See also: IRC log
<judy> scribe: Janina_Sajka
<janina> scribe: janina
JF: Still owes meta generator text
jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element
<richardschwerdtfe> ha ha
<richardschwerdtfe> calling in
<judy> ACTION: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action01]
<judy> ACTION: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action02]
<judy> ACTION: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering, editing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action03]
<judy> ACTION: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action04]
jf: No progress yet ...
jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon
jjb: Reviewing our concern?
jf: That ARIA approach may be
insufficient at this time
... Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT
<judy> ACTION: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action05]
<judy> js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jonas's approach could _not_ handle; propose to raise those concerns now
<judy> ...would lead to a frustrating user experience
jb: We seem to agree that there
are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable
fallback for alt
... However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
... Only heuristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
... janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X
jf: concern that this is
authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more
... We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
... Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of heuristics
jb: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own
gf: Agrees with jb that length is
not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage
of changes in tech
... This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate
jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption
jf: How to get this into
authoring tool requirements?
... Worried about introducing heuristics into this area
jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?
gf: Yes for me
jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?
<judy> john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag
rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?
rs: No, because no longer
reliable as most content is generated
... It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way
jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more
<judy> js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt?
<judy> jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?
jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?
jf: A different story
jb: But still think it's a
... We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded
jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?
jb: Can we figure this out?
rs: Probably to a div
jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association
jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text, except for certain situations
js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text
jb: But other times very inappropriate
jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice
jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.
jb: Any objections
jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary
jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?
jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess
The latter is more recent
<judy> ACTION: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06]
jf: Leif has submitted a cp
jf: Leif labeled is a 'first'
edit, but he's on target
... I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here
<judy> minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html
rs: So the question is what's the
... So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
... So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged
jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?
<judy> ACTION: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action07]
scribe for june 20 is Rich
Janina will chair June 20
<judy> next scribe is rich
<judy> next chair is janina
<judy> thanks all!
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Jason/Jonas/ Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/ Succeeded: s/jf/jb/ Succeeded: s/jf/jb/ Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/ Succeeded: s/huristic/heuristic/ Succeeded: s/looked like good alt text/looked like good alt text, except for certain situations/ Found Scribe: Janina_Sajka Found Scribe: janina Inferring ScribeNick: janina Scribes: Janina_Sajka, janina Default Present: Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger Present: Judy +1.650.468.aaaa Janina Michael_Cooper +1.617.300.aabb Geoff_Freed Rich_Schwerdtfeger Got date from IRC log name: 13 Jun 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html People with action items: cynthia ers find follow ibm janina jb judy or review rich up wendy with WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]