See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Charlie
<Roger> I think Rafael is not coming, but anyway Thanks Charlie...
sure
he has allergies
runs into things, poor devil
but is cute
moving along...
please fill out summer questionnaire
link is in the agenda
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32219/formssummer08/
<nick> I'm going to be off for one week first or second week of august but not sure yet which week
July 16 most number away
should we cancel?
would need another chair since John is away too
poll: call on 16th?
-1
nick could chair july 16 if there's a call
could be enough people to have a useful discussion of modules
need work products to have useful conversation
conclusion: proceed with nick as chair for july 16
for july 23rd, need chair too
nick can do this one too
<Steven> only 6 have replied
John: Thanks!
good demo at the backplane call on ubiquity integration in dojo...do we want a repeat demo on july 2?
thomas or i can do this if there's interest
perhaps yugma would work on opera since webdialogs seems not to support it
firefox on mac or windows is ok
conclusion is to use webdialogs
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0032.html
Steven: enthusiastic response, content taking shape, nothing formal yet
W3C has expressed interest in some form of sponsorship
John: what's the anticipated size?
Steven: 250 "ish"
... last time XForms event in London, oversold 100 slots within
2 days, anticipate response will be good
John: similar experience at NY
emerging technologies group
... normally draw 50-75, we got 300 or so for XForms
... Just in NY State area
... who are likely attendees?
Steven: insurance and finance
industry last time had large turnouts, also local govts
... have contacted folks doing impls for govt, they would like
to demo
... seeing lots of XML takeup in govt sites in the UK, e.g.
RDFa
... also, French implementation of XForms in progress, also
expressed interest in coming. have asked for test suite for
1.1
... Concentre is the name of the impl
John: should connect with Keith...
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0024.html
Steven: working on it...in progress
John: most other 1.1 issues have
been worked on
... Nick...could you regen the action item list?
Nick: yup...had some work impacts
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0038.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0040.html
John: steven requested review from our group
Steven: we didn't get any LC
comments
... would like to at least point out folks have read it and are
ok
John: NIck posted a response, thumbs up
Nick: yes, a quick read...didn't find any issues
John: Steven, could you give us the overview pls?
<John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080526/
Steven: currently access key is
mixed with the markup itself
... Access creates an element for accessibility (or other
purposes, e.g. phone) separately in the document
... in principle could have different access methods for
different devices
... binds keys to roles as well as ids
... also for other event types as well, not just keys
John: first question, is I notice key="s" if user hits s this takes to that element?
Steven: might be alt-s or some
other escape key, depending on user agent
... can't override std bindings for user agent, and all access
points must be available even if there aren't key bindings
(e.g. menus)
Nick: can be overridden in user agent?
Steven: these are hints, user
agent has last word
... in the sense of user preferences
John: user-specified settings
override user agent defaults
... or author-specified settings
... what happens with conflicts?
... does the user get notification?
Steven: no notification, but all access points must be available in some way or another...
John: no advice on how to achieve that?
Steven: no normative requirement on that, no
John: any known practices?
Steven: yes, one is accessibility binding is different from the chrome binding to avoid clashes
John: another question, in addition to role, can target id
Steven: role is for group of elements marked with role, id is for one particular element
John: how should target id behave in xforms repeat?
Steven: good question
... for example, what about URLs ending with # and ID?
(how does this relate?)
John: coming from outside
document in, we'd use current index of each nested repeat
... i.e. we'd apply indices implicitly
Steven: so this is an xforms
semantics not access
... up to markup languages also where they put this element,
imagine it goes in head but not required
John: for xforms it matters where
the ID reference is coming from.
... does the actual keystroke behave as event dispatched to
access element?
... if you have access in repeat, which access would the event
go to?
... might be something we have to say in xforms, to pin down
these issues for us
... would this be worthwhile as LC feedback?
Steven: yes, but it's very xforms
specific
... same/similar problem in CSS
<nick> I always thought that the css selector matches all the repeated elements
John: if access inside repeat, are there other impacts?
Steven: pls send in this comment to let WG think about this
John: ok
<scribe> ACTION: John_Boyer to submit LC comments about access relating to behavior in XForms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-forms-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
<Steven> tracker, status?
<Steven> trackbut, status?
<Steven> trackbot, status?
John: Charlie already posted, is this satisfactory
Steven: yes, except that today as
a result of our call sent request for extra advice
... given forms has lots of implementors
... at what point should listeners be registered? what should
we say?
John: seems like early
registration for declared handlers is appropriate
... then as processor is starting, new repeats are created
which would then trigger their handlers
Steven: second part of the
question is should XML events markup be live?
... i.e. if the markup is changed somehow, should the
registration follow those changes?
... I could imagine this would cause problems...
John: it's not something we
support now, no
... we need action item for some of the implementors to comment
on this...
<nick> we neither, but it could be an interested features ;)
John: any vounteers?
Paul: this would be quite difficult for us as we're not in control of the DOM
Nick: chiba doesn't do this either
Steven: I'd be happy with a clear
"no"...
... if you're scripting the DOM then you can just set up the
listeners you want directly
Nick: there's a remove event listener in XML Events 2, right?
Steven: yes
Nick: but you can add it declaratively and then add by script
John: could it be re-added later on? if removed by script?
Steven: yes
... XML Events markup is for registering handlers at some point
early in document creation, then we're done
hmmm...it seemed to me that there was an interesting step toward more dynamic function in XML Events 2
John: if you add then remove a handler then persist, doesn't seem to be any record in the document?
Steven: right, this but is ok
John: can you declare a listener that is "off", i.e. declared but not connected?
Steven: no
... but you can create a handler and then at some future time
attach a listener
John: having a way to persist the current state of handlers and registrations is important
Nick: no worse than doing this in script
John: same problem i have with
switch states...
... current selected case of switch needs to hold across
serialization
NIck: always registered, just uses "if" to decide if it's active so it will also be serialized
John: profiles of XML Events 2
applied to archival document formats...might want to give this
guidance
... action item to roll this up?
Nick: i can do it
<scribe> ACTION: nick to respond to additional questions on XML Events 2 to XHMTL2 WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-forms-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-474 - Respond to additional questions on XML Events 2 to XHMTL2 WG [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2008-07-02].
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0097.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0053.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0052.html
Nick: gives overview...
John: i had assumed we'd use something like "default" attribute
Nick: we had also discussed "initialvalue" don't recall where we came out
John: aside from naming, other
issue (see 0097.html) in streamlined syntax but the way it
affects the canonical xform is to populate generated instance
data
... there's no MIP called default
... doesn't translate well to canonical xforms
Paul: do you mean in existing xforms?
John: yes, we're looking at 1.2
as both streamlined and also extensions to regular xforms
... those mods which are needed to support the streamlined
syntax
... e.g. the context attribute to get around ../ notation in
calculates
Nick: when new item is inserted, does it get a default value too?
John: yes
... also has implications on "row template"...see example in
0097.html
... prototype row is easy place to put defaults for repeats
Nick: what about when node
bindings change?
... can bind to empty nodes, should defaults be applied then or
stay empty?
John: my opinion is that default
was imposed at creation time rather than rewiring
... is default or initial value a feature of streamlined syntax
only, at doc init, or a feature in core xforms as part of live
running document?
seems like a big change for core xforms
<nick> rssagent, pointer?
<nick> rssagent, make pointer
John: question to the group is: anybody uncomfortable with initial value for 1.2? importing it from streamlined syntax. those in core xforms would have instances with pre-seeded values
Paul: do you mean in core xforms the default attribute would do nothing? or insert these values if empty?
John: the former, default would
not do anything
... helps in the interpretation of name attribute
... helps to generate the implied instance
... if you want defaults in core xforms then you'd do this by
writing out the starting instance explicitly
+1
Paul: i can see how it could be
used in core xforms in lazy author mode
... but i agree
John: we can revisit when we have
spec-ready text, but it seems like we should write this up for
now...need to decide on the attribute naming
... did we decide on "initial-value"?
... or "default"?
Paul: one issue with default, is if you delete data from this node and then submit it, would get reinitted before submission...
<nick> I updated http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Add_support_for_default_values_without_the_need_of_an_instance_element to refelct what we've said until now
Paul: just "initial"?
<nick> I have nothing against initial-value ...
John: or maybe "initialize" but
do we not like att names that are verbs, steven?
... as opposed to dashed values
... we do have "calculate"
... any objections to "initialize"?
... ok, let's use that
... does seem better than initial-value
readonly, constraint)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Feb/0077.html
John: xpath has rule that string
converts to boolean based on empty or not
... not the common sense expectation
... of the contents
... leads to lots of frustration
Nick: i see this is hard to
understand but see two problems in doing this
automatically
... first is if you're using an expression inside another one,
need to do this explicitly since we can only impact the
outermost expression
... so we're also no longer backwards compatible with 1.1, also
with other langs like xquery, xslt
... for nodeset to boolean
Paul: although i agree, not sure
if the standard meaning in xpath is what's expected
... expert authors will still have workarounds
Erik: in the 0077.html email i
wonder what is the idea of the implicit conversion, when does
this happen?
... in xslt 2.0, when adding attributes on variables, the value
is guaranteed to be of that type
... in xforms we don't assign with the type property an xpath
type...
... if we had the ability to assign the type to a value (not
only for boolean) then we could do automatic conversions when
using them
Nick: there is a conversion from
nodeset to boolean by using boolean function
... some authors make assumption that string with "false" as
values, this converts to false, not true
<nick> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-xquery-operators-20011220/#casting-boolean
<nick> switching to XPath 2.0 will fix our problem
Erik: should follow pattern from underlying w3c recommendations
John: problem is actually not
false, but boolean when converting nodeset with children
... how should we convert the nodeset for xforms?
Erik: not right that it doesn't
make sense (current semantics)
... clearly there are use cases for existence test
... rather than value test
John: seems like that's the edge case
Charlie: worries about baking too much "policy" into xforms -- maybe put this in streamlined syntax?
Paul: also not backwards compat.
John: possibly attack with
streamlined syntax
... add the appropriate conversion function in accessing the
implied instance
... seems similar to ../ problem
Erik: funny construct, lots of
magic
... hard to specify clearly
John: can say it always applies boolean-to-string but again maybe we do this in streamlined syntax
<John_Boyer> <input name="x" relevant="y"/>
<John_Boyer> convert to core XForms
<John_Boyer> relevant="boolean-from-string(y)"
<John_Boyer> boolean-from-string(true())
<John_Boyer> returns true
Erik: when would a user write relevant in streamlined?
John: that's what they're usually writing
<John_Boyer> <output name="LineTotal" calculate="Price * Quantity"/>
<John_Boyer> or
<John_Boyer> relevant="$isChild"
<John_Boyer> relevant="isChild"
Erik: in this case, perhaps the
typing of the node goes further
... we don't use the type in xpath expressions
... we could do the right conversions given this type knowledge
in either streamlined or core xforms syntax
Paul: that doesn't sound very streamlined, form author has to know about types
Nick: but it's automatic
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/inick/nick/ Succeeded: s/out/our/ Succeeded: s/diffferent/different/ Succeeded: s/remove/add/ Succeeded: s/move/more/ Succeeded: s/this/but/ Succeeded: s/and then delete/and then submit/ Succeeded: s/(relevant,/(relevant, readonly, constraint)/ Succeeded: s/had/hard/ Found Scribe: Charlie Inferring ScribeNick: Charlie Default Present: Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Charlie, +1.919.254.aaaa, +03491211aabb, wellsk, ebruchez, John_Boyer, prb, Roger, Steven Present: Nick_van_den_Bleeken Charlie +1.919.254.aaaa +03491211aabb wellsk ebruchez John_Boyer prb Roger Steven Regrets: Uli Leigh Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0063.html Got date from IRC log name: 25 Jun 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-forms-minutes.html People with action items: john_boyer nick WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]