See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 15 November 2010
rich, when you have the time: https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2010-November/001235.html IA2_ROLE_NOTE aria role note and HTML5 aside
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> scribenick: oedipus
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings/Minutes
RS: don't know how much can cover
-- only 3 of us on call
... getting up to speed
... at last TPAC there were a couple of things that got
resolved
... address RTE but not by first last call -- have to go in and
address issues in HTML5 spec about what can be renderred inside
of canvas -- IE team reported that IFrame inside CANVAS subtree
needs to be explored
... need API modifications to contenteditable areas -- ranges
for grammar and spelling errors
HTML WG TPAC 2010 F2F Canvas A11y Discussion: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item15
RS: selection and caret info consistently exposed across browsers -- compare API notes to ensure that all available and specced out -- plus need implementations
HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
RS: need to work some prototypes to sync what is in contenteditable within CANVAS -- textfield synchronization in RTE
RTE = Rich Text Editor
HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
RS: modification based on
feedback from James Grahame about rocus ring
... hixie tried to conflate focus ring and caret tracking -- on
some APIs they are entirely unrelated API calls -- couldn't put
X Y coordinates into focus ring
... width and height attributes for focus ring -- different
types for diff paths (square, oval, elliptical, etc.)
... subtree has element with focus -- used to have parameter
"CanDrawElemen t" requests OS to do default focus ring call --
determines success or failure -- if OS can't do, author has to
draw it so no info on where focus is
... modified call to take an element and by default draw
FocusRing for that element -- A11y API will have all info on it
; use drawing tab used before FocusRing call made -- if need
high contrast, could draw high contrast ring and use that for
conveying position to AT
... drawing path
CP: sounds possible
... happy to just have shadow DOM in first place
... focusRing have to be run against every single element in
sub-tree?
... haven't used API yet, but simplifying to 1 call is right
move
... how will caret work is right next step
RS: like to have CP's feedback on
draft attached to agenda
... not like a request -- by default, draw what OS specifies
(if high contrast, then browser needs to follow OS convention
and respect high contrast settings
... doesn't draw caret -- have refresh rates to consider -- can
cause issues -- we need to be able to get caret position out of
TEXTAREA
... kinda like an a11y API call -- just like focusRing --
element with focus that has this caret position
... on windows there is SetCaretPosition on windows -- screen
mag could follow -- have to compensate for "moving windows", so
need update on browser side
... when selecting text in IE, and caret browsing "on" --
selecting text with arrow keys, caret moves with where you are
selecting -- rectangle of where selectionPoint is can be
exposed
CP: caret browsing mode shows
locked cursor -- exactly how selection would work -- has
copy+paste and caret position have something all can reference
-- can we produce that via the API?
... 2 things to bring to table: 1) don't understand use case of
IFRAME in CANVAS
... nothing on bug list about zooming -- found zooming to be an
issue -- IE only ones who know what current zoom level is --
canvas mapped to device units, if start zooming in will get
blurry canvas -- need to redraw, but how to do without knowing
dimensions need to be redrawn -- complicated issue -- hacking
way through it on some browsers -- related to Windows API but
still an issue for...
... canvas a11y
RS: by zoom you mean control/command plus/minus?
CP: yes
RS: browser has info...
CP: in Chrome can grab onRate
type event -- in chrome is onResize -- doesn't happen in FF --
no standards event for zoom -- need to know relative ratio for
zoom so can redraw clean and crisp canvas
... found this to be a11y problem, because i use a computer
monitor for TV screen -- if don't have zooming, have to use CSS
zoom which blurs; if know pixel relative measurement, can get
clean zoom
... MS done well; Chrome needs patch, FF in "logical
pixels"
<frankolivier> , a media query based approach was introduced on the webkit blog some time ago: http://webkit.org/blog/55/high-dpi-web-sites/ but afaik is not actually implemented anywhere.
CP: need to know zoom onLoad
RS: return what?
... integer?
CP: need to talk about with MS -- as long as zoom changed, can get that info -- zoom event gets window.screen to get relative pixel measurement
RS: change in zooming level should be accurate
CP: just peeking into window.screen to get pixel coordinates
RS: have MS app?
<frankolivier> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533721(VS.85).aspx - devicexdpi
CP: window.screen.logical.devicexdpi
RS: will return x and y position
CP: returns DPI -- can derive x
and y -- want consistency across browsers so that zooming works
as well as native zoom in UAs
... why IFRAME inside a CANVAS?
... if inside CANVAS could be there if canvas not supported and
want to fallback to IFRAME in old browser
RS: need to log defect on
zooming
... i will log bug for that
FO: webkit blog mentinos approach
to solving same problem -
... proposal on 26 April 2006 on returning zoom level via media
queries -- don't think implemented anywhere
CP: using webkit device pixels ratio as windows variable -- will see only on iPhone probably -- extended to targetdensityapi done by google for android -- 2 media queries, may need one more -- what is there isn't sufficient -- works with CSS and window.global
FO: the google approach?
CP: no -- that was guessing -- on
android have targetdensity API close to zoom level but more
semantic infor
... will send link to list
RS: 1 thing CP asked for is zoom
event -- is providing another missing event an issue for
IE?
... instead of pulling API values, have a zoom event -- use
control/command plus/minus app detect that to make changes to
canvas drawing
CP: zoom event clarification: as long as window.screen is included and fires, can use it -- reason for zoom event is more semantics -- need standardized behaviour for resize function
RS: chrome have resize or zoom
CP: chrome triggers reszie on zoom -- just implemented something new -- using window.screen on windows, can get info perfectly
RS: resize event -- need to state that zoom triggers a resize
CP: that would do it
RS: logical approach
cross-browsers
... compute the resize on zoom
... have to decide if 1 or 2 defects to log
... explained current version of API based on JGrahame's
feedback
... explained rationale behind changes
FO: didn't hear
RS: originally, was DrawFocusRing in canvas 2d api that took an element, an xy coordinate, and a request to have browser do drawing based on system settings
<Downchuck> something of a summary about target-densityDpi and device-dpi http://friendfeed.com/mbrubeck/605bf526/target-densitydpi-in-android-webkit
RS: 2 problems: x and y positions
for caret are dealt with separately from FocusRings
... second: provide x y position and width and height -- asked
to use current drawing path before call DrawFocusRing so can
calculate focus rectangle for api based on that -- also, can
you do high contrast settings
... problem with spec text is if can't do FocusRing, have
author-defined FocusRing which system can't find -- collapsed
into 1 call -- if OS can draw FocusRing bassed on system
settings
FO: will review and comment in detail on list
frankoliver, HTML Canvas 2D proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
RS: CaretSelectRectangle -- hixie wants tied to drawing call -- SO, to set caret position, like to go through API again next week to see if any issues that need correcting
CP: CaretSelectionRates -- issue:
can't get baseline of text i'm using without more info on
current font (basefont determines relativity -- don't want
caret jumping all over the place
... tried to propose in a few fora -- extend MeasureText --
only has legnth -- don't need height, but need baseline to draw
rectangle or texty
RS: want to propose a
modification and post to public-html-a11y and
public-canvas-api
... look at baseline text
... caret blink rate: weren't going to have for RTE, but if
reproducing in TEXTAREA need to know blink rate -- please look
at that API
... have to modify hixie's example -- broken in several
places
... question for FO -- IE can put elements in subtree in
keyboard navigation -- is that in IE9 beta?
FO: in IE9 beta -- should work
for many issues
... been extensively tested -- doubled "get cost"
RS: certain nodes that shouldn't be allowed -- FRAME and IFRAME
FO: FRAME and IFRAME security
risk when below non-visual layer
... agree no FRAME or IFRAME in CANVAS
... define what controls can be used -- radioboxes, checkboxes,
etc. -- visual authoirs should make canvas as simple as
possible
RS: basic DIV and SPAN and few simple things like INPUT type="text"?
FO: reuse INPUT types -- checkboxes; text entry more tricky -- need to do a lot more work as said at TPAC
RS: what about DETAILS?
FO: good question -- will mull on it
RS: FO, will you list thngs that will be real problems -- FRAME, IFRAME and what else?
FO: will put together list
RS: canvas should not be a child of canvas!
CP: IFRAME, FRAME and CANVAS are the only ones -- should be possible to take existing web page go underneath BODY and wrap all in CANVAS -- if don't support canvas, go back to native rendering -- only restriction is need fallback content to work and to show up if want it -- SCRIPT, IFRAME would have security issues
list so far: CANVAS, FRAME, IFRAME, SCRIPT
RS: asks FO about cross-browser comparison promised at TPAC
FO: need a few more days
RS: did mention getting selection
objects; spelling and grammer window.get spell or grammar
errors that pulls back collection of ranges
... prototype in IE? don't see FF working on CANVAS before 4.0
released
... FO have cycles for this?
FO: focused on shipping IE9
RS: timeframe? how much longer?
FO: no answer to that
... prototyping may not be possible until beginning of 2011
RS: examples of RTE on CANVAS
CP: started project a while ago -- tried to implement full set of layers needed for RTE -- what to do with CSS? how to use DOM? all issues down to text-entry -- spec has ranges and contenteditable, so stopped thre -- text entry works nicely apart from baseline issues -- DIV contententeditable -- some internal APIs but hope to tweak that as spec allows
RS: open source
CP: will send URIs to list -- open and runs on few diff environments -- details to follow
RS: so -- group review needed to
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/att-0179/HTML_Canvas_2D_Context.html
... please review attachment
... CP will make proposal for baseline text, right?
CP: yes
RS: please modify attachment to do that
CP: great to get this aired and worked on
RS: eliminating elemtents in
CANVAS sub-tree will help us
... mobile community -- talked about HTML profiles
HTML WG TPAC 2010 F2F Canvas A11y Discussion: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item15
CP: done it -- documented what profile is as part of this RTE inquiry -- CANVAS has instrinsic link with CSS (subset of CSS) -- will speak to that have a lot of experience in that area
[ADJOURNED - next meeting next monday]
<Downchuck> I'm the 949 number (And Charles)
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