See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 08 July 2009
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 8 July 2009 as a true record
<hhalpin> RESOLVED: SWXG WG Weekly approved 8 July 2009 as a true record
<petef> Could everybody on the call please mute when not talking
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 15th July
<hhalpin> danbri -can you scribe?
<hhalpin> DKA will chair next week.
dka to chair next week
<hhalpin> 2. General Organization and Task Forces
hhalpin thought would be interesting to look at the social group wiki
<hhalpin> hhalpin: thought would be interesting to look at the social group wiki
scribe: to look at summaries of
... to see if someone would volunteer to summarize talk from last week
<mischat> i can
<hhalpin> Mischa, you'd be perfect!
<hhalpin> ACTION: Mischa to summarize josh and soren't talk [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-51 - Summarize josh and soren't talk [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-07-15].
<hhalpin> 3. User stories
hhalpin: to summarize the invited guests in the wiki for future references
<hhalpin> Go for it Mischa!
mischat: will hopefully complete by next week
mischat: talked with josh about running terms through plagerism software
<hhalpin> that would be GREAT!!
<rreck> great idea to track changes on the terms and conditions
mischat: and put them in version control and see how all the T&Cs change over time
<tinkster> sounds like it could be interesting to see the results of that.
hhalpin: great idea, would be interesting to share on the final report
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Sören to propose addition to the template for user stories for conditions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
cprey: soren and cprey exchanged
emails on conditions of user stories
... he sent draft and exchanged comments over the weekend
cprey: working on a final version
hhalpin: tobey in luck with microblogging document tracking sources story
<hhalpin> ACTION: [DONE] tinkster to document developer stories on wiki. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
toby: shares link to tracking sources
<hhalpin> 4. Invited Guest Invitations
<danbri> tobyink, thanks for http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Tracking_Sources !
cprey: update on invited guests ... would attempt to illicit input from mobile operator ... Sam ??? to come on july 22nd to answer a few questions
<danbri> looks good to me
<hhalpin> I think July 22nd works for Sam Crichtley
cprey: introduce to his service
and mention how he would like to see this evolve
... from gypsey
<samcritchley> Yes, that's me
<hhalpin> hello sam!
<hhalpin> Your on for the July 22nd.
cprey: will change web page to the 22nd
<hhalpin> Send us any links you want us to read ahead of time.
<samcritchley> Will do
dka: reaching out to geo location
working group and somebody from oslo companies with relation to
the location sharing
... probably be good for the next call
<danbri> re geolocation: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pling/2009Jul/0005.html ... note the last call doc to review
<mischat> ACTION: Mischa to describe/implement a git repo of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Describe/implement a git repo of terms and conditions, and how they change between now and the end of the XG. [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2009-07-15].
hhalpin: 15th is open for a speaker
<hhalpin> ACTION [CONTINUES] : hhalpin to contact eran to talk, also about LRDD and XRDS-Simple
hhalpin: have sent email to Aron about LRDD
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] hhalpin to contact eran to talk, also about LRDD and XRDS-Simple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<cperey> I've updated the schedule to show that Sam will speak on July 22 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Schedule
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] danbri and karl to contact Evan of identi.ca over OpenMicroblogging and W3C. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action08]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] Renato and DanBri and hhalpin to schedule DataPortability.org/XMPP [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action09]
<hhalpin> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DKA to invite Lars or Eric from Geolocation API to W3C Social Web XG for context comm call [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action10]
danbri: will ping people
PhilA: at conference with people talking about mobile web and other speakers that talked alot about social networking at a marketing tool
PhilA: shares page to Dan Thorton, works for radio
PhilA: another speaker that stood
out, see shared link
... either would be interesting to have as invited speaker with regard to well funded agencies are doing with social networking
<PhilA2> ACTION: PhilA to invite Ros lawler and/or Dan Thornton to tallk about marketing through social media [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action15]
<hhalpin> 5. Business of Social Networks
dka: cprey can you help share
your thoughts about work to do around business side ? .... part
of the work from the group needs to inform the community about
the benefits about the open social web ecosystem
... as apposed to the wall garden approach
... that was my thinking
cprey: dka recapped it very well ... wants work from group to have impact in a business context
<bblfish> cprey: is this the type of thing that is needed? http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/business_model_for_open_distributed
cprey: would like to describe some scenarios how a open social web could come about and in what ways could it be beneficial to the bottom line
<oshani> not sure if this is really relevant -- but I see some interesting business related user stories here : http://www.primelife.eu/images/stories/deliverables/h5.1.1-policy_requirements-public.pdf
cprey: would benefit by hearing
more from businesses on their concerns ... in what areas do
businesses wish to see more standardization
... communication would be best to go both ways, us to listen to them
dka: mentioned the idea of
sharing the location information between mobile startups
... have somebody speak about how they're extending xmpp but at a business level if the ceo's got together and said it would be beneficial for them to share location information
... its an interesting overlap of both business and technology
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about oslo biz story
<tinkster> OSLO are a pretty mysterious bunch.
<danbri> so it's these guys, with xmpp etc? - http://code.google.com/p/oslo-protocol/wiki/TechnologyChoices http://code.google.com/p/oslo-protocol/
hhalpin: one thing that could be missing from the use cases whats the best way to do data portability from a business perspective
<samcritchley> I think Aka-aki and Nulaz are in OSLO
<cperey> yes, I can confirm that
<samcritchley> couple of others too
hhalpin: to keep our work grounded to the businesses
hhalpin: there some mentions of the big social webs are sharing information
bblfish: think its good to look at little companies as well as the big companies ... activity can happen a lot faster typically at the smaller companies
<DKA> +1 to the importance of the "little companies."
<danbri> re opensocial and w3c, see recent Wookie/Widgets proposal in the Apache Foundation - http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200907.mbox/browser
<mattroweshow> +1 for the longtail
<danbri> ACTION: danbri circulate wookie proposal to the xg [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action16]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Circulate wookie proposal to the xg [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-07-15].
hhalpin: from a w3c perspective want to make it easier to share data
<hhalpin> 7. # Portability Task Force
<hhalpin> 7. Portability Task Force
??: ought to be clear if charter says not about creating new technology
<hhalpin> Here's this sentence from the charter: "Our goal is to provide a forum through which collaborations relating to social web standards can be formed, and through which the results of practical standards-oriented collaborations can be reported and discussed."
jsalvachua: think we should not invent new protocols, was my idea from the start
<petef> Adam jsalvachua == petef
jsalvachua: w3c isn't necessarily about implementing new protocols
hhalpin: charter is written in that way to share that the group wasn't necessarily about creating something new
<tinkster> The task force could always identify areas where it thinks new protocols are needed, and then people from the TF could work outside the TF and XG to create protocols that fit into those gaps.
<hhalpin> We can't prevent people from informally making things :)
<hhalpin> In fact, we want to informally for people to get together!!!
danbri: if members of the group want to get together and invent things thats fine but be clear of what your doing and be transparent regarding patent policy
jsalvachua: how can we start?
with a statement of whats out there right now?
... to talk about new combinations
petef: thats sounds good
jsalvachua: ok, petef and I should start talking about this after summer when people are more available
hhalpin: agree with overall sense
... but would like more detail ... would be great if this group was able to generate excitement about making portability and a practical plan to approach portability
<hhalpin> danbri - what's FOAF's role in this?
jsalvachua: would like to have some sort of proof of concept of the ideas they are developing
<hhalpin> I would also like to see mappings between OpenSocial, XFN, vCard, and PortableContacts to FOAF.
<hhalpin> With XML-based formats, done via GRDDL.
<cperey> I don't want to draw away from the useful discussion on data portability, but can we have a section in this Task Force which explains what might be business benefits of data portability?
danbri: have something that guides people with OpenSocial, FOAF etc
<hhalpin> Might need Python to sort of move contacts in various formats.
<AlexPassant> what about mattroweshow work on mappings for social vocabularies ?
<jsalvachua> i now more a ruby guy :)
<hhalpin> I'm still in the dark ages of python or perl!
cprey: would like to learn what
the business benefits to the open data portability
... maybe charging people when importing / exporting data
<danbri> hmm http://wiki.dataportability.org/display/dpmain/Business+Case looks a bit work-in-progress
<tinkster> Business case: if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue.
hhalpin: one case might be to have your smaller social site wanting to market about kite flying and them using information from Facebook .. have an open format for exchanging that data
<petef> and if you allow export of data you encourage users to try your service without fear of lockin or wasted effort
<cperey> Thanks for the link DanBri!! very confirming
<danbri> biz case of being able to accept open data formats is fairly no-brainer; biz case of unlocking user data is tougher ...
<cperey> of my suspicions
<hhalpin> It would be nice if these use-cases found their way into the use-case stories on the wiki - anyone up for that?
bblfish: if social networks want
to start selling services to companies, the companies
themselves need to be able to control their data
... and link to other sites that control their data
<cperey> there are about 100+ companies who are already in teh business of business social networks
<cperey> they are not interested in companies being able to export their data/leave
<bblfish> so my point was summarised here: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/business_model_for_open_distributed
<cperey> federated directories?
<hhalpin> adam: we've been talking mostly about use-cases involving marketing
<hhalpin> adam: but how about enterprise management
<hhalpin> adam: when we want to have our corporate social network reach out to others on another corporate social network
<hhalpin> adam: when we have some agreement
<cperey> do not have documented case (user story) covering how enterprises can benefit from data portability
<hhalpin> adam: but we have to respect privacy and security of this data.
<cperey> he's our scribe today!
<hhalpin> DKA: really likes adam's story
<jsalvachua> i have a real use case on this that we may have to implement, i will try to write it.
<hhalpin> Boeing's internal stuff is really neat!
<cperey> does Sun have similar story/use case?
<hhalpin> ACTION: adam to write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action17]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [on Adam Boyet - due 2009-07-15].
<bblfish> yes, sun has similar use cases
<cperey> emphasize CROSS enterprise
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to write up the social network data exchange story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action18]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Write up the social network data exchange story [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-15].
jsalvachua: have a story for two
companies to collaborate
... will try to expand on the use case
<bblfish> well it's not just cross enterprise, there is also enterprise-individual, enterprise-government, enterprise-university, inter university, and all possible combinations :-)
<hhalpin> ACTION: jsalvachua to write up business use-case with the company he's been working with. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action19]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jsalvachua
<danbri> ack me?
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to discuss "code visits data vs data visits code" opensocial pitch
danbri: wants to talk about distinction google made when rolling out OpenSocial
<hhalpin> tinkster - want to write up the marketing use-case for the use-case document?
<tinkster> hhalpin: as in this? "Business case: if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue."
danbri: prior to those apis, a lot of people thought about letting the data go .... google said what about the data staying where it is such that a widget stays where the data is and runs in a controlled environment
<hhalpin> Yes, just add that to the use-case story wiki
danbri: from businesses perspective, its not just about freeing the data or keeping the data but a little bit of both
<tinkster> ACTION Toby to add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue.
<trackbot> Created ACTION-56 - Add user story along lines of... if you enable import of contacts from other sites, then it lowers the barrier to entry for new people signing up at your site, hence get more users, hence get more advertising revenue. [on Toby Inkster - due 2009-07-15].
<cperey> that's the question: why would you ever want to free up this data?
<petef> clap, clap
dandbri: there are 2 widget
platforms: w3c widget, other is OpenSocial
... there is a new one in the Apache space called wookie trying to bridge the two
<mischat> echo ....
<hhalpin> ACTION: danbri to write up widget business tory [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-swxg-minutes.html#action20]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Write up widget business tory [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-07-15].
<danbri> see http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200907.mbox/browser for wookie proposal - w3c widgets meet opensoccial widgets
hhalpin: any other talk about portability
<danbri> re widgets and biz, maybe i can mention - http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/introducing-joost-widgets-2007-talk-presentation
mischat: question about people contacting somebody at facebook regarding privacy
<cperey> Chris Kelly, Chief Privacy officer
mischat: might be able to poke a
contact there if have more information about what we would like
to ask of him
... to have more context when contacting him
<danbri> maybe an email Q&A is best for him, initially?
<cperey> that's what I would like (suggested)
<hhalpin> My feeling is that we want to have him to talk to us at some point, but we can probably only do that once so we need to have our questions ready :)
danbri: maybe a Q&A interaction as a good first step
hhalpin: any updates on the facebook privacy
cprey: don't have much more
detail other then articles shared
... some people on both sides of the privacy fence
<mischat> i dont know anything about it,
cprey: don't know enough about the policy part, leave that to the experts
dka: received some mix reaction when shared it internally
<caribou> it's about audience segregation, mainly
<PhilA2> +1 to DKA
dka: you do get much segregation even within the same country
<danbri> ( many privacy issues are highly counterintuitive - teenagers don't know about probability and de-anonymising data )
dka: in terms of what to ask privacy officer of facebook, bouncing some ideas from what came out of the privacy jungle discussion
<cperey> also some ideas from the C Petersen paper
dka: why are social networks de-empasizing privacy
<tinkster> Privacy/Policy Commons would really help here. Creative Commons makes licensing really easy to understand: you can do this, you can't do that. We need the same easy at-a-glance system for privacy.
<danbri> http://www.fcw.com/Articles/2009/02/19/GSA-survey.aspx looks relevant but i don't know those folks
<PhilA2> I spoke to one very influential person in the online safety world recently who felt that it would be human rights people, not children's advocates, who would kill LBS
hhalpin: do the portabilty group want to have a task force meeting regarding getting some of this together
jsalvachua: probably start later when the points are more clear
<hhalpin> Meeting adjourned