Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference

19 Oct 2010


See also: IRC log


Marco_Marengo, Andy_Braun, Karl_Seiler, Matt_Womer, Vinny_Reynolds, Vinod_Hegde, Gary_Gale, Christine_Perey, Carl_Reed, 전종홍 (Jonathan_Jeon), Ronald_van_der_Lingen, Raj_Singh, Jacques_Lemordant, Dan_Brickley


Roll call

<scribe> Scribe: matt

matt: Please say your name when you start to talk so I can learn names
... and voices.


Andy: I'm Andy Braun a Director of Technology Strategy at SonyEricsson.

matt: I'm the team contact for this group. I also do Voice browsing and Geolocation.

Carl: I'm the CTO of the OGC. I've been working in geospatial technologies since 1969. I'm very interested in anything to do with standards around geospatial services and encodings.

marengo: I'm Marco (and Luca) from Telecom Italia. We're working in research for AR technologies.

Karl: I work at NavTeq, I'm part of a team that does POI systems/descriptions. I'm interested because the business supply chain for POI interchange is getting very long and that drives us down the road of shared descriptions.

Ronald: I'm head of R&D at Layar. Normally Dirk, the CTO would be here as well. We're interested in POI representations and want to contribute to the standards.

Vinny: Vinny and Vinod from DERI. I'm researching geospatial information in the semantic Web. We're new to the AR area, but we think linked data is important.

Vinod: We're looking at how AR can benefit from linked data.

cperey: Christine Perey, I helped start the W3C AR workshop in Barcelona and just organized a 2 day meeting on AR standards last week.

Jacques: I'm researching a system for indoor/outdoor navigation for blind people.

Gary: Working at Nokia, and prior to that at Yahoo, been working in geospatial for ten years or so. Been working on the place database available at maps.ovi.com

<ggale> maps.ovi.com ... that's the one

<danbri> http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/

danbri: Working at Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam. I used to work at W3C. Most of my work is around the Web of Data stuff. I edit the basic geo vocabulary and worked to organize the AR dev camp here a few months ago.

<danbri> (i work at http://www.vu.nl/nl/index.asp)


Andy: (Sorry for the google links, I work in Google docs and it apparently embedded these within the mail)

<Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/

-> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=45386&public=1 participants

Andy: Probably another 6-8 people who have expressed interest in joining that aren't on there. We'll have more over the next few weeks surely.
... The public email list is: public-poiwg@w3.org -- just to reiterate: all technical discussions should happen on the mailing list. These minutes will be posted to the mailing list. We can either release a draft set of minutes to the member mailing list, give folks 24 hours or so to peruse them and then push them out, or we could just push them to the public list.
... Quick show of hands? Do you want an opportunity to review the minutes before sending them out, or is it fine to send them out immediately?

<Karl_> i vote for immediately

<cperey> +1

<vinny> no opinion

<ggale> +1 for public

<Carl_Reed> +1

<Ronald> +1 for public

RESOLUTION: Make minutes public immediately without review.

Andy: The member only list we will only use primarily for member-only face to faces. Announcing details of the calls, etc, things we might need not be public.
... I'll put a poll out by tomorrow asking everyone to vote on a call time. I picked this one because it seemed reasonable enough for most people. I'll put a poll up with a few selections and send it to the mailing list.

<Karl_> eu afternoons = NA mornings = good

<Andy> ACTION: Matt to describe tools [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Describe tools [on Matt Womer - due 2010-10-26].


(Matt describes usage of Tracker, Zakim, and RRSAgent)


<trackbot> ACTION-1 -- Matt Womer to describe tools -- due 2010-10-26 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/1


<trackbot> ISSUE-1 does not exist

close ACTION-1

<trackbot> ACTION-1 Describe tools closed

<ggale> Information overload ... is all this documented online somewhere?

<Zakim> matt, you wanted to say this is how queuing works

<danbri> see http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips and nearby

<ggale> This is deeply cool but head has reached capacity!

<danbri> -if you find useful things, the wiki is a good place to share

-> http://www.w3.org/Guide/ member guide

<cperey> Matt, will there be a wiki for this group?

<Andy> cperey, yes i will bring up next

<Andy> Or actually prior to Use case discussion

matt: this group is great!

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Main_Page wiki

<Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Main_Page

Andy: Regarding enforcement of "Good Standing" -- I don't want to get into it, but in general if you want to participate in the WG, you should participate. I don't think we'll enforce much of it.

<danbri> (imho 'good standing' is more about people making/keeping commitments (not promising too much), rather than 'not putting in enough hours')

Andy: One thing I'll ask for this meeting: does the ten o'clock Boston time work well for people? If we don't have West Coast people maybe 9 am would work?

<vinny> fine for vinny/vinod in ireland

<cperey> +1 for Beijing

<Carl> 10 AM east works best for me

Andy: Earlier time is probably more convenient for Asia.

<Karl_> ok for me

<cperey> at 9 AM Eastern

<marengo> +1 to keep this timeslot

<danbri> this is ok for me

<Ronald> ok for me

<Matt>Unfortunately Tuesday is the only day I have packed full, but other days works for me at this time.

(or any time)

Andy: Feel free to put your comments in IRC, I'll review them before putting out the poll.

<Karl_> frequency?

<cperey> who cannot do 9 AM Eastern?

<cperey> weekly

Tentative Face to Face Dates

<Carl> Hard for me but Raj Singh would be OK (he is in Boston)

Andy: I need to square away meeting space, but at the moment, I'm looking at December 7 and 8, maybe the 9th.

<vinny> where ?

Andy: I'm looking at Atlanta, Georgia, US.

<Karl_> 7th is bad, 8-9 is OK

<cperey> what are some of the other locations you are considering?

<JonathanJ> +1 8-9

Andy: Alex Hill has talked about co-hosting it at Georgia Tech. That would also let us look at some of their projects as a break from the working meeting.

<Carl> I am in Sydney at OGC TC and then ISO meetings at that time

cperey: Have you considered other locations? Maybe Germany or European cities?

<vinny> i can organise dublin probably

Andy: The only European city I have access to is Copenhagen. That's an option, but getting people to go to Scandinavia in December might be hard.

<Carl> As the OGC has a great interst in POI as it relates to gazetteer, perhaps we can host an Australia/Asia ad-hoc in Sydney?

cperey: Maybe others on the call can host?

<ggale> I can certainly look at hosting here in Berlin

<ggale> Not necessarily the first meeting though

Andy: I'll put my proposal on the member list, let's have that discussion between now and the end of this week.

<ggale> Is Atlanta the only option for the US?

<ggale> I have a preference for the Bay Area but understand that doesn't work for everyone

<Andy> ggale I could also manage San Francisco

<Andy> ACTION: Andy to post to member list a call for hosts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Andy

<scribe> ACTION: Andrew to post to member list a call for hosts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Post to member list a call for hosts [on Andrew Braun - due 2010-10-26].

Use case creation

Andy: Last week at ISMAR Christine put together a meeting of various organizations to discuss AR standards. As a team we came up with three generic AR use cases. Thought it might be worthwhile to walk through those AR use cases.

<cperey> see http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Three_Use_Cases.pdf

<ggale> Would also help if members state briefly on IRC what their prime objectives are for participation on the WG ... ?

<ggale> Works for me

<danbri> could also action people to send that as intro message before next week's call

<Carl> By email OK?

<Carl_Reed> Sorry - need to use correct name tag. Thanks, JonathanJ

cperey: The three use cases were: 1. assisting a user through a process in the real world 2. 'social AR' in essence, though not necessarily shared. user attaches or attributes content to something in the real world 3. a system that supports bi-directional interaction between two or more users with a real-time communication component to it.

<cperey> feel free to check out the other materials created

Andy: Probably a good first one to walk through would be the 'Guide' use case. It's generic enough for the typical use case of overlaying a wiring diagram over an engine for maintenance work.

<cperey> the content is aggregated here: http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsMeetingOutputs.html

Andy: the 2nd would be similar to the typical AR browser. Finding a place, investigating a POI, etc. Other thoughts on this one? Are there specific things in POI that we should include?

<Carl_Reed> How familiar is this group with gazetteers?

<cperey> ditto, please share

Karl_: Just to state my objectives: the world is suffering a lack of shared descriptions for places of business, etc.

<cperey> that was not the objective of the AR use cases we developed

<ggale> Absolutely +1 Carl

Karl_: There have been various attempts at it, but there hasn't been one congealed standard for it, how that helps AR is one obvious stepping stone.

<danbri> for describing businesses, there is a healthy amount of http://www.heppnetz.de/projects/goodrelations/ data floating around lately

ggale: That mirrors my objectives on this. In addition to working out who means what across the multitude of siloed POI data at the moment.

<Carl_Reed> I will post links and information on gazetteers to the wiki. Gazetteers in a sense are a shared description of a place. The shared description are done by authorities, such as the UN or NGA

Matt: We obviously have non-AR use cases, we just happened to have this stuff from the AR workshop last week. Perhaps an action to start collecting the non-ar use cases.

Andy: Agreed. As Karl said POIs are important to AR. If we have a single description of business etc then we want to make sure it fits the AR use cases as well. The fact that we had some AR work done already made it a good discussion point.

Karl: Between myself and Gary we can come up with the most common use cases for business listings. Facilitates search, and navigation.

<ggale> Carl ... want to set up a call on this and discuss before next WG call?

<ggale> Me == gary.gale@nokia.com

<scribe> ACTION: Karl to write up some 'non-AR' use cases for POI data format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Write up some 'non-AR' use cases for POI data format [on Karl Seiler - due 2010-10-26].

<Karl_> karl.seiler@navteq.com

<Carl_Reed> Yes, good to have POI use cases independent of AR - AR is just one class of apps that can utilize POI

<cperey> +1 to Matt's suggestion

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to mention feedback from a colleague, "Why are they only doing points?" / do we literally mean lat/long *points*, or rather, entities of interest?

danbri: I mentioned the group to a colleague who is doing some work on geodata in Somalia. He took a very precise reading of the word "points" -- x, y coordinates. I took it to mean entities of interest, and a signal to the world that we're starting basic and building up.
... We're going to start with things and attach properties rather than try to reinvent GML.

<cperey> who is speaking? Carl?

Karl: I'd love for us to discuss the scope of things we're trying to describe. One thing is locations: points, locations, geofenced things, etc. Not to be confused with places of interest, which can have multiple locations, a building that has a name, etc.

<Carl_Reed> There is an ISO definition for "point" in ISO 19107.

<cperey> I like that!

Karl: What Gary was alluding to was what's the core-shared common set of descriptions of a business.

<cperey> but an entity of interest could be a person, or a car or an object which is not fixed in space

Karl_: I rankle at the word business, many of them aren't businesses.

<Andy> I second Christine's point about people

Gary: We need to understand a few different pieces of terminology: places, points, ??-oids. Unless we lock this down at an early stage there will be bedlam from people inferring things.

<Andy> In fact this is why I think some use cases are important to see what scenarios need to be covered by the spec.

<Zakim> Carl_Reed, you wanted to give brief description of gazetteer

Carl: I think it might be useful to look at what's been done in gazetteer -- these have been used for quite a long time in GIS and related industries.

<danbri> back in the summer I posted a list of kinda 'test cases', http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Aug/0031.html ... list of potential 'things that we might consider POIs'; in Karl's sense, these are places (unbounded), not just locations.

Carl: Also in mobile LBS. Also known as yellow pages. They're collections of entities of interest. Landmarks, cities, towns, roadcrossings, etc. They'll have some sort of coordinate to specify the location on the earth along with a set of properties.
... There are some really large gazetteers out there already. ?? maintains one with 2 million points. Many nav companies have these, may not call them gazetteers.

<Andy> Karl with a K, do you have a gazetteers

Carl: At OGC we're doing a standardized interface for these.

<Zakim> matt, you wanted to suggest a terminology wiki page

<cperey> what about the terminology which we began in Seoul?

<scribe> ACTION: ggale to start terminology page on POI wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Start terminology page on POI wiki [on Gary Gale - due 2010-10-26].

<cperey> what sort of terminology will be included?

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask re types/categories in gazetteer world

<Carl_Reed> For all things geospatial, ISO TC 211 maintains a public terms and definitions application. The OGC and ISO communities have developed these terms and definitions.

danbri: To what extent do gazetteers have common types, categories, etc?

<Andy> cperey this may be different as it is POI while that was heavily AR

Karl_: Obviously from the nav side of the business we have a number of them with tens-going-on-hundreds of millions of places in them. We really struggle with categorization.
... We have our own plus have to pay homage to NAICS and NACE standards.

<danbri> "we really struggle with the issue of categorisation ... one one hand, easy to use hierarch system, on other paying homage to [missed] standards"

Karl_: We've been wrestling with this for quite a while.

<danbri> (btw I heard at .nl GeoNovum meeting last week that W3C SKOS is getting used more and more for code lists in Geo)

<cperey> I think a terminology developed by this WG should contain concepts and terms which are useful to both

<danbri> http://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/

<danbri> replaces SIC codes

<danbri> "The North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) is the standard used by Federal statistical agencies in classifying business establishments for the purpose of collecting, analyzing, and publishing statistical data related to the U.S. business economy."

<danbri> NACE - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_classification_of_economic_activities_in_the_European_Community (i think :)

Karl_: Categories are a key point of complexity for the challenge ahead.

<cperey> +q

<cperey> I would like to recommend that people review https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0As8Gui74DrCDdHcyUU1WS0NGc2V6RC13YzFCUVBaUVE&hl=en

<cperey> for terminology

<danbri> somewhat related https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=29334

-> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0As8Gui74DrCDdHcyUU1WS0NGc2V6RC13YzFCUVBaUVE&hl=en#gid=0 beginning of terminology

<Carl_Reed> Wikipedia info on gazetteer - good start - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazetteer

<danbri> Carl_Reed, perhaps for another meeting would you be able to give some background of https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=29334 ? (the changereq to use SKOS for codelists in GML...)

Wrap up

<cperey> +1 for discussion on the mailing list

Andy: Maybe we should do an around the room, perhaps on the public mailing list makes more sense.

<Carl_Reed> ISO TC 211 Terms - http://www.isotc211.org/TC211_Multi-Lingual_Glossary-2010-06-06_Published.xls

Andy: Just a short intro email to describe what you're looking to get out of the group.

<Ronald> +1 mailing list

Andy: Anyone object to doing it on the mailing list? Speak up now.

<vinny> +1

<ggale> +1 no objections

Andy: No objections.

JonathanJ: Could you tell me what is the condition of invitation of invited expert in this WG?

<JonathanJ> I hope to invite some korean invited experts

Matt: I think we'll follow the typical rules for IEs rather than the HTML5 method of "anyone can be IE".

<scribe> ACTION: JonathanJ to introduce Matt and Andy to Korean potential IEs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - JonathanJ

<scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to introduce Matt and Andy to Korean potential IEs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Introduce Matt and Andy to Korean potential IEs [on Jonathan Jeon - due 2010-10-26].

<Carl_Reed> Korea and Japan have been working several ISO standards (in conjunction with the OGC) for "place", such as place identifiers

Action review

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#ActionSummary

<scribe> ACTION: Everyone to send a brief overview of what your objectives are for this WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Everyone

<ggale> All -- free free to mail me with terms you'd like to see defined in the terminology wiki

<scribe> ACTION: Everyone to mail Gary with terms that you'd like to see defined in the terminology wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Everyone

<cperey> Gary, please see the terms in this figure http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/Landscape_of_AR_topics.pdf

Andy: if everyone could double check their ability to edit in the wiki please.

-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/User:Mdw my user page

ggale: I just looked on the participants page, but I don't see a link to login.

<cperey> signing off now, good night!

<cperey> thanks!

<Andy> thanks good night


<ggale> Thanks all ... good first call ... been enjoyable

<Ronald> I cannot login on the wiki, gives an error message

<JonathanJ> Thanks all

<Karl_> adios

<Andy> bye

<Ronald> bye

<ggale> TTFN have a good night all

<Ronald> yes

<Ronald> Yes, I can see that one... let me verify my account details

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Andrew to post to member list a call for hosts [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Everyone to mail Gary with terms that you'd like to see defined in the terminology wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Everyone to send a brief overview of what your objectives are for this WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: ggale to start terminology page on POI wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to introduce Matt and Andy to Korean potential IEs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Karl to write up some 'non-AR' use cases for POI data format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action04]
[CLOSED] ACTION: Matt to describe tools [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-poiwg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2010/10/20 16:47:21 $