W3C

- DRAFT -

F2F Gent

09 Dec 2008

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Jean-Pierre, Werner, Daniel, Frank, Joakim, Wonsuk, Veronique, Raphael(onIRC), Tobias, Victor, Felix, Chris, Sam
Regrets
Chair
Daniel, Joakim, Felix.
Scribe
tobias, werner

Contents


<joakim> meeting F2F Gent

<Daniel> welcome media annotation WG and self introduction

<Daniel> Evain from EBU working for EBU, TV-anytime and metadata related technologies

<Daniel> Wonsuk from ETRI working for sematic web who is a co-editor of use case and req. document

<Daniel> Chris and Sam Univ of Gent, working for image annotation and metadata of sematic web

<joakim> Bailer from Johanneum inst

<joakim> media semantic incubtaor group

<Daniel> Tobias from Univ. of Innsbruk working for several research items.

<Daniel> Joamin from Ericsson. research fields are amlost multimedia. mostly working for metadata today

<Daniel> Felix at W3C team contact

<joakim> Felix will move to Pottsdam to teach at university

<joakim> Frank has a passed in AI, how to use AI for various applications

<Daniel> Frank Univ of Amasterdam

<joakim> Frank has been working with MPEG-7

<joakim> Victor arrived from Bareclona

<Daniel> number of f2f meetings depend on how much works to be done within WG. During this meeting, we will at least discuss the next f2f meeting data and place

<joakim> updated agenda to discuss the API today

XMP review

<joakim> scribe: tobias

<fsasaki> scribeNick: tobiasb

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/XMP

fsasaki: We start with a review of the Dublin Core schema

Discussion of dc:contributor: it is very general needs to be specialized

<joakim> Mediachain from MPEG-7 defines "roles"

<joakim> Do you want to point to refernce. The problem is according to Evain to find the most update role list

EBU also defined roles, TVAnytime too. The question is which role define we adhere to.

DC: Coverage is again a very general property; should be refined in more specialized field

pierre: we should at least refine it to spatial/temporal coverage

XMP in its Dublin Core Schema part only uses the basic Dublin Core basic terms

pierre: someone developed a specification how to write DC strings

fsasaki: we should try to use common and already defined properties as much as possible

fasaki: discussion about mapping schemas: highly complex even if you take the simple case of mapping the representation of person names in different standards

joakim: DC leaves room for interpretation as it is defined very general

fsaski: we can for example define an own creator-property with more specialized information.

pierre: Problem from Europeana is the demand to map back to Dublin Core which looses information
... on the on hand you have a very simple DC and on the other hand you have a very complex MPEG-7 standard. How do you bring them together?

fsasaki: we will have to arrange with the loss of information.

frank: you can point to locations how to get more information (available in MPEG-7 or any other format available)

fsaski: points out to examples from the API listing mappings for createDate

fsasaki: The group decided to put XMP in the center of the group and will discuss it very detailed.

wbailer: the api should abstract from the format behind and should return the same all the time.
... more detailed information should be optional

fsasaki: jumping to the ontology deliverable: Developers have to implement the mappings; another question which arises: when is an implementation conformant to our specification?

joakim: perhaps we need a test suite.

fsaski: we could maybe to think of specifying profiles with differing complexity

fsasaki: DC data, description, format, language, rights, subject, title: all yes
... XMP indentifier is qualified using a schema

wbailer: it should be open to support different identification schemes

fsasaki: future more complex mappings should be supported meaning that other parties should be able to extend the mapping specification.
... rating-yes but we should define it more detailed.

joakim: rating can mean anything; parental rating/subjective rating/etc.

wbailer: With MPEG-7 you can define rating schemes.

<scribe> ACTION: Felix to check XMP rating [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-43 - Check XMP rating [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].

pierre: worried about just having a container for rights information; because you can define very detailed schemas; or you can make it simple and point to external information

<raphael> Raphael: go through the spatial fragments specifications (image maps, MPEG-7, SVG)

victor: probably we should define a certificate field.
... for some use cases we need more complex rights schemes like ORDL or something else.

tobias: creative commons licesing schema defines basic terms which could be adopted

<wbailer> scribe werner

<wbailer> scribeNick wbailer

XMP review - Media Management schema

<VeroniqueM> I can call, yes, what is the number?

<fsasaki> scribe: wbailer

<VeroniqueM> ok!

veronique: xmp:derivedFrom useful for 3 level description (idea-realisations-instance)
... useful mainly for cultural heritage UC

felix: decide from UCs if needed

chris: same as dc:source?

<fsasaki> "Unique identifier of the work from which this resource was derived."

chris: xmp:derivedFrom is same kind of information but more specific than dc:source

felix: take both into account (xmp:derivedFrom related to dc:source)

xmpMM: history: no - comments?

frank: hook for user adaptation, should be included
... example: users generate media items, if system should provide support for creation, this could be derived from history of previously created item
... alternative is link to other kind of representation of this information

tobias: relevant in creation of e.g. 3D items (derivation of content, modifications, ...)

felix: reminds of conformance, there could be different levels of conformance (e.g. without history)
... include xmp:history for some UCs

<scribe> ACTION: frank to check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases [on Frank Nack - due 2008-12-16].

felix: xmpMM:Ingredients to be discussed with fragments WG

frank: same applied to derivedFrom

felix: in derivedFrom rather link to media item, with ingredients rather to fragment
... xmpMM:InstanceID related to history

joakim: important to have
... refers to content

xmpMM: ManagedFrom, Manager, ManageTo: no

xmp: MM:ManageUI: yes - comments?

jean-pierre: depends on type of application, professional or end user
... for content mgmt in professional information

chris: same as dc:description?

jean-pierre: no, description should not contain an identifier

xmpMM: OriginalDocumentID: yes

related to xmp:identifier?

felix: general issue with XMP properties: how do applications use them, which mappings could make sense?

jean-pierre: careful with trying to align with Adobe, focus should be what users need

felix: hope that Adobe joins WG

xmp: MMPantry, yes, related to 3 level

xmpMM: Versions: no - comments?

relation to xmp:history?

xmp review - Basic Job Ticket schema

joakim: actors from creation tool manufacturers, end user applications and users - different interests, users should define requirements

felix: users are important, all actors are needed to get solution implemented
... approach: start with simple working implementation, extend in future versions

xmp review - Paged-text schema

xmp review - Dynamic Media schema

agreed on excluded properties

joakim: some included properties related to dc properties (e.g album)
... make connection to dc, explain difference in the mapping
... xmpDM:engineer - exclude
... xmpDM:composer related to dc:creator
... xmpDM:duration related to dc extent

xmpDM: instrument, xmpDM:key, xmpDM:numberOfBeats -> dc:description

felix: look at how xmp fields are used in applications

joakim: sony ericsson is using xmp

<scribe> ACTION: joakim to look at how sony ericsson uses xmp [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-45 - Look at how sony ericsson uses xmp [on Joakim Söderberg - due 2008-12-16].

general approach of WG

frank: is ontology supporting api or to build applications on ontology
... use ontology for development of api, also design to be used by other people for app development

<VeroniqueM> I think that it would be useful to have the ontology as an "interlingua"

felix: maybe do not specify formal ontology, but just prose descriptions
... avoid discussions rdf vs xml
... keep door open for people to provide formal specification
... conformance: which is the normative part of the spec?
... choices: take into account mappings, implement api, rdf non-normative OR rdf normative, but different levels of conformance, including some without rdf
... cf r05: providing the ontology as a set of terms

joakim: good to have reference implementation
... also to demonstrate approach

felix: test suite required for everything that's normative
... tests and examples as soon as possible to make it easier for people to understand
... shows internationalisation tag set test suite as example

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/tests/

wonsuk: create table of all considered properties and mappings (if possible) to other standards

joakim: include in template

tobias: content description - more important than other media properties for end user

felix: more than covered by the xmp elements?

jean-pierre: internet tv: use search engine for content, work on ontology for av content
... users search eg by series, broadcast time
... many xml based metadata formats
... use semantic web to reach users

felix: gotuit - hq metadata for search etc

http://www.gotuit.com/about/pdf/CurrencyOfInternetVideo.pdf

joakim: manual annotation possible for professional content, but not for UGC

felix: 2 steps: ontology 1.0 (find content), ontology 2.0 for av content and services

<fsasaki> ONTOLOGY 1.0

<fsasaki> general mechanism to find content

<fsasaki> different levels of description should you bring back to content.

<fsasaki> Example: "I am looking for a program with title XYZ."

jean-pierre: current approach: 1 class, only properties

<fsasaki> ONTOLOGY 1.x, 2.0:

<fsasaki> ontology for audivisual content and services

<fsasaki> different levels of description should you bring back to content, work with sw technologies

<fsasaki> many specs in broadcasting world today in XML (TV Anytime, ...). How to provide interoperability?

rssagent, make logs public

presentation from chris

<fsasaki> chris presents PeCMan Metadata, metadata for managed personal content

<fsasaki> http://www.ibbt.be/en/project/pecman

<fsasaki> metadata standards like mpeg-7, dig35, EXIF, ... are mapped to the metadata model

<fsasaki> http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/

<fsasaki> mappings are OWL equivalence mappings

<fsasaki> http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V1.0/

<fsasaki> http://multimedialab.elis.ugent.be/users/gmartens/Ontologies/PecMan/V2.0/

<fsasaki> retrieval of metadata content based on queries

<fsasaki> result can be e.g. a dc:description

<fsasaki> a dc:description is mapped to ontology, so that metaaccess is possible

<fsasaki> relation to XMP - most of properties are the same

<fsasaki> ontology structuring is different because of use case of interontology linking, e.g. linking to person ontologies

<fsasaki> ACTION: Felix to bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-46 - Bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].

presentation from Tobias

<fsasaki> RICO ontology

<fsasaki> use case is also metadata retrieval

MXM review

<fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MXM

<fsasaki> victor presents MXM and we are discussing API format and relation between API and ontology

<fsasaki> idea is to have API specified not specific to e.g. java or c++, but have a general description which can be implemented in specific framework

<fsasaki> that allows for indiviual implementations to be specific in object and return type specification (e.g. Java) or not (e.g. javascript)

retrieving vs. setting of meta data

<fsasaki> we are considering how or if to implement setting of metadata information. Question: how can this be implemented? What are protocol-specific requirements? What is necessary to implement setting information in addition to just say "setPropteryXYZ" instead of "getPropertyXYZ"?

<fsasaki> issue of how to set data types

<fsasaki> e.g. set a string or a date data type

<fsasaki> issue how to get from information-lossy ontology to e.g. an adequate description in the target format

<fsasaki> ACTION: Werner and Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a "metamodel level" (or "ontology level") [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - And Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a \"metamodel level\" (or \"ontology level\") [on Werner Bailer - due 2008-12-16].

<victor> #waits

<vmalais> logout

joint meeting with fragments WG

<fsasaki> see http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediafrag-irc#T14-42-12 and after

<raphael> go to #mediafrag

<spark3> please switch this IRC channel to mediafrag for this joint session

<fsasaki> ACTION: Felix to send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - Send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-12-16].

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Felix to bother Eric so that he gives AI to Chris about the metadata model from IBBT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Felix to check XMP rating [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Felix to send pointer to media fragments WG for review of uc&req doc, when it is ready [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: frank to check if xmp:history is applicable for the current use cases [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: joakim to look at how sony ericsson uses xmp [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Werner and Frank to investiage existing approach for setting metadata on a "metamodel level" (or "ontology level") [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/12/09-mediaann-minutes.html#action05]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2008/12/09 16:02:39 $