See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: JR
<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/09-ua-minutes.html
KF: Wanted to talk about it before the wiki
JA: Talked about some of it last
week
... Was an interesting discussion.
KF: Submission:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0054.html
... COnditional content refers to "can't show image so I'll
show alt"
... But there are other guidelines about making sure keyboard
accessibility is always available
... So at the end of the day if content author has mouse
hovering text, what should the UA do?
KF: I don't know
JA: THis has been a
theme...
... UA's don't give titles from keyboard, etc.
KF: So maybe there's nothing we can do - just proposing new way of thinking about cond. content
CL: Some of this info can be discovered
KF: SO do we want a rewuirment
JA: I see this rendering cond.
content tied in with Peter's stuff - ability to toggle display
of things...
... What happens when things turned off...
... So 3.3 is that things can be toggled...
... 2.3 is what to do if off
CL: User should be blae to config
what they see and don't see.
... In HPR there was prefs re: titlle of abbr
KF: HPR plus other assistive techs adding more and more of these options
JA: But screen readers see things diff
CL: OK but if mainstream browsers don't show things, developers less likely to put them in
KF: Seems like 2.3 Render Cond
needs more...maybe techniques...needs to be strengthened
... Maybe I have to come back with a proposal
JA: Right and it's really confusing
JR: Second that
CL: ALso title alt discrepancy
comes u[
... Don't think we can be so specific about it in future
KF: Maybe a bit more detailed
CL: Of course you should get any alternative content
KF: Sounds like group agress change is needed
<scribe> ACTION: KF to Bring back a proposal to rework 2.3 Render Cond. Content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action01]
KF: Other question from
email...
... timing-independent actions guideline...
... When Charles CHen was here...
... Seemed like it had to be content author, rather than UA
dealing with that.
JA: Hard to set live region
specific controls
... e.g. titles not required for live regions (i.e. divs,
spans)
CL: Really hard to know that title is even on a control
JA: Originally time indep
interaction more to do with auto refresh and some for security
things...
... But has just gotten much more complicated with AJAX
KF: Shouldn't this talk about
conditional content
... If the view you are used to has this text, you should be
able to search it.
JA: Can JAWS search for alt text?\
KF: Yes it can, it has a separate
search
... Searches its own text view
... Prob comes up when UA search is used
... Highlighting for searched word would not be detected
CL: Right - so text views are quite different than what UA may be showing
All: Group agrees that yes cond. content should be searched.
JA: Just concerned about user without AT
CL: Happens when text is searched
but CSS is hiding it
... But aren't displayed
JA: So do we need to define behaviour
CL: Well even if hidden it's
still found
... Clarification - meant text is offscreen, not invisible
JA: So is there a configuration for this we could ask for...
CL: Maybe status line message?
JA: Live region implications?
JR: Would it find as well if a layer is under a layer?
PP: Firefox Find won't find display:none
CL: Descibes example of access
keys shown off the visible screen
... This is happening because the base UAs don't put up list of
access keys...browser does
KF: I could try and come up with
some more proposals
... Cond. Content needs to include how to display, how to
interact with and how to find etc.
... My goal is to get more actionable things to the list or
wiki by next meeting
JA: Thanks Kelly
... ANy other groups we could write to...
... Reminds me about JAWS getting to CSS menu...but showed more
than just what was going on
KF: Window eyes in some scenarios will show all hiddent content
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0060.html
KF: lloks ok
JA: Need definition of chrome...
JR: Got it from Barry at IBM
CL: It is is IBM-ese
KF: MS uses it
<scribe> ACTION: JR to Make Glossary section in Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html#action02]
CL: Put in link to real one, but only changed things in wiki
JA: Kelly, this might inform what
you do in conditional content
... Placeholder is a type of conditional content
JA: Sent out my proposal
... Question about configuring...
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0047.html
CL,JA: Can only set by OS
JA: Would be good if tooltip
affected by font size changer in browser
... What about colour
CL: But rendered by OS
... UAs could make their own tooltips
... But do we want that
JR: I made them larger, but can you change colour?
CL: Yes - in WindowsXP - Display
Properties...Advanced
... IN HPR we added that dialog to the app
... You can call of those from the User Agent
JA: OK so don't have to dig for
it.
... So is that a technique?
CL: Hard to make normative maybve
JA: So tech under?
CL: Maybe its a usability issue rather than compliance
JA: We will pick this up later
<AllanJ> JR: if user asks for extra large fonts in the browser, should make a call to OS to also change tooltip setting, but then applies to OS
<AllanJ> CL: gets confusing for the user
CL: And complicated by mult. browser windows etc
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: JR Inferring ScribeNick: JR Default Present: Jim_Allan, kford, JR, pparente, cklaws Present: Jim_Allan kford JR pparente cklaws Regrets: Gregory Rosmaita Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JulSep/0061.html Got date from IRC log name: 16 Aug 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-ua-minutes.html People with action items: jr kf WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]