See also: IRC log
<ChrisW> Scribe: MichaelKifer
<ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of Aug 19 telecon
<ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of Aug 19 telecon
<ChrisW> Scribe: Harold
Sandro: OWL-RL is a profile for
OWL coupled with rule engines.
... It may fit BLD or FLD.
<DaveReynolds> I would hope OWL-RL fits within Core
Chris: Can we ask them to publish such rule bases in RIF XML syntax.
Sandro: Yes. at some point.
Mike: Is it renamed from earlier name?
Sandro: Evocative of RuLes.
<sandro> yeah, more specifically: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#OWL_2_RL
<AxelPolleres> ... need to check the implications of Botris Motik's reply to me.
Chris: Axel keep looking at comments wrt DTB relationships.
<ChrisW> ACTION: axel to look at DTB comments in Peters message [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-568 - Look at DTB comments in Peters message [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-09-02].
<AdrianP> ok, thanks Sandro
Adrian: Have reformulated, interacting with Christian, the semantics of instantiate function.
Harold: Who is in which hotel?
<sandro> Holiday Inn Midtown at $306/night
Mike: NJ, $169
<sandro> Holiday Inn Midtown at $306/night 440 WEST 57TH ST 1-212-5818100
<AxelPolleres> Portland Square Hotel (47th street), sharing with jos... makes it cheaper.
Leora: Issue of more user
... Adrian has proposed improvements.
... We want to bring up this issue.
Chris: Current PS makes it difficult to talk about RIF.
<csma> Hear, hear!
Leora: It's plain hard. Extra
burdon on users.
... Would be good to have other syntax.
Leora: Maybe with preprocessor to map to current PS.
Chris: What us use is a bunch of shortcuts with if...do.. production rules.
<AxelPolleres> I had some comments on the shortcuts suggested for arithmetics and comparison... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0124.html not sure whether the mail was clear, but I can explain it.
Adrian: Currently Prolog symbol for "is implied by".
<AxelPolleres> What about triple syntax a la N3?
Chris: Also "->" is not a good symbol for slots.
Axel: Some examples use arithm shortcuts.
<GaryHallmark> what about colon instead of ->, e.g. ?o[k1:v1 k2:v2]
<AdrianP> you mean, e.g. ">" "<" "!=" "=" "<=" ">=" as in programming languages
<AdrianP> instead of e.g. External(pred:numeric-less-than(1 2))
<csma> Why not =, since we currently have only an equality accessor (for slots)?
<csma> as in object[property=value]?
Adrian: Parser can figure out distinctions via arg types (e.g. two numbers).
Axel: Makes sense.
Sandro: I'm highly dubious.
... It would be a half-way rule language.
... Either XML or real rule language.
... Run UC: Only XML
<AdrianP> the main intention of the abridged syntax is to make it easy to write down and read rules
<AxelPolleres> in xpath, etc you have '+','-', but type-checking of the operators is supposed to take place before it is chosen which add or subtract function is actually meant.
Sandro: Read UC: Use your own favorite syntax
Chris: Requires a tool.
Sandro: Yes. Need bootstrapping.
Christian: Two questions.
<AxelPolleres> ... same for comparisons, i.e., any xpath processor should be able to deal with +,-, >, <, etc. for various datatypes.
Christian: 1) What's purpose of non-abridged syntax if we have an abridged one.
<StellaMitchell> PS is normative, I think
<LeoraMorgenstern> Christian, the semantics have been defined in terms of the presentation syntax, no?
<LeoraMorgenstern> So it makes sense to keep that.
<LeoraMorgenstern> But you still want something that's easier to read and write.
Christian: 2) There is a case
where you need to translate/produce RIF doc with a specific
rule that is not in XML
... When you need to produce a rule set.
<DaveReynolds> Stella - the "mathematical english" is normative, the presentation syntax and it's EBNF is non-normative, the semantics actually refers to the mathematical English - at least that's how I understand it.
Chris: Not transl. test cases
now. But entailment test cases.
... Otherwise we would need whole suites of cases for each language.
Axel: Uneasy with +, -, *, / etc.
only for numbers.
... Other languages have such symbols also for other datatypes.
<StellaMitchell> dave, the spec just says "the presenation syntax is normative" (but not the ebnf)
<AdrianP> such abriviations are quite common in nearly all programming languages
Chris: Issue is if it's better than current PS.
Axel: Agree, but kind of half-way.
<DaveReynolds> Stella - yes, sorry.
<JeffP> still not clear why we need another syntax
Chris: Alternative would be to define a new syntax.
<LeoraMorgenstern> JeffP, it's because the current PS is really hard to read and write.
<LeoraMorgenstern> and we are afraid it will affect adoption of RIF.
<JeffP> LeoraMorgenstern, thanks - is PS going to be replaced by the new one?
Axel: Should we use the Abridged Syntax but mark it as not covering more than numerics.
<DaveReynolds> Leora - in that case it needs a formal definition, the current defn is ambiguous
<LeoraMorgenstern> Dave, I agree.
Chris: Will need to make status of Abridged Syntax more explict.
Leora: Discussed various more cases.
Leora: Quite comprehensive now.
<AxelPolleres> We should mention explicit that our abbreviations for comparison operators and arithmetic operators *only* apply to numeric datatypes, *as opposed to* the more generic use of these abbreviations in languages such as XPATH
Leora: Chaining strategy UC brought in by Axel.
Axel: Dual versions, behaving
different in (naive) forward and backward engines.
... Cannot just materialize.
Leora: It would help if people
make the "discussion" slot more explicit.
... Distinguish various cases.
... Overarching argument.
... Otherwise people can get lost.
<AdrianP> I would propose to group test cases to test suites which have a context
Chris: E.g., what Axel just described on the phone should be in the document.
<StellaMitchell> and maybe we can use seeAlso field to reference related test cases from test cases
Sandro: Description vs. Discussion, with linking.
Adrian: Concept of test suite. Once can refer to the other.
Gary: Axel's are also legal PRD, which is good.
Leora: Stella and I translated a number of UCs.
<StellaMitchell> gary: cases that apply to BLD and PRD could be of dialect CORE
Leora: Dave has a named-arg
... Next week more.
Chris: Let's go over eds note list.
<AdrianP> Other open issues of Test Cases are e.g. the set of properties which we have define or the translation from the WIKI version into a concrete XML syntax
Chris: All shortcuts should ultimately be in one place.
Axel: Section 2.2 should explain
... in abridged it would already be it.
Chris: Separate wiki page?
<csma> +1 for having the shortcuts and abridged syntax all in one place, and that is not DTB
Axel: No problem, but then remove it from all other places.
<AdrianP> yes, good idea
<ChrisW> ACTION: adrian to create page that documents abridged syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - adrian
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. agiurca, apaschke)
<AdrianP> it will make it easier for programmers
<ChrisW> ACTION: apaschke to create page that documents abridged syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-569 - Create page that documents abridged syntax [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-09-02].
Axel: Predicate that takes rdf:text and language range, matching eg all "en" tags.
Dave: In SPARQL there is also a lang matcher.
Axel: A bit awkward.
Chris: Can you extract lang. tag?
Axel: Yes, but not typical use case.
Dave: Fine. Alg the same, just
... Can lang tag be empty xs:string?
Axel: We agreed this should not cause any harm.
Chris: Does this change anything in the def of matching lang tag?
Axel: We could define it for only non-empty lang tags.
Dave: Same for func:lang(...)?
Axel: Dont see a problem.
Dave: Normally no need for
... How does this affact RDF Compatiblity?
Axel: We already have different
... treat plain literals same as those type with xs:string.
... which is different from RDF.
Dave: According to D-entailment
it is the same.
... But yours not.
Axel: Empty lang tags do not occur in RDF, so it doesnt matter.
Sandro: Syntax error in RDF.
Chris: OK. So in RDF?
Axel: Plain literals.
... So the rdf:text task force is looking into unifying them.
Sandro: No problem because rdf:text does not normally occur in RDF.
Dave/Sandro/Axel: More discussion about datatype system, performance issues, ...
Chris: Record as an issue and
... Dave you are not sure?
Dave: No formal objection, need to think more about it. Feels awkward, perhaps raise an error instead.
Sandro: Regarding impacts: More on OWL than on RIF in Jena.
<sandro> AxelPolleres, how were you dialed in....?
Dave: Consult with my group and come back if there is a concern.
Chris: Much more active PR need be done.
<sandro> see for contrast http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Publicity
<sandro> old version.... http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Outreach
Chris: Use it to record who sent
which msg where.
... What advertising has anyone done?
<DaveReynolds> Re rif:text and RDF compatibility - there isn't a problem. In the RDF spec there is the statement "The xml:lang="" form indicates the absence of a language identifier" which is therefore compatible with the proposed approach. Sorry to have diverted the discussion.
<AxelPolleres> I contacted some LP related lists... will add on the wiki
Chris: No one. We need to start
doing it NOW.
... Can we find Press Release?
<sandro> Press release: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item132
Adrian: Some LP lists.
Axel: Sent to Enrico, the editor of the LP Newsletter.
Axel: If we have a Press Release, we can bring it in faster, otherwise 3 months.
<AxelPolleres> I did the following:
<AxelPolleres> Dear all,
<AxelPolleres> I would like to draw your attention to the recent drafts published by
<AxelPolleres> the World Wide Web Consortium's Rule Interchange Format (RIF) working
<AxelPolleres> group, towards an interchange format for rules languages:
<AxelPolleres> The current specification is a collection of 6 documents published at
<AxelPolleres> the following URLs:
<AxelPolleres> 1. RIF Use Cases and Requirements
<AxelPolleres> 2. RIF Basic Logic Dialect
<AxelPolleres> 3. RIF Framework for Logic Dialects
<AxelPolleres> 4. RIF RDF and OWL Compatibility
<AxelPolleres> 5. RIF Production Rule Dialect
Sandro: You have to target your audience / your community's mailing list.
<AxelPolleres> 6. RIF Datatypes and Built-Ins 1.0
<AxelPolleres> The Working Group seeks public feedback and comments on these drafts on
<AxelPolleres> the following mailinglist at the following email-address:
<AxelPolleres> with best regards,
Christian: Not BCC but FWD.
Chris: We have to stress that BLD is in LC.
Dave: Main semweb lists.
... Jena Dev list, too
<DaveReynolds> I did publicize inside HP as well.
Gary: Send it to Oracle list and to Jess.
<AdrianP> yes there is RIF demo at the Orlando conference
<AdrianP> yes, can send it to the RuleML-2008 board
<sandro> my posting to firstname.lastname@example.org http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2008Aug/0002.html
<sandro> I'll send to email@example.com
<sandro> firstname.lastname@example.org done.
Harold: NRC and RR Board/Conf
Sandro: SWI Prolog list
Jeff: Rule-related projects
Mike: semweb list we covered already
<JeffP> Yuting, do you have any other suggestions?
Mike: DARPA projects
<StellaMitchell> no, no lists
<yuting> No idea at the moment, beside the MOST project partners
Sandro: Even if we don't get much feedback, we have to present evidence that we mailed it out widely.
<StellaMitchell> I'll try
<csma> I plan to send an announcement on the JavaRules list, the Business Rules community list, the various PRR lists, the MISMO BREW list
Adrian: XSB and JBoss.
Christian: see above. Yahoo Group.
<sandro> chris: odm, common-logic,
Chris: ODM, Common Logic.
Christian: Mark could mention it on his blog.
Chris: Other blogs. Sandro, Linked-Data community?
<ChrisW> scribe for next week: GaryHallmark
<yuting> I could also send it to the ai-and-web-in-china, a google group
<JeffP> thanks, bye
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/ language tags/ language range/ Succeeded: s/on Jena/on RIF in Jena/ Found Scribe: MichaelKifer Found Scribe: Harold Inferring ScribeNick: Harold Scribes: MichaelKifer, Harold Default Present: Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.631.833.aaaa, Sandro, MichaelKifer, +1.212.781.aabb, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, +0122427aacc, yuting, StuartTaylor, csma, +49.351.463.4.aadd, AdrianP, Harold, JeffP, +1.503.533.aaee, GaryHallmark Present: Mike_Dean ChrisW +1.631.833.aaaa Sandro MichaelKifer +1.212.781.aabb DaveReynolds LeoraMorgenstern StellaMitchell AxelPolleres +0122427aacc yuting StuartTaylor csma +49.351.463.4.aadd AdrianP Harold JeffP +1.503.533.aaee GaryHallmark Regrets: JosDeBruijn Hassan A�t-Kaci Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0127.html Got date from IRC log name: 26 Aug 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html People with action items: adrian apaschke axel[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]