<scribe> Scribe: Doyle
<scribe> ScribeNick: doylesaylor
Shawn: WAI-ARIA comment deadline
was this week. if you didn't comment and you want to, let them
know right away.
Shadi: Thanks to Sharron! The
main changes is the list of topics. The key points highlight
what the item should convey. We want to shift to other parts of
... a recap from last week. We added some additional topic and themes. The topics have been numbered. The topics have been ironed out a little more. I wonder if people have any initial reactions so far?
... better, something missing?
Shawn: seems to have grown, the organization seems nice. The content has grown. I haven't figure out the pros and cons?
Shadi: lets look at the first topic. Looking at Web Accessibility. Goals, learning objective.
Heather: I was looking at the
audience is a little vague. Could we be a little more
specific. Who authors content on the web. Just anybody even
babies. Learning objectives typically start with an action
... measurable verbs. Use understand, in an exceptional case, how do you understand something.
Shawn: the only one?
Heather: instead of recognize use identify or list. As indicators of how people have been affected instead of access. Describe international efforts. Explain in a little more detail. Identify additional accessibility.
Shawn: do we really want measurable learning objectives.
Heather: I could work on those and get back to you?
Shadi: let's do one by one. The audience aspect, Andrew record to look through the audience? Could be addressed to many different.
Heather: really difficult to narrow down. Could be the rest of the world use the web.
Sharron: this is supposed to be for someone providing resources anywhere anytime. I can't think of anyone who doesn't need to know that. And accommodations for disabilities. In that one in particular don't say everyone, maybe general public. Everyone does need to know that.
Heather: is the target audience someone talking about web accessibility?
Sharron: someone is here to get resources, which could be anyone. Talking to anyone, clubs, relatives, neighbors. Tools background and to be informed, and make a good case. They may not be an advocate or speaker. They need to know this stuff. What are the issues?
Heather: If you really target your content to the right folks. When I see key points for a speaker. Actually informing others about web accessibility.
Sharron: yes. To go out and make a point.
Heather: this content is written up for that speaker?
Sharron: yes, here is what they are trying to impart to the audience. There is a distinction between learning objective and key points.
Heather: this is for a speaker to inform the masses. Is it for a speaker? It's for a speaker then. On an instructional design, I am confused what this is targeted for. This is for a speaker to talk to anybody. It is the speaker that is taking it out. Maybe needs to be part of the description is the content for the speaker. An advocate for web accessibility. The audience for the speaker is a general audience that needs to know.
Sharron: yes we need to know who the audience is.
<Andrew> ACTION: reconsider 'everyone' as an audience - maybe 'general public', but should it be narrower? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shawn: make it more clear as an
... we are looking at is speakers. Can we look at that learning objectives versus key points for speakers? Learning objectives is what we want the audience to get out of it. And key points too?
<Andrew> ACTION: edit opening para of topics to make it clear that this page is for 'speakers'/'presenters' and the 'audience' is the speakers audience [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Sharron: we felt those things are very integrated. Maybe not? What is received understanding and the other is how do you get them there?
Heather: the key points are the terminal objective. Then the learning objectives fall under that.
Shawn: The key points here are quite specific here.
Andrew: they are complementary here.
Shadi: in a previous edition key points alone, and learning objective alone.
Sharron: there is some overlap we thought there might be some confusion. Helle asked what does the audience is going to get here? So we focused on what the audience will leave with. In the best of all worlds. What is it the audience is going to take away. Get rid of the key points. A speaker might use some suggestions you will make. What kind of demonstrations you might do. We felt we needed to leave the key points in. I'm not sure we achieved clarity
Helle: from what Sharron said about the key points, this is what the speaker should emphasize to keep these learning objectives for the audience. Maybe the headings are not completely right, but over all I like the way you put it up there. I like the over all impression of this.
Shadi: coming back to an earlier point, Shawn you said there is more content. What is your impression now?
Shawn: I'm trying to figure out those two sections. I don't know.
Helle: I think the number two how people with disabilities, says an awful lot of learning objectives and key points, it seems overwhelming.
Sharron: could be terisified!
Heather: the learning objectives could be in two as tips for the speaker to use. They could be condensed down. Too granular. Not measurable.
Shadi: to keep in mind, the term learning objectives might miss lead, because it might indicate a learning setting, but some may be a two or ten minute spiel. From small talk to a real training. Ideas for a spectrum of presentation. I'm not sure if we want to end up with measurable objectives.
Shawn: Do we want to reword these as measurable things. Or change the term learning objectives. My reaction was it was very important in a two day training, but if I am doing a ten minute presentation is that too scary for this?
Sharron: good point. They are audience take away's? We can work on that.
Shadi: do people have other suggestions?
Heather: how do I measure the audience is my first reaction. We need to change the learning objectives for the audience , and that is the goal it's not a formal training, from my background as an instructional design, I think we need a different term instead of learning objectives. You are highlighting some points for the speaker.
Shadi: this is the takeaway or outcome. If I look at this.
shawn:> "Learning objectives for audience" -> "Audience Outcomes"?
Shadi: For me if I were trying to set up a presentation. The key points were what I wanted to say. The outcomes are what I look for to make sure the audience walks away with. If they gaze away and not getting it. Two ends of the things.
shawn: -> "What the Audience Learns"
Heather: be really clear here. I can brain storm to send you.
shawn: -> "What the Audience Gets"
Shadi: audience outcomes, what the audience gets.
Andrew: just learning outcomes?
Andrew: -> learning outcomes (for audience)
shawn> Audience Take-Away's
Sharron: take away is too informal?
Heather: you need something before takeaway.
Andrew: -> audience take away's
Helle: I think takeaway maybe too much slang for translation.
Heather: Takeaway sounds like fast food take out. We need something before.
shawn:> Knowledge Outcome
Heather: knowledge, what they want to have from the speaker. Knowledge outcome. Knowledge result, information takeaway.
Sharron: increased awareness.
Andrew:-> knowledge outcome/result/take-away
shawn: What the Audience Gets
shawn:What the Audience Learns
Sharron: what the audience learns is pretty good!
Helle: I like audience outcome.
Emmanuelle: I agree with "What the audience learns"
Helle:+1 audience learns
Shadi: I'd say let's give this back to editors as some suggestions here. What the audience learns and what is the audience outcomes. Audience seems to have a little more preference.
<shawn> ACTION: consider changing "Learning objectives for audience" to "What the Audience Learns" or "Audience Outcomes" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action03]
Shadi: let's look at key points for speaker. Is that term key points pretty clear?
Shawn: My question is that key points, or tips for speaker, things to focus on or perspectives. Would that cover it. What's there?
Sharron: our hopes with key points is the outline, and the material listed below and you feel comfortable and that your audience would take away what you want.
Andrew: some of the audience outcomes will be achieved by a demonstration not the key point.
Shadi: I understood, the addition for the speaker, makes me wonder if those are tips. I'd like to stick more to what Sharron said - outline. An outline would overlap with demonstration, or activity.
Andrew: depending on the length of the session you might have to pick and choose.
Shawn: Under five in WCAG 2 understand the key points of what the objective, that seems unnecessary repetition. The benefits of WCAG 2 and sub bullets is too specific. I'm not sure listing all of them is too detailed. And the sub bullets and feels too much.
Andrew: on the whole I agree with you.
Helle: when we were talking about key points for speakers, Do we have somewhere an explanation of these headings?
Helle: when we describe them with a fair amount of words, if I were to use this, we need another title like key points for speaker, or something to explain how to use. You have listed in some kind of order.
Shadi: Or both. This may related to Heathers question at the beginning. Something to think about. To introduce at the beginning.
Shawn: what if the audience learning objectives is changed, instead of key points for speaker, could that be speaker some key points. What the audience gets is the bulk of it. But have some additional points to give the speaker. Get away from key points from the speaker.
<Andrew> ACTION: add description of topic H3s to introduction so people understand the structure [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action04]
Emmanuelle: I think that the "key points for the speaker" should be some points, things, that he must know or take in account. And the list called now "key points..." is more like a list of themes that he can take to integrate in his talk, depending in the target audience.
Heather: yes I would suggest
that. Provide the some speaker tips, guidance for them, an
exercise, list what they present, even a five minutes speech,
give them the top three things, if you got only these three
things. An elevator speech. What is it what you want them to
know. It much more not as confusing. A tv commercial. Inform
them advise them, think of as not having to have all this
content. What top three things you need to tell them. Speakers
... when I scrolled up it is to be used for training sessions. Really whether is informal or formal in a training session you have objectives. don't use key points for speakers and bring down and have notes for speaker.
Shadi: a huge spectrum for the speaker. I am hearing three directions here. One an outline of that item. The second in the direction of speaker notes. And the third is the most important points you'd have in three minutes. All related but slightly different directions.
Heather: you can have notes for the speakers, then put in that the top three items for the audience.
Sharron: I love that!
Shawn: you love what? take away the outline aspect?
Sharron: yes take away the key points, and be real focused, these are the points you have to make. Instead of an outline to march through these materials, and then have speaker notes.
Heather: be less formal, thinking of prepping the presenter, step back to think you are trying to really say what web access really means. When you go onto a web site, you can click through, and have to go to the bottom of the page. Someone who doesn't know anything about web access. Let me tell you how you would potentially do that.
Shawn: we won't put that level of detail here though.
Heather: yes if you don't want to go into details, when you talk or present these are the top three items presenting? You assume they this information because you highlight rather than expanding.
Shadi: the thing about the questions and demonstrations, in the later section also related to the tips and what you could do in a demonstration. One thing is to demonstrate to assistive technologies. Locally relevant web sites. How does those key points work for everybody? Three or four key points with options to do, there is also a question of an outline. Enough to provide an outline?
Shawn: a summary for this. What about if we instead of key points for speaker, and change to key notes. One bullets point is the three or four points to take from this section. Not to overlap with learning objectives. Goal audience description and what the audience should learn. Demonstrations and activities, then speakers notes with key points. No outline there.
Heather: I like that, I click on that there is learning examples. I don't see repeating that.
Shadi: Shawn were you proposing demonstrations activities being separate?
Shawn: the order would swap is what I meant.
Heather: mere suggestions to what to entertain your audience with.
Shadi: order again, goals, ...I would prefer demonstration activity as a sub bullet of speaker notes.
Sharron: I don't know isn't that the resource list? Maybe I don't understand the structure?
Shawn: some of them are substantial enough to stand alone. Ask them this is maybe audience participation.
Shadi: having as s sub section I need to cover, but really suggestions for the speaker.
Shawn: should not be by itself.
Shadi: in a lot of places it can be tersified.
Shawn: key points from the speakers notes. Key point most important three things, be careful to not overlap with learning objectives, and move to activities under speaker notes.
Sharron: we want them to overlap. Not just repetitive.
Shawn: if it is just questions you want I'd say ways to engage the audience.
<shawn> ACTION: perhaps change "Key points for speaker" to "Speaker Notes", with one bullet being "Key Points" which is the 3-most-important-things-you-should-take-away-from-this-session AND be careful *not* just repetitive with the fka-Learning-Objectives. and move the Demonstrations/Exercises/Activities under Speakers Notes (and change that heading as appropriate). and not try to do an outline... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action05]
Shadi: Now that is under the bullets for the speaker, you don't have to have that.
Andrew: We may have a sub list as a way to engage the audience, like key message to impart.
Shadi: not an additional list? Not another list heading?
Shawn: a separate list with a heading?
Andrew: yes with a heading.
Shadi: is audience ok? Or target audience?
Shawn: who this is for?
Sharron: if we started with who is for, what will they learn, that's pretty straightforward.
Shadi: what will they learn, what about how will they learn it?
Emmanuelle:I think that a speaker can use this documentation to produce different talks for different types of target audience. The whole documentations may be for a wide audience, but we need take in account that the speaker will create a talk for a target audience.
Sharron: that's really what how they learn it, like speaker notes et al to support that learning. Pretty straightforward way of organizing. The sections heading may not be entirely correct.
Shawn: instead of audience ..could have goal colon... that is a brain storm.
Shadi: I wonder if goal is needed at.
Shawn: try goal colon blah blah. See how that looks.
Shadi: looking at demonstrations at the first bullet. I think that is getting too granular.
Andrew: i think we have to assume they know the material, that is second level support.
Shadi: change to something like
is this a demonstrate or exercise what?
... that's is part of the tersification effort.
Andrew: i think that was from several iterations ago. The idea is to run a demonstration themselves.
Shadi: now having them together demonstrations activities I'm not sure what is what.
Shawn: that's good, it would help if somebody is in a hands on activity under a separate bullets, and I'm doing a large group demo I can easily skip that.
Shadi: in both demonstrations and activities. The actions you do in that setting.
Shadi: may be a point to consider is motivational question, may or may not be available for each topic. What questions could you use to grab the attention of the listeners. Ways is a bit broad, but specifically questions like have you ever encountered an inaccessible we site. Make some note to the speaker to make some questions to engage the audience.
<Andrew> ACTION: consider adding "questions to engage audience" or similar as a sub-section of Notes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Shadi: any other comments on this? To recap there is a lot of really good content to be tersified. I'm not hearing any major changes.
Shawn: we didn't want to go with Heathers suggestions of formal measurable. One perspective to leave as is. Another to go the formal measurable. Do something in between.
Sharron: my take away was her first proposal she didn't understand at first, but the advice the about the presentation learning objectives be more formal and some are more conversational. If it is a one on one elevator talk. Some like introducing WCAG it would require a more formal process.
Andrew: I think in the next stage the examples of how you pull together, in a one hour, to ten day event. We could get down to more formal expectations.
Shawn: Down lower you are going in that direction. Might be interesting to pick some candidates for that and see what Heather suggests.
Shawn: I'm curious to see what her thoughts would look like.
Sharron: Andrew can we stay on the call after the meeting?
Shadi: we really have to find the sweet spot in this. Helle got focused on training. I think in most of them Sharron and Andrew found a good balance to understand PWD. Knowing where to find good information. Can be a little more tweaked, but not much further.
Andrew: something measurable as a verb. In planning a demo, but this is where you start out. The key ways of using the web, describe the ways to make tables accessible.
<shawn> ACTION: consider if "Know where to get more information about this topic and web accessibility efforts" applies for each one and therefore not worth listing? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/05-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shadi: further comments?
... on item number two is part of the tersification efforts.
Andrew: we discussed that we decided to leave, maybe move to an introduction but a danger people would not see that.
Sharron: that's what we said.
Shadi: we will have notes for speaker, but is not a learning objective. For each you ask what is the measurable outcome.
Shawn: I think for almost all of the things that is a learning objective so I disagree. I wonder it feels like it is not worth it.
Shadi: what do you learn there?
Shawn: if you ask somebody when you get into a class you ask somebody and they would say I don't know, but after the presentation they would say a real answer.
Andrew: something the speaker can get across and they can follow up with later. It is repetitive.
Shadi: it's such an important article needs to be a third point.
Shawn: tangential point.
... do we want to have that learning objective for each topic?
Andrew: that is a generic tip the presenters should know of how to follow up.
Shawn: take it out.
... because it repeats and people should pretty much know it.
Shadi: ok, editors discretion?
Shawn: whether put in the tips, some way to say by the way everyone should get out of every presentation where people can go to get the information.
Sharron: I don't see a problem for every single one to have something about how to get more information.
Shawn: a more general training thing. If you decided to leave in...
Sharron; we are not certain we would have people who do formal trainings.
Shawn: we will have a page with general guidance.
Shadi: I'd like to move on.
Shadi: let's move on the next agenda item. On the examples of
shadi: to provide sample outlines
with different kinds of workshops and training. Some straw
proposals to combine together topics to do different kinds of
delivery here. That's the background here, how to combine those
modules here. To provide bigger presentations. To pick out
different points from each of these. And example of a 20
minutes presentation. May be old titles. I want to focus on look
at the list of examples.
... look just from the topic and the length and type of training. Is that where we want to go. Specifically Andrew for a three day training? Before we go on, one audience to think of is to think up a procurer. They get three different trainings and they want to evaluate, an org to provide an outline. Would they be able to build an outline or presentation based on these examples.
Doyle: That gets away from tersification.
Andrew: if the procurer doesn't know about accessibility. Do I put this out line out. We aren't meeting their needs?
Emmanuelle:The Sidar Foundation has a methodology and learning materials designed to teach the WCAG 2.0 application in a 5 days course. I can elaborate a document about if you like, but I need some time....
shawn: +1 to including a longer course (at least 3 day of not 5 day) as an Example
Shadi: It may not meet all their
needs. I think those samples would help them create them. Maybe
that is scope creep. Basic idea to help presenters make more
comprehensive trainings presentation, talks. Emmanuelle to be
sure we don't intend to provide an in depth course, much more a
straw proposal. For example you could speak two minutes about
blah, and three minutes about blah. We aren't go into such
... ok what topic Shawn?
... introduction, ...accessible design, accessible features? accessible web design? evaluation maybe?
Helle:long time ago
Andrew: ask people who involved in training. For multi day workshops? How do you WCAG to build a site. Much more technical? What is the most frequently multi day workshop.
Helle:not for this subject
Liam: when you have multi day they tend to run on non consecutive days. Managing a non technical staff, like carrots and sticks, or how people use the web, the second, ...and the third day with the technical staff like how to write forms, going through WCAG in great detail. We don't tend to do more than a three day training.
Andrew: three complementary days rather than a comprehensive 3-day workshop.
Emmanuelle: We had a training, they co penetrate, we don't have a document about what to speak in the moment. We know already. Write something for how to do that is usable. Another training for three days. For already know, not applicable. I'll write something.
Shadi: thank you. Maybe an outline if you have any feedback on the topic.
Liam: the only other multi part we did was a series of university lectures.did set of 8 university lectures... but each was only a 2-hour session... and again all quite discrete.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to question Accessibility Features of Web Technologies (1.5 hour workshop) and to say "Implementing Web Accessibility (10 minute presentation)" is not the right
Shadi: interesting for Andrew, some forms of trainings is not consecutive days, maybe even several days separating.
Shawn: I haven't things for this discussion. I don't' think the ten minute presentation is more management level. For people skimming. If it is separate web design. What is the difference between those. Accessible one day design. For authoring tools. The title should be more clear.
Shadi: features for web accessibility is not common, swap out for a different type of presentation that is more common.
Shawn: maybe detail on how to make successful forms.
Shadi: to look at successful web design, maybe authoring tools specifically?
Shawn: how many teaching a class to authoring tools developers. Maybe one or two people.
Andrew: never quite sure that was in there years ago. Done before my time - support questioning its place here.
Shadi: the idea of authoring tools needs to be pushed, a one day training is not common.
Shawn: a session for advocacy and what to expect of authoring tools.
Shadi: brainstorming on such suggestions for topics. Two hour session on advocacy. Repeat Shawn?
shawn: BRAINSTORMS FOR TOPICS <----------------------
Shawn: two hour session for advocacy that includes what do with inaccessible web site, includes what you do with authoring tools and browsers and meet ATAG. Include one the sub topics components for web accessibility.
shawn:audience: people with disabilities
Shadi: advocacy we tweak more how to contact all organization or how to adapt you computer for more accessibility. Tweak for standards harmonization. Developing web forms. Also. others?
Andrew: liam's other suggestion key things authors require.
Liam: accessible copy writing
Liam:Writing copy for the web
Emmanuelle: I usually speak of "accessibility in the user's hands, and the courses we teach we always find that even the" webmasters "do not know the accessibility features of operating systems and browsers. So I think it would be interesting to include a description of items to discuss that issue, aimed at Web developers.
Liam: a lot of people we talk to about.
Doyle: yes a large audience.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say along with the PWDs is quick checks
Shadi: authoring tools as a topic.
Liam:marketing or journalism background
Emmanuelle:oh, yes, the Liam suggestion is very important!
Shawn: for PWD one thing is good quick checks for accessibility, what you can expect of web sites. Here how to respond to the source.
Emmanuelle:accessibility in blogs
Doyle: navigating on cell phones.
Shadi: yes the mobile web.
Liam: accessibility call to action, or accessibility and buying stuff.
Liam Accessible email! Accessible social media! Accessible video
Emmanuelle: Liam: yes!
Shadi: the meeting is coming to an end. Send further brainstorm to EO. Feel free to brainstorm examples. We'll select different ones. Keep the ideas coming. adjourning the meeting,