of accessibility resources available on the Web, and the recent efforts to provide more guidance in one place. We talked about the major issue that there are many resources on the WAI website that people are not aware of and are not finding. We discussed ideas to address this issue. We decided on doing a series of promotional campaigns for specific resources.

We reviewed the Task List of what users come to the WAI website to do - which was created several years ago to support the WAI site redesign. For each, we listed the related WAI resource and quickly estimated the priority, the ease of updating or producing the resource, and the ease of writing messaging around it. This is available in the following files (the two files have the same information, just in different formats): Tasks-xlsx file, Tasks-ods file

We also went through a list of WAI resources and quickly assigned a priority. Based on resource readiness, priority, and timing, we picked three resources to consider: Contacting Orgs about Inaccessible Websites, Essential Components of Web Accessibility, and Before and After Demonstration (BAD). People took action items to draft ideas for a promotional plan for each of these, which we would then look at and decide where to go from there.

Outreach Planning lists the resources and is being updated as work progresses. The EOWG wiki includes the draft material on promoting specific resources, such as Promoting Contact Orgs Inaccessible Sites.

Application Notes

WAI has some funding through the WAI-ACT project to develop Application Notes or similar material. We talked about many different aspects of what these might be. No decisions made yet.

Web Standards Curriculum

Chris Mills from the W3C Web Education Community Group talked about what they are doing with the Web Standards Curriculum and the WASP Interact curriculum. (The accessibility information there is brought over from old material elsewhere, not from W3C.) He shared his notes on updating the accessibility section.

We talked about:

We need to figure out how to approach this project with current resources (that is, people available to do it).


  1. Big Picture - discuss current trends in need for training and tools and how EOWG should be part of and take leadership in them
  2. Outreach planning - discuss from perspective of tasks (Tasks-xlsx file, Tasks-ods file) and outreach by document
  3. Application Notes - discuss analysis and drafts
  4. W3C Web Education Community Group - discuss overlap with EOWG, future interaction and opportunities


Helle_Bjarno, Char_James-Tanney, Shadi_Abou-Zahra, Sharron_Rush, Jennifer_Sutton, Wayne_Dick, Cliff_Tyllick, Shawn_Henry, Chris_Mills (part), Alan_Bird (observer for part), Luz_Caballero (Observer)


<IanPouncey> Hello all, sorry I can't make it over this week. Have fun.

Big picture trends, needs, ...

General discussion of resources out there, BoK, A11y Summit, other resources

Cliff: Wouldn't it be helpful for us to do an outline of a day of accessibility?

Shawn: Head banging
... conducts informal usability test to find resources

Shadi: He spent more time than many will spend, people want info right now.

Char: There is a disconnect between what he was looking for and what he found on the page. Looking for "A Day of Accessibility training" That's not what what on the page. triple redundancy did not help in that case.

Cliff: Overall tone is talking about, not talking to.

Shadi: Agree with comments about redundancy and voice. But if someone is just quickly clicking around, they don't find what they want. How to make the resource more visible?

Shawn: You were pained because there was tons of information and Cliff was not getting to it. This is our fundamental issue.

Shadi: Someone well aware of accessibility, W3C, WAI, wish we had a business case argument. And of course we have pages and pages of that.

Wayne: How do you find the Business case?

Jennifer: Google it.

Shawn: It's under Getting Started

Cliff: a couple of thoughts. That may be a great pointer of the direction we need to go with the Application Notes. It is a clear example, here is what people do here is how to do it accessibly.
... maybe we need to start blogging about it and linking to it.

Shadi: WAI Home page - big red button: Find the Right Resources with a series of questions...are you a developers? want to comment? are you a manager?

Sharron: So then you would navigate a series of rubrics that ask you who you are and what you look for?

Cliff: We just did a good experiment that showed that what we are doing is not working.

Jennifer: Those path based things make me nervous, they get messy.

Shawn: it has been an alternative suggestion.

Shadi: Doesn't have to be by roles, could be by themes. Some want to browse on their own, take their time. Others want to be guided.

Wayne: Promotion of current topics?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/EO-Deliverables.html

Cliff: Just discovered Finding your WAI, looks good.
... page might not be perfect, but useful.

Shadi: The hand holding, step-by-step aspect

Cliff: This page would be good for a confederation of bloggers.

Jennifer: What about an interactive form, displaying outcomes based on what you answer? I can see that being useful. Radio buttons or checkboxes.

Shadi: How complex?
... do such systems typically not work?

Shawn: Show me one that works.
... may people won't take the time, they feel controlled, put down a chute.

Wayne: let's make a small Usability Task Force. Computer Scientists think in trees, but most people don't.
... our pages are trees, a forest.

Cliff: I am wondering, do we need a formal content audit. A list of what we have and gets it to where we need it to be.

Shawn: WAI site map is comprehensive.

Jennifer: People come to W3C pages in a cranky mood to begin with.

<shawn> ^^^^

Jennifer: developers don't want to be there, don't want to look at read or learn this stuff. They just want to know it.
... should we do a whole site redesign it is time consuming and will it be worth it? Do we want to redesign or do we want to just blog about what is there and let people know?

Wayne: What will we blog about?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/outreach

Shawn: So let's prioritize and make people aware of what we do.
... a significant issue is the fact that once you have success and you know that you will get good information here, you will be more willing to invest the time to look for what you need next.

Cliff: Timing.

<shawn> Sharron: people say can't get a clear answer on accessibility, all different perspectives. blogging & tweets good. also need to bring in people.

Shawn: Does this get to the points in the email?

Sharron: Absolutely. But we also need to look at the outliers who are making efforts outside.

Shadi: You have to look at motivation for each, support the ones that are useful, and address and invite the ones that may be contradictory.

Observer: Usability engineer. Reminds me of a problem with our help desk. May want to look at it, [product] Help Center.
... Alan working on skills certification. I'm looking for pockets where people are seeking skills, etc and will be back tomorrow morning.

<Wayne> Wayne is here.

Shawn: Check-in synthesis from the morning?

Cliff: Coordinating outreach, a confereration of bloggers.

Wayne: Logistically, we would start an EO blog. Then it will be assigned out who needs to blog on the EO platform. Maybe volunteers. Topics would be curated.

Jennifer: Why not use W3C QA blog?
... not sure we need a federation. Just one post, and others point to it.

<shawn> Sharron: the national dialogue thing, 2 weeks, recruited "catalysts" for discussion. thrilled got 1000, but Sharron appalled only small percent

Sharron: What does success look like, what can we learn from National Dialogue to Improve Fed Websites?

Shawn: Remember that controversy seems to be most of what draws attention.

Wayne: Maybe stir it up.

Shadi: Think about microbites of information.
... posting on other blogs, adding to other newsletters. Identify target messages. before we think about tools, think about messages and reasons for messages. Tools will become apparent.

Char: Need publication calendar

Wayne; yes and can assign responsibly and accountability.

Shawn: Shall we follow this line?
... look at the resources and prioritize?

Wayne: Audiences are implied with every single resource we have, so they are entwined.

Sharron: I don't think we can know what audiences are likely to be influenced or connected.

Jennifer: The connectors will see and send to those who need it

Char: And in tech comm we blur the lines.

Shadi: I don't mean for that to be exclusive, but may want to think about what we are trying to achieve.

Wayne: Shadi, are you thinking of themes? User group oriented themes, perhaps.
... what if this was a magazine. May not be interested in cover story but because we like the magazine we may dig into the issue.

Char: Well start without explicitly naming the audience, come at it from the task side, not the audience label.

Cliff: Let's frame and format our application notes based on this thinking.

Jennifer: Some are application notes, some are not. The task approach is the most useful from my perspective.

Wayne: I love the Safari Cookbook series. So you want to do this...and sometimes I didn't even know I wanted to do it.
... so how about an Accessibility Cookbook series.

Shawn: The recipe for success...in forms, in alt, etc
... Like that it is science and art; facts and nuances

Shadi: What I don't like is it's messy and a lot of dishes to clean-up.

Shawn: Like recipes

Char: Step by step recipes help people understand

Shadi: Most of the topics don't lend themselves to the step by step that a recipe implies.

Char: Many great cooks use recipes as guidelines and make their own styles and improvisations.
... can refer to other recipes.

Wayne: Recipe for alt text. Common because it is a good one. Alert a person to presence, but then what about text, answer that. So you build a flexible recipe.

Cliff: Something troubling me is what do I do with tables in Word and how do I convert them to PDF? May not be appropriate for WAI but some of us could and take off from that.

Jennifer: Could take articles, edit lightly and include in EO

Wayne: The point of a blog is to talk about new stuff. We would not go back to how to do a table, would talk about something CSS3 or TML% referenced. Then could say if you are interested in this, here are links to older resources.

Jennifer: Part of the different spin we have is that if you do these things properly, you are complying with WCAG such and such. So maybe it is a practical way to help people learn WCAG2.
... where and what you read is important. There needs to be a balance as long as we give it a unique spin.

Shawn: Ideal would be to have a primary definitive source of accessibility. If I search for "How to make an accessible table" I find an entire page of sources.
... how does a developer choose among them?
... if we did enough outreach and promotion we could be the definitive source and then focus our energies on developing new stuff.

Shadi: Love the idea, working with community. People put things online and can't maintain it. We could support good work in the community. We had a results page full. So what is the curating process, how do we choose among the resources that came up.

wayne: That fits into Char's idea about editorial position. We can set criteria.

Shawn: We will probably not link out to others. We would look to take others in for input. Find ones that are good, edit for EO and give the attribution as editor.

Cliff: Then when people find the article, it would point to the WAI version.

Wayne: Best coverage of tables was by authors Rush and Slatin.

Shawn: Propose we skim through the task list

<shawn> WAI Site Task Analysis http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/tasks.html

Wayne: As advocates and community organizers, we need to ask people how their information is tied to WCAG.

Jennifer: Maybe people who present don't reference WAI because they know it.

Char: yes, for example I on the Boston UnConference site, I said the presentation must be accessible, but did not link to EO's instruction for this.
... so I think it gets more into an issue of compartmentalization.


Shawn: Let's look at what to do from here. One idea is to pick a couple of related tasks and map activities around it, drilling into specifics. Or we could pick an audience like higher ed and look at what resources to promote to that audience...
... what we still would need.

Wayne: Tasks are where we ended, let's look at those and consider what we would do.

Jennifer: So maybe easy ones first, but that might be boring.

Wayne: How about number 8...the CEO just gave me the task, what do I do?

Shawn: That one is very open

Wayne: The next one is related.

Shawn: What about training?

Cliff: Number 38 and 40.

Helle: Need more specific idea of audience.
... and how to introduce policy

Char: But want to be careful about getting so granular that you have 90% overlapping content.

Jennifer: your examples will be different for each scenario. Like in education, you might have a student who needs accessible math.

Char: but what's the difference between that and the bizman who needs math?

Wayne: If our scenarios are broad, it will be inclusive.

Jennifer: I am all for starting with the people because it is their stories that draw people in.

Shawn: How will we reach these people...who are they, what do we have that they need, what do we need to develop.

Wayne: The purpose is to draw them into the literature.

Jennifer: yes, the goal is to take a scenario, introducing them to the people who need it.

Helle: The thing that Wayne mentioned is a very widely needed, practical question. Will provide tools for success.

Cliff: Could almost have a check list for what you need to get buy-in, tech aspects, etc.
... can use as roadmap to resources

Jennifer: Should blog post link to FAQ?
... and to others who read this blog post also read....

Helle: Like Amazon.

Shadi: Now it sounds like we may be generating new content?

Sharron: Just a map.

Shadi: But still content and still needs production
... and blog posts get lost, buried.

Jennifer: Interested in FAQs

Char: Problem is that what we think of FAQs may not be what customers think of.

Wayne: Implementation plan would be useful to these folks who just got the assignment to lead accessibility

Shadi: Need to think about the complexity that arises by nature of addressing needs of many types of orgs.

Shawn: Maybe we use the principle of Progressive Disclosure...

Sharron: Isn't that what we are doing with the Task list? thinking abut what will be needed to make an activity map?

Shawn: But if we do this now, we could easily get drawn into detail of tone and minutia, we would sink a couple of months of EO time on it.

Sharron: what about two small task forces to move it along?

Helle: You still have to work on the tech part of the expand collapse of expand collapse.
... How people with Disabilities Use the Web.

Shadi: If we do a small blog post it is a separate space than WAI-IG

Shawn: What do you mean? There are no resource under WAI-IG?

Jennifer: Other groups could blog with us ...others may get with the spirit.

Helle: In W3C newsletter there are messages about other blog posts.

Jennifer: Didn't know there was a newsletter

Shawn: But it is all of W3C, not WAI
... it aggregates news

Helle: we still need to bring it back to the group.

Wayne: I figured out how to do that. We as a group make consensus that it will be editor's discretion on a small experimental publication.
... don't think it should go without comments. EO should allow comments and then send to Shadi and Shawn for final acceptance.

Shawn: i agree we need to look at speed and turnaround. What is your guess about review of blog posts? How long would you estimate the review period was?
... closer to two weeks than two days

Jennifer: First would be slow out of the gate, but would be able to push them out sooner. Looks like each would take about six weeks.

Shawn Depends on what "it" is.

Wayne: Our goal is to present an accessibility problem and then how to use WAI resources to solve the problem.

Cliff: Good point

Shawn: the contest might be a kick start. In the end, what will we lose? We would have to approach it as a beta

Jennifer: Would we still be working on general EO work?

Sharron: Seems like we used to work on many things at once.

Shadi: Was that a good thing or not?

Sharron: I liked it what about others?

Jennifer: I did too

Shawn: Let's look at tasks, let's match them to resources and priorities, see which ones are related to each other.

Shawn: Tomorrow will start out at 9:00, ready to go

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/01/encourage_accessibility_make_a_difference.html

Shawn: we'll talk about other stuff with other group

Jennifer: This is good tone and just the kind of blog posts as we can that will be just like that. Perfect length, etc.

Char: In what conditions?

Shawn: Depends on resolution, etc

Jennifer: word count

Shawn: Find a few minutes tonight to skim W3C Web Education Community Group who they are and their work and look at the Outreach link is a list of the resources, pared down list of site map.
... send the spreadsheet to me, please.

Thanks everyone, see you tomorrow.

Web Education Community Group Meeting


Helle; from Denmark, librarian, now working with government policy etc

scribe: no legislation for accessibility Believe in the carrot, not the stick.

Char: New to EO, joined in May. Involved in accessibility through web standards, now focused on content.

Shadi: staff of W3.

Sharron: Knowbility, EO since 2005.

Allan: Global Business Development Leader at W3C. working on defining certification of people and their skills.
... personal goal is to try to get this up and going by end of first quarter of 2012. Making sure we have the right mechanisms in place to have correct test and authority to administer that test.

Jennifer: Participating in EO since June of 2009. Invited expert, self-employed, web accessibility testing and writing.

Wayne: Professor of Computer Science at CSU for 30 years. Curriculum development, chair of department for ten years. Know a lot about curriculum guidelines and formats. Would like to see us put accessibility hooks in general curriculum so that students could take a test when they graduate. Participating since 2004.

Cliff: Work for large Texas state agency. Job is to make sure that content is findable and clear. Paying attention to accessibility since 2003 and 2004 through Knowbility conferences. Developed training for staff in document accessibility

Chris Mills: Open Standards Advocate and such is the title. A lot of work in testing new features of new specs and techniques as they are released for implementation. Chair of newly formed Education Community Group. Want to explore how to collaborate.

Shawn: Want to look at overlaps and connections. Chris, maybe tell us more?

Chris: In the past with Web Standards Group and others there has not been time to achieve big bold goals. Those are basically to have a set of shared standards that reflect best practices and are kept up to date. Various possibilities have been realized by getting a W3C fellow on board to lead and keep us on schedule.
... components will include: Learning materials - articles and tutorials; Curriculum - more formal structured courses; Outreach ; Training and certification - provide W3C endorsed qualifications; Membership/policy; International education - translate for those not native English speakers.

Shawn: Would the goal be exact translation?

Chris: Thought it would be preferred to have the same goals fulfilled rather than exact translation. What are your thoughts?

Shawn: risky.

Wayne: It works quite well in computer science. If you have guidelines and course are designed along those guidelines, students came out ready. Need monitoring and checkpoints.

Shawn: at a meta level.

Wayne: Well at a level of conferring degrees. it is important to give local cultures the ability to communicate. equally important to make sure that the goals and skills are clear.

Shadi: Wonder about the scalibility.

Chris: Will largely be sold by the curriculum quality.

Shadi: Not mutually exclusive.

Wayne: It works for concrete practical skills development, not abstract. Look at acm.org/education/curricula-recommendations
... we should get our materials in there. This is a good model.

Chris: Here is the WASP Interact curriculum http://interact.webstandards.org/curriculum
... you can see it is granular and specific. We will transfer it to the W3C site and get more people involved and do it in an ultra collaborative way that is also carefully managed.
... when articles or coursework matures to be ready for "publication" we will push it out by means of a CMS.
... stumbling block so far is to get all the browser vendors on board. Would be good to have it in place as a completely vendor neutral space.

Shadi: Why the strong focus on browser vendors?

Chris: We focused on them first, but it is not just browser vendors. But from a pragmatic sense, we felt that we could get them on board first.

Shadi: It may be useful to teach developers to drive the browser vendors to take responsibility so we need authoring tool developers and user agents involved as well.

Chris: We need to make sure that even though it is initially seeded with content from browser vendors, everyone is welcome.

Shadi: It is one thing to be passively open to involvement from other stakeholders another to be actively seeking and recruiting.

Shawn: We would request that there be a concerted effort to include a broad range of stakeholders.

Wayne: Can you be sure that you publish this in W3C technologies?

<shawn> ^^^^^

Chris: Yes my tendency is strongly to use open technologies. But many ask for other kinds of tech for specific purposes, i.e., Flash for video delivery.

Wayne: But you must be aware that if it is in certain formats, people with low vision can't read it.

Jennifer: What about alternatives, use the inaccessible, but provide an accessible alternative?

Chris: We want to make sure it is accessible, released under creative commons license.

Shawn: It may be as simple as saying the materials produced under this program will meet WCAG2 Level AA

Wayne: although that could be met and I would still be unable to use it.

Chris: I usually don't claim a particular WCAG level but make a general statement of accessibility. Then ask if people will contact us if they have difficulty.

Shawn: A clear benchmark gives users an idea of what the standard is.

Chris: Need a clear standard, I agree, for development and CMS purposes.

Shawn: When you are getting close to choosing tools or formats, would be good to reach out to accessibility community.

<shawn> ACTION: EdCG include requirement to meet WCAG 2.0 Level AA (and more, e.g., response to issues?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action01]

<shawn> ACTION: EdCG - CMS meeting ATAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Chris: Another point is that we are looking at web development but next will look at non-tech issues. Aiming to have material available for de-mystifying techniques for others who are involved in structure and design and content as well. Beyond development. Also may want to put into context of computer science and engineering.

Wayne: Yes, based on computer science principles.

Allan: Regarding India, we are recruiting most of IITs as members and are generally able to get their attention. When we talk about certification, they default to saying have it in English, because can't translate into all 22 Indian languages.

Shawn: So where are you in the process and how can we support and help? We have material for one and two day courses, several short tutorials, etc. Not at university level.

Chris: next week I will be reviewing content and moving things over to W3C. I feel like I have about 6 months to get something really tangible together.

Shawn: We would be interested in rather than a separate accessibility course...

Char: yes, we don't want to keep it as a separate topic.

Shawn: So first we would want to be sure that there are not practices that are bad for accessibility Second we would want to be sure that best accessibility practices are integrated into everything.

Chris: Yes. I am about to talk about "Accessibility does not exist". Can envision just two course, Accessibility Basics and Accessibility Testing.

Cliff: Yes accessibility as those two are good. How to test is important and maybe accessibility triage.

Char: Many issues, such as Headings are both standards and accessibility. Can combine wherever there is overlap.

Wayne: There are enough issues that have to do with the DOM and specific problems that really are related to disabilities. I found that as a teacher, I had to take time out to teach accessibility because of those subtle issues.

Shawn: At what point would you have drafts and would it be appropriate for us to review and comment upon? Or is that one of the steps you see for us to do together?

Chris: I don't have anyone in our group who is specifically focused on accessibility so that would be useful. To show you what is here http://w3.org/wiki/Web_Standards_Curriculum
... would be useful to review what is here, what's done well, what is left out.
... we still get basic fundamental disconnects. What IS accessibility?

Shawn: How are you working on the wiki?

Chris: We have a system where a specific person takes charge of each section.

Shawn: What are your thoughts about sending and pointing to our existing resources?

Chris: Not a problem with that but want to avoid having people get confused by being sent to several different places.
... as long as main core material is on one single site should be OK.

Shadi: Possibly using different wrappers depending on where the content is served.

<shawn> ACTION: EdCG - plan integration with current and future work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action03]

Wayne: Coders need a day-by-day checklist on each thing they have created. A brief thing, but critical.

Chris walks group through places where accessibility is mentioned in specific subpages on forms, etc.

Shawn: When we looked at what else is out there, we wished for a way to tie them to the Success Criteria.

Chris: Interesting, we have looked at ways to show browser support, perhaps the SC connection could be made as well.

<shawn> ACTION: EdCG look at tie-in existing articles with WCAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action04]

Allan: How many participate in Community Group?

Chris: About 40 now, have list of 100 more to invite.

Allan: What is the primary goal?

Chris: The idea is to provide very granular materials for people to use and for educators to incorporate into their own courses. Figured that was how to make it most valuable and widely usable.

Sharron: How do you work, meetings?

Chris: Don't formally meet but do most by wiki and list updates.
... public-webed is the list.

Agenda check

Shawn: Let's review the agenda once more: We have completed the Web Education Community Group. Still have as possibilities the Application Notes, parsing the info from the Task List developed yesterday, and may look at How to Make Presentations Accessible to All. Three blocks of time, how to use it?

Group: Application Notes and more on Task List.

Shawn: Then let's look at App notes in relation to Web Standards Community group.

Application Notes (relation to Web Standards Curriculum)

Shawn: Go to http://www.w3.org/wiki/Web_Standards_Curriculum and think about how our app notes would relate to this.
... step back, take a higher view. yesterday we talked about a cookbook, how does this change that?

Char: We need to know what is here before we know how to integrate.

Shawn: How about more of pros and cons of integration.

Char: All in favor of integration and figuring out how our work would enhance this.

Shadi: I have a con. We put in a lot of effort about putting in so much work and anyone can change.

Sharron: We could curate.

Char: only the accessibility part, not the others where accessibility is integrated.

Shadi: Need to resolve the issues of editorship. Once it is accepted as stable will we still have dependency.

Wayne: When you start teaching accessibility at this level, it is more difficult than a one day workshop. We need a way to put discreet modules in here that would be our document. That will be necessary. They could not change our work.

Char: Defeats the purpose of a wiki.

Shadi: And would make accessibility integration more difficult.
... many alternatives for establishing responsibility. Could have an approval process for changes that have to do with accessibility Create a formal process of interaction.
... There is this type of information which is excellent for developers. However, there are other audiences. How are the Application Notes to be done for other audiences?

Shawn: or we can suggest additions to their framework.

Wayne: With the App Notes, they must be focused enough to be useful. But we will also need those that are focused enough for other audiences. I don't think EO work should be subject to a wiki. Those that fit maybe, but there is a need for others.

Shawn: Once developed, these will be put in a more stable framework.

Shadi: If we are to work within the WebEd framework, we must develop process that maintains EO control.

<shawn> Sharron: don't want process to get in the way of collaboration

Sharron: I would not want us to pass up an opportunity to participate because of process conflict. Even if it is informal.

Shadi: If it were the WCAG WG we could establish a formal dependency. Because it is a more informal group, it is meant to move along, but we lose some of the protection.

Wayne: I have a feeling however that if the W3C does not adopt this group, they will move it elsewhere and we do not want it to be outside the W3C umbrella.
... it may worth the risk.

Sharron: I have always felt that accessibility should be more fundamentally integrated and this seems like a great opportunity for it.

Shadi: Chris, what is your plan for non tech?

Chris: It would have to be a different track and targeted to the specific specialist course content needed by managers, marketers.

Cliff: Do we have specific app notes in mind?

Shawn: Let's look at our list of topics for app notes.


slh: Try that for my IRC handle

Shadi: Let's brainstorm the very broad picture of app notes, what we have funding for and things that are frequent accessibility barriers. For instance, we argued that we could not address the advanced concepts if we don't have the most frequent barriers resolved.
... need for understanding advanced concepts as well even among the accessibility community.

Jennifer: Has it been pre-decided or do you get to decide the idea of frequency.

Shadi: we decide and the analysis page does an overview of suggested ways to organize.

slh: going back to purpose and goals. Shadi looked at the consideration to meet the funding requirements. One idea was to make the outputs task based.
... or lowering the learning curve, helping developers use WCAG resources, other goals?

Cliff: Make it clear that there are specific steps that will improve accessibility. Concrete, granular techniques.

slh: Combat notion that accessibility is too hard?

Wayne: Tom Jewett did a paper on "De-Mystifying Accessibility" made the jargon less intimidating.

Shadi: raising level of knowledge, skills and capacity of developers around accessibility
... even those who know, take them farther.

Chris: Maximize existing skills, let them know that they have many of the skills they need already and need them to simply apply them.
... main reason many have trouble with it is they think accessibility is boring and hard.

Cliff: recognize what they already know and helping them see that accessibility can very easily be integrated into what they already do.

Wayne: and we need step 2 things as well. Once they drink the kool-aid they need evaluation, ongoing checks and management become critical.
... once they are over the initial hump, we need to provide support for ongoing maintenance of accessibility

Shadi: are there different needs for those in large orgs, small consultants, people in design situation. Can we look at scenarios?

Brainstorm captured in analysis doc

Shadi: In order to maintain WCAG you must have ATAG so the next scenario could have a reference to the CMS. Less of a cook book style, maybe.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/personas.html

<Char> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-mwbp-wcag

<clifftyllick> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/personas.html

<clifftyllick> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/users.html

Shawn: Had started talking about scenarios related to app notes and now will look at those we have.

Sharron: Not sure most of these are the scenarios we need for the application notes, maybe for the task List.

Jennifer: Yep that's what I was thinking.
... could use them as a check list.

Slh: edits app notes page with suggestions to include some scenarios, mostly people who know something of accessibility, want or need to implement WCAG
... or make their products accessible.

Shadi: May want to change the emphasis, may not know about WCAG.
... want to get us away from only thinking bout the basis.

Shawn: includes beginners through advanced

Wayne: Perpetual intermediates
... designers too

Shawn: OK, we have the audience defined.

Wayne: Thanks Shadi for taking us through, I understand it better now.

Shawn: So audience is done, what about content? web components or functionality; people and usage

Cliff: Should we make forms more granular. break down into field set, drop down etc.

Char: yes so many different aspects and components of forms.
... error messaging is an aspect of that
... add task for creating an HTML template
... many because they use WYSIWYG have no idea about adding accessibility to a basic page.

Jennifer: The difference is that it almost has comments w/in it. It would be beyond a one application note project. May be more like a top 10 list and span across app notes.

Shadi: Under web components there is nothing different from a template than a page.
... this is more of a use aspects. when to use templates more than a component aspect.

Char: I would not go that narrow. If all you do is drop content in you have supported accessibility across all pages.

Cliff: An application note about a template would be what are the points that are needed to create a template that supports accessibility.

Sharron: People may be looking for just that, an accessible template

Shadi: Let's leave it open.
... people may be looking for things other than how we may label it.

Jennifer: We did this once for books. it showed all the different things, like here's how to make a footnote, her's how to make the ToC,. What we don't want is to make people think that this is the ONLY way to do it.

Wayne: To follow on from what Char said, not only do you have the need to instill WCAG principles, but also the need to build the page so that they don't screw up the accessibility It would be useful.

Jennifer: It may align with "I have limited resources, what are top 10 things..." and here's a template.

<scribe> ACTION: Jennifer will draft ideas for promoting Contacting Organizations about Inaccessible Websites

<scribe> ACTION: Char and Cliff will draft ideas for promoting BAD

<scribe> ACTION: Sharron and Wayne will draft ideas for promoting Components

Shawn: use the task list to see how they relate to this promotion.
... anything else?
... adjourned. Thanks to one and all.


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: EdCG - CMS meeting ATAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: EdCG - plan integration with current and future work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: EdCG include requirement to meet WCAG 2.0 Level AA (and more, e.g., response to issues?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: EdCG look at tie-in existing articles with WCAG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/11/01-eo-minutes.html#action04]

[NEW] ACTION: Sharron and Wayne will draft ideas for promoting Components
ACTION: Char and Cliff will draft ideas for promoting BAD
[NEW]ACTION: Jennifer will draft ideas for promoting Contacting Organizations about Inaccessible Websites

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/01/05 22:04:28 $